Wojo After Top-15 Wins

[MU82]

A lot of Scoopers hate Crean. Many who don't go so far as hating Crean still have little respect for him.

Wade loves Crean, calls him a fantastic coach.

A lot of the Scoopers who hate Crean love Wade.

All of which means ... what?

Take any comments from any players with a grain of salt.

[dgies9156]

Brother and Sister Scoopers:

Most of you are over-analyzing our season to date. We are a significantly inexperienced team that will become better with time.

Likewise, I’m seeing things in Wojo this year that says he’s learning as well. We’re not going to be world killers each and every night, yet.

We will get there. Hopefully sooner rather than later. My view is that experienced teams win last night far more often than not. Our team is very talented and patience is a virtue.

[tower912]

Brother and Sister Scoopers:

Most of you are over-analyzing our season to date. We are a significantly inexperienced team that will become better with time.

Likewise, I’m seeing things in Wojo this year that says he’s learning as well. We’re not going to be world killers each and every night, yet.

We will get there. Hopefully sooner rather than later. My view is that experienced teams win last night far more often than not. Our team is very talented and patience is a virtue.

We are in accord.   

[brewcity77]

And you have chosen to ignore quotes from the likes of Markus Howard and Samir who likely say nothing but positive things about Wojo.

No, I'm not, they just aren't relevant. The quotes I'm highlighting are because they show a lower level of accountability and a coach that cannot convey to his team the importance of defense.

Just because some of his players like him doesn't make him a good coach. I like plenty of people because of their personality and not their professional ability.

And who's Samir?

[brewcity77]

And only 1 of those dudes has averaged more than 21 minutes a game in a season. Adjusting from being a guy to one of the guys is not a smooth process. I've actually been impressed with how Koby, Theo, and Jamal have grown into their roles. Elliott has had highs and lows and Symir has just had lows so far.

But that's just college basketball. That's why we watch the sport. As a freshman, you give bit minutes, as a sophomore you work into the rotation, as an upperclassman you become a starter and more impactful player. Sometimes guys are ahead of the curve or behind it, but expecting seniors to play like seniors shouldn't be some surprising ask because that is virtually every team every year.

[oldwarrior81]

And who's Samir?

Samir sounds like someone that could be straight out of Bollywood.
Good to hear Wojo has backers on the subcontinent.

[IrwinFletcher]

No, I'm not, they just aren't relevant. The quotes I'm highlighting are because they show a lower level of accountability and a coach that cannot convey to his team the importance of defense.

Just because some of his players like him doesn't make him a good coach. I like plenty of people because of their personality and not their professional ability.

And who's Samir?

My apologies.  I need to proofread  my posts.  Sacar.

Not Relevant to you.  Relevant to me.  So picking out a quote from a former, disgruntled player to prove your point also proves your bias against Wojo.

[4everwarriors]

Are we saying that Wojo only wins the big games? 
Again, the lack of logic baffles me.

Nah, kant wynn inn March, aina?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

But that's just college basketball. That's why we watch the sport. As a freshman, you give bit minutes, as a sophomore you work into the rotation, as an upperclassman you become a starter and more impactful player. Sometimes guys are ahead of the curve or behind it, but expecting seniors to play like seniors shouldn't be some surprising ask because that is virtually every team every year.

What's just college basketball is that teams that lose 70% of their scoring, including a first team All-American, their second best player, and a third starter typically don't improve the following season, more often than not they decline. If they do improve or even maintain, that's the sign of a strong program. Age is important. Returning minutes are important. Upperclassmen with lots of returning minutes are most important.

Also, which of our seniors aren't playing like seniors? I think Koby, Theo, Jamal, and Greg have been playing the best basketball of their careers to start this season. We're talking about four guys who were ranked #145, #175, #204, and #224 by 247Composite coming out of high school. While none of them developed in a straight line, I think their progression is about where you would expect those level of recruits to be as seniors. Sure there are examples from those ranges who have been better or worse, but I think they're within normal range.

I could be wrong, but my perception is that our worst offenders with the concerns you have raised (turnovers and blown defensive assignments/slow rotations) are not our seniors but our underclassmen. I think Theo and Greg may be up in there in turnover% but that's due to how low their usage is. Plus, Greg had 3 against APB and since has had 4 turnovers in 7 games.

