MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: jesmu84 on September 10, 2020, 06:44:07 PM
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https://theathletic.com/2024694/2020/09/10/its-year-1-a-m-after-markus-and-marquette-is-prepared-to-change/?amp
Did I miss discussion about this?
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Koby making more and more friends !
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I wish Koby would have just come out and said that he played poorly last season. I'm sure that Markus is tough to play with in one way or another but to seemingly place a lot of the blame on playing with a high usage guard is an excuse and a bad look. The guy needs to play better but I have many doubts even with Markus gone.
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If the Athletic (not Atlantic) has a word count target for each D1 team for the year, this article probably filled the quota!
Now we cannot complain about lack of MU coverage there any longer.
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I mean, maybe he shouldn't have said it out loud, but he's not entirely wrong either. Playing alongside someone like Markus is a challenge and requires no small amount of self-sacrifice and adjustment. You may recall, a couple of kids transferred from Marquette because they didn't want to do it.
I don't think it excuses some of his poor play, mind you, but those aren't false statements either.
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Assuming we have a season (sorry - had to say it), Koby has set the bar high for what fans will expect from him....
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I would accept his reasoning more if he didn't end last season with a 41.2 eFG%. That is objectively awful no matter which way you look at it, especially with how much he played
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I mean, maybe he shouldn't have said it out loud, but he's not entirely wrong either. Playing alongside someone like Markus is a challenge and requires no small amount of self-sacrifice and adjustment. You may recall, a couple of kids transferred from Marquette because they didn't want to do it.
I don't think it excuses some of his poor play, mind you, but those aren't false statements either.
If Markus was easy to play with Joey would be a Junior.
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Interesting.
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Joey played well and transferred because Markus dominated the ball. Koby played poorly and tried to partially explain it away by pointing out who he played with. These are not 1:1 situations. I am hoping and willing to believe he can be good but he will have to be a lot better than last season to get to that point
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If Markus was easy to play with Joey would be a Junior.
Eh. We're fine without him. Sam I missed. His brother? Nah.
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Eh. We're fine without him. Sam I missed. His brother? Nah.
I’m curious Joey’s feelings on Izzo deciding to play the one and done game
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If Markus was easy to play with Joey would be a Junior.
And Sam would have finished in the top 10 all-time in scoring and rebounding.
It's not easy to play with a guy who monopolizes the ball. You can acknowledge that and appreciate Markus' immense talent.
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And Sam would have finished in the top 10 all-time in scoring and rebounding.
It's not easy to play with a guy who monopolizes the ball. You can acknowledge that and appreciate Markus' immense talent.
Well said. Didn't necessarily help matters that Steve insisted "Markus has the ultimate green light. We want Markus to shoot more."
Attached pic of Koby..saw this same image with Sam, Joey, etc. Hundreds of times.
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Looks like Koby is signaling a made 3 by Markus.
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If Markus was so difficult to play with, why didn't Andrew Rowsey have similar issues? Why did Sam score as much as he did? Yes, we had a dynamic scorer that dominated the ball, but other scorers were able to fit in and score around him too. I would love to see Koby burst out this next year, but the feeling I got was that it was less about Markus dominating the ball and more Koby failing to take advantages of his chances when they came.
His eFG% was 41.2%. Markus' was 53.0%. Did anyone really want Markus to sacrifice shots for McEwen? I can see the argument for the bigs as both John & Johnson had respectable eFG%. I can even see it for Bailey or Anim, who were closer to Markus in terms of efficiency and it would diversify the offense a bit. Koby...I want the kid to succeed, but his problem wasn't having Markus alongside him, it was that he didn't perform at the level we need him to in order to be a high-level Big East player.
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I mean, maybe he shouldn't have said it out loud, but he's not entirely wrong either. Playing alongside someone like Markus is a challenge and requires no small amount of self-sacrifice and adjustment. You may recall, a couple of kids transferred from Marquette because they didn't want to do it.
I don't think it excuses some of his poor play, mind you, but those aren't false statements either.
