MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: pbiflyer on August 07, 2020, 10:52:39 AM
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President Lovell’s son withdraws from university after posting racist, sexist remarks on social media
https://marquettewire.org/4034766/news/president-lovells-son-withdraws-from-university-after-posting-racist-sexist-remarks-on-social-media/
Matt Lovell, son of Marquette University President Michael Lovell, has withdrawn from Marquette University after he posted multiple racist and sexist posts to different meme accounts on Instagram.
The posts, which include derogatory statements about women and Black people, were originally published in 2017 and 2018, when Matt was a first-year at Marquette. Some posts have been deleted, while others are still public on one account.
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So sad for so many reasons...
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"A meme is an image or video with a large piece of text over the imagery that seeks to be humorous. It is often posted to the internet and commonly spread by users."
LOL. Welcome to the era of social media for some, I suppose. The most controversial & the most shock-inducing always draws the most interactions & is therefore pushed ahead of rational content... Which itself is an inducement to be more controversial.
Doubt the kid is a racist (I'm glad to be corrected as I haven't seen the totality of the content). Insensitive. Probably still a student if he weren't the President's kid.
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Wow. That's quite a story.
As a parent, this in particular was heartbreaking:
In an interview with the Marquette Wire, Amy Lovell, Matt’s mother and President Lovell’s wife, said that during his first year at Marquette, Matt struggled with finding acceptance among peers and battled depression. His grades suffered and his mood worsened, which led to his withdrawal from Marquette that year, she said. Because of that, Matt found his way online, where he was drawn to and ultimately found acceptance on “toxic and destructive sites.”
“I’m horrified and disgusted that this is where he found acceptance during his darkest time,” Amy said. “But when people are in dark times, they aren’t operating from the lens of who they really are.”
I wonder how often that kind of thing happens at colleges (and high schools and younger) all around the country. Very sad.
I'm on record a zillion times as being big on second chances (and sometimes even third chances). I wish it had worked out so he could have stayed at Marquette, and I hope he finds peace and happiness at another school.
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"A meme is an image or video with a large piece of text over the imagery that seeks to be humorous. It is often posted to the internet and commonly spread by users."
LOL. Welcome to the era of social media for some, I suppose. The most controversial & the most shock-inducing always draws the most interactions & is therefore pushed ahead of rational content... Which itself is an inducement to be more controversial.
Doubt the kid is a racist (I'm glad to be corrected as I haven't seen the totality of the content). Insensitive. Probably still a student if he weren't the President's kid.
Doesn't posting racist and sexist memes make you a racist and a sexist?
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Doesn't posting racist and sexist memes make you a racist and a sexist?
It's pretty clear from the article that the kid was in a quite dark place & perhaps desperate for attention. I'm sure there were all kinds of bizarre & controversial memes being posted just for shock value.
The internet is filled to the brim with anonymous accounts of angry & lonely people just hopping on to take a swing at the hornet's nest & then sit back to observe the results. If you aren't aware of it, well, that's for the best anyway.
Not excusing the behavior.
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The interview with his mother makes me very sad.
I too believe in second chances and hope he can grow from this experience. As I Hope most teens do.
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I can’t imagine going to college where your dad is the President is easy. Hopefully a fresh start is what he needs.
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I can’t imagine going to college where your dad is the President is easy. Hopefully a fresh start is what he needs.
I have worked for ten college presidents. Only one of them had a child attend the school when the President was in office, and she transferred in as a junior when the family moved 2,000 miles to take the job.
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It's pretty clear from the article that the kid was in a quite dark place & perhaps desperate for attention. I'm sure there were all kinds of bizarre & controversial memes being posted just for shock value.
The internet is filled to the brim with anonymous accounts of angry & lonely people just hopping on to take a swing at the hornet's nest & then sit back to observe the results. If you aren't aware of it, well, that's for the best anyway.
Not excusing the behavior.
I'm very aware of those places. I'm not excusing the behavior either, because it is abhorrent... which is why it shouldn't be brushed aside so easily.
Posting something for shock value doesn't diminish the content itself. Nor does it absolve the poster of being labeled as a racist or sexist. He is both of those things, ipso facto.
Our society tries to give people a pass on things like this... ESPECIALLY if the person is white. It's wrong and it's insulting.
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I can’t imagine going to college where your dad is the President is easy. Hopefully a fresh start is what he needs.
My brother is a university president. People (not my brother) have asked my daughter if she's going to go there. Not gonna happen.
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Doesn't posting racist and sexist memes make you a racist and a sexist?
Well, he did say “The images do not reflect who I am or the values my family lives by”.
Of course they always say that.
Seriously, though, I agree with 82 completely. I am sad that so many young people feel the need to do this and that their lives have led them to it. We need to address why racism is almost always the dark place they seek out.
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Being a racist (or not being a racist) is too often seen as a binary choice. It's more a matter of degree - how much of a racist are you?
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Being a racist (or not being a racist) is too often seen as a binary choice. It's more a matter of degree - how much of a racist are you?
Typically, anyone brazen enough to post memes on the internet rolls at least a 7 out 10 on the ol' racist-o-meter.
That I just developed now. Totally scientifically. ;D
What I wish would happen is what was asked of DeSean Jackson. Education. I'm fine with second chances for people who want to earn them.
Edit: a number
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD-dOO5iHhs
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Being a racist (or not being a racist) is too often seen as a binary choice. It's more a matter of degree - how much of a racist are you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXnM1uHhsOI
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I am more sympathetic to a young person expressing contrition and admitting to being in a bad place when he wrote stupid stuff. Versus doubling down and playing the victim. Most of all, I am glad that social media was not around when I was young and dumb.
