MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: NCMUFan on January 21, 2021, 07:03:36 AM

Title: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: NCMUFan on January 21, 2021, 07:03:36 AM
I watched the end of the Creighton vs Providence game last night.
What a good feeling to know we beat both of these teams so far this year.
Left me with the impression we have a pretty good team and coach.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on January 21, 2021, 07:16:37 AM
Glad we started another topic on our coach.  We don't really talk about him enough here.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: NCMUFan on January 21, 2021, 07:43:56 AM
If I did something wrong, the Mods can pull the thread.
In any case Go Marquette!
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: 4everwarriors on January 21, 2021, 07:52:17 AM
Really? 'pends on yo expectations, hey?
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: avid1010 on January 21, 2021, 07:57:26 AM
I watched the end of the Creighton vs Providence game last night.
What a good feeling to know we beat both of these teams so far this year.
Left me with the impression we have a pretty good team and coach.
Would a similar thread stating all the crap teams we have lost to in Wojo's era have equal effect with you?
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: NCMUFan on January 21, 2021, 08:02:02 AM
I wouldn't be crying if there was another one of them.   ;D
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: BobWildLoyalist on January 21, 2021, 12:08:09 PM
I watched the end of the Creighton vs Providence game last night.
What a good feeling to know we beat both of these teams so far this year.
Left me with the impression we have a pretty good team and coach.

How hungover were you this morning?
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: tower912 on January 21, 2021, 12:09:57 PM
He posted this morning.    Might have been before his first cup of coffee, but it is unlikely he was still drunk.   
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: BobWildLoyalist on January 21, 2021, 12:17:19 PM
He could have posted from the Harp & Shamrock. By 7am CST they had been open for an hour.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: tower912 on January 21, 2021, 12:24:35 PM
Need to check the bar times in 'NC'
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: NCMUFan on January 21, 2021, 02:36:23 PM
Just in a good mood.  Sorry if you weren't. ;D
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: tower912 on January 21, 2021, 03:17:25 PM
You know all the cool kids say you aren't allowed to like Wojo.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: willie warrior on January 21, 2021, 04:37:58 PM
I wouldn't be crying if there was another one of them.   ;D
How about many?
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: NCMUFan on January 21, 2021, 04:54:42 PM
Whatever makes you happy Willie.  ;D
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 21, 2021, 05:06:02 PM
Whatever makes you happy Willie.  ;D

Willie has a Wardle Woody.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: bilsu on January 21, 2021, 05:41:52 PM
Willie has a Wardle Woody.
In my opinion a Wardle hire would be a repeat of Mike Dean. Anyone rooting for this is an idiot.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: tower912 on January 21, 2021, 07:49:11 PM
Not rooting for, but expecting.   
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Newsdreams on January 21, 2021, 07:51:05 PM
In my opinion a Wardle hire would be a repeat of Mike Dean. Anyone rooting for this is an idiot.
Spot on
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: avid1010 on January 21, 2021, 08:09:22 PM
I'm not convinced Wardle is the next guy...but I'm convinced he would have led us to just as many NCAA victories as Wojo has.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: bilsu on January 22, 2021, 01:05:31 AM
I'm not convinced Wardle is the next guy...but I'm convinced he would have led us to just as many NCAA victories as Wojo has.
He would not get as many bids,
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: avid1010 on January 22, 2021, 07:01:24 AM
He would not get as many bids,
Wojo is 115-81 in 6 full seasons with 2 NCAA appearances.

Deane was 100-55 in 5 seasons with 2 NCAA appearances and 1 NCAA win.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: jesmu84 on January 22, 2021, 07:31:19 AM
Wojo is 115-81 in 6 full seasons with 2 NCAA appearances.

Deane was 100-55 in 5 seasons with 2 NCAA appearances and 1 NCAA win.

Lol.

Context matters.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: dgies9156 on January 22, 2021, 07:38:03 AM
I watched the end of the Creighton vs Providence game last night.
What a good feeling to know we beat both of these teams so far this year.
Left me with the impression we have a pretty good team and coach.

How did the old Dr. Hook song go, "Two out of three aint bad."

We have two good wins. We have decent wins against Providence and St. John's. We have the makings of a good team.

The verdict is still out on our coach. Success is measured in wins and losses and whether we make hay in the post-season.

Perhaps Dr. Hook was right about Wojo ... "I want you... I need you... but there aint no way I'm ever gonna love you..."
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on January 22, 2021, 07:43:26 AM
How did the old Dr. Hook song go, "Two out of three aint bad."

Meat Loaf.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: mileskishnish72 on January 22, 2021, 07:43:34 AM
How did the old Dr. Hook song go, "Two out of three aint bad."

We have two good wins. We have decent wins against Providence and St. John's. We have the makings of a good team.

The verdict is still out on our coach. Success is measured in wins and losses and whether we make hay in the post-season.

Perhaps Dr. Hook was right about Wojo ... "I want you... I need you... but there aint no way I'm ever gonna love you..."

Meat Loaf, dgies.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 22, 2021, 08:04:05 AM
How did the old Dr. Hook song go, "Two out of three aint bad."

You thinking of "Sloppy Seconds"? 

Btw, Shel Silverstein was Dr. Hook's lyricist.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: cheebs09 on January 22, 2021, 08:32:30 AM
Wojo is 115-81 in 6 full seasons with 2 NCAA appearances.

Deane was 100-55 in 5 seasons with 2 NCAA appearances and 1 NCAA win.

To be fair to Wojo, in all likelihood, that should be 3 NCAA bids.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: NCMUFan on January 22, 2021, 08:37:31 AM
I guess I look at the players and coach as the Team.  Neither succeeds independently.  Without the coach, the players we had, have and will be getting would not materialize.  No Luke, no Henry, no Marcus, no Sam, no Kobe, no Dawson, no Justin, etc. etc..  I would have liked to see some victories in the NCAA tourney.  But, hey, he is far from a complete flop.  And still lots of potential to improve.  Maybe there were reasons Crean and Buzz jumped ship.  BEAST is a tough tough conference and they bought more time by jumping ship.  Now both of them are on their third schools (Buzz fourth if you include New Orleans).
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Shooter McGavin on January 22, 2021, 09:08:53 AM
Just keep developing and winning this year and get in the tournament.  The pieces on this team are good enough to do that.  This is a well rounded team with its best basketball ahead of it.  If Wojo gets the job done and wins a tourney game or two he’ll start to change hearts and minds.  Don’t get in the tournament? (ughhhh!)

By the way Stevie Mitchel looks like a stud.  And love the potential of Aidoo.   
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: shoothoops on January 22, 2021, 09:23:26 AM
Wojo just oesn't have much yet to limit the coaching change discussion.

Competing for a Big East Title, an NCAA 2nd weekend, etc...if you look at some of his league peers, even just a few first round wins would have been enough to tone down the discussion. And of course, the lopsided NCAA losing scores have only increased the pressure for him.

There are many boxes to check. For example, he's checked the box of being competitive with some rivals such as Wisconsin. That's good. But he needs to check a few more boxes.


Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 22, 2021, 09:34:09 AM
Wojo just oesn't have much yet to limit the coaching change discussion.

Competing for a Big East Title, an NCAA 2nd weekend, etc...if you look at some of his league peers, even just a few first round wins would have been enough to tone down the discussion. And of course, the lopsided NCAA losing scores have only increased the pressure for him.

There are many boxes to check. For example, he's checked the box of being competitive with some rivals such as Wisconsin. That's good. But he needs to check a few more boxes.

