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Marquette
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Date/Time: Oct 16, 2020?
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Schedule for 2019-20
18-12

Author Topic: MU 8th over 5 years?  (Read 3090 times)

Galway Eagle

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2020, 08:43:27 AM »
I don't disagree, but it shows how recruiting is just a piece of the puzzle. In the four years before Nova won the inaugural NBE, Nova didn't have a single #1 recruiting class. They were 4th three times and 2nd the year they won that first title. With upper-middle of the league recruiting, they built a juggernaut.

Targeting players that fit the system, won't leave when they face adversity, and are a bit better than the rankers project is all part of it. At times, Wojo has captured some of that (Anim) but too often, our recruits have come up short in some regard, whether leaving early (the vast majority of the 2015 class, the Hausers) or having yet to outperform expectations (Cain, John). But identifying, developing, and retaining players is the coach's job, so it's on him.

If we're on average the 8th best team in the league the next five years, Wojo should be gone. Honestly, I even think 4th is too low, but that's about as low as I'd say should be acceptable.

It dawned on me yesterday that wojos transfer team would likely beat a team of players that he graduated. I think you can weather a storm of transfers but it's not sustainable to constantly have the top guys leaving
“No justice. no peace. No racist police."

TAMU Eagle

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2020, 09:46:29 AM »
It dawned on me yesterday that wojos transfer team would likely beat a team of players that he graduated. I think you can weather a storm of transfers but it's not sustainable to constantly have the top guys leaving

Just out of curiosity I wanted to see what those rosters would look like:

Transfers/Go Pro/Left Team but Graduated:
1: Haanif Cheatham
2: Deonte Burton
3: Sam Hauser
4: Joey Hauser
5: Henry Ellenson
B1: Brendan Bailey
B2: Sandy Cohen
B3: Duane Wilson
B4: Gabe Levin
B5: Ed Morrow
B6: Traci Carter
B7: Steve Taylor
B8: John Dawson
B9: Harry Froling
B10: Wally Ellenson

Graduates (Assuming next year's seniors stay and graduate):
1: Andrew Rowsey
2: Markus Howard
3: Jajuan Johnson
4: Sacar Anim
5: Luke Fischer
B1: Matt Carlino
B2: Katin Reinhardt
B3: Koby McEwen
B4: Theo John
B5: Jamal Cain
B6: Jayce Johnson
B7: Juan Anderson
B8: Matt Heldt
B9: Joseph Chartouny
B10: Derrick Wilson

If you give the transfers the players who went pro and left the team but didn't go anywhere else then they actually have as many players as the team that has actually graduated (I believe Ed Morrow did graduate from MU but obviously left the team before the end of the season). I think the frontcourt of the left early team would be a lot of fun and give teams a lot of trouble, but they would struggle with guard play. Haanif is their best player who ever played any PG in his career and Duane is the best "true" PG. I'd give the small balling graduates the edge over the left early squad.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

Its DJOver

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2020, 09:57:48 AM »
Not even looking at MU, I think that there are some flaws with the original list, got the very top and bottom right of course but after that...  Intentionally done IMO to create debate, and look, it's working.

Galway Eagle

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2020, 10:02:25 AM »
Just out of curiosity I wanted to see what those rosters would look like:

Transfers/Go Pro/Left Team but Graduated:
1: Haanif Cheatham
2: Deonte Burton
3: Sam Hauser
4: Joey Hauser
5: Henry Ellenson
B1: Brendan Bailey
B2: Sandy Cohen
B3: Duane Wilson
B4: Gabe Levin
B5: Ed Morrow
B6: Traci Carter
B7: Steve Taylor
B8: John Dawson
B9: Harry Froling
B10: Wally Ellenson

Graduates (Assuming next year's seniors stay and graduate):
1: Andrew Rowsey
2: Markus Howard
3: Jajuan Johnson
4: Sacar Anim
5: Luke Fischer
B1: Matt Carlino
B2: Katin Reinhardt
B3: Koby McEwen
B4: Theo John
B5: Jamal Cain
B6: Jayce Johnson
B7: Juan Anderson
B8: Matt Heldt
B9: Joseph Chartouny
B10: Derrick Wilson

If you give the transfers the players who went pro and left the team but didn't go anywhere else then they actually have as many players as the team that has actually graduated (I believe Ed Morrow did graduate from MU but obviously left the team before the end of the season). I think the frontcourt of the left early team would be a lot of fun and give teams a lot of trouble, but they would struggle with guard play. Haanif is their best player who ever played any PG in his career and Duane is the best "true" PG. I'd give the small balling graduates the edge over the left early squad.

I don't know man. Tough for me to envision that Left lineup losing.

We know what a Howard Rowsey duo consists of. Sometimes bomb teams out the gym other times get smothered. Luke can't defend Henry, we saw him try against stretch 5s and do horrible. Joey over Sacar all day. Sacar could probably drive past but he gives up 5in (?) to Joey who could go Pt for pt. JJJ vs Sam would be interesting for a match up. But I give Sam the edge.

