General Big East Thread 20-21

[tower912]

I think a lot of Big East schools have had two week COVID breaks during their preseason practice.    Losing 20 hours of practice is showing up on the floor.   

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Big time woof start for the Big East. 

[brewcity77]

Big time woof start for the Big East.

The Big East is really hurting themselves in terms of tourney bids. 2-5 against high major opponents with 3 losses outside the high-majors. The league collectively has one top-50 win. With the shortened non-con, this is the type of performance that will lead to 3-4 bids.

[Goose]

J5

I have not been on the site in awhile and always happy to see your using my Rick SLU line in your signature. Cannot believe it was nearly four years ago.

You can update it, I would take Rick's MU program at the moment.

[tower912]

UConn doesn't know how to attack a zone.   Last 10 minutes of that game were unwatchable.

[BM1090]

UConn doesn't know how to attack a zone.   Last 10 minutes of that game were unwatchable.

Very ugly. Glad they were able to hold on.

[Billy Hoyle]

J5

I have not been on the site in awhile and always happy to see your using my Rick SLU line in your signature. Cannot believe it was nearly four years ago.

You can update it, I would take Rick's MU program at the moment.

And SLU is one of the dark horse candidates for a Dayton-like run this year.

[Lennys Tap]

Why would two teams from the same conferences have fundamentally different bars?  Why should Providence be satisfied with Ed Cooley's performance? 

Anyway, my point is that Wojo and Cooley aren't really all that different.  If you swap them, the results would be similar.

Fluff

You are right that Providence under Cooley and Marquette under Wojo are basically the same. Wojo is 51-57 in the Big East and Cooley is 60-48 over that span. They're 6-6 head to head. So under Wojo we're very similar programs.

BW (Before Wojo), we were in the Big East for 9 seasons (spanning 2 coaches) with Providence. Our conference record was 100-58 in those 9 seasons. Providence was 60-98. Head to head we were 11-2 versus the Friars. And only 2 years before we joined the Big East, MU was in the Final Four.

Cooley made a crummy program average, Wojo turned a really successful program into an average one. Context matters - advantage Cooley.

As to your first question - teams from the same conference have always had different bars. Expectations at Villanova, N Carolina, Kentucky, etc., are considerably higher than those at DePaul, Virginia Tech, Ole Miss, etc. - as they should be.

[DFW HOYA]

Cooley made a crummy program average, Wojo turned a really successful program into an average one. Context matters - advantage Cooley.

Cooley overperforms with the talent he can recruit, Wojo slightly underperforms.

I'll leave St. John's and Georgetown out of this topic altogether.

[Galway Eagle]

Cooley overperforms with the talent he can recruit, Wojo slightly underperforms.

I'll leave St. John's and Georgetown out of this topic altogether.

Umm I'd argue nobody in the conference has underperformed more than Cooley. He had a ridiculous couple classes the likes of which Providence has never seen and didn't go anywhere

[MU82]

Cooley and Wojo have had strikingly similar results. Whether that's good enough for Scoopers is an altogether different discussion/debate. But to paint Cooley as a big success story and Wojo as a comparative failure (or vice versa) is just dopey. They are 6-6 against each other. That's pretty fitting. I want better from my MU coach, but again that isn't what people are discussing when they falsely claim that Cooley has outperformed Wojo.

[Goose]

Lenny

Great post. Both guys had starting points and Wojo has taken MU backwards and Cooley has moved Providence upwards. Let's face it, Wojo really has not accomplished any team success for the program. Has won some recruiting battles and has run a very clean program and that deserves to be acknowledged. Other than that, basically a bust.

[Lennys Tap]

Cooley and Wojo have had strikingly similar results. Whether that's good enough for Scoopers is an altogether different discussion/debate. But to paint Cooley as a big success story and Wojo as a comparative failure (or vice versa) is just dopey. They are 6-6 against each other. That's pretty fitting. I want better from my MU coach, but again that isn't what people are discussing when they falsely claim that Cooley has outperformed Wojo.

Mike

You're right that they have strikingly similar results. The point is that pre Cooley/Wojo the two programs had strikingly different results - Marquette dominated.

If the guy who succeeds Roy Williams at UNC goes .500 against a new coach at Wake Forest and both become middle of the pack ACC teams they won't be considered "equals". The former gets fired, the latter (if he isn't poached by a better program) gets a statue.

[5DollarPitcher]

Cooley and Wojo have had strikingly similar results. Whether that's good enough for Scoopers is an altogether different discussion/debate. But to paint Cooley as a big success story and Wojo as a comparative failure (or vice versa) is just dopey. They are 6-6 against each other. That's pretty fitting. I want better from my MU coach, but again that isn't what people are discussing when they falsely claim that Cooley has outperformed Wojo.

Providence was 66-102 in conference in the decade leading up to Cooley.

Marquette was 107-67 in conference in the decade leading up to Wojo.

The fact that the two have converged in the middle should clear up your confusion as to why Cooley is held in higher regard.