Technically he competed for a BE title. He just didn't win the one game needed to achieve it
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Shooter McGavin on January 22, 2021, 09:37:41 AM
Wojo just oesn't have much yet to limit the coaching change discussion.

Competing for a Big East Title, an NCAA 2nd weekend, etc...if you look at some of his league peers, even just a few first round wins would have been enough to tone down the discussion. And of course, the lopsided NCAA losing scores have only increased the pressure for him.

There are many boxes to check. For example, he's checked the box of being competitive with some rivals such as Wisconsin. That's good. But he needs to check a few more boxes.

This is exactly right.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: avid1010 on January 22, 2021, 10:02:18 AM
Lol.

Context matters.
Not after 6 years...I'm amazed people are okay with making the NCAA every other year, no NCAA wins, and not competing at the top of the BEAST.

Comical to think MU would have hired Wojo if these are the results they knew they would get.

The only box he has checked is a clean program with great kids.  That means a lot to me...but the wins aren't there. 
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: We R Final Four on January 22, 2021, 10:03:52 AM
No Luke, no Henry, no Marcus, no Sam, no Kobe, no Dawson, no Justin, etc. etc.. 
Markus.
Koby.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: NCMUFan on January 22, 2021, 10:09:22 AM
TY
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 22, 2021, 10:10:11 AM
I guess I look at the players and coach as the Team.  Neither succeeds independently.  Without the coach, the players we had, have and will be getting would not materialize.  no Sam,

He actually managed to achieve this anyway
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: NCMUFan on January 22, 2021, 10:12:51 AM
Managed to get three years from Sam.  The buzz in Sam's ear from his brother was too much.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 22, 2021, 10:14:10 AM
Managed to get three years from Sam.  The buzz in Sam's ear from his brother was too much.

I was just being facetious
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on January 22, 2021, 10:20:29 AM
Competing for a Big East Title, an NCAA 2nd weekend, etc...if you look at some of his league peers, even just a few first round wins would have been enough to tone down the discussion. And of course, the lopsided NCAA losing scores have only increased the pressure for him.

I was curious so I decided to look at his league peers in the current Big East:

LaVall Jordan: 3 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 2* NCAAT appearances (66.7%), 1-0 in first round, 0-1 round of 32

Greg McDermott: 7 seasons, 1 Regular Season Title (14.2%), 1 second place finish, 0 BET Titles, 4* NCAAT appearances (57.1%), 1-2 in first round, 0-1 round of 32

Dave Leitao: 5 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

Patrick Ewing: 3 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET Titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

Steve Wojciechowski: 6 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 1 second place finish, 0 BET Titles, 3* NCAAT appearances (50%), 0-2 in  first round
 
Ed Cooley: 7 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 1 BET title (16.7%), 6** NCAAT appearances (85.7%), 1-4 in first round, 0-1 in round of 32

Mike Anderson: 1 season, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 NCAAT appearances

Kevin Willard: 7 seasons, 1 regular season title (14.2%), 0 second place finishes, 1 BET title (16.2%), 5* NCAAT appearances (71.4%), 1-3 in first round, 0-1 in round of 32

Jay Wright: 7 seasons, 6 Regular Season Titles (85.7%), 1 second place finish, 4 BET Titles (66.7%), 7* NCAAT appearances (100%), 6-0 in first round, 2-4 round of 32, 2 national championships

Travis Steele: 2 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

*Was more than likely an NCAAT team in the COVID year
**Was more than likely an NCAAT team in the COVID year and one of their appearances was not as an at large but as the Big East autobid

Honestly, it looks like it is Jay Wright and everybody else. Not a single one of Wojo's non-Wright league peers have made the second weekend of the NCAAT. Cooley, Willard, and McDermott have all had a little more success than Wojo has. But the only one of them that has "competed for a Big East title" more than Wojo is McDermott with one shared regular season title (with Hall and Nova) and 1 second place finish. Willard has the one shared title and no second place finishes. Cooley has never finished in the top 2.

I don't necessarily disagree with your overall premise. of the 5 coaches that have been there 6 or more seasons, Wojo is clearly on the bottom in terms of success. As many have pointed out, not good enough to be happy, not bad enough to fire which of course invites the coaching change talk. I just don't believe  that his league peers other than Wright have really done much in terms of making the second weekend and competing for the BE title. What they have done is consistently earned bids and have each managed a single NCAAT victory.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on January 22, 2021, 10:27:15 AM
Not after 6 years...I'm amazed people are okay with making the NCAA every other year, no NCAA wins, and not competing at the top of the BEAST.

We've made the NCAAT two years in a row and may make it three by the end of the season. Yes 3/6 makes it "every other year" but whether you agree or not, MU expected the first two years to be a rebuild.  As far as the people who matter are concerned, Wojo has made the tournament 3/4 of the seasons that matter and finished third or higher in 2/4 of those seasons. I'm sure they wish that they came with more postseason success but MU would take the last 4 seasons success, as long as they believe the coach would continue to improve the program. That's the part I'm not sure on.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: panda on January 22, 2021, 10:29:40 AM
I was curious so I decided to look at his league peers in the current Big East:

LaVall Jordan: 3 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 2* NCAAT appearances (66.7%), 1-0 in first round, 0-1 round of 32

Greg McDermott: 7 seasons, 1 Regular Season Title (14.2%), 1 second place finish, 0 BET Titles, 4* NCAAT appearances (57.1%), 1-2 in first round, 0-1 round of 32

Dave Leitao: 5 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

Patrick Ewing: 3 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET Titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

Steve Wojciechowski: 6 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 1 second place finish, 0 BET Titles, 3* NCAAT appearances (50%), 0-2 in  first round
 
Ed Cooley: 7 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 1 BET title (16.7%), 6** NCAAT appearances (85.7%), 1-4 in first round, 0-1 in round of 32

Mike Anderson: 1 season, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 NCAAT appearances

Kevin Willard: 7 seasons, 1 regular season title (14.2%), 0 second place finishes, 1 BET title (16.2%), 5* NCAAT appearances (71.4%), 1-3 in first round, 0-1 in round of 32

Jay Wright: 7 seasons, 6 Regular Season Titles (85.7%), 1 second place finish, 4 BET Titles (66.7%), 7* NCAAT appearances (100%), 6-0 in first round, 2-4 round of 32, 2 national championships

Travis Steele: 2 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

*Was more than likely an NCAAT team in the COVID year
**Was more than likely an NCAAT team in the COVID year and one of their appearances was not as an at large but as the Big East autobid

Honestly, it looks like it is Jay Wright and everybody else. Not a single one of Wojo's non-Wright league peers have made the second weekend of the NCAAT. Cooley, Willard, and McDermott have all had a little more success than Wojo has. But the only one of them that has "competed for a Big East title" more than Wojo is McDermott with one shared regular season title (with Hall and Nova) and 1 second place finish. Willard has the one shared title and no second place finishes. Cooley has never finished in the top 2.

I don't necessarily disagree with your overall premise. of the 5 coaches that have been there 6 or more seasons, Wojo is clearly on the bottom in terms of success. As many have pointed out, not good enough to be happy, not bad enough to fire which of course invites the coaching change talk. I just don't believe  that his league peers other than Wright have really done much in terms of making the second weekend and competing for the BE title. What they have done is consistently earned bids and have each managed a single NCAAT victory.

This is the most frustrating part for me. Of all the talk of the vaunted BE, it’s been elite Nova a bunch of pretty good to decent teams and a two/three bad teams at the bottom.

