President Lovell’s son withdraws from MU after posting racist, sexist remarks

[Hards Alumni]

I understand what you are saying. But I wouldn't say "everyone" is the way you describe even given wide variation in degree level with the topic being race. It exists with some people, I am aware. But I am not sure I feel comfortable saying it exists with everyone.

Just wondering if you're saying that you, "don't see color".

Fair warning:  This is a trap question.

[shoothoops]

Just wondering if you're saying that you, "don't see color".

Fair warning:  This is a trap question.

No I didn't say that. Seeing color, and having color bias are two very different things. I was responding to the notion that everyone has racial bias. I asked for examples and clarity, and, I responded based on that. I even offered acknowledgement of racial advantages/disadvantages and so on. Racial bias implies a personal preference for or against someone or some thing based on race. That doesn't mean race isn't seen or acknowledged. And I stated that is not the same as having a bias or preference for a particular food item, sports team, etc...My response is that some people do and some people don't.

[Pakuni]

No I didn't say that. Seeing color, and having color bias are two very different things. I was responding to the notion that everyone has racial bias. I asked for examples and clarity, and, I responded based on that. I even offered acknowledgement of racial advantages/disadvantages and so on. Racial bias implies a personal preference for or against someone or some thing based on race. That doesn't mean race isn't seen or acknowledged. And I stated that is not the same as having a bias or preference for a particular food item, sports team, etc...My response is that some people do and some people don't.

I think you're getting way too hung up on sticking to your rigid definition of "bias" and failing to see the bigger picture.

[GooooMarquette]

No I didn't say that. Seeing color, and having color bias are two very different things. I was responding to the notion that everyone has racial bias. I asked for examples and clarity, and, I responded based on that. I even offered acknowledgement of racial advantages/disadvantages and so on. Racial bias implies a personal preference for or against someone or some thing based on race. That doesn't mean race isn't seen or acknowledged. And I stated that is not the same as having a bias or preference for a particular food item, sports team, etc...My response is that some people do and some people don't.

'Personal preference' implies intent or at least knowledge, and therefore conscious awareness.

IMO, 'racial bias' is broader than that, and encompasses both conscious awareness plus the unconscious beliefs we hold.

[shoothoops]

I think you're getting way too hung up on sticking to your rigid definition of "bias" and failing to see the bigger picture.

Can you give me your definition of the word bias? I ask because you used the word 3 times in your last post and as your primary word in the one before that. So that is what I used. The definition isn't mine. I am certainly open to other interpretations of it.

Going back some posts, I can acknowledge the power component to race of which Fluffy Blue Monster described but when he says we all have prejudices...I am less inclined to agree if the topic is race. Some or many people, sure, yes. Everyone?  Food? Sure. That doesn't mean people don"t see race every day. That doesn't mean all that goes into race isn't understood or acknowledged.

This doesn't mean power structures, systemic racism, advantages, disadvantages aren't understood or don't exist. If this is what you mean, I would easily agree with that. But if we are talking personal choice, as opposed to those things, my answer would be more inclined to say some people.

We can move on, but I don't believe all people have personal preferences based on race. Are some people, many people, socially conditioned this way? Yep. Of course. But some aren't as well. Everyone is farther than I would go with that.

I'm sure one could say I have racial preferences or bias to increase racial equality, opportunity, and diversity for all races. But I would say that's just so that the playing field can be leveled for everyone, which of course it isn't.

I asked the questions because are we talking about people being born white, with advantages, acknowledging systemic racism, individual people racism etc....or are we saying every single person here and elsewhere has racial bias or racial preference in some aspect of life? Certainly some, many do. We all know these people and situations, many are on this board.

Specific examples are a way of finding clarity of the topic and agreement (or not). For example, I've been in a car with black people who were pulled over because they were driving while black. That, as a white person would not likely happen to me without some cause, even small. That is an example of racism and racial bias that existed with that police officer. Or I have been in high crime neighborhoods, the example previously mentioned, where someone's guard may be up. But that is because of the crime and not the race for some, and the opposite for others. And so on...Let"s say someone likes all kinds of music, but some more than others, and/or some artists more than others. Example, someone who doesn't like a lot or hip hop or rap music, maybe some. For some people that choice is about the art and for some there is a racial component. Or country music etc...that doesn't mean these people are not acknowledging the racial components of these artists or genres. Understanding racial bias exists in a wide variety of topics and situations, doesn't mean everyone has it.

I circle back to temperament/personality, of which there are a variety. Just as there is a variety of answers to racial bias.

I certainly don't want it to be petulant or pedantic or nitpicking, but it seems an important enough topic for clarity.

I appreciate the conversation, as some are unwilling to discuss race as it is some sort of uncomfortable for them. Thanks 👍

Now if we can bump MU's Black student population from 4% to double digits, as well as Hispanic, Asian, etc...and perhaps take that almost 75% from WI/IL and get that under 50%....but that's another topic altogether.

[shoothoops]

'Personal preference' implies intent or at least knowledge, and therefore conscious awareness.

