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Author Topic: Illinois - Sports Gambling  (Read 2950 times)

Coleman

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2020, 10:34:23 AM »
With Arlington closing and being put up for sale, one of the Chicago sports owners (or a future perspective owner) should buy that land. I can't think of a better spot for a future stadium than Arlington. Plenty of land, Metra line literally at the entrance, plenty of highway access.

A perspective Bears owner should buy that land and squat on it asap.

it is closing, like for good? or just for sale?

Pakuni

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2020, 10:52:51 AM »
With Arlington closing and being put up for sale, one of the Chicago sports owners (or a future perspective owner) should buy that land. I can't think of a better spot for a future stadium than Arlington. Plenty of land, Metra line literally at the entrance, plenty of highway access.

A perspective Bears owner should buy that land and squat on it asap.

I don't see the village going along with that, unless the Bears can convince them it's a year-round facility. Even then, it would be a challenge. That property is arguably more valuable as a mixed-use development - especially in terms of generating local tax revenue - similar to what's being done with the former Motorola campus in Schaumburg and the AT&T campus in Hoffman Estates.

On top of that, given the state's financial condition, all the money it poured into the Soldier Field renovation and the unpopularity of moving the team to the suburbs among the Chicago legislators, the Bears would have a hard time getting public funding, at least anytime soon. Are they willing to invest a couple billion on their own? Especially when they have sweetheart deal at Soldier?

The Bears actually had a good opportunity to buy the property cheap in the 90s, but chose to remain at Soldier Field. It makes a ton of sense for a lot of reasons, but I'm not sure the political backing would be there anytime in the next decade or so. And while the village can't stop the Bears from buying the land and squatting on it for 15 years, that wouldn't be very helpful when the team comes looking for the zoning, permits and public funding it would need to do something with the site.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 10:55:37 AM by Pakuni »

DegenerateDish

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2020, 12:04:20 PM »
I don't see the village going along with that, unless the Bears can convince them it's a year-round facility. Even then, it would be a challenge. That property is arguably more valuable as a mixed-use development - especially in terms of generating local tax revenue - similar to what's being done with the former Motorola campus in Schaumburg and the AT&T campus in Hoffman Estates.

On top of that, given the state's financial condition, all the money it poured into the Soldier Field renovation and the unpopularity of moving the team to the suburbs among the Chicago legislators, the Bears would have a hard time getting public funding, at least anytime soon. Are they willing to invest a couple billion on their own? Especially when they have sweetheart deal at Soldier?

The Bears actually had a good opportunity to buy the property cheap in the 90s, but chose to remain at Soldier Field. It makes a ton of sense for a lot of reasons, but I'm not sure the political backing would be there anytime in the next decade or so. And while the village can't stop the Bears from buying the land and squatting on it for 15 years, that wouldn't be very helpful when the team comes looking for the zoning, permits and public funding it would need to do something with the site.

I wouldn't call the Bears deal at Soldier a sweetheart deal, it was really a game of chicken between the Bears and the city, and handled terribly by both sides. The Park District still owns Soldier Field, the Bears pay around $6 million a year in rent (overall I think the McCaskeys had to pay $250 mil as their portion of the stadium construction costs). Daley included a clause where they couldn't sell the naming rights, the Bears don't get a dime from any non Bears events at the stadium, and with one of the smallest seating capacities, they aren't maximizing premium seating revenues at Soldier.

I don't disagree with you on the mixed-use development idea. I do think, in my hypothetical, that a prospective new owner would fund the stadium construction themselves, and work with Arlington Heights on a sweetheart tax deal on the backend. When you look at Patriot Place, and what the Rams are building to go along with the stadium, it would make sense to own/build the stadium and keep the revenues that would come with a future Super Bowl/Final Four/Wrestlemania/Concerts. All those events would flock to a domed stadium in Arlington Heights.

To be clear, I don't think my idea will happen at all. My thought process is from a pure logistical set up, that specific spot would be perfect for a new stadium.
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DegenerateDish

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2020, 12:24:48 PM »
One other idea I'll float...

I've long been an advocate for a second NFL team in the Chicago market. It'd have to be an AFC team, it would have to take an owner with really deep pockets, who currently has an unfavorable stadium situation and market. Ideally it would be someone with connections here in the state.

The Chicago Jaguars (they would probably re-brand) make a lot of sense.
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JWags85

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2020, 12:33:33 PM »
One other idea I'll float...

