We have a pretty good Team & Coach

[Dr. Blackheart]

How did the old Dr. Hook song go, "Two out of three aint bad."

You thinking of "Sloppy Seconds"? 

Btw, Shel Silverstein was Dr. Hook's lyricist.

[cheebs09]

Wojo is 115-81 in 6 full seasons with 2 NCAA appearances.

Deane was 100-55 in 5 seasons with 2 NCAA appearances and 1 NCAA win.

To be fair to Wojo, in all likelihood, that should be 3 NCAA bids.

[NCMUFan]

I guess I look at the players and coach as the Team.  Neither succeeds independently.  Without the coach, the players we had, have and will be getting would not materialize.  No Luke, no Henry, no Marcus, no Sam, no Kobe, no Dawson, no Justin, etc. etc..  I would have liked to see some victories in the NCAA tourney.  But, hey, he is far from a complete flop.  And still lots of potential to improve.  Maybe there were reasons Crean and Buzz jumped ship.  BEAST is a tough tough conference and they bought more time by jumping ship.  Now both of them are on their third schools (Buzz fourth if you include New Orleans).

[Shooter McGavin]

Just keep developing and winning this year and get in the tournament.  The pieces on this team are good enough to do that.  This is a well rounded team with its best basketball ahead of it.  If Wojo gets the job done and wins a tourney game or two he’ll start to change hearts and minds.  Don’t get in the tournament? (ughhhh!)

By the way Stevie Mitchel looks like a stud.  And love the potential of Aidoo.   

[shoothoops]

Wojo just oesn't have much yet to limit the coaching change discussion.

Competing for a Big East Title, an NCAA 2nd weekend, etc...if you look at some of his league peers, even just a few first round wins would have been enough to tone down the discussion. And of course, the lopsided NCAA losing scores have only increased the pressure for him.

There are many boxes to check. For example, he's checked the box of being competitive with some rivals such as Wisconsin. That's good. But he needs to check a few more boxes.

[Galway Eagle]

Wojo just oesn't have much yet to limit the coaching change discussion.

Competing for a Big East Title, an NCAA 2nd weekend, etc...if you look at some of his league peers, even just a few first round wins would have been enough to tone down the discussion. And of course, the lopsided NCAA losing scores have only increased the pressure for him.

There are many boxes to check. For example, he's checked the box of being competitive with some rivals such as Wisconsin. That's good. But he needs to check a few more boxes.

Technically he competed for a BE title. He just didn't win the one game needed to achieve it

[Shooter McGavin]

Wojo just oesn't have much yet to limit the coaching change discussion.

Competing for a Big East Title, an NCAA 2nd weekend, etc...if you look at some of his league peers, even just a few first round wins would have been enough to tone down the discussion. And of course, the lopsided NCAA losing scores have only increased the pressure for him.

There are many boxes to check. For example, he's checked the box of being competitive with some rivals such as Wisconsin. That's good. But he needs to check a few more boxes.

This is exactly right.

[avid1010]

Lol.

Context matters.

Not after 6 years...I'm amazed people are okay with making the NCAA every other year, no NCAA wins, and not competing at the top of the BEAST.

Comical to think MU would have hired Wojo if these are the results they knew they would get.

The only box he has checked is a clean program with great kids.  That means a lot to me...but the wins aren't there. 

[We R Final Four]

No Luke, no Henry, no Marcus, no Sam, no Kobe, no Dawson, no Justin, etc. etc.. 

Markus.
Koby.

[NCMUFan]

TY

[Galway Eagle]

I guess I look at the players and coach as the Team.  Neither succeeds independently.  Without the coach, the players we had, have and will be getting would not materialize.  no Sam,

He actually managed to achieve this anyway

[NCMUFan]

Managed to get three years from Sam.  The buzz in Sam's ear from his brother was too much.

[Galway Eagle]

Managed to get three years from Sam.  The buzz in Sam's ear from his brother was too much.

I was just being facetious

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Competing for a Big East Title, an NCAA 2nd weekend, etc...if you look at some of his league peers, even just a few first round wins would have been enough to tone down the discussion. And of course, the lopsided NCAA losing scores have only increased the pressure for him.

