The Hey its 2021 now guys MLB thread

[tower912]

I remember watching a guy in an MU shirt berating his girlfriend in an airport.  Not impressive.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I remember watching a guy in an MU shirt berating his girlfriend in an airport.  Not impressive.

Warrior or Golden Eagle logo?

[tower912]

MU

[GB Warrior]

No population is perfectly devoid of asshats.

Fortunately for us none of them are on scoop

[DegenerateDish]

Are we sure Ohtani is the MVP?

Like, I know his story is awesome, and it’s remarkable to be a two way player and be really good at both pitching and hitting, but man, he’s been borderline mediocre or if we really want to be honest, bad, since August 1st. The numbers are not kind. I don’t know how we just throw away a third of the season and dismiss it because he was crowned MVP in June.

[MU82]

Are we sure Ohtani is the MVP?

Like, I know his story is awesome, and it’s remarkable to be a two way player and be really good at both pitching and hitting, but man, he’s been borderline mediocre or if we really want to be honest, bad, since August 1st. The numbers are not kind. I don’t know how we just throw away a third of the season and dismiss it because he was crowned MVP in June.

Totally agree. I actually happened to look up his batting stats and I was surprised how bad he's been since the ASB, and even worse (like you said) the last month and a half. And a pitcher, his ERA the last month is 7.04.

If the Angels were to have any chance at even pretending to contend, they needed their star to produce. But he hasn't. The opposite of "value."

Meanwhile, Vlad Jr. has carried the Blue Jays to the cusp of a postseason spot. He leads the AL in batting, OBP, slugging, HR and R, and he has 103 RBI (7 behind KC's Perez) as he chases the Triple Crown. All for a legit contender.

Going into September, the Blue Jays were closer in the standings to the 10th-place Angels (4 games) than they were to a wild-card spot (4.5 games). If the season ended today, the Blue Jays would be in the playoffs, and they are 10.5 games ahead of L.A.

Shohei in September: .158/.273/.316, 2 HR, 4 RBI, 3 R ... 1-1, 6.97 ERA, .885 OPS against. ... Opposite of "value."

Vlad Jr in September: .355/.412/.677, 6 HR, 7 RBI, 18 R. ... Most "value."

Vlad has had pressure to perform -- the Blue Jays desperately need him at his best if they are to make the playoffs. The only pressure Shohei has faced is the pressure he puts on himself.

As we sit here today, Vlad's the pretty easy MVP choice IMHO.

[The Lens]

Reely klassy how he threw da Kenosha schmuck under da bus, aina?

As I said, POS. 

[MUBurrow]

Are we sure Ohtani is the MVP?

Like, I know his story is awesome, and it’s remarkable to be a two way player and be really good at both pitching and hitting, but man, he’s been borderline mediocre or if we really want to be honest, bad, since August 1st. The numbers are not kind. I don’t know how we just throw away a third of the season and dismiss it because he was crowned MVP in June.

I'm still pretty sure.  I agree we shouldn't toss out the last third of the season, but he was so far ahead going into August that I also think its recency bias to say that he shouldn't win it right now.  If Vlad mashes these final two weeks and Ohtani continues to crater, then maybe the numbers bear out a closer race.  But right now, Ohtani is still almost a full win above replacement ahead of Vlad. 

And I've never been one to factor in a team's competitive standing very heavily for MVP.  We can say the Jays are in it becuase Vlad has been mashing, but the opposite is also true.  Vlad bats behind the player that ranks 3rd in AL WAR and ahead of the player that ranks 19th.  His counting numbers are going to be ridiculous, and he gets pitches to hit.  Meanwhile, yesterday Ohtani batted between David Fletcher and Paul Gosselin.

I agree that its closer than it was a month ago, but I'd still vote for Ohtani today without a second thought.

[DegenerateDish]

I’m not discounting his pitching, but at the plate, Vlad is 6.2 WAR, Ohtani is 4.3 WAR.

If the Jays end up hosting the AL Wild Card, meaning they’d have passed Boston & New York, that has to count for something, right?

I’m not trying to piss on Ohtani, I just think handing a guy an award in June doesn’t make sense.

[WI_Inferiority_Complexes1]

Are we sure Ohtani is the MVP?

It’s Yermin Mercedes. It’s always been Yermin Mercedes.

[MU82]

I’m not discounting his pitching, but at the plate, Vlad is 6.2 WAR, Ohtani is 4.3 WAR.

If the Jays end up hosting the AL Wild Card, meaning they’d have passed Boston & New York, that has to count for something, right?

I’m not trying to piss on Ohtani, I just think handing a guy an award in June doesn’t make sense.

Yep.

