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Marquette
Marquette

Madness

Date/Time: Oct 16, 2020?
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Schedule for 2019-20
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Author Topic: Athletic* article  (Read 4067 times)

#UnleashDiener

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2020, 01:46:35 PM »
It's good to have another discussion about the Hausers. It would have more legitimacy if it included mention of their poor shooting the last 10 games of their respective Marquette careers.

The last game of their careers had Howard going something like 1 of 17. But this topic has been beat to death. The hausers would have made Marquette a much better then, end discussion


Opps forgot about that debacle against Murray state m

mumi27

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2020, 02:02:28 PM »
It's good to have another discussion about the Hausers. It would have more legitimacy if it included mention of their poor shooting the last 10 games of their respective Marquette careers.

If you want to see a poor shooting end to a Marquette player's career then check out Bailey's game logs after the home Butler game

TallTitan34

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2020, 02:45:26 PM »

Eh.  We're fine without him.  Sam I missed.  His brother?  Nah.

Dumb take.

FWIW, I don't think Dawson picks MU if Joey is still here.
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Loose Cannon

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2020, 03:17:49 PM »
If Markus was so difficult to play with, why didn't Andrew Rowsey have similar issues? Why did Sam score as much as he did? Yes, we had a dynamic scorer that dominated the ball, but other scorers were able to fit in and score around him too. I would love to see Koby burst out this next year, but the feeling I got was that it was less about Markus dominating the ball and more Koby failing to take advantages of his chances when they came.

His eFG% was 41.2%. Markus' was 53.0%. Did anyone really want Markus to sacrifice shots for McEwen? I can see the argument for the bigs as both John & Johnson had respectable eFG%. I can even see it for Bailey or Anim, who were closer to Markus in terms of efficiency and it would diversify the offense a bit. Koby...I want the kid to succeed, but his problem wasn't having Markus alongside him, it was that he didn't perform at the level we need him to in order to be a high-level Big East player.

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Its DJOver

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2020, 03:19:39 PM »
FWIW, I don't think Dawson picks MU if Joey is still here.

This.  Plus if Joey had just committed to MSU out of HS, I don't think Sam leaves.

brewcity77

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2020, 03:35:30 PM »
Both can be true - Koby could have played better, shot better, yet it also is true that a players offensive game can be affected by playing with a ball/shot hog of historic/unprecedented proportions.

As for Rowsey - He was the PG while playing with Markus, and as a result had the ball in his hands a lot more than an off guard would.  Sam and Joey leaving speaks for itself as to how players feel about playing with a shot hog.

All of this doesn't mean Markus wasn't sublimely talented, yet the team results weren't great.

Sure, both can be true, but I don't think Koby is who I would give the benefit of the doubt to here. If he wants more shots, shoot better. When Koby was on, the team did very well. The problem is that he was off more often than he was on, and that's just from a shooting perspective (his TO Rate was also bad).

I just feel like this is trying to squeeze a new narrative. In the past, it was that people didn't get enough minutes. Koby got a ton of minutes, yet still couldn't settle in so we'll accept the "Markus was too high usage" argument.

The reality is he didn't shoot well, he turned it over too much, and he was a player who very clearly would compound mistakes when his confidence was damaged, which was pretty frequent.

I really want Koby to succeed. I love how he represents Marquette and feel that he is a fierce competitor and leader on and off the court. But his issues were not because of minutes or Markus or the system, it was what he did, or more accurately did not do, when given ample opportunities. I would like to see that change, but simply removing the best scorer in program history from his side isn't what I would expect would do that. In all honesty, Koby may struggle more without Markus because defenses will now be keyed on him.
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Its DJOver

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2020, 03:42:59 PM »
Any of the advanced stats guys know if there is any info about how Koby performed when playing alongside Markus versus when Markus was out?  I know some may always make the argument that he might not gotten enough of a run with Markus out of the game to really settle, it'd just be interesting to see if there are any numbers out there for/against either argument.

brewcity77

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2020, 03:44:46 PM »
Any of the advanced stats guys know if there is any info about how Koby performed when playing alongside Markus versus when Markus was out?  I know some may always make the argument that he might not gotten enough of a run with Markus out of the game to really settle, it'd just be interesting to see if there are any numbers out there for/against either argument.

I think you'd have to break that down personally. Synergy doesn't offer that, at least not at my subscription level.
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Its DJOver

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2020, 03:46:48 PM »
I think you'd have to break that down personally. Synergy doesn't offer that, at least not at my subscription level.