[brewcity77]

My apologies.  I need to proofread  my posts.  Sacar.

Not Relevant to you.  Relevant to me.  So picking out a quote from a former, disgruntled player to prove your point also proves your bias against Wojo.

/'

No worries, wasn't sure if you meant Sacar or Symir.

And as far as picking Hauser quotes, he's talking primarily about Virginia. He's talking about their expectations and what they expect of him. The context makes it clear what the differences are, but it isn't like he's bagging on Wojo. And you're ignoring the quotes by current players who are indicating defense wasn't a priority or something they really bought into until this year.

My bias against Wojo is that he has failed repeatedly to deliver results and he has degraded the Marquette product on the court. He has been a good representative of the University and brought in likable players that are easy to cheer for, but I firmly believe his style is not one that will succeed in the modern game nor that he understands the ways the game is changing statistically. If there were strings of results to counter that, I'd have a different opinion, but I don't see them. I do, however, repeatedly see the failings of past years cropping up again, just like I believe we are again overrating the defense that, like the past two years, is mediocre by high-major standards.

[MUfan12]

My bias against Wojo is that he has failed repeatedly to deliver results and he has degraded the Marquette product on the court. He has been a good representative of the University and brought in likable players that are easy to cheer for, but I firmly believe his style is not one that will succeed in the modern game nor that he understands the ways the game is changing statistically. If there were strings of results to counter that, I'd have a different opinion, but I don't see them. I do, however, repeatedly see the failings of past years cropping up again, just like I believe we are again overrating the defense that, like the past two years, is mediocre by high-major standards.

Maybe my standards are too high, but what I keep coming back to is that his Marquette teams (outside of  maybe 18-19 pre-collapse) never look capable of competing with top echelon programs. They're either too short, not physical enough, not athletic enough... and every time we play one of them it's a "bad matchup."

If the University wants a top 50 program most years, then he's doing fine. But any aspirations higher than that, I don't think he's the guy.

[panda]

/'

No worries, wasn't sure if you meant Sacar or Symir.

And as far as picking Hauser quotes, he's talking primarily about Virginia. He's talking about their expectations and what they expect of him. The context makes it clear what the differences are, but it isn't like he's bagging on Wojo. And you're ignoring the quotes by current players who are indicating defense wasn't a priority or something they really bought into until this year.

My bias against Wojo is that he has failed repeatedly to deliver results and he has degraded the Marquette product on the court. He has been a good representative of the University and brought in likable players that are easy to cheer for, but I firmly believe his style is not one that will succeed in the modern game nor that he understands the ways the game is changing statistically. If there were strings of results to counter that, I'd have a different opinion, but I don't see them. I do, however, repeatedly see the failings of past years cropping up again, just like I believe we are again overrating the defense that, like the past two years, is mediocre by high-major standards.

What statistical category do you think the staff is ignoring? Obviously forcing turnovers is the glaring number.

[brewcity77]

What statistical category do you think the staff is ignoring? Obviously forcing turnovers is the glaring number.

Turnovers on both ends is glaring and I've written on that before. It's somewhat disturbing to watch steal percentage numbers routinely go down over Marquette players careers under Wojo. Offensively, sticking with Markus in 2019 when he was clearly hurt and lost effectiveness, or sticking with Koby all last year, particularly as his numbers tanked late. Once Wojo has his guys, it seems almost impossible for on-court evidence to change his rotations until it's far past time.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Turnovers on both ends is glaring and I've written on that before. It's somewhat disturbing to watch steal percentage numbers routinely go down over Marquette players careers under Wojo. Offensively, sticking with Markus in 2019 when he was clearly hurt and lost effectiveness, or sticking with Koby all last year, particularly as his numbers tanked late. Once Wojo has his guys, it seems almost impossible for on-court evidence to change his rotations until it's far past time.

In the past two years this is true. The two years before that, he switched up lineups and finished the regular season 4-1 (year 3) and 5-1 (year 4). We will see what he does this season. I've already observed more lineup flexibility than I saw last season.

[panda]

Turnovers on both ends is glaring and I've written on that before. It's somewhat disturbing to watch steal percentage numbers routinely go down over Marquette players careers under Wojo. Offensively, sticking with Markus in 2019 when he was clearly hurt and lost effectiveness, or sticking with Koby all last year, particularly as his numbers tanked late. Once Wojo has his guys, it seems almost impossible for on-court evidence to change his rotations until it's far past time.

