Georgia

[Hards Alumni]

Could not of said it better. I wonder how many here agree with Hards_alum that there should be no jail time for non-volient crimes like B&Es, embezzlement, perjury and I guess as long you don't harm the kid, kidnapping. I think I was the only one who disagreed with him.

I do agree with most here that there is systemic racism it just runs both ways. Until that stops there will be no end to it.

First off, literally anyone could have said it better. 



I said no jail time for non violent crimes.  I know simple things are hard for you to read, and then understand.  Easier to just be told what to think by your favorite talking head on cable news.

[Lennys Tap]

Did he discuss his views on how black people are inherently less intelligent than whites?
It's always interesting how those who hold such views always present themselves as just "being honest" and as settled science, which is far from the truth.
Anyhow, maybe I'll give it a listen. Who better to lead an honest discussion of black America than a wealthy white guy?

I think you're being less than honest about Sam Harris.

[The Sultan]

I should have suspected he didn't have the intellectual curiosity to look outside his Fox News / OAN bubble.  He's safe where he is.  It's comfortable there.


you guys are so predictable.  if someone disagrees with you or has an opposing point of view, claim they are too stupid and unaware of what's going on.  good one.  safe where i am?  how about you here on scoop?  us few conservatives are the ones who are constantly challenged.  real courage(out of your safety bubble)would be to challenge some of your liberal brethren here on scoop.  question the stuff that has continued to fail in our major cities.  that would be uncomfortable for you university types?  careful to stray from the "group think du jour"?  "safe bubble"??  the irony and the projection is special   

Yep. More talking points. Wonder if you'll ever run out?

[Pakuni]

I think you're being less than honest about Sam Harris.

Not really.


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/27/15695060/sam-harris-charles-murray-race-iq-forbidden-knowledge-podcast-bell-curve

[Lennys Tap]

Not really.


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/27/15695060/sam-harris-charles-murray-race-iq-forbidden-knowledge-podcast-bell-curve

I read the article - all it proves to me is that even left leaning scientists who are willing to consider data/facts that don't support the left's orthodoxy are unwelcome in conversations, especially those on the campuses.

[Pakuni]

I read the article - all it proves to me is that even left leaning scientists who are willing to consider data/facts that don't support the left's orthodoxy are unwelcome in conversations, especially those on the campuses.

You didn't read the article if that's what you think it said. I mean, that's not even close, Lenny.
Do you agree with Harris and Murray?

[MU82]

this is what i mean...how can one even respond to this.  so many false premises which of course come from your bias.  hard to have an honest dialogue with this,  once again, i'll have to hang up and let you guys circle jerk each other

There were no "false premises" at all in what I wrote. And again, you asked about systemic racism and a few of us have tried to give answers, but you didn't really want any answers. You aren't even willing to try to understand what is meant by it.

Sad to say, on the issue of race in America anyway, you're not worth having a discussion with. You've already made up your mind. Which, BTW, is another sign of systemic racism. Have a nice night.

[Lennys Tap]

You didn't read the article if that's what you think it said. I mean, that's not even close, Lenny.
Do you agree with Harris and Murray?

About what? IQ being mostly genetic? I think the data says yes, but I also agree that centuries of inequality contribute to differences among the races. Final answer? I don't know. But I am interested in what intellectuals and scientists extrapolate from data, whether I come to the same conclusions as them or not.

I have listened to many of Sam Harris's podcasts. Sometimes I agree with his conclusions, sometimes I don't. But they do make me think and challenge my preconceived notions. I don't think that there is even a little bit of racism in Sam Harris. But unlike people interested in defending orthodoxy (like Vox), the data sometimes leads him to leave the reservation.

Maybe that's not for you, but if so I'm surprised.

[Pakuni]

About what? IQ being mostly genetic? I think the data says yes, but I also agree that centuries of inequality contribute to differences among the races. Final answer? I don't know. But I am interested in what intellectuals and scientists extrapolate from data, whether I come to the same conclusions as them or not.