IMO, 'racial bias' is broader than that, and encompasses both conscious awareness plus the unconscious beliefs we hold.

And that is really the question(s). Do you believe all people have both of these or just some? If so, can you provide an example(s). I am not seeking to disagree, and my opinion is certainly amenable.

[Pakuni]

Can you give me your definition of the word bias? I ask because you used the word 3 times in your last post and as your primary word in the one before that.

I don't mean to be snarky or short with you, but you clearly want to convince someone that there's a lucky few among us - a group that includes you? - who've managed to break free of the biases that afflict the rest of humanity.
If that's what you wish to believe, fine. I really don't have much interest in trying to debate you out of that thinking.

But to answer your question, bias here means prejudice. As in, we subconsciously pre-judge people, develop attitudes and beliefs about people, based on how they look.
If you've somehow managed to overcome millennia of evolutionary psychology and centuries of social conditioning and are free of these biases, congrats. I'm skeptical though.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It is theoretically possible for a person to be free of both explicit and implicit bias.  I have yet to meet such a person

[shoothoops]

I don't mean to be snarky or short with you, but you clearly want to convince someone that there's a lucky few among us - a group that includes you? - who've managed to break free of the biases that afflict the rest of humanity.
If that's what you wish to believe, fine. I really don't have much interest in trying to debate you out of that thinking.

But to answer your question, bias here means prejudice. As in, we subconsciously pre-judge people, develop attitudes and beliefs about people, based on how they look.
If you've somehow managed to overcome millennia of evolutionary psychology and centuries of social conditioning and are free of these biases, congrats. I'm skeptical though.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. It's certainly an honest conversation.

I don't believe everyone, all people, etc...pre-judge people, especially negatively, based on how they look, with the topic being race, skin color etc.. Does it happen every day? Sure? Is it common? Sure. We see it every day. Are there people that don't do this?  Sure. It's a mix in my opinion. I knew plenty of racists at MU for example, overt, closet, joking etc..whatever style or form. Again, that doesn't mean there isn't knowledge or awareness of these things that exist in high quantities everywhere daily.  We can move on.

[shoothoops]

It is theoretically possible for a person to be free of both explicit and implicit bias.  I have yet to meet such a person

Based on race alone? Color of skin

I am not saying explicit and implicit bias do not exist regarding race. It certainly exists within some people, perhaps many people.  But yes I am saying not everyone engages in both or either. So I suppose I have met some of those people. I'm happy to respectfully  disagree and move on. 👍

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Based on race alone? Color of skin

I am not saying explicit and implicit bias do not exist regarding race. It certainly exists within some people, perhaps many people.  But yes I am saying not everyone engages in both or either. So I suppose I have met some of those people. I'm happy to respectfully  disagree and move on. 👍

Then respectfully, you know a lot of unicorns.

Not engaging in racial bias and not having racial bias are two different things. Everyone has it,  but some are conscious of it and choose not to engage in it.

[Pakuni]

Based on race alone? Color of skin

I am not saying explicit and implicit bias do not exist regarding race. It certainly exists within some people, perhaps many people.  But yes I am saying not everyone engages in both or either. So I suppose I have met some of those people. I'm happy to respectfully  disagree and move on. 👍

Serious question ... how could you possibly know what others' implicit biases are?
I'd suggest you probably aren't even aware of many of your own implicit biases, much less that of others.
Lack of awareness/conscious thought is what makes implicit biases implicit.

[shoothoops]

Serious question ... how could you possibly know what others' implicit biases are?
I'd suggest you probably aren't even aware of many of your own implicit biases, much less that of others.
Lack of awareness/conscious thought is what makes implicit biases implicit.

It isn't about me.

Specific examples would help. Any random example. White person walks alone in high crime neighborhood. Crosses street when sees oncoming black person. Some would cross the street or get a negative vibe, some wouldn't. Some would get a negative vibe based on previous or past racial conditioning, some wouldn't. Some would cross the street because of race, others might because of the high crime area etc....and that's really the point.

A person is 400 pounds. A person is 100 pounds. You may think this person is very heavy or this person is very thin. But that isn't a bias against either of those people or a pre-judgement. It's just an observation, a recognition. It certainly can and does become a pre-judgement for some or many people, but not all.

People as a category are much different than objects or things. That is different. I have used the pizza example before. Someone eats pizza, NYC, CT, South Jersey, Detroit, Chicago, Stl, Neopolitan on and on....and says they like all but they prefer certain types of pizza more often over others. or they may even say they absolutely do not like a certain type of pizza. .....this of course different from pre-judging people...which again happens frequently every day, but, not everyone does it.

Do you see the pattern here? n every example, there will be a mix as opposes to an everyone or all

(I don't want to stray too far too often away from the topic of race in the examples)

[GooooMarquette]

And that is really the question(s). Do you believe all people have both of these or just some? If so, can you provide an example(s). I am not seeking to disagree, and my opinion is certainly amenable.