None of the middle teams have been able to consistently separate themselves from the pack. There has been opportunity, but we haven’t been able to capitalize.

My comments certainly aren’t disparaging the quality of the conference. It’s a tough league and a grind of a league, but we (an no one else) have been able to take that next step.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 22, 2021, 10:33:13 AM
We've made the NCAAT two years in a row and may make it three by the end of the season. Yes 3/6 makes it "every other year" but whether you agree or not, MU expected the first two years to be a rebuild.  As far as the people who matter are concerned, Wojo has made the tournament 3/4 of the seasons that matter and finished third or higher in 2/4 of those seasons. I'm sure they wish that they came with more postseason success but MU would take the last 4 seasons success, as long as they believe the coach would continue to improve the program. That's the part I'm not sure on.

Regarding yr 2. Do you think it would have been better if Wojo hadn't brought in Henry and had such an easy schedule that made people unrealistically get their hopes up? If it was another rough year like the prior would people say "well it's year two of a complete rebuild" but instead we had 20 wins and were a game from .500 but no postseason to show for it.

As far as last years tournament birth goes, I think it's not the fact that we would have made it so much as it's two years straight we would have limped into it.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Its DJOver on January 22, 2021, 10:35:20 AM
I was curious so I decided to look at his league peers in the current Big East:

LaVall Jordan: 3 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 2* NCAAT appearances (66.7%), 1-0 in first round, 0-1 round of 32

Greg McDermott: 7 seasons, 1 Regular Season Title (14.2%), 1 second place finish, 0 BET Titles, 4* NCAAT appearances (57.1%), 1-2 in first round, 0-1 round of 32

Dave Leitao: 5 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

Patrick Ewing: 3 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET Titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

Steve Wojciechowski: 6 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 1 second place finish, 0 BET Titles, 3* NCAAT appearances (50%), 0-2 in  first round
 
Ed Cooley: 7 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 1 BET title (16.7%), 6** NCAAT appearances (85.7%), 1-4 in first round, 0-1 in round of 32

Mike Anderson: 1 season, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 NCAAT appearances

Kevin Willard: 7 seasons, 1 regular season title (14.2%), 0 second place finishes, 1 BET title (16.2%), 5* NCAAT appearances (71.4%), 1-3 in first round, 0-1 in round of 32

Jay Wright: 7 seasons, 6 Regular Season Titles (85.7%), 1 second place finish, 4 BET Titles (66.7%), 7* NCAAT appearances (100%), 6-0 in first round, 2-4 round of 32, 2 national championships

Travis Steele: 2 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

*Was more than likely an NCAAT team in the COVID year
**Was more than likely an NCAAT team in the COVID year and one of their appearances was not as an at large but as the Big East autobid

Honestly, it looks like it is Jay Wright and everybody else. Not a single one of Wojo's non-Wright league peers have made the second weekend of the NCAAT. Cooley, Willard, and McDermott have all had a little more success than Wojo has. But the only one of them that has "competed for a Big East title" more than Wojo is McDermott with one shared regular season title (with Hall and Nova) and 1 second place finish. Willard has the one shared title and no second place finishes. Cooley has never finished in the top 2.

I don't necessarily disagree with your overall premise. of the 5 coaches that have been there 6 or more seasons, Wojo is clearly on the bottom in terms of success. As many have pointed out, not good enough to be happy, not bad enough to fire which of course invites the coaching change talk. I just don't believe  that his league peers other than Wright have really done much in terms of making the second weekend and competing for the BE title. What they have done is consistently earned bids and have each managed a single NCAAT victory.

Good stuff as usual TAMU.  I'd also like to point out that Jordan's one NCAAT win was in year 1 when he had 100% of Holtmann's roster.  Since then he has trended downwards since Holtmann's players have left, and I believe that this is first year with entirely his own roster.  It's been a weird year, but he still has a kenpom ranking in the 80s and an NET in the 120s.  The calls for heads to roll would be exponentially louder with the results of "one of his peers".
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: shoothoops on January 22, 2021, 10:43:08 AM
I was curious so I decided to look at his league peers in the current Big East:

LaVall Jordan: 3 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 2* NCAAT appearances (66.7%), 1-0 in first round, 0-1 round of 32

Greg McDermott: 7 seasons, 1 Regular Season Title (14.2%), 1 second place finish, 0 BET Titles, 4* NCAAT appearances (57.1%), 1-2 in first round, 0-1 round of 32

Dave Leitao: 5 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

Patrick Ewing: 3 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET Titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

Steve Wojciechowski: 6 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 1 second place finish, 0 BET Titles, 3* NCAAT appearances (50%), 0-2 in  first round
 
Ed Cooley: 7 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 1 BET title (16.7%), 6** NCAAT appearances (85.7%), 1-4 in first round, 0-1 in round of 32

Mike Anderson: 1 season, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 NCAAT appearances

Kevin Willard: 7 seasons, 1 regular season title (14.2%), 0 second place finishes, 1 BET title (16.2%), 5* NCAAT appearances (71.4%), 1-3 in first round, 0-1 in round of 32

Jay Wright: 7 seasons, 6 Regular Season Titles (85.7%), 1 second place finish, 4 BET Titles (66.7%), 7* NCAAT appearances (100%), 6-0 in first round, 2-4 round of 32, 2 national championships

Travis Steele: 2 seasons, 0 regular season titles, 0 second place finishes, 0 BET titles, 0 NCAAT appearances

*Was more than likely an NCAAT team in the COVID year
**Was more than likely an NCAAT team in the COVID year and one of their appearances was not as an at large but as the Big East autobid

Honestly, it looks like it is Jay Wright and everybody else. Not a single one of Wojo's non-Wright league peers have made the second weekend of the NCAAT. Cooley, Willard, and McDermott have all had a little more success than Wojo has. But the only one of them that has "competed for a Big East title" more than Wojo is McDermott with one shared regular season title (with Hall and Nova) and 1 second place finish. Willard has the one shared title and no second place finishes. Cooley has never finished in the top 2.

I don't necessarily disagree with your overall premise. of the 5 coaches that have been there 6 or more seasons, Wojo is clearly on the bottom in terms of success. As many have pointed out, not good enough to be happy, not bad enough to fire which of course invites the coaching change talk. I just don't believe  that his league peers other than Wright have really done much in terms of making the second weekend and competing for the BE title. What they have done is consistently earned bids and have each managed a single NCAAT victory.

This is why I posted what I posted. You say 2nd weekend multiple times. I would say simply win an NCAA game. Thus far, he has zero NCAA wins, and in the few he's coached, MU was blown out in those games. Winning just one NCAA game one season, and perhaps another NCAA game another season, would have toned down some of the coaching change discussion in my opinion. I was thinking of McDermott or Willard etc...when posting it.

Wojo is in the middle of the pack mix of Big East Results. Middle tier, whatever you want to call it.

A goal would be to improve from 5th/6th range to perhaps top 3 range more often, as well of course as improving NCAA results and some other things.

Chris Holtmann was hired by Ohio St. after a Sweet 16 run. He finished 2nd,4th, 2nd in the league, got out of first round a few other times in 3 seasons.

Chris Mack was hired by Louisville after an Elite 8 and Sweet 16 at X in the Big East. (He also had a few 2nd weekends in the A-10.) Mack won the league regular season title in his final season at X.

So, it is often interesting to see peer comparisons. There is also value in exploring expectations vs results, resources, timing, all kinds of things.

Wojo and some of the others mentioned have had some of those 10-8 or 9-9 teams. The 12-6 team was a bit of separation and I believe a 5 seed for MU.

