collapse

* Resources


UDM 4

* 2020-2021 SOTG Tally


2020-21 Season SoG Tally
Cain3
Carton3
Garcia3
Lewis2
John1
McEwen1

'19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: The long cold summer

Marquette
49
Marquette

Madness

Date/Time: Oct 15, 2021, 6:00pm?
TV: NA
Schedule for 2019-20
Georgetown
68

Author Topic: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel  (Read 84295 times)

Silkk the Shaka

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5187
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1350 on: April 10, 2021, 02:53:08 PM »

Spaniel with a Short Tail

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2444
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1351 on: April 10, 2021, 02:57:27 PM »
Who then changed teams!?!


MUDPT

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1352 on: April 10, 2021, 07:09:54 PM »

Uhhh, no. Wrong. Incorrect. No go. Denied.
It was actually 19 seconds left when Bailey fouled, but the shot clock was turned off. Tie game, Baldwin went to the line and split a pair. Howard missed a potential game-winning three, MU fouled Baldwin again with 8 seconds left (that was the under 10 seconds, but correct to give foul) and he put Butler up 3, then McEwen hit the game winner at the buzzer.

Not that it matters much, it was a dumb decision regardless, but clearly a mistake on Wojo's part because he didn't know the score.
In the words of John McEnroe, you cannot be serious.

Check out the charts here:  https://kenpom.com/blog/the-guide-to-fouling-when-leading-or-tied/ 

Marquette had a 28% chance of winning the game before it started.  It was the 8th team foul (1 and 1), so you generally foul an under 70% FT shooter with the game tied and the shot clock off.  Butler had Baldwin, Tucker, and McDermott on the floor not to foul.  Baddely and Nze were also on the floor to foul. 

I tried to plug in the situations to Barttorvik's win probability calculator, but it doesn't take in to account who has the ball.  Interestingly, Marquette has a better chance of winning the game down 69-68 then with the game tied at 68, if you look at the Win Probability Chart on kenpom.  Jordan Sperber (who some on here want as an assistant coach) had Todd Golden on his podcast, a couple of weeks after this game and both mentioned it was the right strategy.

Wojo had no idea what he was doing in this situation.  But there will come a time in the next couple of seasons, where the game will be tied or MU will be up 2 late and there should be strategies where bad free throw shooters are identified on the other team.  These guys should be fouled.  Wojo never took the time to look at these things to squeeze out every extra advantage. 

Fluffy Blue Monster

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5703
  • Send it in...medium-sized fella!!
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1353 on: April 10, 2021, 07:29:35 PM »
Check out the charts here:  https://kenpom.com/blog/the-guide-to-fouling-when-leading-or-tied/ 

Marquette had a 28% chance of winning the game before it started.  It was the 8th team foul (1 and 1), so you generally foul an under 70% FT shooter with the game tied and the shot clock off. 

I have never seen someone intentionally foul a player in that situation. Unless they forget the score.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

panda

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1051
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1354 on: April 10, 2021, 07:35:40 PM »
Check out the charts here:  https://kenpom.com/blog/the-guide-to-fouling-when-leading-or-tied/ 

Marquette had a 28% chance of winning the game before it started.  It was the 8th team foul (1 and 1), so you generally foul an under 70% FT shooter with the game tied and the shot clock off.  Butler had Baldwin, Tucker, and McDermott on the floor not to foul.  Baddely and Nze were also on the floor to foul. 

I tried to plug in the situations to Barttorvik's win probability calculator, but it doesn't take in to account who has the ball.  Interestingly, Marquette has a better chance of winning the game down 69-68 then with the game tied at 68, if you look at the Win Probability Chart on kenpom.  Jordan Sperber (who some on here want as an assistant coach) had Todd Golden on his podcast, a couple of weeks after this game and both mentioned it was the right strategy.

Wojo had no idea what he was doing in this situation.  But there will come a time in the next couple of seasons, where the game will be tied or MU will be up 2 late and there should be strategies where bad free throw shooters are identified on the other team.  These guys should be fouled.  Wojo never took the time to look at these things to squeeze out every extra advantage.

When has anyone else ever intentionally fouled in a tie game last possession situation?

panda

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1051
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1355 on: April 10, 2021, 07:36:29 PM »
I have never seen someone intentionally foul a player in that situation. Unless they forget the score.