Burton seems to me like he could smother Howard. Big, physical, not Howard's forte but he'd still get 20.

Rowsey owns Haani all day for sure
“No justice. no peace. No racist police."

cheebs09

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2020, 10:29:07 AM »
I don't know man. Tough for me to envision that Left lineup losing.

We know what a Howard Rowsey duo consists of. Sometimes bomb teams out the gym other times get smothered. Luke can't defend Henry, we saw him try against stretch 5s and do horrible. Joey over Sacar all day. Sacar could probably drive past but he gives up 5in (?) to Joey who could go Pt for pt. JJJ vs Sam would be interesting for a match up. But I give Sam the edge.

Burton seems to me like he could smother Howard. Big, physical, not Howard's forte but he'd still get 20.

Rowsey owns Haani all day for sure

I agree. With that lineup I’d probably go Duane Wilson at point.

I get why he’s included, but feel like it’s a little misleading to have Henry in that category since he was a lottery pick. Wojo probably knew going in he was only staying one year. He wasn’t a recruiting miss or left because he’s unhappy at MU.

Elonsmusk

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2020, 10:33:23 AM »
There has been too much coaching turnover in the league the last 5 years.  Xavier, St. John’s, Butler and Georgetown have broken in new coaches.  Xavier and Butler went with their usual approaches.  It’s working at Butler, Xavier is still an open question.

On top of that, roster turnover across the league beyond graduation has been harmful.  Villanova has lost its share of players but most have been to early entry.  Marquette’s inability to get older across the board has hurt them.  It’s part of the business but it’s still harmful.

That’s why 2-8 are fairly fluid.  It’s also why I think Butler and Providence have been fairly consistent while not being spectacular.  For someone to challenge Villanova’s supremacy, coaching and roster stability is necessary.  Is it possible?

Huh?  Last season we started a Senior, 4th year Transfer Junior, 5th Year Redshirt Senior, 22 year old sophomore BB, and Theo a Junior/Jayce a grad transfer Senior.

There was 1 freshman on the roster last year.

We were also solidly experienced the prior year.

Not much separates 3-8 in the league, so while 8th looks terrible, it could still be a bubble NCAA team, which is ultimately probably the reality/ceiling with Wojo.
No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

Galway Eagle

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2020, 10:34:21 AM »
I agree. With that lineup I’d probably go Duane Wilson at point.

I get why he’s included, but feel like it’s a little misleading to have Henry in that category since he was a lottery pick. Wojo probably knew going in he was only staying one year. He wasn’t a recruiting miss or left because he’s unhappy at MU.

Henry wasn't a lotto pick he dropped to like 17 if I recall correctly. But still your point remains.
“No justice. no peace. No racist police."

drewm88

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2020, 11:34:40 AM »
1. Villanova
2. TBD
3. TBD
4. TBD
5. TBD
6. TBD
7. TBD
8. TBD
9. TBD
10. TBD
11. DePaul

Shooter McGavin

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2020, 11:43:02 AM »
1. Villanova
2. TBD
3. TBD
4. TBD
5. TBD
6. TBD
7. TBD
8. TBD
9. TBD
10. TBD
11. DePaul

This a good list.  The other one was silly.  No way to predict.   Hell, DePaul may even be middle of the pack soon.

Its DJOver

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2020, 12:50:13 PM »
Is the American really that much of a stronger league? UConn only managed 6th, 5th, 8th, 9th, and 5th place finishes over the last five years, but are projected to rank 2nd in the Big East over the next five years?

I think AE does a pretty nice job of covering this.  I understand Hurley is an upgrade over Ollie, but lets hold off on anointing them the second best team in the conference going forward.

https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2020/7/1/21306419/connecticut-huskies-mens-basketball-big-east-ranking-aac-american-losses

Herman Cain

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2020, 10:21:25 PM »

GooooMarquette

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2020, 11:26:36 PM »
1. Villanova
2. TBD
3. TBD
4. TBD
5. TBD
6. TBD
7. TBD
8. TBD
9. TBD
10. TBD
11. DePaul

Bold prediction, Cotton!

willie warrior

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2020, 07:00:37 AM »
Huh?  Last season we started a Senior, 4th year Transfer Junior, 5th Year Redshirt Senior, 22 year old sophomore BB, and Theo a Junior/Jayce a grad transfer Senior.

There was 1 freshman on the roster last year.

We were also solidly experienced the prior year.

Not much separates 3-8 in the league, so while 8th looks terrible, it could still be a bubble NCAA team, which is ultimately probably the reality/ceiling with Wojo.
Yes, Wojos ceiling is one constructed for a household full of munchkins.

Uncle Rico

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2020, 08:15:03 AM »
Yes, Wojos ceiling is one constructed for a household full of munchkins.