These examples show what it has taken to get a pretty good Power 5 job.

For me, the long term MU goal is to be a consistent top 25 program, and all of the things that go along with that. Once getting there consistently, MU can increase expectations etc...if people wish.

So, yes it has mattered that MU has not won a game in the NCAA's a few times in different seasons. And yes it has mattered that the losses have been lopsided. If Wojo had made the Round of 32 a few times, some, not all of the Nojo types or whatever they are called would be a bit more quiet.

I don't expect Wojo to be Jay Wright. (It'd be nice of course) However I'd rather be headed Jay Wright's direction than saying, see we are similar to some of these other middle of the pack league coaches. At this point, while close, some of those middle tier coaches have an edge on Wojo with regardless to accomplishments, albeit small in some cases. Those need to be and can be addressed if Wojo wants to stick around long term in my opinion.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on January 22, 2021, 11:44:22 AM
This is why I posted what I posted. You say 2nd weekend multiple times. I would say simply win an NCAA game. Thus far, he has zero NCAA wins, and in the few he's coached, MU was blown out in those games. Winning just one NCAA game one season, and perhaps another NCAA game another season, would have toned down some of the coaching change discussion in my opinion. I was thinking of McDermott or Willard etc...when posting it.

To be clear,  I said second weekend because you did. Honestly,  I may not have posted anything but when i saw second weekend my thought was "I don't think his league peers have made the second weekend,  have they?" So I went and looked out of curiosity.

But I agree with the majority of the rest of your post. Personally,  I think Wojo is behind his peers of McDermott,  Cooley,  and Willard... but I don't think he's that far behind and it's a lot earlier in his career. It's possible Wojo has hit his ceiling,  but I think there's a another level he will get to. Can he get to it at MU? We'll see
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: jesmu84 on January 22, 2021, 12:07:25 PM
Not after 6 years...I'm amazed people are okay with making the NCAA every other year, no NCAA wins, and not competing at the top of the BEAST.

Comical to think MU would have hired Wojo if these are the results they knew they would get.

The only box he has checked is a clean program with great kids.  That means a lot to me...but the wins aren't there.

Yes it absolutely matters regardless of time period.

Context matters.

Strength of opponents/conference matters when all you're going to show is overall records.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: shoothoops on January 22, 2021, 12:17:19 PM
To be clear,  I said second weekend because you did. Honestly,  I may not have posted anything but when i saw second weekend my thought was "I don't think his league peers have made the second weekend,  have they?" So I went and looked out of curiosity.

But I agree with the majority of the rest of your post. Personally,  I think Wojo is behind his peers of McDermott,  Cooley,  and Willard... but I don't think he's that far behind and it's a lot earlier in his career. It's possible Wojo has hit his ceiling,  but I think there's a another level he will get to. Can he get to it at MU? We'll see

My first post said, “if you look at some of his league peers, even just a few first round wins would have been enough to tone down the discussion.” You even quoted it. My point was and is that it is not Final Four or bust to take the heat off. Just win a game, because some of his peers have done that. It matters. I would agree some are not miles ahead of Wojo. But they are both middle of the pack, and slightly ahead of him. When you have zero, and they are lopsided, and years go by, frustration increases.

String together some top 3 finishes, string together a few 12-6 or better league seasons etc..

These are areas where Wojo can improve. The concern of course is that expectations may grow even larger with some moving forward because of his length of stay. By this I mean winning one NCAA game this year may not be enough to tone down some. A 2nd weekend would do more towards that because of the previous results over xyz number of years.

My expectations are more 12-6 or better league finishes, more top 3, win a Big East Title once in a while, get better NCAA results etc .....those are my Marquette program expectations, whether Wojo is the coach or anyone else.

I am not going to lower my expectation because I believe they are reasonable. Wojo appears to be headed for another middle of the pack league finish this season. So that would not be one of the top 3 12-6 type of seasons. So, if that is the case, it would be helpful for him to both make the NCAA’s, and to win 1 or perhaps 2 games.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: MU82 on January 22, 2021, 12:48:56 PM
I want Wojo's results to be closer to the only peer who really matters IMHO - Jay Wright - than to the handful whose results have been similar to his.

I am not confident Wojo is good enough to reach that level, though, so it's a little frustrating as a Marquette alum.

However, I also am extremely realistic. TAMU looked back many years and could not find more than 1 or 2 examples of a coach with Wojo's record being fired by a P6 school. So it's pretty obvious that Wojo will not be fired after this season (barring an incredible collapse or a scandal). Indeed, it's probably more likely that he'll get an extension.

So I can choose to be miserable or I can choose to be optimistic. I choose the latter. I choose to enjoy the wins.

Yes, I agonize over the losses, too, but they will not lead me to make threats I will never follow through on.

We Are Marquette!
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: avid1010 on January 22, 2021, 12:51:59 PM
Yes it absolutely matters regardless of time period.

Context matters.

Strength of opponents/conference matters when all you're going to show is overall records.
My bad...thought the selection committee took that into consideration when awarding bids.  Way easier to make the tourney at-large by playing in mid major conferences???
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on January 22, 2021, 01:01:27 PM
My first post said, “if you look at some of his league peers, even just a few first round wins would have been enough to tone down the discussion.” You even quoted it.

You cut off the first half of the sentence

Competing for a Big East Title, an NCAA 2nd weekend, etc...if you look at some of his league peers, even just a few first round wins would have been enough to tone down the discussion.

You say that I read it wrong and that's fine. I see what you meant now. But I think you can understand why someone would interpret what you said as his league peers are competing for Big East titles and NCAA 2nd weekend.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: shoothoops on January 22, 2021, 01:15:08 PM
Wojo just oesn't have much yet to limit the coaching change discussion.

Competing for a Big East Title, an NCAA 2nd weekend, etc...if you look at some of his league peers, even just a few first round wins would have been enough to tone down the discussion. And of course, the lopsided NCAA losing scores have only increased the pressure for him.

There are many boxes to check. For example, he's checked the box of being competitive with some rivals such as Wisconsin. That's good. But he needs to check a few more boxes.

This was my original post in the discussion. I am happy to clear up any confusion.

I said that Wojo hasn't accomplished enough yet to change the hot seat discussion. I then used examples of some things that would have changed that, such as NCAA 2nd weekend, competing for Big East Title, etc...

I then said that even a few different seasons of simply winning one first round NCAA game would have helped. I said this because some of his middle of the pack peers have that. And, some of those peers don't appear to be on the hot seat at their schools by comparison.

I could have structured the sentences and paragraphs better but it seems reasonably clear what I meant.

As time goes by, the expectations and pressure builds. Is one NCAA win enough to keep his job? Does it need to be a Big East Title or NCAA 2nd weekend? (I am aware of and I do understand the Pandemic will factor into decisions)
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: 4everwarriors on January 22, 2021, 01:15:55 PM
'pends on how y'all define pretty good, aina?
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on January 22, 2021, 01:23:25 PM
My expectations are more 12-6 or better league finishes, more top 3, win a Big East Title once in a while, get better NCAA results etc .....those are my Marquette program expectations, whether Wojo is the coach or anyone else.

I am not going to lower my expectation because I believe they are reasonable.

Your expectations are your expectations, but just because you believe them to be reasonable, doesn't make them reasonable.