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The posts, which include derogatory statements about women and Black people, were originally published in 2017 and 2018, when Matt was a first-year at Marquette. Some posts have been deleted, while others are still public on one account.
I'm curious about this term. Is a "first-year" now the preferred term for what we know as a "Freshman"?
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I'm curious about this term. Is a "first-year" now the preferred term for what we know as a "Freshman"?
Its becoming more popular. High school students have a lot more ability to earn college credit these days which is resulting in students in their first or second semester having enough credits to technically be considered sophomores or even juniors. I know a lot of employees who have started to use "first years" "second years" etc to help clarify what they mean.
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Its becoming more popular. High school students have a lot more ability to earn college credit these days which is resulting in students in their first or second semester having enough credits to technically be considered sophomores or even juniors. I know a lot of employees who have started to use "first years" "second years" etc to help clarify what they mean.
Yep. Both of my daughters had enough AP credits to graduate in three years. One of them chose to do so, while the other decided to take her time. And in both cases, their numerous AP credits allowed them to do two majors and minor.
Back to Matt Lovell, I agree with ‘82. While some things are generally inexcusable, I think it’s worth taking into account the fact that he was 18 years old and struggling with depression bad enough to drop out of school. In a case like that, if he expresses sincere contrition and doesn’t continue his racist or sexist behavior, I think that should be the end of it.
Hell, some full-grown ‘adults’ tweet sexist and racist things every day, never apologize, and never face consequences.
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My brother is a university president. People (not my brother) have asked my daughter if she's going to go there. Not gonna happen.
My mom was a teacher at my high school. Didn’t bother me a bit, and she was a lot more visible on “campus” than a university president is. But yes, everybody handles situations differently.
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Anyone rember SOUTH PACIFIC?
The song, "You have to be taught".
Sorry for bring it up....
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For many people, period, social media is about as bad a development as you can get. The problem is that you make asinine, ridiculous comments at one or more points in your life that may not reflect who you are. But they're out there and they'll never go away. Many of us have done this to one degree or another and the comments may, in some cases, come back to haunt us.
I hope thew young man gets the second chance Brother MU wished for and I trust his youthful mistakes will not come back to bother him. Heck, African-Americans in Alabama forgave George Wallace in 1982. One can only hope we all follow the same example today.
Morale of the story is something my Mom once said: Once something comes out of your mouth, you can never put it back!
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Luckily this young man only withdrew his MU enrollment and he has not been banned from MU Scoop
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My brother is a university president. People (not my brother) have asked my daughter if she's going to go there. Not gonna happen.
Many years ago, shortly after he became MU president, REV. ALBERT J. DIULIO, S.J., visited Houston. A reception of the local MU Club was held in his honor at the home of a couple of MU dentists/brothers.
We all stood around while he sat in a chair (throne-lol) for a Q&A. The first question was ...What attracted you to take this job?...Oddly, he responded..."well of course the free Marquette tuition for his niece and nephew was a great bonus."
This was received by me and others as a rather off putting response. I did not get a good vibe from that guy, at the time...he kind of came off as aloof and arrogant.
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Many years ago, shortly after he became MU president, REV. ALBERT J. DIULIO, S.J., visited Houston. A reception of the local MU Club was held in his honor at the home of a couple of MU dentists/brothers.
We all stood around while he sat in a chair (throne-lol) for a Q&A. The first question was ...What attracted you to take this job?...Oddly, he responded..."well of course the free Marquette tuition for his niece and nephew was a great bonus."
This was received by me and others as a rather off putting response. I did not get a good vibe from that guy, at the time...he kind of came off as aloof and arrogant.
He interviewed me for a job a few years back. He does have a very odd sense of humor.
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Good thing Mike is a University President and not a soccer player.
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Good thing Mike is a University President and not a soccer player.
Huh? He probably wouldn’t have a 19 year old son if he was a Marquette soccer player. Just a guess though.
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Many years ago, shortly after he became MU president, REV. ALBERT J. DIULIO, S.J., visited Houston. A reception of the local MU Club was held in his honor at the home of a couple of MU dentists/brothers.
We all stood around while he sat in a chair (throne-lol) for a Q&A. The first question was ...What attracted you to take this job?...Oddly, he responded..."well of course the free Marquette tuition for his niece and nephew was a great bonus."
This was received by me and others as a rather off putting response. I did not get a good vibe from that guy, at the time...he kind of came off as aloof and arrogant.
Sometimes first impressions are the most accurate.
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Huh? He probably wouldn’t have a 19 year old son if he was a Marquette soccer player. Just a guess though.
I was referring to this. He was fired for what his wife posted.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/06/05/mls-team-releases-player-after-wife-mocks-protesters-instagram/
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I was referring to this. He was fired for what his wife posted.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/06/05/mls-team-releases-player-after-wife-mocks-protesters-instagram/
That's a terrible analogy.
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I was referring to this. He was fired for what his wife posted.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/06/05/mls-team-releases-player-after-wife-mocks-protesters-instagram/
His wife advocated for homicide. That's a hard pill to swallow for any sports club that claims to be a functioning member of the community.
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this didn't happen with the kids of our previous Presidents.
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Being a racist (or not being a racist) is too often seen as a binary choice. It's more a matter of degree - how much of a racist are you?
This is a great way of putting it. I recently heard it put as an equation...racist = prejudice + power. Being white you are in power and we all have prejudice (be it conscious or unconscious), so any white person is to some degree racist. That is not saying that other races cannot have prejudice (see D-Jax comments recently) and be just as wrong as a racist, but they are missing the power piece of that equation. The key is accepting that and seeing how you can make yourself better and be an advocate for those who do not have the power.