I was curious so I decided to look at his league peers in the current Big East:

LaVall Jordan: 3 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 2* NCAAT appearances (66.7%), 1-0 in first round, 0-1 round of 32

Greg McDermott: 7 seasons, 1 Regular Season Title (14.2%), 1 second place finish, 0 BET Titles, 4* NCAAT appearances (57.1%), 1-2 in first round, 0-1 round of 32

Dave Leitao: 5 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

Patrick Ewing: 3 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET Titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

Steve Wojciechowski: 6 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 1 second place finish, 0 BET Titles, 3* NCAAT appearances (50%), 0-2 in  first round
 
Ed Cooley: 7 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 1 BET title (16.7%), 6** NCAAT appearances (85.7%), 1-4 in first round, 0-1 in round of 32

Mike Anderson: 1 season, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 NCAAT appearances

Kevin Willard: 7 seasons, 1 regular season title (14.2%), 0 second place finishes, 1 BET title (16.2%), 5* NCAAT appearances (71.4%), 1-3 in first round, 0-1 in round of 32

Jay Wright: 7 seasons, 6 Regular Season Titles (85.7%), 1 second place finish, 4 BET Titles (66.7%), 7* NCAAT appearances (100%), 6-0 in first round, 2-4 round of 32, 2 national championships

Travis Steele: 2 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

*Was more than likely an NCAAT team in the COVID year
**Was more than likely an NCAAT team in the COVID year and one of their appearances was not as an at large but as the Big East autobid

Honestly, it looks like it is Jay Wright and everybody else. Not a single one of Wojo's non-Wright league peers have made the second weekend of the NCAAT. Cooley, Willard, and McDermott have all had a little more success than Wojo has. But the only one of them that has "competed for a Big East title" more than Wojo is McDermott with one shared regular season title (with Hall and Nova) and 1 second place finish. Willard has the one shared title and no second place finishes. Cooley has never finished in the top 2.

I don't necessarily disagree with your overall premise. of the 5 coaches that have been there 6 or more seasons, Wojo is clearly on the bottom in terms of success. As many have pointed out, not good enough to be happy, not bad enough to fire which of course invites the coaching change talk. I just don't believe  that his league peers other than Wright have really done much in terms of making the second weekend and competing for the BE title. What they have done is consistently earned bids and have each managed a single NCAAT victory.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Not after 6 years...I'm amazed people are okay with making the NCAA every other year, no NCAA wins, and not competing at the top of the BEAST.

We've made the NCAAT two years in a row and may make it three by the end of the season. Yes 3/6 makes it "every other year" but whether you agree or not, MU expected the first two years to be a rebuild.  As far as the people who matter are concerned, Wojo has made the tournament 3/4 of the seasons that matter and finished third or higher in 2/4 of those seasons. I'm sure they wish that they came with more postseason success but MU would take the last 4 seasons success, as long as they believe the coach would continue to improve the program. That's the part I'm not sure on.

[panda]

I was curious so I decided to look at his league peers in the current Big East:

LaVall Jordan: 3 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 2* NCAAT appearances (66.7%), 1-0 in first round, 0-1 round of 32

Greg McDermott: 7 seasons, 1 Regular Season Title (14.2%), 1 second place finish, 0 BET Titles, 4* NCAAT appearances (57.1%), 1-2 in first round, 0-1 round of 32

Dave Leitao: 5 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

Patrick Ewing: 3 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET Titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

Steve Wojciechowski: 6 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 1 second place finish, 0 BET Titles, 3* NCAAT appearances (50%), 0-2 in  first round
 
Ed Cooley: 7 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 1 BET title (16.7%), 6** NCAAT appearances (85.7%), 1-4 in first round, 0-1 in round of 32

Mike Anderson: 1 season, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 NCAAT appearances

Kevin Willard: 7 seasons, 1 regular season title (14.2%), 0 second place finishes, 1 BET title (16.2%), 5* NCAAT appearances (71.4%), 1-3 in first round, 0-1 in round of 32

Jay Wright: 7 seasons, 6 Regular Season Titles (85.7%), 1 second place finish, 4 BET Titles (66.7%), 7* NCAAT appearances (100%), 6-0 in first round, 2-4 round of 32, 2 national championships

Travis Steele: 2 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

*Was more than likely an NCAAT team in the COVID year
**Was more than likely an NCAAT team in the COVID year and one of their appearances was not as an at large but as the Big East autobid

Honestly, it looks like it is Jay Wright and everybody else. Not a single one of Wojo's non-Wright league peers have made the second weekend of the NCAAT. Cooley, Willard, and McDermott have all had a little more success than Wojo has. But the only one of them that has "competed for a Big East title" more than Wojo is McDermott with one shared regular season title (with Hall and Nova) and 1 second place finish. Willard has the one shared title and no second place finishes. Cooley has never finished in the top 2.

