Kenosha

[jficke13]

Some nice fantasy you've concocted in your mind 82. None of which is true (other than Trump May get re-elected.)

You do realize being called racist by an ignorant, small-minded man like you doesn't carry any weight? It's par for the course for the intellectually inferior and hypocritical point of view that permeates the "thinking" of radical, left-wing extremist liberals like you.

Your kind are just as reprehensible as the extremist white supremacists on the extreme right.  Neither faction wants to have an honest discussion about race issues in America.

And btw. Of course black lives matter. Just as traditional, western family values do too (in Western culture).

Man you just cannot stop telling us who you are, can you?

[The Sultan]

No easy answers. Pessimistically, hoping we're not moving to civil war.

Of course we aren't.  Just because a few buildings are burning in Kenosha and that there are riots in the streets of Portland doesn't mean we are living with a complete breakdown of law and order.  You are perfectly safe up in the Quon.  Just like my friend in Hawthorn Woods who bragged about stocking up on his ammo during the Michigan Avenue looting.

Just keep things in perspective.

[MU82]

More systemic racism ...

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/banking/article245233685.html?

Wells Fargo will pay $7.8 million in back wages to settle accusations from the federal government that it discriminated against tens of thousands of Black and female job applicants, the U.S. Department of Labor said.

Sexism, too -- two for the price of one!

[Pakuni]

Of course we aren't.  Just because a few buildings are burning in Kenosha and that there are riots in the streets of Portland doesn't mean we are living with a complete breakdown of law and order.  You are perfectly safe up in the Quon.  Just like my friend in Hawthorn Woods who bragged about stocking up on his ammo during the Michigan Avenue looting.

Just keep things in perspective.

Seriously. How would have these people have fared in the 60s/early 70s if they think we're headed toward civil war now?
Political assassinations. Civil rights activists murdered by the hard right. Cops murdered by the hard left. Bombings by domestic terrorists on both sides. Days-long riots that left dozens dead. National guardsmen gunning down college kids. Rioting at a political convention. Oh, and the Vietnam War.
We've been through much worse just in the last 50 years.

[dgies9156]

With all due respect, you've built a big old straw man here. I don't see anyone in this discussion - or in the general public - suggesting anything to the contrary of what you've written. There's no popular demand to strip the cop of his legal rights. Or his union rights. Nobody is demanding extrajudicial punishment. Nobody is trying to drag him out to a tree for a good old fashioned lynching or, you know, shooting him repeatedly in the back.

That said, your comments about how you're not convinced there isn't more to the story is illustrative of the problem we have as a society when it comes to bad policing.
You - like a lot of people, especially non-minorities - just have a hard time grasping the realities of how law enforcement all too often treats people of color differently than people who look like you and me. I get it. The cops in our world are the "good guys" and the vast majority, if not all, of our interactions with them are positive. Our worldviews are shaped primarily by our experiences.
So that being the case, your baseline assumption is that the person on the receiving end of police brutality must have done something to deserve it and that assumption remains, even when there's video showing otherwise. Don't believe your lying eyes, right?
Unfortunately, that's not reality, and it's hard to imagine how some people still refuse to accept that, despite mounds of evidence to the contrary.

It's also kind of telling that you've written a couple hundred words here expressing concern for the officer's treatment, but all you can say for Jacob Blake is that his civil rights may have been violated. Man was shot 6-7 times in the back and you see it as a civil rights violation? Justice for Jacob Blake is secondary to "positive change" (whatever the heck that's supposed to mean)?

Wow, all I can say is, wow!

Justice in the United States means everyone has their day in court. It means we are judged by a jury of our peers based on the rules of evidence. Punishment is based on the rule of law.

Justice for Jacob Blake will come when all the facts are on full display and vetted by an objective Wisconsin Attorney General or Justice Department. I'm confident and positive that if the Justice Department intervenes, he will do what is right and proper, as they have done in other circumstances in cities across the U.S. And, by the way, he was a carryover from the Obama Administration.

Anything else is retribution.