Exactly - Didn’t mean to repeat exactly what you said above, but the explanation from MUDPT triggered me ;-)

bilsu

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8064
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1356 on: April 10, 2021, 07:59:33 PM »
Check out the charts here:  https://kenpom.com/blog/the-guide-to-fouling-when-leading-or-tied/ 

Marquette had a 28% chance of winning the game before it started.  It was the 8th team foul (1 and 1), so you generally foul an under 70% FT shooter with the game tied and the shot clock off.  Butler had Baldwin, Tucker, and McDermott on the floor not to foul.  Baddely and Nze were also on the floor to foul. 

I tried to plug in the situations to Barttorvik's win probability calculator, but it doesn't take in to account who has the ball.  Interestingly, Marquette has a better chance of winning the game down 69-68 then with the game tied at 68, if you look at the Win Probability Chart on kenpom.  Jordan Sperber (who some on here want as an assistant coach) had Todd Golden on his podcast, a couple of weeks after this game and both mentioned it was the right strategy.

Wojo had no idea what he was doing in this situation.  But there will come a time in the next couple of seasons, where the game will be tied or MU will be up 2 late and there should be strategies where bad free throw shooters are identified on the other team.  These guys should be fouled.  Wojo never took the time to look at these things to squeeze out every extra advantage.
I am not saying we should of fouled, but I believe we would of lost if we let Butler take the last shot. The Butler player had just scored something like 19 straight points. We had no way of stopping him, if it went down to the last shot. On the flip side Markus missed the shot that would of put us up. I do not think Markus made a clutch game winning shot his whole career.

keefe

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8313
  • "Death From Above"
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1357 on: April 10, 2021, 08:00:27 PM »
Wojo loved this job, his players, & the university. I don't see why it's hard to understand why he'd still be coming to terms with everything & figuring out next steps in his overall life. He worked his arse off & the job consumed, very likely, 70, 80, 90+ hours/week for years.

Himself aside, he has a family that he moved across the country.

That he doesn't have a job 3 weeks later is not some kind of obvious sign of anything... Any of you guys ever wish you devoted more time to your kids? Would you have done so, perhaps, if you had less of a concern with money? ::)

I think we should all hang our heads in shame for mocking a dude who by all accounts is simply not very bright.

Criticizing a guy who was paid millions of dollars to coach basketball for being both stupid and incompetent is inexcusable. For the love of God, this poor man's lack of intelligence and improbable ineptitude should not be a source of humor to us.

We are better than this.     


Death on call

willie warrior

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8193
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1358 on: April 10, 2021, 09:06:11 PM »
I think we should all hang our heads in shame for mocking a dude who by all accounts is simply not very bright.

Criticizing a guy who was paid millions of dollars to coach basketball for being both stupid and incompetent is inexcusable. For the love of God, this poor man's lack of intelligence and improbable ineptitude should not be a source of humor to us.

We are better than this.     
Because after all, he learned all those over 15 plus years  on Ks knee. So he should be excused for his lack of performance because he only cashed in about 20 million zoidees while at MU


BM1090

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5068
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1359 on: April 10, 2021, 10:59:42 PM »
It was actually 19 seconds left when Bailey fouled, but the shot clock was turned off. Tie game, Baldwin went to the line and split a pair. Howard missed a potential game-winning three, MU fouled Baldwin again with 8 seconds left (that was the under 10 seconds, but correct to give foul) and he put Butler up 3, then McEwen hit the game winner at the buzzer.

Not that it matters much, it was a dumb decision regardless, but clearly a mistake on Wojo's part because he didn't know the score.

I actually dont mind the strategy of fouling there, especially if you are the lesser team. If you don't foul the best case is OT. If you foul you have a shot to win.

https://kenpom.com/blog/category/strategy/

But that wasn't the case in this scenario. Wojo clearly messed up and admitted it.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 11:03:29 PM by BM1090 »

keefe

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8313
  • "Death From Above"
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1360 on: April 11, 2021, 12:28:16 AM »

But that wasn't the case in this scenario. Wojo clearly messed up and admitted it.

Let's face it: Wojo stepped in a steaming pile. There is no denying BM.


Death on call

MUDPT

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1361 on: April 11, 2021, 06:40:42 AM »
When has anyone else ever intentionally fouled in a tie game last possession situation?

Click on the link.

panda

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1051
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1362 on: April 11, 2021, 09:08:31 AM »
Click on the link.

I did and I’m surprised you’re using that example as it explicitly says to foul a poor free throw shooter. What was Baldwin’s free throw percentage that season?

Also another question - How many coaches admit they screwed up in the post game interview after that situation? If he meant to do it, wouldn’t he come out and say it?