I love watching Ohtani, or at least I did before he got bad. But crowning a guy on a non-contender on July 1 ... I don't get it.

I also don't get totally ignoring team results.

[DegenerateDish]

It’s Yermin Mercedes. It’s always been Yermin Mercedes.

I’m ashamed I have future bets on him to win AL ROY.

[MUBurrow]

I’m not discounting his pitching, but at the plate, Vlad is 6.2 WAR, Ohtani is 4.3 WAR.

If the Jays end up hosting the AL Wild Card, meaning they’d have passed Boston & New York, that has to count for something, right?

I’m not trying to piss on Ohtani, I just think handing a guy an award in June doesn’t make sense.

I love watching Ohtani, or at least I did before he got bad. But crowning a guy on a non-contender on July 1 ... I don't get it.

I also don't get totally ignoring team results.

I agree that crowning a guy in June/July doesn't make sense, but I'm not saying he should win on first half WAR.  His cumulative WAR is still almost a full game above replacement ahead of Vlad.  That's full body of work, even with his August-September slump.  I don't think August and September are a bonus round that should count for twice what early season stats do.  Again if he stinks or gets shut down for the final two weeks, and if Vlad continues to mash and tightens the race to within a couple tenths of a WAR, then yeah I'd be fine with giving to Vlad, but we're just not there yet.

And I hate the focus on a team's record in determining MVP because IMO it tries to make baseball something its not.  Baseball is a series of individual events that aggregate to a final score. It isn't football or basketball or hockey with an open field where players "take over."  If a pitcher or batter is the best in baseball on a losing team, what more did you want him to do?  That's even doubly true where you have a guy that pitches and hits:

If you take only Ohtani's hitting WAR, here is his AL company within 0.3 WAR: Bogaerts, Altuve, Matt Olson, Devers. 
If you take only his pitching WAR, here is his AL company: Bassitt, Quantrill, McCullers, Berrios.   

So on a playoff team, Ohtani would be a top of the order hitter and an SP2. In one guy.  There is literally not more on aggregate stats a guy could do to put his team in the position to be successful.  He eliminated the need for a whole rostered player, who on a playoff team would be one of their what, six best players?  I would prefer it if Ohtani didn't totally crater at the end of the year to make the argument more difficult, but to me he's the definition of "most valuable" both from a team building standpoint and until Vlad passes him in WAR, from a pure statistical standpoint.  The fact that the Angels pitchers have a cumulative 4.72 ERA and their hitters slug a cumulative .412 (both including Ohtani's team leading stats) doesnt change that he is by definition, "the most valuable."

[DegenerateDish]

Fair take by Burrow, I wish both guys could get an award to be honest. I think both have done amazing things this year.

Part of the issue is Ohtani is a unicorn. If he has a year like this again next year (and someone like Vlad has a near triple crown), does Ohtani win it again? He should be awarded at some point, I guess we worry about that later.

[MU82]

I agree that crowning a guy in June/July doesn't make sense, but I'm not saying he should win on first half WAR.  His cumulative WAR is still almost a full game above replacement ahead of Vlad.  That's full body of work, even with his August-September slump.  I don't think August and September are a bonus round that should count for twice what early season stats do.  Again if he stinks or gets shut down for the final two weeks, and if Vlad continues to mash and tightens the race to within a couple tenths of a WAR, then yeah I'd be fine with giving to Vlad, but we're just not there yet.

And I hate the focus on a team's record in determining MVP because IMO it tries to make baseball something its not.  Baseball is a series of individual events that aggregate to a final score. It isn't football or basketball or hockey with an open field where players "take over."  If a pitcher or batter is the best in baseball on a losing team, what more did you want him to do?  That's even doubly true where you have a guy that pitches and hits:

If you take only Ohtani's hitting WAR, here is his AL company within 0.3 WAR: Bogaerts, Altuve, Matt Olson, Devers. 
If you take only his pitching WAR, here is his AL company: Bassitt, Quantrill, McCullers, Berrios.   

So on a playoff team, Ohtani would be a top of the order hitter and an SP2. In one guy.  There is literally not more on aggregate stats a guy could do to put his team in the position to be successful.  He eliminated the need for a whole rostered player, who on a playoff team would be one of their what, six best players?  I would prefer it if Ohtani didn't totally crater at the end of the year to make the argument more difficult, but to me he's the definition of "most valuable" both from a team building standpoint and until Vlad passes him in WAR, from a pure statistical standpoint.  The fact that the Angels pitchers have a cumulative 4.72 ERA and their hitters slug a cumulative .412 (both including Ohtani's team leading stats) doesnt change that he is by definition, "the most valuable."