You may want to reread some of the comments about the FOP and police administrative practices in this thread. There's conversation around stripping the union and changing administrative practices.

As a second note, the cops are not often "good guys" with me either. I've had more than my share of run-ins over the years with power-hungry police officers. For that reason, I'm not assuming Jacob Blake did anything. I'm waiting for a full review of the evidence, including things the camera may not have picked up.

Finally, positive change means getting rid of police officers who abuse power, ensuring everyone's civil rights is protected and treating everyone fairly. OK, enough with the abstract nouns. My bad.

[wadesworld]

Wow, all I can say is, wow!

Justice in the United States means everyone has their day in court. It means we are judged by a jury of our peers based on the rules of evidence. Punishment is based on the rule of law.

Justice for Jacob Blake will come when all the facts are on full display and vetted by an objective Wisconsin Attorney General or Justice Department. I'm confident and positive that if the Justice Department intervenes, he will do what is right and proper, as they have done in other circumstances in cities across the U.S. And, by the way, he was a carryover from the Obama Administration.

Anything else is retribution.

You may want to reread some of the comments about the FOP and police administrative practices in this thread. There's conversation around stripping the union and changing administrative practices.

As a second note, the cops are not often "good guys" with me either. I've had more than my share of run-ins over the years with power-hungry police officers. For that reason, I'm not assuming Jacob Blake did anything. I'm waiting for a full review of the evidence, including things the camera may not have picked up.

Finally, positive change means getting rid of police officers who abuse power, ensuring everyone's civil rights is protected and treating everyone fairly. OK, enough with the abstract nouns. My bad.

The police officer felt so threatened that he grabbed the guy's shirt before shooting him 7 times in his back.  A day in court wasn't needed here.  You saw everything you needed to.

[mu_hilltopper]

No, not really.  There were three officers.  If the three of them can't subdue a suspect easily, maybe they're not cut out to be officers.  If they're worried, tackle him, zip tie him, and have a conversation.  Instead, weapons were drawn, each side felt threatened, and things escalated.  Again.

You're seeing what you want to see.  I'll wait for the report.

[MU82]

Justice in the United States means everyone has their day in court. It means we are judged by a jury of our peers based on the rules of evidence. Punishment is based on the rule of law.

The problem with this, of course, is that history has shown that people of color very often do not get their fair day in court. They are more likely to be accused, more likely to not be able to pay bail, more likely to be convicted, more likely to receive harsher sentences and more likely to be falsely charged and convicted, than white people who are accused and/or convicted of the exact same offenses.

Meanwhile, it historically has been almost impossible to see justice meted out properly against law enforcement. Before body cams it was all but impossible; now the situation has improved to almost impossible.

Things finally do appear to be changing just a little bit. Maybe. A tiny, little, bitty bit ... and when that happens nearly half the country loses their shyte. "They are lawless anarchists who want to abolish the suburbs!"

So while I really, really want to believe that this case will be adjudicated fairly, it's not easy to believe that it will be, even for an optimist like me.

But yes, I get what you're saying, dg, and there's nothing I can do about it anyway except watch from afar, hope, stay engaged, and vote.

[Pakuni]

Wow, all I can say is, wow!

Justice in the United States means everyone has their day in court. It means we are judged by a jury of our peers based on the rules of evidence. Punishment is based on the rule of law..

And, once again, nobody is saying anything different.
And, once again, your concern here seems revolve entirely around the treatment of the officer and not the man he shot repeatedly in the back.
If roles were reversed, and we were talking about a cop lying paralyzed in a hospital after being shot in the back by a citizen, I wonder if you'd be so concerned about a rush to judgement. If it were caught on video, would you be like "Let's just hold on here. I've got a feeling there's more to this story"?

[vogue65]

Seriously. How would have these people have fared in the 60s/early 70s if they think we're headed toward civil war now?
Political assassinations. Civil rights activists murdered by the hard right. Cops murdered by the hard left. Bombings by domestic terrorists on both sides. Days-long riots that left dozens dead. National guardsmen gunning down college kids. Rioting at a political convention. Oh, and the Vietnam War.
We've been through much worse just in the last 50 years.