I've long been an advocate for a second NFL team in the Chicago market. It'd have to be an AFC team, it would have to take an owner with really deep pockets, who currently has an unfavorable stadium situation and market. Ideally it would be someone with connections here in the state.

The Chicago Jaguars (they would probably re-brand) make a lot of sense.

Khan is such an interesting piece here. Cause honestly, he’s also the PERFECT person to have the first international team, in London, given his ownership of Fulham.  There are significant hurdles there, obviously, but just furthering the point that Khan is a dynamic piece beyond just the Jags being a mess in Jax (he also owns significant developments in Toronto)

Coleman

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2020, 02:02:46 PM »
One other idea I'll float...

I've long been an advocate for a second NFL team in the Chicago market. It'd have to be an AFC team, it would have to take an owner with really deep pockets, who currently has an unfavorable stadium situation and market. Ideally it would be someone with connections here in the state.

The Chicago Jaguars (they would probably re-brand) make a lot of sense.

I seriously doubt this market can support 2 NFL teams.

Re: Arlington Heights, the trend, at least until COVID hit, was for teams to move back into cities, not away from them (see Chicago Fire). COVID may change this. COVID may change a lot of things. But the time for moving teams to the burbs was 40 years ago.

dgies9156

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2020, 02:50:05 PM »
With Arlington closing and being put up for sale, one of the Chicago sports owners (or a future perspective owner) should buy that land. I can't think of a better spot for a future stadium than Arlington. Plenty of land, Metra line literally at the entrance, plenty of highway access.

A perspective Bears owner should buy that land and squat on it asap.

Richard J. Daley:    So you want to move the Chicago Bears to Arlington Heights?
George Halas Sr:    That's correct Mr. Mayor. We need a stadium. Wrigley Field isn't working any more.
Mayor Daley:          But Arlington Heights?
Halas:                    Yes, Mr. Mayor, Arlington Heights!
Mayor Daley:          Then you damn well better call yourselves the Arlington Heights Bears!!!!

Mayor R2D2:          So, you are thinking about moving the Chicago Bears to Northwest Indiana?
Mike McCaskey:      That's correct Mr. Mayor. They're offering quite a stadium deal in Buffington Harbor
R2D2:                    I'm really sorry to hear that, Mr. McCaskey. The Chicago Bears are a really important part of our city.
McCaskey:              I know, but I need a stadium and I really don't want to pay for it.
R2D2:                    Well, we're really sorry. I can only say I wish you luck in Indiana. I'm responsible to the people of the City of Chicago and we're going
                             to go out and declare the Chicago franchise of the NFL open, since you are now in Indiana, and seek solicitations for NFL franchises
                             that would like to take advantage of the nation's third largest market. If San Francisco and the Baltimore-Washington markets can
                             support two teams, so can we!
McCaskey:              Let's not be so hasty! Perhaps we can work something out!

They're not going anywhere! They've tried twice now.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 02:54:11 PM by dgies9156 »

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2020, 02:57:13 PM »
Richard J. Daley:    So you want to move the Chicago Bears to Arlington Heights?
George Halas Sr:    That's correct Mr. Mayor. We need a stadium. Wrigley Field isn't working any more.
Mayor Daley:          But Arlington Heights?
Halas:                    Yes, Mr. Mayor, Arlington Heights!
Mayor Daley:          Then you damn well better call yourselves the Arlington Heights Bears!!!!

Mayor R2D2:          So, you are thinking about moving the Chicago Bears to Northwest Indiana?
Mike McCaskey:      That's correct Mr. Mayor. They're offering quite a stadium deal in Buffington Harbor
R2D2:                    I'm really sorry to hear that, Mr. McCaskey. The Chicago Bears are a really important part of our city.
McCaskey:              I know, but I need a stadium and I really don't want to pay for it.
R2D2:                    Well, we're really sorry. I can only say I wish you luck in Indiana. I'm responsible to the people of the City of Chicago and we're going
                             to go out and declare the Chicago franchise of the NFL open, since you are now in Indiana, and seek solicitations for NFL franchises
                             that would like to take advantage of the nation's third largest market. If San Francisco and the Baltimore-Washington markets can
                             support two teams, so can we!
McCaskey:              Let's not be so hasty! Perhaps we can work something out!

They're not going anywhere! They've tried twice now.


The mayor doesn't have trademark rights over the Chicago name and can't compel the NFL to declare the Chicago market open.