Someone get PT, or AE on the line, I got a project for them  ;D

asdfasdf

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2020, 08:51:31 PM »

bilsu

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2020, 08:19:48 AM »
If Markus was so difficult to play with, why didn't Andrew Rowsey have similar issues? Why did Sam score as much as he did? Yes, we had a dynamic scorer that dominated the ball, but other scorers were able to fit in and score around him too. I would love to see Koby burst out this next year, but the feeling I got was that it was less about Markus dominating the ball and more Koby failing to take advantages of his chances when they came.

His eFG% was 41.2%. Markus' was 53.0%. Did anyone really want Markus to sacrifice shots for McEwen? I can see the argument for the bigs as both John & Johnson had respectable eFG%. I can even see it for Bailey or Anim, who were closer to Markus in terms of efficiency and it would diversify the offense a bit. Koby...I want the kid to succeed, but his problem wasn't having Markus alongside him, it was that he didn't perform at the level we need him to in order to be a high-level Big East player.
Rowsey was the point guard, so he had the ball a lot. However, he rarely got the ball back after he gave it to Markus. I enjoyed watching Markus last year as I was rooting for him to score. However, he was not a money player when the game was on the line. I posted before the start of last season that Markus was not a clutch player. Many posters disagreed with me. However, the season proved that I was correct in that observation.

Markus was an amazing player, but we were never going to be really good with him.

bilsu

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2020, 08:22:50 AM »
Any of the advanced stats guys know if there is any info about how Koby performed when playing alongside Markus versus when Markus was out?  I know some may always make the argument that he might not gotten enough of a run with Markus out of the game to really settle, it'd just be interesting to see if there are any numbers out there for/against either argument.
Just my observation, but it seemed to me at the end of games when Markus was not on the floor Koby was more effective in hitting the clutch shot.

HutchwasClutch

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2020, 08:26:00 AM »
Rowsey was the point guard, so he had the ball a lot. However, he rarely got the ball back after he gave it to Markus. I enjoyed watching Markus last year as I was rooting for him to score. However, he was not a money player when the game was on the line. I posted before the start of last season that Markus was not a clutch player. Many posters disagreed with me. However, the season proved that I was correct in that observation.

Markus was an amazing player, but we were never going to be really good with him.

Sure, “amazing” players often have that effect on their teams.  Got to find the ordinary and crappy players if you want to sniff being “really good”.  I’ll stop myself there from my head exploding further at this take.

Do you care to hazard a guess our record without him these last 4 years, especially last year where no one proved capable of being a quality 2nd option?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 08:35:06 AM by HutchwasClutch »

Shooter McGavin

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2020, 09:38:48 AM »
Unfortunately this is one big circular argument.  Markus was an elite scorer and an incredible representative of the university.  However his style of play led to the transfer of two really good players and perhaps the underperformance of teammates (as some would argue) that led to underperformance as a unit (as some would argue).

There is no doubt we would have been terrible without him last year especially with Sam and Joey gone but possibly a better “team” if Sam and Joey stayed and Markus went pro.

Ultimately we will never know and everyone will have their opinion about it.  I wish Markus nothing but the best but am also glad the era is over and we have a chance to see what our team looks like without him. 

Chris Thomas who scored greater than 2,000 points at ND is a decent comp to Markus Howard and ND had similar results during his tenure with the exception of one sweet sixteen.  An objective person watching that ND team would never have thought they were going anywhere in the tournament but would easily make it. Many ND fans I know were glad when the Chris Thomas era was over as well.


mumi27

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2020, 11:00:42 AM »
I’ll stop myself there from my head exploding further at this take.

Mine already did from how godawful his take was and the confidence with which he said.

Just my observation, but it seemed to me at the end of games when Markus was not on the floor Koby was more effective in hitting the clutch shot.

You’re basing your entire opinion around the second Xavier game.

marqfan22

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2020, 08:48:00 AM »
Unfortunately this is one big circular argument.  Markus was an elite scorer and an incredible representative of the university.  However his style of play led to the transfer of two really good players and perhaps the underperformance of teammates (as some would argue) that led to underperformance as a unit (as some would argue).



There is no doubt we would have been terrible without him last year especially with Sam and Joey gone but possibly a better “team” if Sam and Joey stayed and Markus went pro.

Ultimately we will never know and everyone will have their opinion about it.  I wish Markus nothing but the best but am also glad the era is over and we have a chance to see what our team looks like without him. 

Chris Thomas who scored greater than 2,000 points at ND is a decent comp to Markus Howard and ND had similar results during his tenure with the exception of one sweet sixteen.  An objective person watching that ND team would never have thought they were going anywhere in the tournament but would easily make it. Many ND fans I know were glad when the Chris Thomas era was over as well.

Sam Hauser would have stayed at MU if Joey wasn’t unhappy.

lawdog77

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2020, 08:56:40 AM »
Unfortunately this is one big circular argument.  Markus was an elite scorer and an incredible representative of the university.  However his style of play led to the transfer of two really good players and perhaps the underperformance of teammates (as some would argue) that led to underperformance as a unit (as some would argue).