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This is a great way of putting it. I recently heard it put as an equation...racist = prejudice + power. Being white you are in power and we all have prejudice (be it conscious or unconscious), so any white person is to some degree racist. That is not saying that other races cannot have prejudice (see D-Jax comments recently) and be just as wrong as a racist, but they are missing the power piece of that equation. The key is accepting that and seeing how you can make yourself better and be an advocate for those who do not have the power.
So everyone is a racist and the key to progress is more black, brown, red and yellow racists and fewer white racists in positions of power. How do you propose this should be accomplished?
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So everyone is a racist and the key to progress is more black, brown, red and yellow racists and fewer white racists in positions of power. How do you propose this should be accomplished?
Everyone has racial biases. The important thing is to acknowledge this and understand this.
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So everyone is a racist and the key to progress is more black, brown, red and yellow racists and fewer white racists in positions of power. How do you propose this should be accomplished?
Accepting one's own racial biases - and we all have them - doesn't make you a racist.
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Many years ago, shortly after he became MU president, REV. ALBERT J. DIULIO, S.J., visited Houston. A reception of the local MU Club was held in his honor at the home of a couple of MU dentists/brothers.
We all stood around while he sat in a chair (throne-lol) for a Q&A. The first question was ...What attracted you to take this job?...Oddly, he responded..."well of course the free Marquette tuition for his niece and nephew was a great bonus."
This was received by me and others as a rather off putting response. I did not get a good vibe from that guy, at the time...he kind of came off as aloof and arrogant.
his niece was in my graduating class. Having no knowledge of the laws of the Catholic Church upon coming to MU I just figured she was his daughter. My grandfather was a Pastor and he had kids, didn't priest? I quickly learned the Catholic Church was very different from the Disciples of Christ and Presbyterian churches in which I had been raised. ;D
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Many years ago, shortly after he became MU president, REV. ALBERT J. DIULIO, S.J., visited Houston. A reception of the local MU Club was held in his honor at the home of a couple of MU dentists/brothers.
We all stood around while he sat in a chair (throne-lol) for a Q&A. The first question was ...What attracted you to take this job?...Oddly, he responded..."well of course the free Marquette tuition for his niece and nephew was a great bonus."
This was received by me and others as a rather off putting response. I did not get a good vibe from that guy, at the time...he kind of came off as aloof and arrogant.
I was the MU Tribune's "university administration" reporter during a portion of DiUlio's presidency. Your impression is accurate. Not a bad guy from my interactions with him, but definitely aloof and at times condescending. But no Kevin O'Neill on either count.
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Accepting one's own racial biases - and we all have them - doesn't make you a racist.
I think you and Fluffy are basically saying the same thing (and I concur) though I think acknowledging is a better choice of words. “Accepting” makes said biases sound “acceptable” and I don’t think that was your point.
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I think you and Fluffy are basically saying the same thing (and I concur) though I think acknowledging is a better choice of words. “Accepting” makes said biases sound “acceptable” and I don’t think that was your point.
Yes, acknowledge is a better word.
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I was the MU Tribune's "university administration" reporter during a portion of DiUlio's presidency. Your impression is accurate. Not a bad guy from my interactions with him, but definitely aloof and at times condescending. But no Kevin O'Neill on either count.
You sir, with all due respect, could not hold a candle to Al.
I know I could not.
He was on my floor at Schroeder back in the day. Personality notwithstanding, he has successfully spent his life in service to the society and others. He is far more than a not a bad guy.
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Everyone has racial biases. The important thing is to acknowledge this and understand this.
Can you and Pakuni explain more what you mean by "Racial Bias" ?...examples...for me the term means preference for or against something or someone based on race alone. Is that what you mean? Or no?
Obviously racial advantages, disadvantages exist, but I would need to understand better what you mean by racial bias before I can agree "everyone" has them.
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Can you and Pakuni explain more what you mean by "Racial Bias" ?...examples...for me the term means preference for or against something or someone based on race alone. Is that what you mean? Or no?
Obviously racial advantages, disadvantages exist, but I would need to understand better what you mean by racial bias before I can agree "everyone" has them.
It is human nature to group similar people to you into your "tribe" and divide those who are different into the "other." We've been doing it longer than we have had written language. It was probably useful from an evolutionary perspective at one point. We all inherit these cultural biases and instincts. It is important to just recognize it and stop it from informing our decisions in today's society, where they do more harm than good.
I generally like to think of myself as a good person, and not a racist. Does that mean I have never made a snap judgment on someone based on race? I can't think of anything particularly egregious, but I am sure I have at some point.
I don't know why it is so hard for people to admit it. It doesn't mean you are a bad person.
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You sir, with all due respect, could not hold a candle to Al.
I know I could not.
He was on my floor at Schroeder back in the day. Personality notwithstanding, he has successfully spent his life in service to the society and others. He is far more than a not a bad guy.
My experience with DiUlio was at the end of his term (94 to 96). He came off as arrogant and aloof. We rarely saw him on campus and I remember when he spoke to us at Orientation he was all decked out in his regala with the smoke leading him to the podium. Father Wild, on the other hand, was visible and seemed much more down to earth.
There was also the deficit MU ran under DiUlio that was an issue, leading to a large tuition increase combined with staff cuts. I give him full credit for Campus Circle though. I wish he'd been able to get Avenue Commons done.
I'm not sure if spending his life in the Society is a measure of being a good guy (see: Pilarz, Scott).
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It is human nature to group similar people to you into your "tribe" and divide those who are different into the "other." We've been doing it longer than we have had written language. It was probably useful from an evolutionary perspective at one point. We all inherit these cultural biases and instincts. It is important to just recognize it and stop it from informing our decisions in today's society, where they do more harm than good.
