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shoothoops

Quote from: dgies9156 on November 13, 2021, 10:48:42 AM
Wow, I'm amazed that politics can even enter a baseball thread! Do we have no shame?

Back on the ranch, does anyone besides me find it amazing that the St. Louis Cardinals fired a manager who is a finalist for Manager of the Year? Yeah, I'm a die-hard Cardinals fan (yeup, in case you missed it Brother Newsie) but this one seems more than a bit weird.

I have no idea what happened in 2021 that would fire Schlidt but something major happened in the post-mortem on the season. I know they had bullpen problems and they didn't hit well (nobody did last year), but this is extraordinary for a team that prides itself on stability.

Anyone with thoughts...?

In St. Louis, one person rules the roost, Bill DeWitt Jr. He is a hands on owner as opposed to some that might not be. DeWitt and John Mozeliak are thick as thieves. They think alike.

Mike Shildt had made the playoffs in all of his three seasons. The team improved a lot with defense, base running fundamentals etc. Their improved situational hitting helped later in 2021. He had his share of flaws with decision making, lineups. So why was he fired?

Short answer is that Shildt overplayed his hand when it comes to power and decision making.

Getting on the bad side of either DeWitt or Mo will get you gone quick. That's how it works there for better or worse. Dewitt will approve the Mo decision. It didn't have anything to do with on field matters. And there isn't some big secret off the field issue with Shildt. Shildt spent 18 years there. It was an unexpected post season decision. He was fired over the phone, and, he was absolutely positively stunned he was being fired. He said and did all of the right things afterwards. Everyone has a line that you fon't cross. And Shildt crossed Mo and DeWitt's line.

More specifically, the hitting coach, aggessiveness with wanting outside the organization help with pitching during the season sooner, some analytics, although he enbraced some of it, more than you'd think. There were contract extension discussions. Shildt was tough on some staff. He underestimated the value of getting on Mo's bad side and overestimated his power and value with DeWitt.

Oli Marmol is very close with Shildt. Shildt scouted him, and Shildt was his mentor. Marmol gets along with everyone, from the top down to the bottom up. He is a collaborative commuincator popular with all departments and players, and he is modern era friendly too. The days of power managers are more a thing of the past more often these days.

Even TLR knew when to push and when to back down in upper management discussions.

Not much at all will change with Marmol, from a staff standpoint. Obviously they needed to hire a new bench coach, Oli's job, so they hired Skip Schumacher, another very popular player, coach with the players and all of the organization.

JWags85

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 13, 2021, 08:05:15 AM
Let him answer the question. I think it's more than a fair one.

After rereading the post I initially responded to, I think Wags was talking about 45 rather than 46 (or maybe not) so I am wondering where this diagnostic expertise has been for the last 5 years.

Of all the people to call a know it all in this thread, or this board, I'm truly baffled that I'm the one broadly painted with that brush  :o

FWIW, I meant the direct incident with the President in question.  I'm not denying that he has, or overcame, a stutter.  But at the same time he's nearly an 80 year old man in one of the highest stress roles in the world.  I don't think its demeaning or disrespectful to have some concern about it and I don't believe that every time he falters speaking its just "oh its only a stutter".  Same with his predecessor.  Like mentioned earlier, its concerning that its a parade of senior citizens for the role, regardless of affiliation.

But I'm so sorry that you're offended by my anecdotes.  I'll DM you the next time I have a personal experience I want to share in a thread.  Hopefully they pass your scrutiny.  As for Jockey, we know he has absolutely no problem know-it-alls provided they agree with him


ATL MU Warrior

Quote from: JWags85 on November 13, 2021, 04:43:20 PM
Of all the people to call a know it all in this thread, or this board, I'm truly baffled that I'm the one broadly painted with that brush  :o

FWIW, I meant the direct incident with the President in question.  I'm not denying that he has, or overcame, a stutter.  But at the same time he's nearly an 80 year old man in one of the highest stress roles in the world.  I don't think its demeaning or disrespectful to have some concern about it and I don't believe that every time he falters speaking its just "oh its only a stutter".  Same with his predecessor.  Like mentioned earlier, its concerning that its a parade of senior citizens for the role, regardless of affiliation.