I don't necessarily disagree with your overall premise. of the 5 coaches that have been there 6 or more seasons, Wojo is clearly on the bottom in terms of success. As many have pointed out, not good enough to be happy, not bad enough to fire which of course invites the coaching change talk. I just don't believe  that his league peers other than Wright have really done much in terms of making the second weekend and competing for the BE title. What they have done is consistently earned bids and have each managed a single NCAAT victory.

This is the most frustrating part for me. Of all the talk of the vaunted BE, it’s been elite Nova a bunch of pretty good to decent teams and a two/three bad teams at the bottom.

None of the middle teams have been able to consistently separate themselves from the pack. There has been opportunity, but we haven’t been able to capitalize.

My comments certainly aren’t disparaging the quality of the conference. It’s a tough league and a grind of a league, but we (an no one else) have been able to take that next step.

[Galway Eagle]

We've made the NCAAT two years in a row and may make it three by the end of the season. Yes 3/6 makes it "every other year" but whether you agree or not, MU expected the first two years to be a rebuild.  As far as the people who matter are concerned, Wojo has made the tournament 3/4 of the seasons that matter and finished third or higher in 2/4 of those seasons. I'm sure they wish that they came with more postseason success but MU would take the last 4 seasons success, as long as they believe the coach would continue to improve the program. That's the part I'm not sure on.

Regarding yr 2. Do you think it would have been better if Wojo hadn't brought in Henry and had such an easy schedule that made people unrealistically get their hopes up? If it was another rough year like the prior would people say "well it's year two of a complete rebuild" but instead we had 20 wins and were a game from .500 but no postseason to show for it.

As far as last years tournament birth goes, I think it's not the fact that we would have made it so much as it's two years straight we would have limped into it.

[Its DJOver]

I was curious so I decided to look at his league peers in the current Big East:

LaVall Jordan: 3 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 2* NCAAT appearances (66.7%), 1-0 in first round, 0-1 round of 32

Greg McDermott: 7 seasons, 1 Regular Season Title (14.2%), 1 second place finish, 0 BET Titles, 4* NCAAT appearances (57.1%), 1-2 in first round, 0-1 round of 32

Dave Leitao: 5 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

Patrick Ewing: 3 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET Titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

Steve Wojciechowski: 6 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 1 second place finish, 0 BET Titles, 3* NCAAT appearances (50%), 0-2 in  first round
 
Ed Cooley: 7 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 1 BET title (16.7%), 6** NCAAT appearances (85.7%), 1-4 in first round, 0-1 in round of 32

Mike Anderson: 1 season, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 NCAAT appearances

Kevin Willard: 7 seasons, 1 regular season title (14.2%), 0 second place finishes, 1 BET title (16.2%), 5* NCAAT appearances (71.4%), 1-3 in first round, 0-1 in round of 32

Jay Wright: 7 seasons, 6 Regular Season Titles (85.7%), 1 second place finish, 4 BET Titles (66.7%), 7* NCAAT appearances (100%), 6-0 in first round, 2-4 round of 32, 2 national championships

Travis Steele: 2 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

*Was more than likely an NCAAT team in the COVID year
**Was more than likely an NCAAT team in the COVID year and one of their appearances was not as an at large but as the Big East autobid

Honestly, it looks like it is Jay Wright and everybody else. Not a single one of Wojo's non-Wright league peers have made the second weekend of the NCAAT. Cooley, Willard, and McDermott have all had a little more success than Wojo has. But the only one of them that has "competed for a Big East title" more than Wojo is McDermott with one shared regular season title (with Hall and Nova) and 1 second place finish. Willard has the one shared title and no second place finishes. Cooley has never finished in the top 2.

I don't necessarily disagree with your overall premise. of the 5 coaches that have been there 6 or more seasons, Wojo is clearly on the bottom in terms of success. As many have pointed out, not good enough to be happy, not bad enough to fire which of course invites the coaching change talk. I just don't believe  that his league peers other than Wright have really done much in terms of making the second weekend and competing for the BE title. What they have done is consistently earned bids and have each managed a single NCAAT victory.

Good stuff as usual TAMU.  I'd also like to point out that Jordan's one NCAAT win was in year 1 when he had 100% of Holtmann's roster.  Since then he has trended downwards since Holtmann's players have left, and I believe that this is first year with entirely his own roster.  It's been a weird year, but he still has a kenpom ranking in the 80s and an NET in the 120s.  The calls for heads to roll would be exponentially louder with the results of "one of his peers".