I generally like to think of myself as a good person, and not a racist. Does that mean I have never made a snap judgment on someone based on race? I can't think of anything particularly egregious, but I am sure I have at some point.
I don't know why it is so hard for people to admit it. It doesn't mean you are a bad person.
I understand what you are saying. But I wouldn't say "everyone" is the way you describe even given wide variation in degree level with the topic being race. It exists with some people, I am aware. But I am not sure I feel comfortable saying it exists with everyone.
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Can you and Pakuni explain more what you mean by "Racial Bias" ?...examples...for me the term means preference for or against something or someone based on race alone. Is that what you mean? Or no?
Obviously racial advantages, disadvantages exist, but I would need to understand better what you mean by racial bias before I can agree "everyone" has them.
Coleman pretty well covered it.
For most of us, these biases are unconscious. We don't actively think about treating or reacting to people differently based on their race, ethnicity, gender, age, etc., but those biases still exist.
As Coleman said, it's the result of evolutionary and social conditioning over which we have no control. And these biases aren't always bad. They help us navigate the world, understand social situations and recognize potential dangers. Sometimes that bad feeling you get about a person or a situation is totally legit, right?
But sometimes the conditioning leads us astray and if we're not conscious of our biases or if we choose to ignore them, we can end up treating others unfairly.
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My experience with DiUlio was at the end of his term (94 to 96). He came off as arrogant and aloof. We rarely saw him on campus and I remember when he spoke to us at Orientation he was all decked out in his regala with the smoke leading him to the podium. Father Wild, on the other hand, was visible and seemed much more down to earth.
There was also the deficit MU ran under DiUlio that was an issue, leading to a large tuition increase combined with staff cuts. I give him full credit for Campus Circle though. I wish he'd been able to get Avenue Commons done.
I'm not sure if spending his life in the Society is a measure of being a good guy (see: Pilarz, Scott).
It's not a life spent in the Society, it is the life long breath of accomplishment. Like so many people he has been more of a behind the scenes operator.
President Lovell is the topic. I don't know him at all. He is now faced with real decisions, financial issues, we shall see how it goes.
When Al and I were at Marquette the campus was a pipe dream. What Al and those guys did was a first class miracle. A lot of Al's work was done before he became president.
At our reunion I was a Gesu with my wife waiting for a bus to the Pfister. We always take public transportation when we travel.
There was this old guy watering the plants. We struck up a conversation, I did my name dropping, reunion, etc..
He said he knew Al, that he was pastor of Gesu and that he was a former president of Creighton.
It was a lesson for me in humility, and the long term view of careers.
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Coleman pretty well covered it.
For most of us, these biases are unconscious. We don't actively think about treating or reacting to people differently based on their race, ethnicity, gender, age, etc., but those biases still exist.
As Coleman said, it's the result of evolutionary and social conditioning over which we have no control. And these biases aren't always bad. They help us navigate the world, understand social situations and recognize potential dangers. Sometimes that bad feeling you get about a person or a situation is totally legit, right?
But sometimes the conditioning leads us astray and if we're not conscious of our biases or if we choose to ignore them, we can end up treating others unfairly.
I would say some, even concede many, but I wouldn't say most or everyone.
For me tribalism or group think or in/out groups, or hierarchy or .....is more temperament stacking based related to personality type. These things can be more prevelant with more dominant social or social first types of temperament stackings within individual personality types.
Off the cuff example, not a deep thought, but let's say the example is dating/marriage. You may have heard that person A has a type, and only dates blondes. Or person B only dates or marries within his or her race. There will always be that. There will also always be some people who don't have a racial preference in any way when it comes to dating or marriage. There will also always be some people who regardless of their interests or experiences, wouldn't do it because they were socially conditioned not to in some way. Lots of variety here.
Again I go back to bias as to mean preference by definition. Understanding social situations and potential dangers.....for some a bad feeling about a person or situation isn't race based. It is for some others. I'm certainly aware and not naive. I've been to my share of rough places in my time as have others.
Age, gender, .....I know of some men or women that behave differently around a different gender than they would a similar gender. And, I know people who don't differentiate their behavior amongst different gender. Now obviously there are basic recognitions of various physical, mental, emotional capabilities amongst people, say a disabled person or elderly person that may ir may not have some limitations to varying degrees. But given those things, there are some people that would treat those people the similar to themselves.
I go back to temperament stacking differences within personality types that can lead to a wide range of people, some of whom may exhibit more of the aforementioned group think, in/out groups, hierarchy, etc...whether that be based on race, age, gender, socio-economics etc..
Obviously everyone has daily personal preferences, sports, movies, music, books, teams, travel, art, food, on and on.....but by race? I don't believe everyone has that. No. Some people, yes or course. I believe there is a big difference between saying okay I prefer NYC and CT pizza to Chicago Deep Dish, vs personal preferences, bias based on race.
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You sir, with all due respect, could not hold a candle to Al.
I know I could not.
He was on my floor at Schroeder back in the day. Personality notwithstanding, he has successfully spent his life in service to the society and others. He is far more than a not a bad guy.
It's hard to imagine that my experiences with DiUlio as a student reporter meeting with the university president in the 1990s wasn't the exact same as yours as a fellow student in the 1960s, and yet here we are.
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I understand what you are saying. But I wouldn't say "everyone" is the way you describe even given wide variation in degree level with the topic being race. It exists with some people, I am aware. But I am not sure I feel comfortable saying it exists with everyone.
Just wondering if you're saying that you, "don't see color".
Fair warning: This is a trap question.