I think Dish has a great idea.  If anything it gives them leverage.  It could be 15-20 years before they need it.  The fact is that most fans would support it because it would be 100% easier to get to, tailgate, etc.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

dgies9156

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2020, 03:08:33 PM »

The mayor doesn't have trademark rights over the Chicago name and can't compel the NFL to declare the Chicago market open.

I think Dish has a great idea.  If anything it gives them leverage.  It could be 15-20 years before they need it.  The fact is that most fans would support it because it would be 100% easier to get to, tailgate, etc.

Fluff, the political threats from the first Mayor Daley were strong enough to get the Bears into Soldier Field in 1970. At the time, they had proposed building a stadium next to the racetrack.

R2D2 derailed the Indiana option almost on the spot. McCaskey was white as a ghost. It was a time when NFL franchises were threatening to move like meteors across the sky. R2D2 knew someone like Al Davis would kill for access to this market.

You might be able to mess with the Rams this way. But, I just don't think the NFL would be open to another team poaching Bear fans. And, business does not work the way you and Dish propose. No company with shareholders or owners expecting a return is going to sit on very valuable vacant land for a decade or more in hopes of getting an NFL franchise in the Northwest Suburbs. Plus, more than a few people have died and met their eternal reward waiting for the McCaskeys to sell. Not gonna happen.

As a final thought, have you been to White Sox Park in Itasca lately? Maybe you're too young to remember that one but the politicians in Illinois derailed that one too.



Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2020, 03:20:08 PM »
Fluff, the political threats from the first Mayor Daley were strong enough to get the Bears into Soldier Field in 1970. At the time, they had proposed building a stadium next to the racetrack.

R2D2 derailed the Indiana option almost on the spot. McCaskey was white as a ghost. It was a time when NFL franchises were threatening to move like meteors across the sky. R2D2 knew someone like Al Davis would kill for access to this market.

You might be able to mess with the Rams this way. But, I just don't think the NFL would be open to another team poaching Bear fans. And, business does not work the way you and Dish propose. No company with shareholders or owners expecting a return is going to sit on very valuable vacant land for a decade or more in hopes of getting an NFL franchise in the Northwest Suburbs. Plus, more than a few people have died and met their eternal reward waiting for the McCaskeys to sell. Not gonna happen.

As a final thought, have you been to White Sox Park in Itasca lately? Maybe you're too young to remember that one but the politicians in Illinois derailed that one too.



This aint the 1970s.  The mayor of Chicago isn't as powerful, and the NFL certainly is moreso.  The NFL isn't going to stick a new team in Chicago, or allow one to relocate there, and will do whatever it can to get a better stadium deal for one of its trademark franchises.  I mean, do you think Bears fans would change their alligiance because the team moves 25 miles west to a more convenient location?

The McCaskeys sell when Virginia dies and the family doesn't have to hold onto a billion dollar asset for sentimental reasons. Then you will see a new owner leverage the city big time when they want a new stadium.  It's happened time and time again.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

DegenerateDish

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2020, 03:32:39 PM »
Timing is also interesting here. With Covid going on, if there's no fans in the stadium, it will actually put a hurt on the McCaskey family bottom line. They are not independently wealthy people at all, the Bears are their source of income. Virginia is going to be 98 in about 5 months. If the 2020 and 2021 season see no fans or limited fans, I would watch the Bears ownership situation very closely.

Don't get me wrong, they won't be in the red, they'll be plenty profitable, but that's going to still be a substantial hit for the family.

I keep waiting for someone to pipe in with "there already is a second NFL team in Chicago, they wear green and gold". Which there is more than validity to, the Packers success with the Bears mostly mediocrity over the last two decades has seen some otherwise young potential Bear fans grow up to become Packer fans. I'm not saying it's a majority, but it's for sure happened.
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dgies9156

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2020, 03:59:17 PM »
Timing is also interesting here. With Covid going on, if there's no fans in the stadium, it will actually put a hurt on the McCaskey family bottom line. They are not independently wealthy people at all, the Bears are their source of income. Virginia is going to be 98 in about 5 months. If the 2020 and 2021 season see no fans or limited fans, I would watch the Bears ownership situation very closely.

Don't get me wrong, they won't be in the red, they'll be plenty profitable, but that's going to still be a substantial hit for the family.

Possibly. My general understanding is there are a boatload of shirt-tail relatives in the Halas/McCaskey clan who are living off cash flow dividended to them from the Chicago Bears. If there are no fans this year and, God forbid, next year, those dividends will decrease and the family will, well, look for other ways to satisfy their cash flow needs -- aka, sell and reinvest.