This man with the voice of reason
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Eh. We're fine without him. Sam I missed. His brother? Nah.
Dumb take.
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Looks like Koby is signaling a made 3 by Markus.
Little hard to have made a three pointer when the fall is on the bottom right.
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Dumb take.
I don't think we missed him much last year, and feel our front court talent will be better this year.
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Joey did not want to be here, so we move on. To dismiss his talent is rather silly talk though. Kid can play.
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It's good to have another discussion about the Hausers. It would have more legitimacy if it included mention of their poor shooting the last 10 games of their respective Marquette careers.
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Dumb take.
Not so dumb.
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If Markus was so difficult to play with, why didn't Andrew Rowsey have similar issues? Why did Sam score as much as he did? Yes, we had a dynamic scorer that dominated the ball, but other scorers were able to fit in and score around him too. I would love to see Koby burst out this next year, but the feeling I got was that it was less about Markus dominating the ball and more Koby failing to take advantages of his chances when they came.
His eFG% was 41.2%. Markus' was 53.0%. Did anyone really want Markus to sacrifice shots for McEwen? I can see the argument for the bigs as both John & Johnson had respectable eFG%. I can even see it for Bailey or Anim, who were closer to Markus in terms of efficiency and it would diversify the offense a bit. Koby...I want the kid to succeed, but his problem wasn't having Markus alongside him, it was that he didn't perform at the level we need him to in order to be a high-level Big East player.
Both can be true - Koby could have played better, shot better, yet it also is true that a players offensive game can be affected by playing with a ball/shot hog of historic/unprecedented proportions.
As for Rowsey - He was the PG while playing with Markus, and as a result had the ball in his hands a lot more than an off guard would. Sam and Joey leaving speaks for itself as to how players feel about playing with a shot hog.
All of this doesn't mean Markus wasn't sublimely talented, yet the team results weren't great.
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It's good to have another discussion about the Hausers. It would have more legitimacy if it included mention of their poor shooting the last 10 games of their respective Marquette careers.
Not all 10 for sure. Big thing was the last 3 regular season games against Creighton, @SHU and G-Town as well as the Murray St. fiasco. Their #s were decent other than those pivotal games. The disheartening loss at Nova was a huge turning point. My last thought on the subject as we move on to the future (whenever that might start).
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It's good to have another discussion about the Hausers. It would have more legitimacy if it included mention of their poor shooting the last 10 games of their respective Marquette careers.
The last game of their careers had Howard going something like 1 of 17. But this topic has been beat to death. The hausers would have made Marquette a much better then, end discussion
Opps forgot about that debacle against Murray state m
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It's good to have another discussion about the Hausers. It would have more legitimacy if it included mention of their poor shooting the last 10 games of their respective Marquette careers.
If you want to see a poor shooting end to a Marquette player's career then check out Bailey's game logs after the home Butler game
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Eh. We're fine without him. Sam I missed. His brother? Nah.
Dumb take.
FWIW, I don't think Dawson picks MU if Joey is still here.
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If Markus was so difficult to play with, why didn't Andrew Rowsey have similar issues? Why did Sam score as much as he did? Yes, we had a dynamic scorer that dominated the ball, but other scorers were able to fit in and score around him too. I would love to see Koby burst out this next year, but the feeling I got was that it was less about Markus dominating the ball and more Koby failing to take advantages of his chances when they came.
His eFG% was 41.2%. Markus' was 53.0%. Did anyone really want Markus to sacrifice shots for McEwen? I can see the argument for the bigs as both John & Johnson had respectable eFG%. I can even see it for Bailey or Anim, who were closer to Markus in terms of efficiency and it would diversify the offense a bit. Koby...I want the kid to succeed, but his problem wasn't having Markus alongside him, it was that he didn't perform at the level we need him to in order to be a high-level Big East player.
Plus Tax
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FWIW, I don't think Dawson picks MU if Joey is still here.
This. Plus if Joey had just committed to MSU out of HS, I don't think Sam leaves.