Every person on this planet has unconscious thoughts and beliefs that drive their actions.

Is it theoretically possible that a person exists in whom every one of those unconscious thoughts and beliefs is completely 'skin color' neutral? I suppose it's possible on a planet with 5 billion people, but I kinda doubt it.

[Lennys Tap]

Based on race alone? Color of skin

I am not saying explicit and implicit bias do not exist regarding race. It certainly exists within some people, perhaps many people.  But yes I am saying not everyone engages in both or either. So I suppose I have met some of those people. I'm happy to respectfully  disagree and move on. 👍

You desperately want to be on the "good guys" team. It gives you license to criticize the folks on the "bad guys" team. Which makes you feel better (superior?) about yourself. Not picking on you. We all, to one degree or another, share that "quality".

[shoothoops]

You desperately want to be on the "good guys" team. It gives you license to criticize the folks on the "bad guys" team. Which makes you feel better (superior?) about yourself. Not picking on you. We all, to one degree or another, share that "quality".

Huh?

[Hards Alumni]

It isn't about me.

Specific examples would help. Any random example. White person walks alone in high crime neighborhood. Crosses street when sees oncoming black person. Some would cross the street or get a negative vibe, some wouldn't. Some would get a negative vibe based on previous or past racial conditioning, some wouldn't. Some would cross the street because of race, others might because of the high crime area etc....and that's really the point.

A person is 400 pounds. A person is 100 pounds. You may think this person is very heavy or this person is very thin. But that isn't a bias against either of those people or a pre-judgement. It's just an observation, a recognition. It certainly can and does become a pre-judgement for some or many people, but not all.

People as a category are much different than objects or things. That is different. I have used the pizza example before. Someone eats pizza, NYC, CT, South Jersey, Detroit, Chicago, Stl, Neopolitan on and on....and says they like all but they prefer certain types of pizza more often over others. or they may even say they absolutely do not like a certain type of pizza. .....this of course different from pre-judging people...which again happens frequently every day, but, not everyone does it.

Do you see the pattern here? n every example, there will be a mix as opposes to an everyone or all

(I don't want to stray too far too often away from the topic of race in the examples)

Let me help.

https://www.vox.com/2014/12/26/7443979/racism-implicit-racial-bias

[shoothoops]

Let me help.

https://www.vox.com/2014/12/26/7443979/racism-implicit-racial-bias

I am not saying implicit or explicit racial bias does not exist. I am not saying that it doesn't have a significant presence. But yes I am saying not everyone has it. Even this article says generally or in general not specifically for everyone.

I don't believe we are all that far apart here. But yes I am unwilling to say all, everyone etc...I believe it is much more of a mix than that. It's what I believe. I'm not sure what else I can say.

As I said, I am happy to objectively entertain any very specific examples not knowing what they are or how I would respond. Maybe I would concede something 100% in an example or not or something else. Who knows? But that would probably be more effective than generalities....at least for me.

[Elonsmusk]

Let me help.

https://www.vox.com/2014/12/26/7443979/racism-implicit-racial-bias

Shocker that you read Vox.

As it relates to racism, all one needs to know is that the only people who are racist are Whites.  (Or at least that's what NY Times, WaPost, CNN, MSNBC, Huff Post, Vox suggest.)  That being said, I wonder why people of color immigrate to Anglo countries?  So strange. 

Sheep along, sheep.

[Galway Eagle]

Shocker that you read Vox.

As it relates to racism, all one needs to know is that the only people who are racist are Whites.  (Or at least that's what NY Times, WaPost, CNN, MSNBC, Huff Post, Vox suggest.)  That being said, I wonder why people of color immigrate to Anglo countries?  So strange. 

Sheep along, sheep.

Well this first part isn't true at all. Anyone can be racist. It takes at least a local plurality to have an actual impact.

As far as why people move to Anglo countries that only refers to England and the socialized health care and better maternity plan have something to do with it.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Well this first part isn't true at all. Anyone can be racist. It takes at least a local plurality to have an actual impact.

As far as why people move to Anglo countries that only refers to England and the socialized health care and better maternity plan have something to do with it.

What about saxon countries?

[muwarrior69]

Then respectfully, you know a lot of unicorns.

Not engaging in racial bias and not having racial bias are two different things. Everyone has it,  but some are conscious of it and choose not to engage in it.

Does that include people of color as well?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Does that include people of color as well?

POC are included in everyone

[Hards Alumni]

Shocker that you read Vox.

As it relates to racism, all one needs to know is that the only people who are racist are Whites.  (Or at least that's what NY Times, WaPost, CNN, MSNBC, Huff Post, Vox suggest.)  That being said, I wonder why people of color immigrate to Anglo countries?  So strange. 

Sheep along, sheep.

No, I don't typically any website front to back, but this clearly defined what we were talking about and it was a couple of years old.

You're nearly as unhinged as your orange emperor.

[The Sultan]

What about saxon countries?

I was a tuba player in middle school band.  I admit I had bias against the woodwinds.