Thanks, Willie!
Fire Somebody

mileskishnish72

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2020, 08:43:38 AM »
8th is not acceptable given our Bball budget and our tradition.

Johnny B

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2020, 09:41:47 AM »
8th is not acceptable given our Bball budget and our tradition.
Yes it is. It's a good spot

drewm88

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2020, 10:26:13 AM »
This a good list.  The other one was silly.  No way to predict.   Hell, DePaul may even be middle of the pack soon.

I would probably slot Georgetown in at #10 as Ewing seems to be circling the drain, so their next 5 years will probably be dealing with that and trying to build with the new coach.

I could be convinced of pretty much any other team in any other slot.

Lennys Tap

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2020, 10:30:15 AM »
Huh?  Last season we started a Senior, 4th year Transfer Junior, 5th Year Redshirt Senior, 22 year old sophomore BB, and Theo a Junior/Jayce a grad transfer Senior.

There was 1 freshman on the roster last year.


Yep. If we weren’t the oldest team in D1 basketball last year we were certainly in the ream photo.

Galway Eagle

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2020, 10:48:17 AM »
Huh?  Last season we started a Senior, 4th year Transfer Junior, 5th Year Redshirt Senior, 22 year old sophomore BB, and Theo a Junior/Jayce a grad transfer Senior.

There was 1 freshman on the roster last year.

We were also solidly experienced the prior year.

Not much separates 3-8 in the league, so while 8th looks terrible, it could still be a bubble NCAA team, which is ultimately probably the reality/ceiling with Wojo.

While this is a good point about age it wasn't exactly a roster that played together for years.

Spinning it as: our starting 4 was a backup who played 1 year after sitting two, our starting 2 was a first year transfer after sitting out, our 6th man was a grad transfer getting used to a new system. Changes the narrative from age to cohesion.

I think "getting old" also implies a class growing together and knowing where each other are on the court at all times. Like what we would've expected had Sam been here with Sacar Sam and Howard.
“No justice. no peace. No racist police."

cheebs09

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2020, 11:25:20 AM »
While this is a good point about age it wasn't exactly a roster that played together for years.

Spinning it as: our starting 4 was a backup who played 1 year after sitting two, our starting 2 was a first year transfer after sitting out, our 6th man was a grad transfer getting used to a new system. Changes the narrative from age to cohesion.

I think "getting old" also implies a class growing together and knowing where each other are on the court at all times. Like what we would've expected had Sam been here with Sacar Sam and Howard.

True. Although if that’s the scenario Wojo needs for a deep tourney run we are in some trouble. With the amount of transfers in College BBall, it’s going to be tough to keep classes together.

#UnleashDiener

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2020, 11:37:46 AM »
Just out of curiosity I wanted to see what those rosters would look like:

Transfers/Go Pro/Left Team but Graduated:
1: Haanif Cheatham
2: Deonte Burton
3: Sam Hauser
4: Joey Hauser
5: Henry Ellenson
B1: Brendan Bailey
B2: Sandy Cohen
B3: Duane Wilson
B4: Gabe Levin
B5: Ed Morrow
B6: Traci Carter
B7: Steve Taylor
B8: John Dawson
B9: Harry Froling
B10: Wally Ellenson

Graduates (Assuming next year's seniors stay and graduate):
1: Andrew Rowsey
2: Markus Howard
3: Jajuan Johnson
4: Sacar Anim
5: Luke Fischer
B1: Matt Carlino
B2: Katin Reinhardt
B3: Koby McEwen
B4: Theo John
B5: Jamal Cain
B6: Jayce Johnson
B7: Juan Anderson
B8: Matt Heldt
B9: Joseph Chartouny
B10: Derrick Wilson

If you give the transfers the players who went pro and left the team but didn't go anywhere else then they actually have as many players as the team that has actually graduated (I believe Ed Morrow did graduate from MU but obviously left the team before the end of the season). I think the frontcourt of the left early team would be a lot of fun and give teams a lot of trouble, but they would struggle with guard play. Haanif is their best player who ever played any PG in his career and Duane is the best "true" PG. I'd give the small balling graduates the edge over the left early squad.

Mr Anderson could be a top player on the stayed team now.

Eldon

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2020, 12:13:22 PM »
It dawned on me yesterday that wojos transfer team would likely beat a team of players that he graduated. I think you can weather a storm of transfers but it's not sustainable to constantly have the top guys leaving

Not if that team is coached by Stan.

TAMU Eagle

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2020, 12:15:58 PM »
Mr Anderson could be a top player on the stayed team now.

For sure. When I put the rosters together, I was trying to limit it to how good they were when they were here. Juan would be dunking on almost every on the list at this point in his career.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

GooooMarquette

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Re: MU 8th over 5 years?
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2020, 01:34:14 PM »
For sure. When I put the rosters together, I was trying to limit it to how good they were when they were here. Juan would be dunking on almost every on the list at this point in his career.


Yep - Juan is the poster child of late-bloomers.

 

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