[shoothoops]

I was curious so I decided to look at his league peers in the current Big East:

LaVall Jordan: 3 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 2* NCAAT appearances (66.7%), 1-0 in first round, 0-1 round of 32

Greg McDermott: 7 seasons, 1 Regular Season Title (14.2%), 1 second place finish, 0 BET Titles, 4* NCAAT appearances (57.1%), 1-2 in first round, 0-1 round of 32

Dave Leitao: 5 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

Patrick Ewing: 3 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET Titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

Steve Wojciechowski: 6 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 1 second place finish, 0 BET Titles, 3* NCAAT appearances (50%), 0-2 in  first round
 
Ed Cooley: 7 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 1 BET title (16.7%), 6** NCAAT appearances (85.7%), 1-4 in first round, 0-1 in round of 32

Mike Anderson: 1 season, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 NCAAT appearances

Kevin Willard: 7 seasons, 1 regular season title (14.2%), 0 second place finishes, 1 BET title (16.2%), 5* NCAAT appearances (71.4%), 1-3 in first round, 0-1 in round of 32

Jay Wright: 7 seasons, 6 Regular Season Titles (85.7%), 1 second place finish, 4 BET Titles (66.7%), 7* NCAAT appearances (100%), 6-0 in first round, 2-4 round of 32, 2 national championships

Travis Steele: 2 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

*Was more than likely an NCAAT team in the COVID year
**Was more than likely an NCAAT team in the COVID year and one of their appearances was not as an at large but as the Big East autobid

Honestly, it looks like it is Jay Wright and everybody else. Not a single one of Wojo's non-Wright league peers have made the second weekend of the NCAAT. Cooley, Willard, and McDermott have all had a little more success than Wojo has. But the only one of them that has "competed for a Big East title" more than Wojo is McDermott with one shared regular season title (with Hall and Nova) and 1 second place finish. Willard has the one shared title and no second place finishes. Cooley has never finished in the top 2.

I don't necessarily disagree with your overall premise. of the 5 coaches that have been there 6 or more seasons, Wojo is clearly on the bottom in terms of success. As many have pointed out, not good enough to be happy, not bad enough to fire which of course invites the coaching change talk. I just don't believe  that his league peers other than Wright have really done much in terms of making the second weekend and competing for the BE title. What they have done is consistently earned bids and have each managed a single NCAAT victory.

This is why I posted what I posted. You say 2nd weekend multiple times. I would say simply win an NCAA game. Thus far, he has zero NCAA wins, and in the few he's coached, MU was blown out in those games. Winning just one NCAA game one season, and perhaps another NCAA game another season, would have toned down some of the coaching change discussion in my opinion. I was thinking of McDermott or Willard etc...when posting it.

Wojo is in the middle of the pack mix of Big East Results. Middle tier, whatever you want to call it.

A goal would be to improve from 5th/6th range to perhaps top 3 range more often, as well of course as improving NCAA results and some other things.

Chris Holtmann was hired by Ohio St. after a Sweet 16 run. He finished 2nd,4th, 2nd in the league, got out of first round a few other times in 3 seasons.

Chris Mack was hired by Louisville after an Elite 8 and Sweet 16 at X in the Big East. (He also had a few 2nd weekends in the A-10.) Mack won the league regular season title in his final season at X.

So, it is often interesting to see peer comparisons. There is also value in exploring expectations vs results, resources, timing, all kinds of things.

Wojo and some of the others mentioned have had some of those 10-8 or 9-9 teams. The 12-6 team was a bit of separation and I believe a 5 seed for MU.

These examples show what it has taken to get a pretty good Power 5 job.

For me, the long term MU goal is to be a consistent top 25 program, and all of the things that go along with that. Once getting there consistently, MU can increase expectations etc...if people wish.

So, yes it has mattered that MU has not won a game in the NCAA's a few times in different seasons. And yes it has mattered that the losses have been lopsided. If Wojo had made the Round of 32 a few times, some, not all of the Nojo types or whatever they are called would be a bit more quiet.

I don't expect Wojo to be Jay Wright. (It'd be nice of course) However I'd rather be headed Jay Wright's direction than saying, see we are similar to some of these other middle of the pack league coaches. At this point, while close, some of those middle tier coaches have an edge on Wojo with regardless to accomplishments, albeit small in some cases. Those need to be and can be addressed if Wojo wants to stick around long term in my opinion.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This is why I posted what I posted. You say 2nd weekend multiple times. I would say simply win an NCAA game. Thus far, he has zero NCAA wins, and in the few he's coached, MU was blown out in those games. Winning just one NCAA game one season, and perhaps another NCAA game another season, would have toned down some of the coaching change discussion in my opinion. I was thinking of McDermott or Willard etc...when posting it.