Thanks

[brewcity77]

Not Relevant to you.  Relevant to me.  So picking out a quote from a former, disgruntled player to prove your point also proves your bias against Wojo.

Also, it's worth remembering those quotes come from a player Wojo recruited, signed, and coached. Whatever happened afterward, Wojo completely created the situation that put Markus, Sam, and Joey on a roster together and the fallout that came from it.

When Joey committed, I remember Wojo saying to the effect that having Sam on the roster wasn't an automatic positive because if Sam had a bad experience at Marquette, that would've worked against them to get Joey. Which means Wojo has to be held accountable for the reality that Joey having a bad experience worked against them in having both Joey AND Sam transferring. He doesn't get credit for one experiential win without blame for the subsequent experiential loss.

That's why I refuse to give him a pass on the Hausers. It was his doing. He put together the roster and created the expectations that effectively led to two lost years: the Big East title that we lost 4 games in a row and the title we could've shared had we won 6/7 instead of losing 6/7 (and yes, we were favored to win 6 of those 7 games, so it's less outlandish to assume we could've won them than the reality that we lost them).

[Dr. Blackheart]

Turnovers on both ends is glaring and I've written on that before. It's somewhat disturbing to watch steal percentage numbers routinely go down over Marquette players careers under Wojo. Offensively, sticking with Markus in 2019 when he was clearly hurt and lost effectiveness, or sticking with Koby all last year, particularly as his numbers tanked late. Once Wojo has his guys, it seems almost impossible for on-court evidence to change his rotations until it's far past time.

On offense, consider that you may be overly focused on turnovers.  Note, that overall, MU has had one of the most consistently efficient teams in the team's history, conference and the country in the Wojo era. eFG rates have been off the charts good and alternately FTR and OR% have made up the mediocre TO%, remembering how Wojo likes to use the chip block with his bigs who have high TO rates due to offensive fouls (Theo is 30% this year, for example, also understanding the points of emphasis change on this over time). Sum of the parts has been greater than just one factor

This year's team seems different, though, and I think the turnover problem is fixable. Yet, MU doesn't have the shooters this year.

On defense, I am a known critic but I am digging the D this season. Last game, for example, we had breakaway steals by Carton and Cain, something I can't recall much of in the Wojo years, where he had stressed staying in space versus pressing the passing lanes.

Net, I am not as hot and bothered long term by the turnovers on offense as they have been an ends to a means. This year, there is cleanup to do. I mean, Theo with a ridiculous 70%+eFG% and a 30% TO rate is crazy.

[mu_hilltopper]

Over the past ~7 years, MU has proven out the Any Given Sunday theorem.

I imagine if you looked at every RPI 40-60 team they have this same experience.  They remain middling teams but have lots of games versus top teams.   They win a quarter of them, then lay an egg 5 days later against comparatively inferior talent.   #Arbys

[Dr. Blackheart]

Over the past ~7 years, MU has proven out the Any Given Sunday theorem.

I imagine if you looked at every RPI 40-60 team they have this same experience.  They remain middling teams but have lots of games versus top teams.   They win a quarter of them, then lay an egg 5 days later against comparatively inferior talent.   #Arbys

Which is why you need a good defense that can win you games and keep you close during the BE grind when the O isn't clicking. See past seasons' rants.

#sanford

[mu_hilltopper]

Which is why you need a good defense that can win you games and keep you close during the BE grind when the O isn't clicking. See past seasons' rants.

#sanford

Right.  Bummer that's not the case.  MU's numbers:

[SaveOD238]

Right.  Bummer that's not the case.  MU's numbers:

So...we're in the bottom 20 in Division 1 in forcing turnovers?  That's not great...

[mu_hilltopper]

So...we're in the bottom 20 in Division 1 in forcing turnovers?  That's not great...

Defense is time wasted you could be scoring.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

"Defense is time wasted you could be scoring."
                        -- Andrew Rowsey

[BM1090]

So...we're in the bottom 20 in Division 1 in forcing turnovers?  That's not great...

Last year. This year we are up to bottom 70!