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Both can be true - Koby could have played better, shot better, yet it also is true that a players offensive game can be affected by playing with a ball/shot hog of historic/unprecedented proportions.
As for Rowsey - He was the PG while playing with Markus, and as a result had the ball in his hands a lot more than an off guard would. Sam and Joey leaving speaks for itself as to how players feel about playing with a shot hog.
All of this doesn't mean Markus wasn't sublimely talented, yet the team results weren't great.
Sure, both can be true, but I don't think Koby is who I would give the benefit of the doubt to here. If he wants more shots, shoot better. When Koby was on, the team did very well. The problem is that he was off more often than he was on, and that's just from a shooting perspective (his TO Rate was also bad).
I just feel like this is trying to squeeze a new narrative. In the past, it was that people didn't get enough minutes. Koby got a ton of minutes, yet still couldn't settle in so we'll accept the "Markus was too high usage" argument.
The reality is he didn't shoot well, he turned it over too much, and he was a player who very clearly would compound mistakes when his confidence was damaged, which was pretty frequent.
I really want Koby to succeed. I love how he represents Marquette and feel that he is a fierce competitor and leader on and off the court. But his issues were not because of minutes or Markus or the system, it was what he did, or more accurately did not do, when given ample opportunities. I would like to see that change, but simply removing the best scorer in program history from his side isn't what I would expect would do that. In all honesty, Koby may struggle more without Markus because defenses will now be keyed on him.
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Any of the advanced stats guys know if there is any info about how Koby performed when playing alongside Markus versus when Markus was out? I know some may always make the argument that he might not gotten enough of a run with Markus out of the game to really settle, it'd just be interesting to see if there are any numbers out there for/against either argument.
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Any of the advanced stats guys know if there is any info about how Koby performed when playing alongside Markus versus when Markus was out? I know some may always make the argument that he might not gotten enough of a run with Markus out of the game to really settle, it'd just be interesting to see if there are any numbers out there for/against either argument.
I think you'd have to break that down personally. Synergy doesn't offer that, at least not at my subscription level.
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I think you'd have to break that down personally. Synergy doesn't offer that, at least not at my subscription level.
Someone get PT, or AE on the line, I got a project for them ;D
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If I remember correctly, you can use this website to look at how a team performs with different combinations of players.
https://hoop-explorer.com/?autoOffQuery=true&baseQuery=&gender=Men&maxRank=400&minRank=0&offQuery=NOT%20%28koby%20%22McEwen%2C%20Koby%22%20%29&onQuery=koby%20%22McEwen%2C%20Koby%22%20&team=Marquette&year=2019%2F20&
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If Markus was so difficult to play with, why didn't Andrew Rowsey have similar issues? Why did Sam score as much as he did? Yes, we had a dynamic scorer that dominated the ball, but other scorers were able to fit in and score around him too. I would love to see Koby burst out this next year, but the feeling I got was that it was less about Markus dominating the ball and more Koby failing to take advantages of his chances when they came.
His eFG% was 41.2%. Markus' was 53.0%. Did anyone really want Markus to sacrifice shots for McEwen? I can see the argument for the bigs as both John & Johnson had respectable eFG%. I can even see it for Bailey or Anim, who were closer to Markus in terms of efficiency and it would diversify the offense a bit. Koby...I want the kid to succeed, but his problem wasn't having Markus alongside him, it was that he didn't perform at the level we need him to in order to be a high-level Big East player.
Rowsey was the point guard, so he had the ball a lot. However, he rarely got the ball back after he gave it to Markus. I enjoyed watching Markus last year as I was rooting for him to score. However, he was not a money player when the game was on the line. I posted before the start of last season that Markus was not a clutch player. Many posters disagreed with me. However, the season proved that I was correct in that observation.
Markus was an amazing player, but we were never going to be really good with him.
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Any of the advanced stats guys know if there is any info about how Koby performed when playing alongside Markus versus when Markus was out? I know some may always make the argument that he might not gotten enough of a run with Markus out of the game to really settle, it'd just be interesting to see if there are any numbers out there for/against either argument.