This is not 1968.
Many white people are no longer fearful of people of color.
Yesterday I canceled my membership in the American Legion.
They are living in the past.
Right wing gun toting (with or without the protection of the P.B.A.) thugs are going to lose  this time.
Vietnam ended, finally, the cities stoped burning, and the powers that be came up with a solution.
Put a million black men in jail, shoot God knows how many, move to gated communities, and then die and claim victory.
It worked, but now it's not working because it is not 1968.
Therefore, the powers that be need a new plan.

[The Sultan]

This is not 1968.
Many white people are no longer fearful of people of color.
Yesterday I canceled my membership in the American Legion.
They are living in the past.
Right wing gun toting (with or without the protection of the P.B.A.) thugs are going to lose  this time.
Vietnam ended, finally, the cities stoped burning, and the powers that be came up with a solution.
Put a million black men in jail, shoot God knows how many, move to gated communities, and then die and claim victory.
It worked, but now it's not working because it is not 1968.
Therefore, the powers that be need a new plan.

I really wish you would stop quoting people and commenting out of context.

[vogue65]

And, once again, nobody is saying anything different.
And, once again, your concern here seems revolve entirely around the treatment of the officer and not the man he shot repeatedly in the back.
If roles were reversed, and we were talking about a cop lying paralyzed in a hospital after being shot in the back by a citizen, I wonder if you'd be so concerned about a rush to judgement.

Overwhemling force, bulletproof vest, flashing high powered lights, back-up on the way with sirens blaring vs.a black guy in a tee shirt, by himself with his children.
Cops are real heros.

[vogue65]

I really wish you would stop quoting people and commenting out of context.

Who did I  quote? 
Conversations move along, can't be controlled or dominated by anyone.
Typical, argue process, syntax, style, never have a conversation.  I  know, you wish you could dominate me, intimidate me, well, thanks for trying.

[vogue65]

I really wish you would stop quoting people and commenting out of context.

The subject was the country in the 1960's and early 1970's.
Anything relating to that period is within context, even if some people don't like the truth.
Some people can't handle the truth.
Living in a world of alternative facts, conspiracies, revisionist history, must be frustrating.

[The Sultan]

Who did I  quote? 
Conversations move along, can't be controlled or dominated by anyone.
Typical, argue process, syntax, style, never have a conversation.  I  know, you wish you could dominate me, intimidate me, well, thanks for trying.

You don't converse.  You don't invite people to engage in conversation.  You pontificate and label.  And quote people out of context as part of it.

[Jockey]

Seriously. How would have these people have fared in the 60s/early 70s if they think we're headed toward civil war now?
Political assassinations. Civil rights activists murdered by the hard right. Cops murdered by the hard left. Bombings by domestic terrorists on both sides. Days-long riots that left dozens dead. National guardsmen gunning down college kids. Rioting at a political convention. Oh, and the Vietnam War.
We've been through much worse just in the last 50 years.

As of nbow, you are 100% correct.

That could change in November. If POTUS uses armed "poll watchers" as he has said he will, and then refuses to leave if he loses (he has said he won't accept the results if he loses), all bets are off. He has said the military, bikers and police will support his actions.

If (and that is a big IF) he keeps his promise, some version of a civil war may break out. If he loses and refuses to leave, that is a terrorist act of overthrowing the gov't. That is a reason to take up arms.

[JWags85]

You don't converse.  You don't invite people to engage in conversation.  You pontificate and label.  And quote people out of context as part of it.

(Mike Breen voice) "Lillard pulls up from 30 feet...BAAAANNNNGGG"

[tower912]

EM, you may want to hold your fire on the police unions.   Lots of them are backing your guy.

For the nth time, this discussion underscores why it is so difficult to find enough quality qualified individuals to be police officers.    Because both political sides want to label them and use them as a soccer ball when this stuff goes on.   The left goes to racism, the right to unions.   

Why in the hell would anyone want to be a cop?   Just like teachers.    Generally underfunded and underpaid.   Blamed by all sides for society's ills.