To be clear,  I said second weekend because you did. Honestly,  I may not have posted anything but when i saw second weekend my thought was "I don't think his league peers have made the second weekend,  have they?" So I went and looked out of curiosity.

But I agree with the majority of the rest of your post. Personally,  I think Wojo is behind his peers of McDermott,  Cooley,  and Willard... but I don't think he's that far behind and it's a lot earlier in his career. It's possible Wojo has hit his ceiling,  but I think there's a another level he will get to. Can he get to it at MU? We'll see

[jesmu84]

Not after 6 years...I'm amazed people are okay with making the NCAA every other year, no NCAA wins, and not competing at the top of the BEAST.

Comical to think MU would have hired Wojo if these are the results they knew they would get.

The only box he has checked is a clean program with great kids.  That means a lot to me...but the wins aren't there.

Yes it absolutely matters regardless of time period.

Context matters.

Strength of opponents/conference matters when all you're going to show is overall records.

[shoothoops]

To be clear,  I said second weekend because you did. Honestly,  I may not have posted anything but when i saw second weekend my thought was "I don't think his league peers have made the second weekend,  have they?" So I went and looked out of curiosity.

But I agree with the majority of the rest of your post. Personally,  I think Wojo is behind his peers of McDermott,  Cooley,  and Willard... but I don't think he's that far behind and it's a lot earlier in his career. It's possible Wojo has hit his ceiling,  but I think there's a another level he will get to. Can he get to it at MU? We'll see

My first post said, “if you look at some of his league peers, even just a few first round wins would have been enough to tone down the discussion.” You even quoted it. My point was and is that it is not Final Four or bust to take the heat off. Just win a game, because some of his peers have done that. It matters. I would agree some are not miles ahead of Wojo. But they are both middle of the pack, and slightly ahead of him. When you have zero, and they are lopsided, and years go by, frustration increases.

String together some top 3 finishes, string together a few 12-6 or better league seasons etc..

These are areas where Wojo can improve. The concern of course is that expectations may grow even larger with some moving forward because of his length of stay. By this I mean winning one NCAA game this year may not be enough to tone down some. A 2nd weekend would do more towards that because of the previous results over xyz number of years.

My expectations are more 12-6 or better league finishes, more top 3, win a Big East Title once in a while, get better NCAA results etc .....those are my Marquette program expectations, whether Wojo is the coach or anyone else.

I am not going to lower my expectation because I believe they are reasonable. Wojo appears to be headed for another middle of the pack league finish this season. So that would not be one of the top 3 12-6 type of seasons. So, if that is the case, it would be helpful for him to both make the NCAA’s, and to win 1 or perhaps 2 games.

[MU82]

I want Wojo's results to be closer to the only peer who really matters IMHO - Jay Wright - than to the handful whose results have been similar to his.

I am not confident Wojo is good enough to reach that level, though, so it's a little frustrating as a Marquette alum.

However, I also am extremely realistic. TAMU looked back many years and could not find more than 1 or 2 examples of a coach with Wojo's record being fired by a P6 school. So it's pretty obvious that Wojo will not be fired after this season (barring an incredible collapse or a scandal). Indeed, it's probably more likely that he'll get an extension.

So I can choose to be miserable or I can choose to be optimistic. I choose the latter. I choose to enjoy the wins.

Yes, I agonize over the losses, too, but they will not lead me to make threats I will never follow through on.

We Are Marquette!

[avid1010]

Yes it absolutely matters regardless of time period.

Context matters.

Strength of opponents/conference matters when all you're going to show is overall records.

My bad...thought the selection committee took that into consideration when awarding bids.  Way easier to make the tourney at-large by playing in mid major conferences???

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

My first post said, “if you look at some of his league peers, even just a few first round wins would have been enough to tone down the discussion.” You even quoted it.

You cut off the first half of the sentence

Competing for a Big East Title, an NCAA 2nd weekend, etc...if you look at some of his league peers, even just a few first round wins would have been enough to tone down the discussion.

You say that I read it wrong and that's fine. I see what you meant now. But I think you can understand why someone would interpret what you said as his league peers are competing for Big East titles and NCAA 2nd weekend.