Just my observation, but it seemed to me at the end of games when Markus was not on the floor Koby was more effective in hitting the clutch shot.
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Rowsey was the point guard, so he had the ball a lot. However, he rarely got the ball back after he gave it to Markus. I enjoyed watching Markus last year as I was rooting for him to score. However, he was not a money player when the game was on the line. I posted before the start of last season that Markus was not a clutch player. Many posters disagreed with me. However, the season proved that I was correct in that observation.
Markus was an amazing player, but we were never going to be really good with him.
Sure, “amazing” players often have that effect on their teams. Got to find the ordinary and crappy players if you want to sniff being “really good”. I’ll stop myself there from my head exploding further at this take.
Do you care to hazard a guess our record without him these last 4 years, especially last year where no one proved capable of being a quality 2nd option?
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Unfortunately this is one big circular argument. Markus was an elite scorer and an incredible representative of the university. However his style of play led to the transfer of two really good players and perhaps the underperformance of teammates (as some would argue) that led to underperformance as a unit (as some would argue).
There is no doubt we would have been terrible without him last year especially with Sam and Joey gone but possibly a better “team” if Sam and Joey stayed and Markus went pro.
Ultimately we will never know and everyone will have their opinion about it. I wish Markus nothing but the best but am also glad the era is over and we have a chance to see what our team looks like without him.
Chris Thomas who scored greater than 2,000 points at ND is a decent comp to Markus Howard and ND had similar results during his tenure with the exception of one sweet sixteen. An objective person watching that ND team would never have thought they were going anywhere in the tournament but would easily make it. Many ND fans I know were glad when the Chris Thomas era was over as well.
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I’ll stop myself there from my head exploding further at this take.
Mine already did from how godawful his take was and the confidence with which he said.
Just my observation, but it seemed to me at the end of games when Markus was not on the floor Koby was more effective in hitting the clutch shot.
You’re basing your entire opinion around the second Xavier game.
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Unfortunately this is one big circular argument. Markus was an elite scorer and an incredible representative of the university. However his style of play led to the transfer of two really good players and perhaps the underperformance of teammates (as some would argue) that led to underperformance as a unit (as some would argue).
There is no doubt we would have been terrible without him last year especially with Sam and Joey gone but possibly a better “team” if Sam and Joey stayed and Markus went pro.
Ultimately we will never know and everyone will have their opinion about it. I wish Markus nothing but the best but am also glad the era is over and we have a chance to see what our team looks like without him.
Chris Thomas who scored greater than 2,000 points at ND is a decent comp to Markus Howard and ND had similar results during his tenure with the exception of one sweet sixteen. An objective person watching that ND team would never have thought they were going anywhere in the tournament but would easily make it. Many ND fans I know were glad when the Chris Thomas era was over as well.
Sam Hauser would have stayed at MU if Joey wasn’t unhappy.
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Unfortunately this is one big circular argument. Markus was an elite scorer and an incredible representative of the university. However his style of play led to the transfer of two really good players and perhaps the underperformance of teammates (as some would argue) that led to underperformance as a unit (as some would argue).
There is no doubt we would have been terrible without him last year especially with Sam and Joey gone but possibly a better “team” if Sam and Joey stayed and Markus went pro.
Ultimately we will never know and everyone will have their opinion about it. I wish Markus nothing but the best but am also glad the era is over and we have a chance to see what our team looks like without him.
Chris Thomas who scored greater than 2,000 points at ND is a decent comp to Markus Howard and ND had similar results during his tenure with the exception of one sweet sixteen. An objective person watching that ND team would never have thought they were going anywhere in the tournament but would easily make it. Many ND fans I know were glad when the Chris Thomas era was over as well.
A better comparison for Chris Thomas would be Dominic James. His stats went markedly down his senior year.