I am not one who rejects WAR and other advanced metrics; I think they're important. But I also think there has to be room for nuance. And I actually DO think August and September should count more when talking about MVP. A good team's stud hitter faces special pressure in mid-September with the playoffs on the line that a bad team's stud simply doesn't.

As for the team aspect ... baseball is largely a mental game. And stars can lift (and have lifted) teams, given them confidence that they can do things like overcome huge deficits to get into the playoffs -- as Toronto could be on the verge of doing. It's one reason I think dominant pitchers should be MVP candidates, because they give their teams a psychological advantage.

"Yeah, but that isn't measurable by stats!" Well, that's why we've been given brains to think about these things rather than relying purely on numbers. It's why these awards are still voted on by human beings rather than just presented to the guy in the league with the best WAR.

That Vlad Guerrero Jr. could win the Triple Crown and lead a Toronto team that was projected to be .500 at best into the playoffs ... and lose the MVP to a guy who was bad (not average, but bad) in the second half of the season and whose team never sniffed contention ... that doesn't seem right to me.

Having said all that, I realize the specialness of what Ohtani has done, and I wouldn't be outraged or anything if he gets the MVP.

And I like these kinds of respectful discussions, MUB, so thanks.

[MUBurrow]

Yeah thanks guys, I love this stuff and there are a ton of merits to the arguments on both sides.  And I think it is fair to point out that I'm a bit taken by the fact that we've never seen someone do what Ohtani is doing.  He kind of breaks WAR and probably the notion of an MVP.  Even medicore pitching and hitting seasons would make him a WAR leader and I could still make the "hey, he's a 5 hitter and an SP3 - that's more value than any single player provides!" argument.  So there has to be a limit to that - or maybe there doesn't because the reason he breaks WAR is because what he's doing is nearly impossible?  Idk, there's no silver bullet answer.

[PGsHeroes32]

Thinking Perez used his 2019 injury year to get a nice shipment of Ryan Braun’s old stash

[Jockey]

Marcus Semien has a higher WAR than Vlad; he is way more valuable defensively. He will end up with 40+ HR and 100+ RBI. He is a base stealing threat and a much better baserunner.

And no one talks about him in the MVP race.

I still go for Ohtani, although I understand the arguments of those who don't, but can you imagine how he would do if he had decent hitters surrounding him in the batting order.

[Uncle Rico]

Argue about the AL MVP you all want, Yadier Molina has wrapped up the NL MVP

[Jockey]

Argue about the AL MVP you all want, Yadier Molina has wrapped up the NL MVP

I heard he may get the Cy Young, as well. Just because he handles pitchers in a great, fantastic way - greater and more fantastic than anyone in the history of the world. All of their success is due to Yadier.

[Uncle Rico]

I heard he may get the Cy Young, as well. Just because he handles pitchers in a great, fantastic way - greater and more fantastic than anyone in the history of the world. All of their success is due to Yadier.

Chuck Norris wears a Yadier Molina jersey

[DegenerateDish]

Ohtani’s pitching season is over, he’ll DH the rest of the season.

(This is a smart decision by the Angels & Ohtani).

[MU82]

Marcus Semien has a higher WAR than Vlad; he is way more valuable defensively. He will end up with 40+ HR and 100+ RBI. He is a base stealing threat and a much better baserunner.

And no one talks about him in the MVP race.

I still go for Ohtani, although I understand the arguments of those who don't, but can you imagine how he would do if he had decent hitters surrounding him in the batting order.

Semien definitely deserves consideration, but he has the "misfortune" (in MVP terms) of being a teammate to a guy who leads the league in practically every offensive category and has a legit shot at the Triple Crown.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Argue about the AL MVP you all want, Yadier Molina has wrapped up the NL MVP

Emma's.

Yadier Molina is going to win the Yadier Molina MVP Award. 

[MU82]

From The Athletic:

The Low-A West League is speeding up time, in baseball games, since it began experimenting with a 15-second pitch clock in June. As a result, the league has cut game times by 21 minutes.

That's the direct opposite of MLB, where the average time of a nine-inning game is up by nearly 20 minutes, just over the last 10 years — and by more than a half-hour since the '80s. With major-league games filled with plenty of dead time, the MLB commissioner's office is taking notice of the pitch clock's impact on the Low-A West League (formerly the California League).

"It really is an incredible experience," says former big-leaguer Raul Ibañez, who is one of the people overseeing this experiment in his role as a senior vice president of on-field operations for MLB. "It feels like the baseball games that I grew up watching in the '80s."

The length of games isn't the only thing affected by the newly implemented pitch clocks. The Low-A West League has also seen more runs and home runs, as well as fewer walks and strikeouts.