Besides Villanova, no team has managed to string together multiple 12-6 seasons in the current iteration of the Big East. Only 4 non-Nova teams have managed to have 2 12-6 or better seasons in the past seven seasons. None have had 3 or more. Creighton has done it twice (13-14 and 19-20), Butler has done it twice (14-15, 16-17), X has done it twice 15-16, 17-18) and Seton Hall has done it twice (15-16, 19-20). Georgetown (14-15), Providence (19-20) and Marquette (18-19) have each done it once. DePaul and St. John's have never done it.

Only one non-Nova team has one the BE outright, Xavier (17-18). Seton Hall and Creighton were co-champions with Nova in 19-20.

Better NCAA success, I'm with you there.

For me, there is a difference between goals and expectations. Expectations are what we do now. Goals are about what we are building to. I absolutely agree that the above are reasonable goals that MU should aspire to and with the right coach will achieve. I don't think they are reasonable to expect at this point.

To be clear, Wojo hasn't met my expectations to this point even though they are lower than yours. He met them years 1-5 but year 6 was a disappointment. I'm waiting to see how this year goes before deciding if its a sign that Wojo hit his ceiling, or if it was just a bump in the road.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on January 22, 2021, 01:24:47 PM
This was my original post in the discussion. I am happy to clear up any confusion.

It's really not necessary. As I said

You say that I read it wrong and that's fine. I see what you meant now.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: shoothoops on January 22, 2021, 01:46:29 PM
Your expectations are your expectations, but just because you believe them to be reasonable, doesn't make them reasonable.

Besides Villanova, no team has managed to string together multiple 12-6 seasons in the current iteration of the Big East. Only 4 non-Nova teams have managed to have 2 12-6 or better seasons in the past seven seasons. None have had 3 or more. Creighton has done it twice (13-14 and 19-20), Butler has done it twice (14-15, 16-17), X has done it twice 15-16, 17-18) and Seton Hall has done it twice (15-16, 19-20). Georgetown (14-15), Providence (19-20) and Marquette (18-19) have each done it once. DePaul and St. John's have never done it.

Only one non-Nova team has one a BET outright, Xavier (17-18). Seton Hall and Creighton were co-champions with Nova in 19-20.

Better NCAA success, I'm with you there.

For me, there is a difference between goals and expectations. Expectations are what we do now. Goals are about what we are building to. I absolutely agree that the above are reasonable goals that MU should aspire to and with the right coach will achieve. I don't think they are reasonable to expect at this point.

To be clear, Wojo hasn't met my expectations to this point even though they are lower than yours. He met them years 1-5 but year 6 was a disappointment. I'm waiting to see how this year goes before deciding if its a sign that Wojo hit his ceiling, or if it was just a bump in the road.

So, including Villanova, FIVE Big East schools not named Marquette have had multiple 12-6 league finishes or better in the current Big East. How is that not reasonable? I would also like to see MU as a top tier or top third Big East program vs what they have been thus far under Wojo. It's reasonable to not want to be 5th/6th overall on average long term. It's certainly fine some of the time.

I do believe we agree on some things. And we are in compromise range of some other things.

Some coaches enter a program with immediate success, others take a few years to build. (Jay Wright made the NCAA's in his 4th season at Villanova, same for Coach K at Duke). It's fair to give a coach 3-5 years, often closer to five than three, and see what progress has been made toward annual expectations.

Wojo is in year seven. He's made the NCAA's 3 out of the past 4 seasons. (i count last year as an NCAA team). This season would be 4 out of 5, if they can make the NCAA's this season. That checks one of the many boxes for me. One of my many boxes is having MU as an "almost" annual NCAA team. I've already mentioned success v rival teams, etc...that checks another box.

As you mentioned with regard to 12-6 or better, Wojo has not been able to do that multiple times yet. Can't check that box yet. No NCAA wins, can't check that box yet. It's year seven, some people would like to see him checking off more boxes.

Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Shooter McGavin on January 22, 2021, 02:06:54 PM
'pends on how y'all define pretty good, aina?

Championships plural, aina?
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: BobWildLoyalist on January 22, 2021, 02:29:14 PM
Wojo is currently 55-61 lifetime in the BE. He's only had 2 seasons over .500 in 6 full years. Enough said.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: rocky_warrior on January 22, 2021, 02:39:05 PM
To be clear, Wojo hasn't met my expectations to this point even though they are lower than yours. He met them years 1-5 but year 6 was a disappointment. I'm waiting to see how this year goes before deciding if its a sign that Wojo hit his ceiling, or if it was just a bump in the road.

I'm not saying we need to allow a lot more years to judge :p, but I don't think this year will really provide clarity on Wojo's ceiling successor not...
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Shooter McGavin on January 22, 2021, 02:39:41 PM
Wojo is currently 55-61 lifetime in the BE. He's only had 2 seasons over .500 in 6 full years. Enough said.

That does sound bad when you say it out loud. 
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Galway Eagle on January 22, 2021, 02:41:40 PM
Wojo is currently 55-61 lifetime in the BE. He's only had 2 seasons over .500 in 6 full years. Enough said.

Not great. What's he if you takeaway his first year? Which I had thought was what most people reasonably did.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 22, 2021, 03:24:26 PM
Over the past 25 years, MU is ranked as the 31st best program in Pomeroy (aggregated).  The average season rank of MU teams is 50 when you average year by year.  With that we can rank our coaches RELATIVE to each other and each season based on past performance and expectations.

Wojo’s average season rank is 57 including this season to date...slightly below average and close to Crean’s average season rank of 53.

Deane was the basement at 69. Buzz was the ceiling at 30, 65% better than the average MU coach.

Wojo’s first two seasons were his two worst to the MU 25 year norm. The rest were pretty much at norm or norm+.

I think Tower or Fluffy have said this, but Wojo is Crean without Wade. Will he get there in the future with his recruiting is the promise, but right now he is what he thought he was.

Buzz is the outlier with five out of six seasons way above the MU average with his last season, with no Vander, McKay and not much Mayo, being slightly below average.

Things have changed with the program since Buzz, but Wojo is meeting expectations and he is the same as Crean.  Whether fans want the Buzz success as their expectation, it isn’t the MU average, right or wrong.  He does need some post-season runs though.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on January 22, 2021, 03:32:08 PM
I think Tower or Fluffy have said this, but Wojo is Crean without Wade. Will he get there in the future with his recruiting is the promise, but right now he is what he thought he was.


I think we both did, and I still think its fairly accurate.  I think Wojo is starting to fall below the trend line however.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: tower912 on January 22, 2021, 03:41:48 PM
Not really.  One tourney win in 8 years without Wade.  And BTW, I actually think of this as a criticism.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: shoothoops on January 22, 2021, 04:00:02 PM
Over the past 25 years, MU is ranked as the 31st best program in Pomeroy (aggregated).  The average season rank of MU teams is 50 when you average year by year.  With that we can rank our coaches RELATIVE to each other and each season based on past performance and expectations.

Wojo’s average season rank is 57 including this season to date...slightly below average and close to Crean’s average season rank of 53.

Deane was the basement at 69. Buzz was the ceiling at 30, 65% better than the average MU coach.

Wojo’s first two seasons were his two worst to the MU 25 year norm. The rest were pretty much at norm or norm+.

I think Tower or Fluffy have said this, but Wojo is Crean without Wade. Will he get there in the future with his recruiting is the promise, but right now he is what he thought he was.

Buzz is the outlier with five out of six seasons way above the MU average with his last season, with no Vander, McKay and not much Mayo, being slightly below average.

Things have changed with the program since Buzz, but Wojo is meeting expectations and he is the same as Crean.  Whether fans want the Buzz success as their expectation, it isn’t the MU average, right or wrong.  He does need some post-season runs though.