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The last game of their careers had Howard going something like 1 of 17. But this topic has been beat to death. The hausers would have made Marquette a much better then, end discussion
Opps forgot about that debacle against Murray state m
Thanks for making my point. You ignore the below average shooting of the Hausers to end the season to take a shot at Howard. Delegitimizes the discussion.
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Unfortunately this is one big circular argument. Markus was an elite scorer and an incredible representative of the university. However his style of play led to the transfer of two really good players and perhaps the underperformance of teammates (as some would argue) that led to underperformance as a unit (as some would argue).
There is no doubt we would have been terrible without him last year especially with Sam and Joey gone but possibly a better “team” if Sam and Joey stayed and Markus went pro.
Ultimately we will never know and everyone will have their opinion about it. I wish Markus nothing but the best but am also glad the era is over and we have a chance to see what our team looks like without him.
Chris Thomas who scored greater than 2,000 points at ND is a decent comp to Markus Howard and ND had similar results during his tenure with the exception of one sweet sixteen. An objective person watching that ND team would never have thought they were going anywhere in the tournament but would easily make it. Many ND fans I know were glad when the Chris Thomas era was over as well.
Spot on. I’d rather watch Marquette have success than watch Markus Howard score 45 points, even if it’s somewhat entertaining for an hour and a half.
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Unfortunately this is one big circular argument. Markus was an elite scorer and an incredible representative of the university. However his style of play led to the transfer of two really good players and perhaps the underperformance of teammates (as some would argue) that led to underperformance as a unit (as some would argue).
There is no doubt we would have been terrible without him last year especially with Sam and Joey gone but possibly a better “team” if Sam and Joey stayed and Markus went pro.
Ultimately we will never know and everyone will have their opinion about it. I wish Markus nothing but the best but am also glad the era is over and we have a chance to see what our team looks like without him.
Chris Thomas who scored greater than 2,000 points at ND is a decent comp to Markus Howard and ND had similar results during his tenure with the exception of one sweet sixteen. An objective person watching that ND team would never have thought they were going anywhere in the tournament but would easily make it. Many ND fans I know were glad when the Chris Thomas era was over as well.
Funny, the only ND Chris Thomas memory I have is the behind the back pass to Danny Miller? for a dunk against us in December 2002.
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That was annoying that we lost to ND that year. I was at that game. The final four run took the sting out of it though.
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Thanks for making my point. You ignore the below average shooting of the Hausers to end the season to take a shot at Howard. Delegitimizes the discussion.
No..... God you are blind. At the end of the day, Marquette would have been a better team last year minus Howard and plus the Hausers. Marquette would have been even better had it been Howard and the Hausers.
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No..... God you are blind. At the end of the day, Marquette would have been a better team last year minus Howard and plus the Hausers. Marquette would have been even better had it been Howard and the Hausers.
Would we have been better with the Hausers and not with Markus? Who creates a shot on that team? Koby is your full time ball handler. Although some say the Hausers play a great point guard, so maybe.
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No..... God you are blind. At the end of the day, Marquette would have been a better team last year minus Howard and plus the Hausers.
What?
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Everyone always talks about how high use Markus was.
Has any team ever won a championship with anyone near that use rate, or reached the final four?
I would imagine most FF and NC teans are much more balanced. Markus was fun to watch but as many have mentioned we have little to show for that all-time leading scorer (2 (Probably 3 if the season finished) NCAA's, 1 NIT, 0 NCAA wins)
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Everyone always talks about how high use Markus was.
Has any team ever won a championship with anyone near that use rate, or reached the final four?
I would imagine most FF and NC teans are much more balanced. Markus was fun to watch but as many have mentioned we have little to show for that all-time leading scorer (2 (Probably 3 if the season finished) NCAA's, 1 NIT, 0 NCAA wins)
I'd imagine Kemba Walker during the tournament was roughly his usage.