But I'm so sorry that you're offended by my anecdotes.  I'll DM you the next time I have a personal experience I want to share in a thread.  Hopefully they pass your scrutiny.  As for Jockey, we know he has absolutely no problem know-it-alls provided they agree with him
I'm glad you responded. It's fair that you have concerns stated above and I was trying (badly apparently) to add some subtle humor suggesting you were actually referring to 45.

I am not offended by your anecdotes although I will admit that I do sometimes wonder how you seemingly have one for virtually every topic on here. If you want to clear them first that's cool  ;D

Lastly, I actually think you are among the best posters here. You obviously have a ton of knowledge and your posts in threads like the investment thread are must-reads for me. I just didn't think your post was appropriate in this case and reacted badly which I tend to do. 

All my way of saying my apologies.

JWags85

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 13, 2021, 05:31:13 PM
I'm glad you responded. It's fair that you have concerns stated above and I was trying (badly apparently) to add some subtle humor suggesting you were actually referring to 45.

I am not offended by your anecdotes although I will admit that I do sometimes wonder how you seemingly have one for virtually every topic on here. If you want to clear them first that's cool  ;D

Lastly, I actually think you are among the best posters here. You obviously have a ton of knowledge and your posts in threads like the investment thread are must-reads for me. I just didn't think your post was appropriate in this case and reacted badly which I tend to do. 

All my way of saying my apologies.

All good my man.  Scoop can be the Wild Wild West.  Appreciate the words.  I can see how the original statement came across poorly or insultingly.  As with written text, sometimes it happens, my intent was certainly not that. 

dgies9156

Brothers Shoot and Jockey:

Thank you, I appreciate your insight. Shoot, I'm sure you are right and it makes all the sense in the world.

DegenerateDish

Eduardo Rodriguez gets five (!!!) years, $80 million from Detroit.

I'm speechless.

JWags85

Quote from: DegenerateDish on November 15, 2021, 07:52:20 AM
Eduardo Rodriguez gets five (!!!) years, $80 million from Detroit.

I'm speechless.

Apparently they thought this was the 2019 offseason?

PGsHeroes32

His advanced numbers were really quality.

But that's still a lot of money and years to a guy who hasn't put it all together and has a damn heart condition
Lazar picking up where the BIG 3 left off....

MU82

It's all funny money. Just about nothing surprises me anymore.

I mean, the Panthers gave Darnold $19M sight unseen for next season, and he was the worst QB in the NFL.
"It's not how white men fight." - Tucker Carlson

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." - George Washington

jficke13

Quote from: MU82 on November 15, 2021, 10:02:10 AM
It's all funny money. Just about nothing surprises me anymore.

I mean, the Panthers gave Darnold $19M sight unseen for next season, and he was the worst QB in the NFL.

The only difference, I suppose, is that in the NFL there's at least some semblance of a finite payroll due to the salary cap. Theoretically, in MLB, the ownership group can absorb whatever salaries they feel like paying. The only finite resource MLB owners have to worry about is their tolerance for reduced profit margins.

tower912

Detroit can afford it.   Other than Miggy, no huge contracts on the books.  I look for them to sign one of the big money FA shortstops and then get ready for spring training.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

MU82

Quote from: jficke13 on November 15, 2021, 10:07:44 AM
The only difference, I suppose, is that in the NFL there's at least some semblance of a finite payroll due to the salary cap. Theoretically, in MLB, the ownership group can absorb whatever salaries they feel like paying. The only finite resource MLB owners have to worry about is their tolerance for reduced profit margins.

All true. Good points.

Back in 1976, Wayne Garland signed a 10-year, $2.3 million contract and I remember thinking, "This is madness and it can't go on. If this continues, baseball will be dead by 1980!"
"It's not how white men fight." - Tucker Carlson

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." - George Washington

CTWarrior

Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on November 15, 2021, 09:24:14 AM
His advanced numbers were really quality.