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Just wondering if you're saying that you, "don't see color".
Fair warning: This is a trap question.
No I didn't say that. Seeing color, and having color bias are two very different things. I was responding to the notion that everyone has racial bias. I asked for examples and clarity, and, I responded based on that. I even offered acknowledgement of racial advantages/disadvantages and so on. Racial bias implies a personal preference for or against someone or some thing based on race. That doesn't mean race isn't seen or acknowledged. And I stated that is not the same as having a bias or preference for a particular food item, sports team, etc...My response is that some people do and some people don't.
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No I didn't say that. Seeing color, and having color bias are two very different things. I was responding to the notion that everyone has racial bias. I asked for examples and clarity, and, I responded based on that. I even offered acknowledgement of racial advantages/disadvantages and so on. Racial bias implies a personal preference for or against someone or some thing based on race. That doesn't mean race isn't seen or acknowledged. And I stated that is not the same as having a bias or preference for a particular food item, sports team, etc...My response is that some people do and some people don't.
I think you're getting way too hung up on sticking to your rigid definition of "bias" and failing to see the bigger picture.
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No I didn't say that. Seeing color, and having color bias are two very different things. I was responding to the notion that everyone has racial bias. I asked for examples and clarity, and, I responded based on that. I even offered acknowledgement of racial advantages/disadvantages and so on. Racial bias implies a personal preference for or against someone or some thing based on race. That doesn't mean race isn't seen or acknowledged. And I stated that is not the same as having a bias or preference for a particular food item, sports team, etc...My response is that some people do and some people don't.
'Personal preference' implies intent or at least knowledge, and therefore conscious awareness.
IMO, 'racial bias' is broader than that, and encompasses both conscious awareness plus the unconscious beliefs we hold.
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I think you're getting way too hung up on sticking to your rigid definition of "bias" and failing to see the bigger picture.
Can you give me your definition of the word bias? I ask because you used the word 3 times in your last post and as your primary word in the one before that. So that is what I used. The definition isn't mine. I am certainly open to other interpretations of it.
Going back some posts, I can acknowledge the power component to race of which Fluffy Blue Monster described but when he says we all have prejudices...I am less inclined to agree if the topic is race. Some or many people, sure, yes. Everyone? Food? Sure. That doesn't mean people don"t see race every day. That doesn't mean all that goes into race isn't understood or acknowledged.
This doesn't mean power structures, systemic racism, advantages, disadvantages aren't understood or don't exist. If this is what you mean, I would easily agree with that. But if we are talking personal choice, as opposed to those things, my answer would be more inclined to say some people.
We can move on, but I don't believe all people have personal preferences based on race. Are some people, many people, socially conditioned this way? Yep. Of course. But some aren't as well. Everyone is farther than I would go with that.
I'm sure one could say I have racial preferences or bias to increase racial equality, opportunity, and diversity for all races. But I would say that's just so that the playing field can be leveled for everyone, which of course it isn't.
I asked the questions because are we talking about people being born white, with advantages, acknowledging systemic racism, individual people racism etc....or are we saying every single person here and elsewhere has racial bias or racial preference in some aspect of life? Certainly some, many do. We all know these people and situations, many are on this board.
Specific examples are a way of finding clarity of the topic and agreement (or not). For example, I've been in a car with black people who were pulled over because they were driving while black. That, as a white person would not likely happen to me without some cause, even small. That is an example of racism and racial bias that existed with that police officer. Or I have been in high crime neighborhoods, the example previously mentioned, where someone's guard may be up. But that is because of the crime and not the race for some, and the opposite for others. And so on...Let"s say someone likes all kinds of music, but some more than others, and/or some artists more than others. Example, someone who doesn't like a lot or hip hop or rap music, maybe some. For some people that choice is about the art and for some there is a racial component. Or country music etc...that doesn't mean these people are not acknowledging the racial components of these artists or genres. Understanding racial bias exists in a wide variety of topics and situations, doesn't mean everyone has it.
I circle back to temperament/personality, of which there are a variety. Just as there is a variety of answers to racial bias.
I certainly don't want it to be petulant or pedantic or nitpicking, but it seems an important enough topic for clarity.
I appreciate the conversation, as some are unwilling to discuss race as it is some sort of uncomfortable for them. Thanks 👍
Now if we can bump MU's Black student population from 4% to double digits, as well as Hispanic, Asian, etc...and perhaps take that almost 75% from WI/IL and get that under 50%....but that's another topic altogether.
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'Personal preference' implies intent or at least knowledge, and therefore conscious awareness.
IMO, 'racial bias' is broader than that, and encompasses both conscious awareness plus the unconscious beliefs we hold.
And that is really the question(s). Do you believe all people have both of these or just some? If so, can you provide an example(s). I am not seeking to disagree, and my opinion is certainly amenable.
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Can you give me your definition of the word bias? I ask because you used the word 3 times in your last post and as your primary word in the one before that.
I don't mean to be snarky or short with you, but you clearly want to convince someone that there's a lucky few among us - a group that includes you? - who've managed to break free of the biases that afflict the rest of humanity.
If that's what you wish to believe, fine. I really don't have much interest in trying to debate you out of that thinking.
But to answer your question, bias here means prejudice. As in, we subconsciously pre-judge people, develop attitudes and beliefs about people, based on how they look.
If you've somehow managed to overcome millennia of evolutionary psychology and centuries of social conditioning and are free of these biases, congrats. I'm skeptical though.
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It is theoretically possible for a person to be free of both explicit and implicit bias. I have yet to meet such a person
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I don't mean to be snarky or short with you, but you clearly want to convince someone that there's a lucky few among us - a group that includes you? - who've managed to break free of the biases that afflict the rest of humanity.