So, you are saying more Buzz, less Deane.

When you do what, ...also matters. Are we talking about the Old Gym or some of the more recent on and off campus facilities, etc? Budgets?

Is MU coming off of 3 of 4 NCAA 2nd weekends? Or is it when K.O. took over. Etc ..

What league and what version of that league are we discussing and so on...

Would Wojo have had 3 straight top five 5 finishes to start the old version of the Big East?

Marquette has made the Final Four in 1974, 1977, 2003. That's it. Seems like a big deal to accomplish that at MU. If Wojo is Crean, I'm looking forward to Wojo cutting down the nets at the Elite 8 Regional Final soon. I'd settle for Crean's final six years of results at Indiana which were 3 Sweet 16's and 2 Regular Season League Titles.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: panda on January 22, 2021, 04:02:50 PM
Not really.  One tourney win in 8 years without Wade.  And BTW, I actually think of this as a criticism.

Crean earned leeway with his final four birth which is totally reasonable. He finished 4th, 5th and 5th in the old BE which is extremely impressive. It was a very impressive rebuild after making a final four as a CUSA team and then making a huge jump to the old BE.

Crean's overall success speaks for itself. He put Marquette back on the map and Buzz took the next step. Wojo is doing his best do hang on. Hopefully the recruits keep coming in.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: dgies9156 on January 22, 2021, 05:02:14 PM
Meat Loaf, dgies.

Senility sets in. Mr. Loaf should never be forgotten.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 22, 2021, 05:07:25 PM
So, you are saying more Buzz, less Deane.

When you do what, ...also matters. Are we talking about the Old Gym or some of the more recent on and off campus facilities, etc? Budgets?

Is MU coming off of 3 of 4 NCAA 2nd weekends? Or is it when K.O. took over. Etc ..

What league and what version of that league are we discussing and so on...

Would Wojo have had 3 straight top five 5 finishes to start the old version of the Big East?

Marquette has made the Final Four in 1974, 1977, 2003. That's it. Seems like a big deal to accomplish that at MU. If Wojo is Crean, I'm looking forward to Wojo cutting down the nets at the Elite 8 Regional Final soon. I'd settle for Crean's final six years of results at Indiana which were 3 Sweet 16's and 2 Regular Season League Titles.

I feel using Pomeroy helps get around the conference affiliation question as teams are ranked against each other top to bottom. That helps to at least objectively put that unanswerable question aside, at least for me.

As the numbers indicate, Wojo is Crean without Wade.  Obviously, that is a big “IF” as Tower states (not a compliment per se) and as you feel as well (as do many of us here).

The knock on Crean is he was sawtoothed. The swings from good to below average, and him trying to renegotiate his contract in every good year. Wojo has been meh, slow and steady without the highs and just the rebuild lows.

In the stock market, the Street like the NBA draft, rewards potential. Buzz was the tech start-up with great returns, but you had to absorb the crash. Wojo is the sideways stock, hoping for the break-out. Crean is the volatile stock where you keep pumping cash in hoping for that runway until you finally give up and sell.

On Wojo, do fans and alums want to invest more? The sentiment to sell is growing with their impatience. It’s “show me” time. For the admin and BOT, Wojo is a hold and a dividend play. Wojo’s steady but average performance satisfies them. However, he needs that breakout sooner rather than later as the shared goal is to “compete for titles”.

I used the Pomeroy numbers as I thought it would add at least an objective lens to the emotional of Scoop (“fire Wojo”). In reality, he has been good but not great. He has also been mediocre but not poor.

The inflection point is approaching. I am a bit more optimistic. This team has a nice ceiling. But I am watching for a peak as the season progresses, not a valley. With Garcia, DJ and Lewis, I see that upside as they are all tough match-ups when clicking.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: panda on January 22, 2021, 05:08:54 PM
I feel using Pomeroy helps get around the conference affiliation question as teams are ranked against each other top to bottom. That helps to at least objectively put that unanswerable question aside, at least for me.

As the numbers indicate, Wojo is Crean without Wade.  Obviously, that is a big “IF” as Tower states (not a compliment per se) and as you feel as well (as do many of us here).

The knock on Crean is he was sawtoothed. The swings from good to below average, and him trying to renegotiate his contract in every good year. Wojo has been meh, slow and steady without the highs and just the rebuild lows.

In the stock market, the Street like the NBA draft, rewards potential. Buzz was the tech start-up with great returns, but you had to absorb the crash. Wojo is the sideways stock, hoping for the break-out. Crean is the volatile stock where you keep pumping cash in hoping for that runway until you finally give up and sell.

On Wojo, do fans and alums want to invest more? The sentiment to sell is growing with their impatience. It’s “show me” time. For the admin and BOT, Wojo is a hold and a dividend play. Wojo’s steady but average performance satisfies them. However, he needs that breakout sooner rather than later as the shared goal is to “compete for titles”.

I used the Pomeroy numbers as I thought it would add at least an objective lens to the emotional of Scoop (“fire Wojo”). In reality, he has been good but not great. He has also been mediocre but not poor.

The inflection point is approaching. I am a bit more optimistic. This team has a nice ceiling. But I am watching for a peak as the season progresses, not a valley. With Garcia, DJ and Fields, I see that upside as they are all tough match-ups when clicking.

I love the fields upside at the quarterback position for next season!
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: NCMUFan on January 22, 2021, 05:11:07 PM
That was an exciting year the entry of Marquette into the BEAST.  Without a phenomenal incoming class of the three Amigos and upper classmen of Novak and Chapman, that first year for Crean in the BEAST could have been carnage.
Buzz's first year he had the three Amigos and Lazar.  Talking about a full cupboard.  But Buzz was impressive his 2nd year with Lazar, Jimmy, David Cubillan and Mo Acker, getting everything he could out of his players.  What a turn around that season after losing so many close ones early on.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on January 22, 2021, 05:12:11 PM
I love the fields upside at the quarterback position for next season!

Lol. I blame Dgies autocorrect.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: panda on January 22, 2021, 05:19:48 PM
Lol. I blame Dgies autocorrect.

Lol all good. Just as an aside, Kenpom numbers will be inherently lower playing in a lesser conference such as CUSA. Not a like for like comparison.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on January 22, 2021, 05:43:44 PM
Lol all good. Just as an aside, Kenpom numbers will be inherently lower playing in a lesser conference such as CUSA. Not a like for like comparison.

KenPom adjusts for that.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: 4everwarriors on January 22, 2021, 05:49:26 PM
MU chit kanned 39 staffers today. Woj ain't goin' know wear unless he gets himself another gig, aina?
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: panda on January 22, 2021, 05:50:51 PM
KenPom adjusts for that.

To an extent, but strength of schedule will never make it a like for like comparison.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on January 22, 2021, 08:27:52 PM
To an extent, but strength of schedule will never make it a like for like comparison.

More than an extent. The SOS impact is pretty minimal
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: tower912 on January 22, 2021, 08:40:11 PM
Senility sets in. Mr. Loaf should never be forgotten.
I won't do that.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 22, 2021, 08:41:14 PM
Your expectations are your expectations, but just because you believe them to be reasonable, doesn't make them reasonable.

Besides Villanova, no team has managed to string together multiple 12-6 seasons in the current iteration of the Big East. Only 4 non-Nova teams have managed to have 2 12-6 or better seasons in the past seven seasons. None have had 3 or more. Creighton has done it twice (13-14 and 19-20), Butler has done it twice (14-15, 16-17), X has done it twice 15-16, 17-18) and Seton Hall has done it twice (15-16, 19-20). Georgetown (14-15), Providence (19-20) and Marquette (18-19) have each done it once. DePaul and St. John's have never done it.