Also also - I have a very hard time believing the coach who ignored even the most obvious of the advanced stats would, just one time, buy into a strategy like that.

Fluffy Blue Monster

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5703
  • Send it in...medium-sized fella!!
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1363 on: April 11, 2021, 09:11:18 AM »
I did and I’m surprised you’re using that example as it explicitly says to foul a poor free throw shooter. What was Baldwin’s free throw percentage that season?

Also another question - How many coaches admit they screwed up in the post game interview after that situation? If he meant to do it, wouldn’t he come out and say it?

Also also - I have a very hard time believing the coach who ignored even the most obvious of the advanced stats would, just one time, buy into a strategy like that.


He never said that Wojo intentionally followed that strategy.  Just that it would be a good strategy to follow in certain circumstances.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 10873
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1364 on: April 11, 2021, 09:25:44 AM »
I actually dont mind the strategy of fouling there, especially if you are the lesser team. If you don't foul the best case is OT. If you foul you have a shot to win.

https://kenpom.com/blog/category/strategy/

But that wasn't the case in this scenario. Wojo clearly messed up and admitted it.

If you don’t foul the best case scenario is OT? How about a live ball TO that gives us the winning basket? An offensive foul that gives us the ball out of bounds with a chance to win in regulation? A tie up that gives us possession and a chance to win? A missed shot by them followed by an over the back foul that gives us a chance to win it at the free throw line? Etc., etc.

This was no “strategy” by Wojo. He wasn’t fouling some 40% FT shooter to put him in a one and one situation. He was giving their best player (and I think their best FT shooter) 2 FTs in a tie game with 10 seconds left - and he was doing it intentionally. The guy just didn’t know the freakin’ score.

Fluffy Blue Monster

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5703
  • Send it in...medium-sized fella!!
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1365 on: April 11, 2021, 09:33:52 AM »
If you don’t foul the best case scenario is OT? How about a live ball TO that gives us the winning basket? An offensive foul that gives us the ball out of bounds with a chance to win in regulation? A tie up that gives us possession and a chance to win? A missed shot by them followed by an over the back foul that gives us a chance to win it at the free throw line? Etc., etc.

This was no “strategy” by Wojo. He wasn’t fouling some 40% FT shooter to put him in a one and one situation. He was giving their best player (and I think their best FT shooter) 2 FTs in a tie game with 10 seconds left - and he was doing it intentionally. The guy just didn’t know the freakin’ score.


Oh FFS.  Everyone knows Wojo didn't do this intentionally.  No one things that Wojo was suddenly channeling advanced metrics.  Everyone knows he forgot the score.

That being said, the math does say that fouling in a one on one situation MAY make sense especially if one team is a huge underdog and five more minutes of basketball may be considered too much.  (For instance, if the underdog also has foul issues.)

But I think it just kind of goes against a coaches ethos.  You stand up and play defense and one of the things you mention in the first paragraph may actually happen.  Fouling there seems like you are throwing up a white flag an possibly sending the wrong message to your team.  "I know we have battled to a tie for forty minutes, but I don't think you're going to be able to defend here or win in overtime."

I can see the strategy be used in certain circumstances but it would be rare IMO.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

jesmu84

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5365
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1366 on: April 11, 2021, 09:35:46 AM »

Oh FFS.  Everyone knows Wojo didn't do this intentionally.  No one things that Wojo was suddenly channeling advanced metrics.  Everyone knows he forgot the score.

That being said, the math does say that fouling in a one on one situation MAY make sense especially if one team is a huge underdog and five more minutes of basketball may be considered too much.  (For instance, if the underdog also has foul issues.)

But I think it just kind of goes against a coaches ethos.  You stand up and play defense and one of the things you mention in the first paragraph may actually happen.  Fouling there seems like you are throwing up a white flag an possibly sending the wrong message to your team.  "I know we have battled to a tie for forty minutes, but I don't think you're going to be able to defend here or win in overtime."

I can see the strategy be used in certain circumstances but it would be rare IMO.

So, similar to the arguments about going on 4th down vs punting and your defense needs a stop

panda

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1051
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1367 on: April 11, 2021, 09:38:40 AM »

Oh FFS.  Everyone knows Wojo didn't do this intentionally.  No one things that Wojo was suddenly channeling advanced metrics.  Everyone knows he forgot the score.

That being said, the math does say that fouling in a one on one situation MAY make sense especially if one team is a huge underdog and five more minutes of basketball may be considered too much.  (For instance, if the underdog also has foul issues.)