If that's what you wish to believe, fine. I really don't have much interest in trying to debate you out of that thinking.
But to answer your question, bias here means prejudice. As in, we subconsciously pre-judge people, develop attitudes and beliefs about people, based on how they look.
If you've somehow managed to overcome millennia of evolutionary psychology and centuries of social conditioning and are free of these biases, congrats. I'm skeptical though.
I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything. It’s certainly an honest conversation.
I don’t believe everyone, all people, etc...pre-judge people, especially negatively, based on how they look, with the topic being race, skin color etc.. Does it happen every day? Sure? Is it common? Sure. We see it every day. Are there people that don’t do this? Sure. It’s a mix in my opinion. I knew plenty of racists at MU for example, overt, closet, joking etc..whatever style or form. Again, that doesn’t mean there isn’t knowledge or awareness of these things that exist in high quantities everywhere daily. We can move on.
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It is theoretically possible for a person to be free of both explicit and implicit bias. I have yet to meet such a person
Based on race alone? Color of skin
I am not saying explicit and implicit bias do not exist regarding race. It certainly exists within some people, perhaps many people. But yes I am saying not everyone engages in both or either. So I suppose I have met some of those people. I’m happy to respectfully disagree and move on. 👍
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Based on race alone? Color of skin
I am not saying explicit and implicit bias do not exist regarding race. It certainly exists within some people, perhaps many people. But yes I am saying not everyone engages in both or either. So I suppose I have met some of those people. I’m happy to respectfully disagree and move on. 👍
Then respectfully, you know a lot of unicorns.
Not engaging in racial bias and not having racial bias are two different things. Everyone has it, but some are conscious of it and choose not to engage in it.
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Based on race alone? Color of skin
I am not saying explicit and implicit bias do not exist regarding race. It certainly exists within some people, perhaps many people. But yes I am saying not everyone engages in both or either. So I suppose I have met some of those people. I’m happy to respectfully disagree and move on. 👍
Serious question ... how could you possibly know what others' implicit biases are?
I'd suggest you probably aren't even aware of many of your own implicit biases, much less that of others.
Lack of awareness/conscious thought is what makes implicit biases implicit.
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Serious question ... how could you possibly know what others' implicit biases are?
I'd suggest you probably aren't even aware of many of your own implicit biases, much less that of others.
Lack of awareness/conscious thought is what makes implicit biases implicit.
It isn't about me.
Specific examples would help. Any random example. White person walks alone in high crime neighborhood. Crosses street when sees oncoming black person. Some would cross the street or get a negative vibe, some wouldn't. Some would get a negative vibe based on previous or past racial conditioning, some wouldn't. Some would cross the street because of race, others might because of the high crime area etc....and that's really the point.
A person is 400 pounds. A person is 100 pounds. You may think this person is very heavy or this person is very thin. But that isn't a bias against either of those people or a pre-judgement. It's just an observation, a recognition. It certainly can and does become a pre-judgement for some or many people, but not all.
People as a category are much different than objects or things. That is different. I have used the pizza example before. Someone eats pizza, NYC, CT, South Jersey, Detroit, Chicago, Stl, Neopolitan on and on....and says they like all but they prefer certain types of pizza more often over others. or they may even say they absolutely do not like a certain type of pizza. .....this of course different from pre-judging people...which again happens frequently every day, but, not everyone does it.
Do you see the pattern here? n every example, there will be a mix as opposes to an everyone or all
(I don't want to stray too far too often away from the topic of race in the examples)
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And that is really the question(s). Do you believe all people have both of these or just some? If so, can you provide an example(s). I am not seeking to disagree, and my opinion is certainly amenable.
Every person on this planet has unconscious thoughts and beliefs that drive their actions.
Is it theoretically possible that a person exists in whom every one of those unconscious thoughts and beliefs is completely 'skin color' neutral? I suppose it's possible on a planet with 5 billion people, but I kinda doubt it.
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Based on race alone? Color of skin
I am not saying explicit and implicit bias do not exist regarding race. It certainly exists within some people, perhaps many people. But yes I am saying not everyone engages in both or either. So I suppose I have met some of those people. I’m happy to respectfully disagree and move on. 👍
You desperately want to be on the “good guys” team. It gives you license to criticize the folks on the “bad guys” team. Which makes you feel better (superior?) about yourself. Not picking on you. We all, to one degree or another, share that “quality”.
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You desperately want to be on the “good guys” team. It gives you license to criticize the folks on the “bad guys” team. Which makes you feel better (superior?) about yourself. Not picking on you. We all, to one degree or another, share that “quality”.
Huh?
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It isn't about me.
Specific examples would help. Any random example. White person walks alone in high crime neighborhood. Crosses street when sees oncoming black person. Some would cross the street or get a negative vibe, some wouldn't. Some would get a negative vibe based on previous or past racial conditioning, some wouldn't. Some would cross the street because of race, others might because of the high crime area etc....and that's really the point.
A person is 400 pounds. A person is 100 pounds. You may think this person is very heavy or this person is very thin. But that isn't a bias against either of those people or a pre-judgement. It's just an observation, a recognition. It certainly can and does become a pre-judgement for some or many people, but not all.
People as a category are much different than objects or things. That is different. I have used the pizza example before. Someone eats pizza, NYC, CT, South Jersey, Detroit, Chicago, Stl, Neopolitan on and on....and says they like all but they prefer certain types of pizza more often over others. or they may even say they absolutely do not like a certain type of pizza. .....this of course different from pre-judging people...which again happens frequently every day, but, not everyone does it.