There is no doubt we would have been terrible without him last year especially with Sam and Joey gone but possibly a better “team” if Sam and Joey stayed and Markus went pro.

Ultimately we will never know and everyone will have their opinion about it.  I wish Markus nothing but the best but am also glad the era is over and we have a chance to see what our team looks like without him. 

Chris Thomas who scored greater than 2,000 points at ND is a decent comp to Markus Howard and ND had similar results during his tenure with the exception of one sweet sixteen.  An objective person watching that ND team would never have thought they were going anywhere in the tournament but would easily make it. Many ND fans I know were glad when the Chris Thomas era was over as well.
A better comparison for Chris Thomas would be Dominic James. His stats went markedly down his senior year.

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2020, 03:36:26 PM »
The last game of their careers had Howard going something like 1 of 17. But this topic has been beat to death. The hausers would have made Marquette a much better then, end discussion


Opps forgot about that debacle against Murray state m

Thanks for making my point. You ignore the below average shooting of the Hausers to end the season to take a shot at Howard. Delegitimizes the discussion.

PuertoRicanNightmare

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2020, 07:41:59 PM »
Unfortunately this is one big circular argument.  Markus was an elite scorer and an incredible representative of the university.  However his style of play led to the transfer of two really good players and perhaps the underperformance of teammates (as some would argue) that led to underperformance as a unit (as some would argue).

There is no doubt we would have been terrible without him last year especially with Sam and Joey gone but possibly a better “team” if Sam and Joey stayed and Markus went pro.

Ultimately we will never know and everyone will have their opinion about it.  I wish Markus nothing but the best but am also glad the era is over and we have a chance to see what our team looks like without him. 

Chris Thomas who scored greater than 2,000 points at ND is a decent comp to Markus Howard and ND had similar results during his tenure with the exception of one sweet sixteen.  An objective person watching that ND team would never have thought they were going anywhere in the tournament but would easily make it. Many ND fans I know were glad when the Chris Thomas era was over as well.
Spot on. I’d rather watch Marquette have success than watch Markus Howard score 45 points, even if it’s somewhat entertaining for an hour and a half.

MUDPT

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2020, 10:05:17 PM »
Unfortunately this is one big circular argument.  Markus was an elite scorer and an incredible representative of the university.  However his style of play led to the transfer of two really good players and perhaps the underperformance of teammates (as some would argue) that led to underperformance as a unit (as some would argue).

There is no doubt we would have been terrible without him last year especially with Sam and Joey gone but possibly a better “team” if Sam and Joey stayed and Markus went pro.

Ultimately we will never know and everyone will have their opinion about it.  I wish Markus nothing but the best but am also glad the era is over and we have a chance to see what our team looks like without him. 

Chris Thomas who scored greater than 2,000 points at ND is a decent comp to Markus Howard and ND had similar results during his tenure with the exception of one sweet sixteen.  An objective person watching that ND team would never have thought they were going anywhere in the tournament but would easily make it. Many ND fans I know were glad when the Chris Thomas era was over as well.

Funny, the only ND Chris Thomas memory I have is the behind the back pass to Danny Miller? for a dunk against us in December 2002.

Shooter McGavin

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2020, 08:11:16 AM »
That was annoying that we lost to ND that year.  I was at that game.  The final four run took the sting out of it though.

#UnleashDiener

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2020, 08:34:43 AM »
Thanks for making my point. You ignore the below average shooting of the Hausers to end the season to take a shot at Howard. Delegitimizes the discussion.

No..... God you are blind. At the end of the day, Marquette would have been a better team last year minus Howard and plus the Hausers. Marquette would have been even better had it been Howard and the Hausers.

BLM

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2020, 08:46:02 AM »
No..... God you are blind. At the end of the day, Marquette would have been a better team last year minus Howard and plus the Hausers. Marquette would have been even better had it been Howard and the Hausers.

Would we have been better with the Hausers and not with Markus? Who creates a shot on that team? Koby is your full time ball handler. Although some say the Hausers play a great point guard, so maybe.
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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2020, 08:55:31 AM »
No..... God you are blind. At the end of the day, Marquette would have been a better team last year minus Howard and plus the Hausers.


What?
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MUMonster03

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Re: Athletic* article
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2020, 01:57:21 AM »
Everyone always talks about how high use Markus was.

Has any team ever won a championship with anyone near that use rate, or reached the final four?

I would imagine most FF and NC teans are much more balanced.  Markus was fun to watch but as many have mentioned we have little to show for that all-time leading scorer (2 (Probably 3 if the season finished) NCAA's, 1 NIT, 0 NCAA wins)