But I think it just kind of goes against a coaches ethos.  You stand up and play defense and one of the things you mention in the first paragraph may actually happen.  Fouling there seems like you are throwing up a white flag an possibly sending the wrong message to your team.  "I know we have battled to a tie for forty minutes, but I don't think you're going to be able to defend here or win in overtime."

I can see the strategy be used in certain circumstances but it would be rare IMO.

This is the bizzaro world discussion of fouling up 3.

Play defense unless there’s like 20 seconds or more left on the clock and a really, really bad FT shooter on the floor you can foul.

MikeDeanesDarkGlasses

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1510
  • "Seat belts On! We're Going For A Ride!"
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1368 on: April 11, 2021, 11:27:06 AM »
This is the bizzaro world discussion of fouling up 3.

Play defense unless there’s like 20 seconds or more left on the clock and a really, really bad FT shooter on the floor you can foul.

Or just don't let one of the worst offensive teams in the Big East light you up running the same play over and over.  Double teaming should have been the priority since Butler had no one else that presented much of a threat to score.  The lack of in game adjustments is hilarious.  Worst coach ever at MU.  Wojo couldn't get an X and an O out of an Ox. 

keefe

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8313
  • "Death From Above"
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1369 on: April 11, 2021, 11:35:50 AM »

Everyone knows Wojo didn't do this intentionally.  Everyone knows he forgot the score.


Fact is he did it because he lost Situational Awareness. And that is inexcusable.

Wojo is improbably incompetent which is why no relevant college program will consider him for a head coaching job.

Good riddance.



Death on call

MUDPT

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1370 on: April 11, 2021, 11:36:47 AM »
I did and I’m surprised you’re using that example as it explicitly says to foul a poor free throw shooter. What was Baldwin’s free throw percentage that season?

Also another question - How many coaches admit they screwed up in the post game interview after that situation? If he meant to do it, wouldn’t he come out and say it?

Also also - I have a very hard time believing the coach who ignored even the most obvious of the advanced stats would, just one time, buy into a strategy like that.

I said in two different posts that they fouled the wrong guy.

keefe

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8313
  • "Death From Above"
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1371 on: April 11, 2021, 11:40:31 AM »
I said in two different posts that they fouled the wrong guy.

Tactical: Wojo fouled the wrong guy

Strategic: Marquette hired the wrong guy


Death on call

shoothoops

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1397
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1372 on: April 12, 2021, 07:51:59 AM »
Kevin Ollie has been named Head Coach and Director of Player Development for OTE, Overtime Elite Basketball.

It's a new professional basketball league for 16-18 year olds. $100k guarantee pay plus health benefits, and academic tutoring. $100k tuition reimbursement if they do mot choose professional route. Revenue sharing, name, image, likeness, NFT's,.trading cards, jerseys etc..

Dan Porter is CEO. Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant are among the investors.

Brandon Williams is VP Head of Basketball Operationat.

VC Firm Andreesen and Horowitz are investors.

There will be approx. 40 person staff.

Uncle Rico

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2322
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1373 on: April 12, 2021, 07:56:06 AM »
Kevin Ollie has been named Head Coach and Director of Player Development for OTE, Overtime Elite Basketball.

It's a new professional basketball league for 16-18 year olds. $100k guarantee pay plus health benefits, and academic tutoring. $100k tuition reimbursement if they do mot choose professional route. Revenue sharing, name, image, likeness, NFT's,.trading cards, jerseys etc..

Dan Porter is CEO. Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant are among the investors.

Brandon Williams is VP Head of Basketball Operationat.

VC Firm Andreesen and Horowitz are investors.

There will be approx. 40 person staff.

Will be interested to see if other things like this pop up
Who is your boy?

Galway Eagle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8513
Re: OT: 2021 Coaching Carousel
« Reply #1374 on: April 12, 2021, 08:12:52 AM »
Kevin Ollie has been named Head Coach and Director of Player Development for OTE, Overtime Elite Basketball.

It's a new professional basketball league for 16-18 year olds. $100k guarantee pay plus health benefits, and academic tutoring. $100k tuition reimbursement if they do mot choose professional route. Revenue sharing, name, image, likeness, NFT's,.trading cards, jerseys etc..

Dan Porter is CEO. Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant are among the investors.

Brandon Williams is VP Head of Basketball Operationat.

VC Firm Andreesen and Horowitz are investors.

There will be approx. 40 person staff.

I do not know how they honestly expect this league to be profitable that sounds like a lot of overhead cost for a league that thinks professional teens will bring viewers.
Maigh Eo for Sam

 

feedback