Pakuni

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2020, 04:07:40 PM »
I wouldn't call the Bears deal at Soldier a sweetheart deal, it was really a game of chicken between the Bears and the city, and handled terribly by both sides. The Park District still owns Soldier Field, the Bears pay around $6 million a year in rent (overall I think the McCaskeys had to pay $250 mil as their portion of the stadium construction costs).

Not to be argumentative, but according to Forbes, the Bears took in $166 million in stadium revenues last year, good for 12th best in the NFL.
And they do this without paying anything beyond their $6 million lease. No maintenance, no capital expenses, no employees, no taxes, etc. That seems pretty sweet to me.

As for a second team in Chicago, I can't imagine many circumstances in which three-fourths of league owners would want to plug a second team in an existing market.
First, it's not appealing to the TV networks. They'd rather be in more markets, not fewer.
Second, it sets a precedent that says "If we can move a second team into the Bears' market, then we can send a second team into your market." No owner wants a second team in his market.
Third, demographics don't support it. I personally love Chicago, but it's not a growth market these days.

As for the McCaskeys (Cheeks humblebrag coming), I actually know a few of them and the Bears form their identity. I very well may be wrong here - it's not like I'm in the inner circle by any stretch  -  but I can't imagine them selling anytime soon. At least not the current generation of owners or the generation after that.

DegenerateDish

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2020, 04:49:06 PM »
Not to be argumentative, but according to Forbes, the Bears took in $166 million in stadium revenues last year, good for 12th best in the NFL.
And they do this without paying anything beyond their $6 million lease. No maintenance, no capital expenses, no employees, no taxes, etc. That seems pretty sweet to me.

As for a second team in Chicago, I can't imagine many circumstances in which three-fourths of league owners would want to plug a second team in an existing market.
First, it's not appealing to the TV networks. They'd rather be in more markets, not fewer.
Second, it sets a precedent that says "If we can move a second team into the Bears' market, then we can send a second team into your market." No owner wants a second team in his market.
Third, demographics don't support it. I personally love Chicago, but it's not a growth market these days.

As for the McCaskeys (Cheeks humblebrag coming), I actually know a few of them and the Bears form their identity. I very well may be wrong here - it's not like I'm in the inner circle by any stretch  -  but I can't imagine them selling anytime soon. At least not the current generation of owners or the generation after that.

I don't think you're being argumentative, and I hope my response doesn't come across that way either.

The flip side of that is they earn $0 on parking, $0 on concessions, $0 on concerts/soccer games/etc. So yeah, their rent is cheap, they don't have to do any maintenance work themselves. But they do have to jump through hoops to get anything done in the stadium (more ad space, increase premium seating).

To your point about adding a second team, Chicago is still the third largest media market. If the NFL continues with an AFC/NFC rights deals with networks (caveat: I don't believe they will), adding an AFC team in Chicago would enhance the AFC rights. The NFL would hypothetically schedule the Bears/AFC team they way they do the Giants/Jets. If you ever look closely at an NFL schedule, the Giants and Jets rarely play in the same time window any week (I believe it's only twice this year when they do).

Do I honestly think it would happen to re-locate a team here? No, probably not. I do think though it's an interesting conversation. I think most people just think "Bears town" and aren't open to the idea (which I think is too old school of a mentality).
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ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2020, 06:42:12 PM »
Khan is such an interesting piece here. Cause honestly, he’s also the PERFECT person to have the first international team, in London, given his ownership of Fulham.  There are significant hurdles there, obviously, but just furthering the point that Khan is a dynamic piece beyond just the Jags being a mess in Jax (he also owns significant developments in Toronto)

Can't play NFL games at Craven Cottage though.  If only there was an NFL ready stadium in north London...

(Bold!) Prediction:  Spurs will be sold within the next few years to an American sports conglomerate and London will have a team at WHL.
And I am not frightened of dying. Any time will do, I don't mind. Why should I be frightened of dying? There's no reason for it – you've got to go sometime.    — Gerry O'Driscoll

JWags85

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2020, 11:20:12 PM »
Can't play NFL games at Craven Cottage though.  If only there was an NFL ready stadium in north London...

(Bold!) Prediction:  Spurs will be sold within the next few years to an American sports conglomerate and London will have a team at WHL.