Only one non-Nova team has one the BE outright, Xavier (17-18). Seton Hall and Creighton were co-champions with Nova in 19-20.

Better NCAA success, I'm with you there.

For me, there is a difference between goals and expectations. Expectations are what we do now. Goals are about what we are building to. I absolutely agree that the above are reasonable goals that MU should aspire to and with the right coach will achieve. I don't think they are reasonable to expect at this point.

To be clear, Wojo hasn't met my expectations to this point even though they are lower than yours. He met them years 1-5 but year 6 was a disappointment. I'm waiting to see how this year goes before deciding if its a sign that Wojo hit his ceiling, or if it was just a bump in the road.

So, summing things up, after 7 years under Wojo, Villanova has been way, way better than MU. Xavier has been way better. Creighton, Seton Hall and Butler have been better, as has New Big East new member UCONN. Providence has been about the same. Only Georgetown, St John’s and DePaul (all of whom have been pretty much embarrassingly bad) have been worse. And that, for the most part, meets your expectations. Not mine. To each his own, but when I look at the seven (or 10 or 12 or 15) years of MU basketball pre Wojo and compare them, I’m disappointed.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: panda on January 22, 2021, 08:46:54 PM
More than an extent. The SOS impact is pretty minimal

How so?

I understand the adjusted stats, but at the core of kenpom is quality wins and poor losses. You’re afforded more opportunity for quality wins and less opportunity for very poor losses in a higher quality league. How would the algorithm adjust for seven league losses in the BE vs three league losses in CUSA?

What’s separating a team like St. Mary’s last season vs. a Minnesota? Would St. Mary’s still be ranked the same if they played an identical schedule to Minnesota?

Frankly I think that’s the one weak spot of Kenpom. A team like Minnesota last year is highly ranked more so because of the strength of their schedule rather than their actual ability. 
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on January 22, 2021, 10:48:05 PM
How so?

I understand the adjusted stats, but at the core of kenpom is quality wins and poor losses. You’re afforded more opportunity for quality wins and less opportunity for very poor losses in a higher quality league. How would the algorithm adjust for seven league losses in the BE vs three league losses in CUSA?

What’s separating a team like St. Mary’s last season vs. a Minnesota? Would St. Mary’s still be ranked the same if they played an identical schedule to Minnesota?

Frankly I think that’s the one weak spot of Kenpom. A team like Minnesota last year is highly ranked more so because of the strength of their schedule rather than their actual ability.

The core of KenPom is not quality wins and poor losses, it's efficiency. Do you beat an opponent as efficiently as you should based on their quality? This isn't RPI where you get points just for playing a tough opponent or lose points for playing a bad one. KenPom measures how efficiently you played against your opponents and adjusts your expected efficiency based on the quality of opponent, and continues to adjust for quality as the season goes on and more data becomes available. This is an oversimplification, but basically that larger the margin of victory, the higher your KenPom rating will go. You know the game that raised our KenPom rating the most this season? Eastern Illinois. Again oversimplifying, but KenPom expected us to win by 12ish IIRC and winning by 25 led to us jumping up 5 spots. It didn't matter that they were from a crap conference.

KenPom can compare Minnesota and St. Mary's because it looks at the efficiency of their performances. Again, oversimplifying, but Minnesota has an advantage because they play more quality opponents so they don't need as large of margin of victories to move the needle, but those wins are hard to come by because of the quality of their conference. St. Mary's has an advantage because they play worse opponents and are more likely to rack up large wins, but they really have to run up the score on their opponents in order to move the needle. Reality is, Minnesota losing by 1 to Maryland last season is a lot more impressive than St. Mary's beating Pacific by 8. KenPom accurately captures that.

Frankly I think that’s the one weak spot of Kenpom. A team like Minnesota last year is highly ranked more so because of the strength of their schedule rather than their actual ability. 

You have it backwards. Minnesota's win/loss record was bad more so because of the strength of their schedule rather than their actual ability. Minnesota was a solid team last season in a ridiculously good conference.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: willie warrior on January 23, 2021, 05:17:23 AM
Willie has a Wardle Woody.
Back at you Wojo Woody. Woof Wojo Wang all you desire.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: brewcity77 on January 23, 2021, 08:13:59 AM
To an extent, but strength of schedule will never make it a like for like comparison.

While I understand the argument because of how the Big 10 seems to magnify each other, Gonzaga is #1 and Houston #6 currently. In the past 4 competed seasons, 7 non-power league schools have finished in the top-10, including programs from the MVC & Mountain West. In Cal's last four years at Memphis (in CUSA) they were top-10 each year. And CUSA in the Crean years was a pretty solid conference regardless.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Uncle Rico on January 23, 2021, 08:17:26 AM
Back at you Wojo Woody. Woof Wojo Wang all you desire.

Bradley lost on Wednesday to Illinois State by 15.  Bradley is now 113th in KenPom and 9-5 overall.  Illinois State is 236th and 5-8.


Edit: If there were a coaching change at the end of this season in Milwaukee, I would very much expect Porter Moser to be the Valley coach they’d hire if one came from that conference.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: shoothoops on January 23, 2021, 08:22:59 AM
I feel using Pomeroy helps get around the conference affiliation question as teams are ranked against each other top to bottom. That helps to at least objectively put that unanswerable question aside, at least for me.

As the numbers indicate, Wojo is Crean without Wade.  Obviously, that is a big “IF” as Tower states (not a compliment per se) and as you feel as well (as do many of us here).

The knock on Crean is he was sawtoothed. The swings from good to below average, and him trying to renegotiate his contract in every good year. Wojo has been meh, slow and steady without the highs and just the rebuild lows.

In the stock market, the Street like the NBA draft, rewards potential. Buzz was the tech start-up with great returns, but you had to absorb the crash. Wojo is the sideways stock, hoping for the break-out. Crean is the volatile stock where you keep pumping cash in hoping for that runway until you finally give up and sell.

On Wojo, do fans and alums want to invest more? The sentiment to sell is growing with their impatience. It’s “show me” time. For the admin and BOT, Wojo is a hold and a dividend play. Wojo’s steady but average performance satisfies them. However, he needs that breakout sooner rather than later as the shared goal is to “compete for titles”.

I used the Pomeroy numbers as I thought it would add at least an objective lens to the emotional of Scoop (“fire Wojo”). In reality, he has been good but not great. He has also been mediocre but not poor.

The inflection point is approaching. I am a bit more optimistic. This team has a nice ceiling. But I am watching for a peak as the season progresses, not a valley. With Garcia, DJ and Lewis, I see that upside as they are all tough match-ups when clicking.

I do appreciate the info and discussion.

I do value Crean's Final Four and first three seasons in the old Big East quite a bit. No, I haven't forgotten that afternoon NCAA loss to Tulsa or insert whatever here.

I am consistent in that I find Porter Moser's accomplishments at Loyola Chicago to be better than Brian Wardle's at Bradley to this point. A Final Four, and a few regular season league titles speak to me. (I am not advocating for either one to coach Marquette, and Wardle is two seasons behind that he's allowed to have in that comparison.)

I'd take a regular season league title, and early NCAA exit. I'd take a middle of the pack league finish with a NCAA 2nd weekend. (Of course we'd all take both)

Back to MU Rah Rah, K.O. wasn't in your numbers but making the NCAA's for the first time in a decade, getting better each year until the Sweet 16, has value for me. For Wojo, I need more value.