But that's still a lot of money and years to a guy who hasn't put it all together and has a damn heart condition

He's really good and the Tigers will be happy with him.  The Red Sox defense is awful and going from Fenway to Detroit will help.  He's going to surprise.  I trust him more in a big game than Chris Sale.
Calvin:  I'm a genius.  But I'm a misunderstood genius. 
Hobbes:  What's misunderstood about you?
Calvin:  Nobody thinks I'm a genius.

Jockey

The money wasn't a huge surprise as that is the going rate for a career league average pitcher.

What surprised me was the length of the contract and the fact that it was done before the new CBA.

DegenerateDish

Berrios 7 (!!!!!!) years with Jays, $140 million.

This is Bizarro World.

JWags85

Syndergaard gets 1 year, $21MM from the Angels.  Not a bad welcome back from major surgery

buckchuckler

Quote from: DegenerateDish on November 16, 2021, 08:35:02 AM
Berrios 7 (!!!!!!) years with Jays, $140 million.

This is Bizarro World.

I must be crazy, but this doens't seem outlandish at all to me.  Berrios is a really good pitcher, and by today's standards kind of a workhorse.  He is relatively young and would command more than 20M per season on the free agent market I would think.

If you take out his disastrous rookie season, he has a 3.74 ERA, a 1.17 WHIP, 3.79 FIP and better than a K per inning.  He has also thrown over 190 innings the last 3 full seasons. 

As a Sox fan, I'd take him on this deal, and I'd love to get Giolito on something similar (maybe not a perfect comp, but I think pretty reasonable). 7 years is a lot, and it buys out one arb year, so what I saw was the extension is actually 6/120 and 11 for this year for a total of 7/131 with that one arb year (mlbtraderumors).

MU Fan in Connecticut

Anyone giving Andrew Heaney a contract is crazy.

MUBurrow

Quote from: JWags85 on November 16, 2021, 10:23:16 AM
Syndergaard gets 1 year, $21MM from the Angels.  Not a bad welcome back from major surgery

I actually think this is the worst contract handed out so far.  Losing a draft pick for a one year deal that is wishing on an injury bounceback is just awful work. 


DegenerateDish

Quote from: MUBurrow on November 16, 2021, 05:20:27 PM
I actually think this is the worst contract handed out so far.  Losing a draft pick for a one year deal that is wishing on an injury bounceback is just awful work.

Completely agree. Everything about this signing screams desperation. Signing him for one year, at that dollar amount, with major injury risk, while losing a draft pick is bad business.

If they gave him two years, I could see it. If you're the Angels, you might as well get every pitch possible out of his arm. I honestly don't see how this helps Syndergard long term.

MU82

When I heard the Angels signed Syndergaard, my first thought was it must be a low-guarantee, high-incentive, low-risk, high-reward contract.

Then I heard it was $21M and I couldn't stop laughing.

No wonder that organization has wandered in the wilderness for years.
"It's not how white men fight." - Tucker Carlson

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." - George Washington

DegenerateDish

Nightengale, who is wrong 97% of the time on all MLB stuff, but seems right 50% of the time on White Sox related things, is saying the Sox are in on Verlander.

I don't hate the idea of it, but also really need to know how healthy he is, and of course numbers/years. Hypothetically if they did one year, $16 million, I think I'd be fine with it. But this pitching market has been wacky so far, so who knows.

HouWarrior

Quote from: DegenerateDish on November 17, 2021, 01:57:06 PM
Nightengale, who is wrong 97% of the time on all MLB stuff, but seems right 50% of the time on White Sox related things, is saying the Sox are in on Verlander.

I don't hate the idea of it, but also really need to know how healthy he is, and of course numbers/years. Hypothetically if they did one year, $16 million, I think I'd be fine with it. But this pitching market has been wacky so far, so who knows.
I believe that is less than his Astros  one year qualifying offer
Justin is more likely to first shop for 2-3 years deals If none he will stay here for a year versus a pay cut one year deal with y'all
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

DegenerateDish

Quote from: HouWarrior on November 17, 2021, 02:26:06 PM
I believe that is less than his Astros  one year qualifying offer
Justin is more likely to first shop for 2-3 years deals If none he will stay here for a year versus a pay cut one year deal with y'all

Ahh, you're right, I forgot he got a QO.

buckchuckler

2/50 back to the Astors (1/25 with a player  option for the same).

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