I think it’s more likely Levy and ENIC buy-in/partner with an NFL ownership group than sell. Levy is a Spurs fan since he was a kid and his whole business revolves around Spurs.  They sold off their other football holdings and a lot of the other holdings as well.  With the new stadium, they are in it for the long haul. But I do agree there very likely will be a team at Hotspur Stadium in the next decade. They will figure out the travel and timing for their schedule and it’s on.

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2020, 11:29:35 PM »
I think it’s more likely Levy and ENIC buy-in/partner with an NFL ownership group than sell. Levy is a Spurs fan since he was a kid and his whole business revolves around Spurs.  They sold off their other football holdings and a lot of the other holdings as well.  With the new stadium, they are in it for the long haul. But I do agree there very likely will be a team at Hotspur Stadium in the next decade. They will figure out the travel and timing for their schedule and it’s on.

Joe Lewis is 83. Levy has a stake but no where close to a majority.   When Lewis goes, it's sale time. 

Hell, keep levy on as chairman.

I'd love to see a mark Cuban type buy them. 
And I am not frightened of dying. Any time will do, I don't mind. Why should I be frightened of dying? There's no reason for it – you've got to go sometime.    — Gerry O'Driscoll

Coleman

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2020, 04:00:30 PM »

I keep waiting for someone to pipe in with "there already is a second NFL team in Chicago, they wear green and gold". Which there is more than validity to, the Packers success with the Bears mostly mediocrity over the last two decades has seen some otherwise young potential Bear fans grow up to become Packer fans. I'm not saying it's a majority, but it's for sure happened.

Definitely. Especially in the northern burbs. It is a pretty football saturated market between the Bears and Packers

Coleman

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2020, 04:03:57 PM »

To your point about adding a second team, Chicago is still the third largest media market. If the NFL continues with an AFC/NFC rights deals with networks (caveat: I don't believe they will), adding an AFC team in Chicago would enhance the AFC rights. The NFL would hypothetically schedule the Bears/AFC team they way they do the Giants/Jets. If you ever look closely at an NFL schedule, the Giants and Jets rarely play in the same time window any week (I believe it's only twice this year when they do).


Per my last post, most networks already do this with the Packers and Bears, except when they are playing eachother. Adding another team to Chicago is basically having 3 teams in one media market. It is too much.

Coleman

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2020, 04:05:08 PM »
To be fair to Chicago, the Cubs are basically a 2nd baseball team in Wisconsin. It definitely goes both ways, depending on the sport.

I know A LOT of Cubs-Packers fans on both sides of the border.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 04:07:48 PM by Coleman »

DegenerateDish

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2020, 04:18:21 PM »
Good news! You can now legally bet on DK mobile in Illinois!

***If you live in Chicago, you have to drive nine hours round trip to East St. Louis to register at Casino Queen in person***

Someone could make a heck of a side business (on the down low) driving down to Casino Queen, getting a ton of people to commit (maybe $10 each) to having someone register for them. If I could get 100 people, I'd do it myself.
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Coleman

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2020, 04:30:30 PM »
Good news! You can now legally bet on DK mobile in Illinois!

***If you live in Chicago, you have to drive nine hours round trip to East St. Louis to register at Casino Queen in person***

Someone could make a heck of a side business (on the down low) driving down to Casino Queen, getting a ton of people to commit (maybe $10 each) to having someone register for them. If I could get 100 people, I'd do it myself.

Just registered from the northern burbs, and it is saying I also have to go down to Casino Queen in ESL. What a joke

Retire0

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2020, 06:08:55 AM »
Good news! You can now legally bet on DK mobile in Illinois!

***If you live in Chicago, you have to drive nine hours round trip to East St. Louis to register at Casino Queen in person***

Someone could make a heck of a side business (on the down low) driving down to Casino Queen, getting a ton of people to commit (maybe $10 each) to having someone register for them. If I could get 100 people, I'd do it myself.

Just registered from the northern burbs, and it is saying I also have to go down to Casino Queen in ESL. What a joke


I’ll pick you guys up around 8:45?
New TallTitan bold prediction: Sacar Anim will play in more NBA games than Markus Howard.

TallTitan's bold prediction of Davante Gardner being drafted in 2014.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27259.msg310060;topicseen#new

DegenerateDish

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2020, 09:23:58 AM »

I’ll pick you guys up around 8:45?

I call shotgun.
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Coleman

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Re: Illinois - Sports Gambling
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2020, 12:09:45 PM »
That actually would be a fun roadtrip. Drive down, gamble a bit, register, and drive home

 

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