Do you see the pattern here? n every example, there will be a mix as opposes to an everyone or all
(I don't want to stray too far too often away from the topic of race in the examples)
Let me help.
https://www.vox.com/2014/12/26/7443979/racism-implicit-racial-bias
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Let me help.
https://www.vox.com/2014/12/26/7443979/racism-implicit-racial-bias
I am not saying implicit or explicit racial bias does not exist. I am not saying that it doesn't have a significant presence. But yes I am saying not everyone has it. Even this article says generally or in general not specifically for everyone.
I don't believe we are all that far apart here. But yes I am unwilling to say all, everyone etc...I believe it is much more of a mix than that. It's what I believe. I'm not sure what else I can say.
As I said, I am happy to objectively entertain any very specific examples not knowing what they are or how I would respond. Maybe I would concede something 100% in an example or not or something else. Who knows? But that would probably be more effective than generalities....at least for me.
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Let me help.
https://www.vox.com/2014/12/26/7443979/racism-implicit-racial-bias
Shocker that you read Vox.
As it relates to racism, all one needs to know is that the only people who are racist are Whites. (Or at least that's what NY Times, WaPost, CNN, MSNBC, Huff Post, Vox suggest.) That being said, I wonder why people of color immigrate to Anglo countries? So strange.
Sheep along, sheep.
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Shocker that you read Vox.
As it relates to racism, all one needs to know is that the only people who are racist are Whites. (Or at least that's what NY Times, WaPost, CNN, MSNBC, Huff Post, Vox suggest.) That being said, I wonder why people of color immigrate to Anglo countries? So strange.
Sheep along, sheep.
Well this first part isn't true at all. Anyone can be racist. It takes at least a local plurality to have an actual impact.
As far as why people move to Anglo countries that only refers to England and the socialized health care and better maternity plan have something to do with it.
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Well this first part isn't true at all. Anyone can be racist. It takes at least a local plurality to have an actual impact.
As far as why people move to Anglo countries that only refers to England and the socialized health care and better maternity plan have something to do with it.
What about saxon countries?
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Then respectfully, you know a lot of unicorns.
Not engaging in racial bias and not having racial bias are two different things. Everyone has it, but some are conscious of it and choose not to engage in it.
Does that include people of color as well?
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Does that include people of color as well?
POC are included in everyone
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Shocker that you read Vox.
As it relates to racism, all one needs to know is that the only people who are racist are Whites. (Or at least that's what NY Times, WaPost, CNN, MSNBC, Huff Post, Vox suggest.) That being said, I wonder why people of color immigrate to Anglo countries? So strange.
Sheep along, sheep.
No, I don't typically any website front to back, but this clearly defined what we were talking about and it was a couple of years old.
You're nearly as unhinged as your orange emperor.
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What about saxon countries?
I was a tuba player in middle school band. I admit I had bias against the woodwinds.
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So, why is fighting Irish ok these days???????
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So, why is fighting Irish ok these days???????
It isn't.
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So, why is fighting Irish ok these days???????
Been saying that for years. If a bunch of idiotic Irish Americans around the country stopped taking pride in it and realized it was a mocking mascot initially maybe thered eventually be enough traction to change it.
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So, why is fighting Irish ok these days???????
Well, nothing about ND is okay. It's all terrible.
But serious answer: Its okay for the same reason why UNC Pembroke (a traditional native american serving institution) being the Braves is okay. There is a difference between someone using something from their own culture as a mascot and someone using someone else's culture as a mascot. Notre Dame was an Irish serving institution back when Irish were considered minorities and to this day a large % of their students claim Irish heritage.
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Well, nothing about ND is okay. It's all terrible.
But serious answer: Its okay for the same reason why UNC Pembroke (a traditional native american serving institution) being the Braves is okay. There is a difference between someone using something from their own culture as a mascot and someone using someone else's culture as a mascot. Notre Dame was an Irish serving institution back when Irish were considered minorities and to this day a large % of their students claim Irish heritage.
I have ancestors from all parts of Great Britain - mostly England and Scotland.
If we can get a few others, maybe we could petition the BOT to change our nickname to the Brawlin' Brits.
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Well, nothing about ND is okay. It's all terrible.
But serious answer: Its okay for the same reason why UNC Pembroke (a traditional native american serving institution) being the Braves is okay. There is a difference between someone using something from their own culture as a mascot and someone using someone else's culture as a mascot. Notre Dame was an Irish serving institution back when Irish were considered minorities and to this day a large % of their students claim Irish heritage.
ND sucks
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ND sucks
Indeed. That's the only important point of this conversation
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So, why is fighting Irish ok these days???????
Because the original Fighting Irish is the fighting 69th infantry regiment. The name was given by Robert E. Lee during the Civil War. The regiment leads the NYC St. Patrick's Day Parade with their mascot, an Irish Wolfhound.
Then along comes some school in nowheresville Indiana with a football team of mostly Polish coal miners.
The NYC subway alumni become big fans and name the team the Fighting Irish, a name familiar to their NYC Irish heritage.
Believe what you want but my facts are correct and I'm sticking to them.
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Because the original Fighting Irish is the fighting 69th infantry regiment. The name was given by Robert E. Lee during the Civil War. The regiment leads the NYC St. Patrics day parade with their mascot, an Irish Wolfhound.
Then along comes some school in nowheresville Indiana with a football team of mostly Polish coal miners.
The NYC subway alumni become big fans and name the team the Fighting Irish, a name familiar to their NYC Irish heritage.
Believe what you want but my facts are correct and I'm sticking to them.
Robert E Lee owned slaves, therefore Fighting Irish is racist.
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that's weird cuz the word around here is you are good with skin flutes
Oh hey look, a gay joke. Those are always very funny!