    The average cop is trying to do the right thing and go home at the end of the day.

Don't need to defund them.   Need to give them adequate numbers and different, better training.

[real chili 83]

EM, you may want to hold your fire on the police unions.   Lots of them are backing your guy.

For the nth time, this discussion underscores why it is so difficult to find enough quality qualified individuals to be police officers.    Because both political sides want to label them and use them as a soccer ball when this stuff goes on.   The left goes to racism, the right to unions.   

Why in the hell would anyone want to be a cop?   Just like teachers.    Generally underfunded and underpaid.   Blamed by all sides for society's ills.

    The average cop is trying to do the right thing and go home at the end of the day.

Don't need to defund them.   Need to give them adequate numbers and different, better training.

You, Fluffy, 4Never and Dgies trying to have a civil discourse (about the only ones on this thread).

Vogue needs to get back on his meds.

I need more popcorn.

[jfmu]

As of nbow, you are 100% correct.

That could change in November. If POTUS uses armed "poll watchers" as he has said he will, and then refuses to leave if he loses (he has said he won't accept the results if he loses), all bets are off. He has said the military, bikers and police will support his actions.

If (and that is a big IF) he keeps his promise, some version of a civil war may break out. If he loses and refuses to leave, that is a terrorist act of overthrowing the gov't. That is a reason to take up arms.

I think you are on the wrong fringe theory message board

[The Sultan]

As of nbow, you are 100% correct.

That could change in November. If POTUS uses armed "poll watchers" as he has said he will, and then refuses to leave if he loses (he has said he won't accept the results if he loses), all bets are off. He has said the military, bikers and police will support his actions.

If (and that is a big IF) he keeps his promise, some version of a civil war may break out. If he loses and refuses to leave, that is a terrorist act of overthrowing the gov't. That is a reason to take up arms.

Cmon....

[Spotcheck Billy]

I sincerely appreciate all of your points and, having lived in the UK, can reinforce that their model for policing works far better than the US model. 

As for point 3, however, I'm pretty sure that if you or I shot someone 7 times in the back our mug(s) would be on the front page of every paper and web site.  No cop should get any identity protection when they do it, justified or unjustified.  Accountability drives behavior, and long term, accountability fixes problems. 

Our mugs wouldn't be on the front page until AFTER we were charged with a crime, the police shouldn't be named before that happens to them IMO.

[dgies9156]

And, once again, nobody is saying anything different.
And, once again, your concern here seems revolve entirely around the treatment of the officer and not the man he shot repeatedly in the back.
If roles were reversed, and we were talking about a cop lying paralyzed in a hospital after being shot in the back by a citizen, I wonder if you'd be so concerned about a rush to judgement. If it were caught on video, would you be like "Let's just hold on here. I've got a feeling there's more to this story"?

Brother Pakuni, of course I would feel the same regardless of who was injured. The Due Process clauses contained in the 5th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America is the basis of my concern. In both cases, the Constitution says, "No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." The 14th Amendment says, "nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

If the circumstances were reversed, I would expect NOTHING different. When a District Attorney brings charges against a citizen, I would expect them to be well-researched and well-documented by provable facts. If it takes time, so be it!

[wadesworld]

Brother Pakuni, of course I would feel the same regardless of who was injured. The Due Process clauses contained in the 5th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America is the basis of my concern. In both cases, the Constitution says, "No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." The 14th Amendment says, "nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

If the circumstances were reversed, I would expect NOTHING different. When a District Attorney brings charges against a citizen, I would expect them to be well-researched and well-documented by provable facts. If it takes time, so be it!

Black people are consistently being deprived of life (and liberty) consistently without the due process of law.

[tower912]

Yes.   BLM exists because unarmed black people keep getting shot by police.      Police unions exist to make sure their members are treated fairly and are protected from frivolous, false, or politically motivated punishments.     

So, stop shooting unarmed black people.     

Punish to the utmost those who do.   

Recognize that every single move you make is now being recorded and there will be accountability.     

Think. 

Don't attack cops over nonsense.     Don't turn something small into something big.