If we have a race that's 3 miles long and you start a half mile behind me, but we still tie - I think it's safe to say you outperformed me.

[The Sultan]

Providence was 66-102 in conference in the decade leading up to Cooley.

Marquette was 107-67 in conference in the decade leading up to Wojo.

The fact that the two have converged in the middle should clear up your confusion as to why Cooley is held in higher regard.

If we have a race that's 3 miles long and you start a half mile behind me, but we still tie - I think it's safe to say you outperformed me.

Maybe in year two or three.  But both coaches have plateaued at the same place.

[bilsu]

Lenny

Great post. Both guys had starting points and Wojo has taken MU backwards and Cooley has moved Providence upwards. Let's face it, Wojo really has not accomplished any team success for the program. Has won some recruiting battles and has run a very clean program and that deserves to be acknowledged. Other than that, basically a bust.

Buzz was much more successful on the court, but the University was not happy with the other stuff. As fans we want to win. The University is more concern with the image and I think this is appropriate. However, that does not mean we should strive for both goals.

Basically, I am not in the fire Wojo camp, because I do not have faith in the University successfully replacing him. We are most likely going to hire some unproven assistant coach.

[5DollarPitcher]

Maybe in year two or three.  But both coaches have plateaued at the same place.

Year 2 or 3?  Wasn't the ProJo mantra 5 years to judge?  Also Ed Cooley has a BET championship and 5 tournament appearances in his first 7 years.  Wojo has 2 tournament appearances (that probably could have been 3) and horrible showings in almost every BET.

[Hards Alumni]

Buzz was much more successful on the court, but the University was not happy with the other stuff. As fans we want to win. The University is more concern with the image and I think this is appropriate. However, that does not mean we should strive for both goals.

Basically, I am not in the fire Wojo camp, because I do not have faith in the University successfully replacing him. We are most likely going to hire some unproven assistant coach.

2 of the last 3 of those turned out to be pretty good.

[BM1090]

2 of the last 3 of those turned out to be pretty good.

And the third hasn't been a disaster, just below expectations. I'm pretty confident that MU would hire an unproven assistant who would at minimum maintain the current results.

[MU82]

Mike

You're right that they have strikingly similar results. The point is that pre Cooley/Wojo the two programs had strikingly different results - Marquette dominated.

If the guy who succeeds Roy Williams at UNC goes .500 against a new coach at Wake Forest and both become middle of the pack ACC teams they won't be considered "equals". The former gets fired, the latter (if he isn't poached by a better program) gets a statue.

Providence was 66-102 in conference in the decade leading up to Cooley.

Marquette was 107-67 in conference in the decade leading up to Wojo.

The fact that the two have converged in the middle should clear up your confusion as to why Cooley is held in higher regard.

If we have a race that's 3 miles long and you start a half mile behind me, but we still tie - I think it's safe to say you outperformed me.

Some good points by both of you.

Although I expect the Marquette coach to do better than the Providence coach (regardless of their names) and Wojo has not done so, I still see little evidence that Cooley has been "better."

I mean, Wojo is the worst coach in the history of mankind, and Cooley is only 6-6 against him. Nuff said ... Cooley should get fired immediately just for that total ineptitude!

Seriously, thanks for the interesting debate.

[Hards Alumni]

Some good points by both of you.

Although I expect the Marquette coach to do better than the Providence coach (regardless of their names) and Wojo has not done so, I still see little evidence that Cooley has been "better."

I mean, Wojo is the worst coach in the history of mankind, and Cooley is only 6-6 against him. Nuff said ... Cooley should get fired immediately just for that total ineptitude!

Seriously, thanks for the interesting debate.

Agreed.  We should never aspire to be on par with Providence.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Some good points by both of you.

Although I expect the Marquette coach to do better than the Providence coach (regardless of their names) and Wojo has not done so, I still see little evidence that Cooley has been "better."

I mean, Wojo is the worst coach in the history of mankind, and Cooley is only 6-6 against him. Nuff said ... Cooley should get fired immediately just for that total ineptitude!

Seriously, thanks for the interesting debate.

Should we be more concerned that Wojo is 9-4 versus DePaul than 6-6 versus PC?  Just askin'?

[MU82]

Should we be more concerned that Wojo is 9-4 versus DePaul than 6-6 versus PC?  Just askin'?

Probably.

We really should be concerned- period. Wojo has not done well enough.

[Galway Eagle]

Should we be more concerned that Wojo is 9-4 versus DePaul than 6-6 versus PC?  Just askin'?

I'm mostly concerned about the depaul issue. There's fair to good case that Depaul has kept us out of the tournament once and arguable twice. Losing those games often as they have seems like lack of preparation.

[79Warrior]

Lenny

Great post. Both guys had starting points and Wojo has taken MU backwards and Cooley has moved Providence upwards. Let's face it, Wojo really has not accomplished any team success for the program. Has won some recruiting battles and has run a very clean program and that deserves to be acknowledged. Other than that, basically a bust.

Don't post that on Dodds site or you will be banned for life!!