You alluded a little bit to perhaps some of the different personalities of MU coaches. Things certainly didn't end well for Wojo and the Ellenson family, as well as Wojo and the Hauser family. I mention these to show that sometimes perceptions can vary. People can certainly find negative examples of other MU coaches as well.

We also haven't discussed administration. It was pretty bad under Buzz, and both the AD didn't last long. If anything, working and being successful under more challenging conditions, with admin, or say facilities etc...counts more for me.

I am positive and hopeful unless and until there is no longer a time to be positive and hopeful.

I believe Marquette can improve this season both in the regular season and post season. I am not as bullish on MU's guards and guard play and depth as perhaps some others. I would like to see improvement at back up at the 1, as well as overall depth from the 2 and 3. When someone posted which player would you like to see back next year (I don't expect any), my answer without hesitation was Koby, based on what MU has now, and coming in next year.

There's still an opportunity for a stronger league finish. There's still an opportunity to win an NCAA game or two. Again, I am aware of Marquette's circumstances, the Pandemic, BOT, etc...but what matters most to me is what I think and feel in the end. We'll see what MU can accomplish the rest of the season and into the post season. I am hopeful for good things.







Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: panda on January 23, 2021, 09:45:39 AM
While I understand the argument because of how the Big 10 seems to magnify each other, Gonzaga is #1 and Houston #6 currently. In the past 4 competed seasons, 7 non-power league schools have finished in the top-10, including programs from the MVC & Mountain West. In Cal's last four years at Memphis (in CUSA) they were top-10 each year. And CUSA in the Crean years was a pretty solid conference regardless.

I wouldn’t think the great teams need help, but a top four team in a mid major conference that doesn’t play anyone would always be ranked significantly lower than a middle of the road big ten team in my mind. That’s a deficiency in my mind.

Thx for the insight guys.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: brewcity77 on January 23, 2021, 10:49:32 AM
I wouldn’t think the great teams need help, but a top four team in a mid major conference that doesn’t play anyone would always be ranked significantly lower than a middle of the road big ten team in my mind. That’s a deficiency in my mind.

Thx for the insight guys.

It might be like that in your mind, but it's not like that in the kenpom model. Looking at our CUSA days...

So 3/4 years, the 4th place CUSA team was better than the 6th (middle of 11) placed B10 team.

If what you were saying was true, it would be a problem, but you're arguing from a position that does not comport with reality.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: panda on January 23, 2021, 12:32:23 PM
It might be like that in your mind, but it's not like that in the kenpom model. Looking at our CUSA days...

  • 2002: 4th place CUSA #40 Charlotte, 6th place B10 #46 Iowa
  • 2003: 4th place CUSA #36 Cincinnati,  6th place B10 #61 Michigan
  • 2004: 4th place CUSA #43 Charlotte, 6th place B10 #69 Iowa
  • 2005: 4th place CUSA #53 Memphis, 6th place B10 #41 Minnesota
So 3/4 years, the 4th place CUSA team was better than the 6th (middle of 11) placed B10 team.

If what you were saying was true, it would be a problem, but you're arguing from a position that does not comport with reality.

Honestly - I was over served last night and my points made much more sense then than they do now! Thx for the clarification guys.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: willie warrior on January 23, 2021, 02:20:37 PM
So, summing things up, after 7 years under Wojo, Villanova has been way, way better than MU. Xavier has been way better. Creighton, Seton Hall and Butler have been better, as has New Big East new member UCONN. Providence has been about the same. Only Georgetown, St John’s and DePaul (all of whom have been pretty much embarrassingly bad) have been worse. And that, for the most part, meets your expectations. Not mine. To each his own, but when I look at the seven (or 10 or 12 or 15) years of MU basketball pre Wojo and compare them, I’m disappointed.
An those last 3 you mentioned are the only 3 MU is ahead of in BEast. Kudos to Wojo.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: NCMUFan on January 23, 2021, 02:51:49 PM
I guess W & L are all we look at. But if I recall correctly, Villanova was the only one that completely stomped us.  We had a chance to win the rest in conference play.  Correct me please if I am wrong.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: willie warrior on January 23, 2021, 04:19:26 PM
I guess W & L are all we look at. But if I recall correctly, Villanova was the only one that completely stomped us.  We had a chance to win the rest in conference play.  Correct me please if I am wrong.
You are right. Exvuses for MU mediocrity are always gratefully accepted on Scoop.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Uncle Rico on January 23, 2021, 04:52:34 PM
You are right. Exvuses for MU mediocrity are always gratefully accepted on Scoop.

It’s being accepted at Bradley, too.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: brewcity77 on January 23, 2021, 05:56:14 PM
Honestly - I was over served last night and my points made much more sense then than they do now! Thx for the clarification guys.

LOL understandable.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: muwarrior97 on January 23, 2021, 05:58:03 PM
Are you watching today’s game? I don’t see it
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Bad_Reporter on January 23, 2021, 06:17:57 PM
Imagine if wojo was playing in the Buzz era Big East?  Woof.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on January 23, 2021, 06:23:58 PM
I have stayed away (to the Projos, you're welcome) but enough is enough.

No matter what the year, no matter who the players, we see the same shortcomings year after year.

The simple fact is that despite the occasional good win or two, there is no level of recruiting success that can overcome the deficiencies of Wojo as a game planner and in game coach.

I do not care if we come back to win this game against a winless BE team.  What we are watching is the best we are ever going to get with this guy.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: 4everwarriors on January 23, 2021, 06:27:57 PM
Eye dunno, he kame from Duke, hey?
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: Boozemon Barro on January 23, 2021, 06:32:19 PM
DePaul has a pretty good Team & Coach.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: PointWarrior on January 23, 2021, 06:38:36 PM
Remind me how good our coach and team are now. 
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: mu_hilltopper on January 23, 2021, 07:08:31 PM
Remind me how good our coach and team are now. 

+1
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: goldeneagle91114 on January 23, 2021, 07:09:20 PM
This didn’t age real well
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on January 23, 2021, 07:11:40 PM
This didn’t age real well

Never does.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: willie warrior on January 23, 2021, 07:18:42 PM
It’s being accepted at Bradley, too.
Yes Rico. Explain the ass kicking Wojo just got from the BEast basement in your best Wojo weenie whine.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: NCMUFan on January 23, 2021, 07:27:52 PM
As disappointing as that game was, this board always makes me chuckle.  ;D
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: PointWarrior on January 27, 2021, 08:22:19 PM
Can we bump this again   - or maybe pin it to the top....
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: NickelDimer on January 27, 2021, 08:25:32 PM
I choose the believe this tread was parody because it makes way more sense
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: 4everwarriors on January 27, 2021, 08:28:19 PM
Sure, compared to Our Lady of Perpetual Motion's JV team, hey?
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: mileskishnish72 on January 27, 2021, 08:30:06 PM
It's clear - the OP should be banned.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: PointWarrior on January 31, 2021, 11:33:47 PM
let's bump this again....
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: MUHoopsFan2 on February 01, 2021, 12:15:58 AM
Yes Rico. Explain the ass kicking Wojo just got from the BEast basement in your best Wojo weenie whine.
what ass kicking??? lol

step off the ledge.
Title: Re: We have a pretty good Team & Coach
Post by: willie warrior on February 01, 2021, 05:22:17 AM
what ass kicking??? lol

step off the ledge.
DePaul was an ass kicking. You take the jump