Stay classy.
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Robert E Lee owned slaves, therefore Fighting Irish is racist.
I can go with that.
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Oh hey look, a gay joke. Those are always very funny!
Stay classy.
it's not a joke
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that's weird cuz the word around here is you are good with skin flutes
Damn. That would have stung back in middle school.
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it's not a joke
Are you honestly still confused why people might have a negative opinion of you based on your posts here?
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Are you honestly still confused why people might have a negative opinion of you based on your posts here?
Definitely the least racist, least homophobic, least sexist poster on Scoop. How anyone could think otherwise is baffling.
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The NYPD union just endorced Trump. Sounds political to me. Not suprising as there are so many Fighting Irish on the force. Amazing how far the Fighting Irish of New York have come.
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Scripture readings today we're about acceptance of 'the other'. About judging people by their actions, not by their otherness.
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Because the original Fighting Irish is the fighting 69th infantry regiment. The name was given by Robert E. Lee during the Civil War. The regiment leads the NYC St. Patrick's Day Parade with their mascot, an Irish Wolfhound.
Then along comes some school in nowheresville Indiana with a football team of mostly Polish coal miners.
The NYC subway alumni become big fans and name the team the Fighting Irish, a name familiar to their NYC Irish heritage.
Believe what you want but my facts are correct and I'm sticking to them.
https://www.irishpost.com/news/notre-dame-university-defends-use-of-fighting-irish-nickname-and-leprechaun-mascot-189481
“One reported use of the phrase came in 1899 when Northwestern University students chanted, “Kill the fighting Irish” during a football game. At the time, anti-Catholicism and anti-immigrant sentiments were openly expressed in the United States and, since Notre Dame was largely populated by ethnic Catholics – mostly Irish, but also Germans, Italians and Poles – the University was a natural target for ethnic slurs.
“When the Notre Dame football team gained national prominence in the first three decades of the 20th century, journalists of the day, especially New York Daily News columnist Francis Wallace, a Notre Dame alumnus, began to popularize the “fighting Irish” tag in their stories.
“Soon, Notre Dame supporters took it up, turning what once was an epithet into an “in-your-face” expression of triumph. The University had no official nickname at the time, but as Fighting Irish, Catholics and Ramblers were variously applied to it in the press and public, Notre Dame’s president, Father Matthew Walsh (an Irishman), officially adopted Fighting Irish in 1927.”
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Well, nothing about ND is okay. It's all terrible.
But serious answer: Its okay for the same reason why UNC Pembroke (a traditional native american serving institution) being the Braves is okay. There is a difference between someone using something from their own culture as a mascot and someone using someone else's culture as a mascot. Notre Dame was an Irish serving institution back when Irish were considered minorities and to this day a large % of their students claim Irish heritage.
Yep. And, it has the largest Irish Language Program outside of Ireland and 15 of their 17 presidents have been of Irish decent. The name wasn’t adopted due to cultural appropriation, it was the result of Irish pride.
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Definitely the least racist, least homophobic, least sexist poster on Scoop. How anyone could think otherwise is baffling.
you're the one with the most divisive, hateful and racist name on scoop...ALM if you really are a christian
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it's not a joke
You haven’t been worth the effort for a long time now.
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you're the one with the most divisive, hateful and racist name on scoop...ALM if you really are a christian
You trying to say you’re a good Christian is just delicious.
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you're the one with the most divisive, hateful and racist name on scoop...ALM if you really are a christian
When has he proclaimed himself to be a Christian?
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you're the one with the most divisive, hateful and racist name on scoop...ALM if you really are a christian
Jesus must have been a bad Christian, what with all his "blessed are the poor" and "rich won't enter the kingdom of heaven" stuff, huh?
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Outside of Fahrenheit 451, I don't no if any y'all rippers went ta church today?
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Thanks, Dr. Scrivello.
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Outside of Fahrenheit 451, I don't no if any y'all rippers went ta church today?
Matthew 6: 1-6
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you're the one with the most divisive, hateful and racist name on scoop...ALM if you really are a christian
If All Lives Matter, don't Black Lives Matter?
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Matthew 6: 1-6
Lol
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If All Lives Matter, don't Black Lives Matter?
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https://www.irishpost.com/news/notre-dame-university-defends-use-of-fighting-irish-nickname-and-leprechaun-mascot-189481
“One reported use of the phrase came in 1899 when Northwestern University students chanted, “Kill the fighting Irish” during a football game. At the time, anti-Catholicism and anti-immigrant sentiments were openly expressed in the United States and, since Notre Dame was largely populated by ethnic Catholics – mostly Irish, but also Germans, Italians and Poles – the University was a natural target for ethnic slurs.
“When the Notre Dame football team gained national prominence in the first three decades of the 20th century, journalists of the day, especially New York Daily News columnist Francis Wallace, a Notre Dame alumnus, began to popularize the “fighting Irish” tag in their stories.
“Soon, Notre Dame supporters took it up, turning what once was an epithet into an “in-your-face” expression of triumph. The University had no official nickname at the time, but as Fighting Irish, Catholics and Ramblers were variously applied to it in the press and public, Notre Dame’s president, Father Matthew Walsh (an Irishman), officially adopted Fighting Irish in 1927.”
Great read, thanks.
The fight with the KKK is noteworthy.
I'm amazed how little history people know, but have such strongly held unfounded beliefs.
Most people don't know where they came from, especially Americans.
The Irish Ehco has come out against "T" shirts appearing in and around N.Y. saying, Irish Lives Matter. Some people just don't understand and there are always ideologues around to take advantage.
Divide and conquer is the strategy, pitty.
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This has run its course.