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Howard last year according to Ken Pom - 40.3 of MU's shots, 1st in country
Walker in '11 - 32.9 percent of shots, 26th in country
Howard 6th most since Ken Pom began tracking in 2004, 1st among players on top 6 leagues teams
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Howard last year according to Ken Pom - 40.3 of MU's shots, 1st in country
Walker in '11 - 32.9 percent of shots, 26th in country
Howard 6th most since Ken Pom began tracking in 2004, 1st among players on top 6 leagues teams
I just said during Kemba's run. Is there a game by game analysis where you can see usage for the NCAA tournament and Big East tournament games?
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Everyone always talks about how high use Markus was.
Has any team ever won a championship with anyone near that use rate, or reached the final four?
Highest usage rates per Pomeroy on a Final Four team by year, with their national ranking in parentheses (bolded won championship):
- 2019: Jarrett Culver, Texas Tech 32.0% (25th)
- 2018: Aundre Jackson, Loyola-Chicago 28.2% (114th)
- 2017: Dillon Brooks, Oregon 30.1% (54th)
- 2016: Buddy Hield, Oklahoma 28.4% (81st)
- 2015: Frank Kaminsky, Wisconsin 28.1% (113th)
- 2014: Shabazz Napier, UConn 28.0% (126th)
- 2013: Russ Smith, Louisville 32.0% (11th)
- 2012: Russ Smith, Louisville, 33.0% (8th)
- 2011: Kemba Walker, UConn 31.4% (20th)
- 2010: Kalin Lucas, Michigan State 25.4% (300th)
- 2009: Tyler Hansbrough, UNC 26.7% (194th)
- 2008: Kevin Love, UCLA 27.7% (144th)
- 2007: Greg Oden, Ohio State 26.3% (203rd)
- 2006: Jordan Farmar, UCLA 30.2% (42nd)
- 2005: Sean May, UNC 28.0% (87th)
- 2004: Tony Allen, Oklahoma State 27.6% (116th)
- 2003: Dwyane Wade, Marquette 34.1% (6th)
- 2002: Drew Gooden, Kansas 28.2% (70th)
The short answer is no, no one has made a Final Four or won a title with Markus' (37.1%) usage rate. But there is precedent for top-20 usage guys like Wade, Russ, and Kemba getting to the Final Four and even winning the title. Maybe worth noting that if we use Wade as the benchmark, Howard was the only high major player with a usage rate higher than Wade's 2003 mark (Myles Powell was next closest at 33.8%).
Looking back at all those teams, it looks like most of the successful teams had multiple players in the 22-28 range, though when you had a truly game-changing talent they could carry you to the final weekend. Maybe Markus would've done just that. More likely not. When you have a guy like that, I get riding him, but I do think that for long-term success, more balance is better.
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The 2019-20 team lost 6 of their last 7 games, and was likely to finish with 2 more consecutive losses (BET & post-season tournament). Koby was a big part of the team's disastrous finish. In the last four games, he had 13 turnovers and 14 points. It's possible the team will be better without Markus, but it won't be due to Koby McEwan.
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The 2019-20 team lost 6 of their last 7 games, and was likely to finish with 2 more consecutive losses (BET & post-season tournament). Koby was a big part of the team's disastrous finish. In the last four games, he had 13 turnovers and 14 points. It's possible the team will be better without Markus, but it won't be due to the Koby McEwan of last year.
FIFY.
I'm always the optimist. Plus, I would assume we cannot see into the future, though admittedly we can make predictions based on past performance (such as 13 turnovers to 14 points...). But, then again, see point #1.
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I feel bad for Markus.
It's not his fault that his coach didn't know when to switch the light from green to yellow and never to red.
Wojo was waving Markus around the bases with every contact. When Markus was on third, Wojo was telling others to bunt him home.
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I feel bad for Markus.
It's not his fault that his coach didn't know when to switch the light from green to yellow and never to red.
Wojo was waving Markus around the bases with every contact. When Markus was on third, Wojo was telling others to bunt him home.
Agree Eldon.
If 40+ usage (and the dissension it is bound to cause) was really the team’s only way to win it’s an indictment on Wojo for not recruiting any other decent players.
And if it wasn’t, it’d an indictment of the strategy itself.
Either way, not good.