I have listened to many of Sam Harris's podcasts. Sometimes I agree with his conclusions, sometimes I don't. But they do make me think and challenge my preconceived notions. I don't think that there is even a little bit of racism in Sam Harris. But unlike people interested in defending orthodoxy (like Vox), the data sometimes leads him to leave the reservation.

Maybe that's not for you, but if so I'm surprised.

I think you know that's not the question I was asking, but I can understand why you didn't answer.
I do think you're deceiving yourself if you believe a guy who's made his name attacking religion is somehow free of orthodoxy, but so be it.
Anyhow, I suggest you read the Harris-Klein debate, the transcript of which is linked below. You may find it interesting. I particularly enjoyed Sam's insistence that he's somehow immune to tribalism and identity politics.

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/9/17210248/sam-harris-ezra-klein-charles-murray-transcript-podcast

[MU82]

I do agree with most here that there is systemic racism it just runs both ways.

Please, please, please, PLEASE tell us that you don't really believe that the systems in place regarding criminal justice, housing, health care, political policy-setting, employment, education, etc, have been keeping the white man down in America these last several centuries.

Please.

[Jockey]

Please, please, please, PLEASE tell us that you don't really believe that the systems in place regarding criminal justice, housing, health care, political policy-setting, employment, education, etc, have been keeping the white man down in America these last several centuries.

Please.

I think we ALL know where MU 69 is coming from here.

[MU82]

I think we ALL know where MU 69 is coming from here.

Don't rush to judgment. Maybe he just misspoke. We all do it occasionally.

Seriously, let him explain.

[Lennys Tap]

I think you know that's not the question I was asking, but I can understand why you didn't answer.
I do think you're deceiving yourself if you believe a guy who's made his name attacking religion is somehow free of orthodoxy, but so be it.
Anyhow, I suggest you read the Harris-Klein debate, the transcript of which is linked below. You may find it interesting. I particularly enjoyed Sam's insistence that he's somehow immune to tribalism and identity politics.

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/9/17210248/sam-harris-ezra-klein-charles-murray-transcript-podcast

Thanks, Pakuni, I listened to the podcast and found it informative and revealing - though I'm afraid we may have reached different conclusions. On substance, I felt the "debate" was no contest. Ezra is a political policy guy who seemed totally disinterested in data, especially any that might suggest to some (and not even to Sam!) that traditional liberal policies might be counter productive. Harris looks for the truth even when it's uncomfortable and contradicts his world view. I came away still a fan of Harris, not so much of Klein.

[Pakuni]

Thanks, Pakuni, I listened to the podcast and found it informative and revealing - though I'm afraid we may have reached different conclusions. On substance, I felt the "debate" was no contest. Ezra is a political policy guy who seemed totally disinterested in data, especially any that might suggest to some (and not even to Sam!) that traditional liberal policies might be counter productive. Harris looks for the truth even when it's uncomfortable and contradicts his world view. I came away still a fan of Harris, not so much of Klein.

I figured you and I would have very different conclusions from that debate, given that we went in with very different biases and perspectives.
To me, Harris comes off as someone not only eager to play the victim, and also one who not only can't see his own tribalism, but insists that he and he alone is somehow above tribalism.

As for data, I think you're missing the point. Nobody in this discussion is arguing the data, as much as Harris wants that to be the case. The data is the data.
The debate is over what the data means and what to do with that. Murray looks at the data and says "Blacks are genetically inferior when it comes to intellect" and social policy should be tailored to recognize this. Harris at the very least doesn't contradict the former, though he does disagree with Murray's social policy (mostly UBI, which is interesting given their respective political beliefs).
Klein and those on his side say look at the data and say "this is what happens when you oppress, traumatize and deny opportunities to an entire race of people for four centuries."
That's why, by their own admission, Klein and Harris spend most of this discussion talking past one another. Harris wants to make it about the data, Klein wants to make it about the interpretation.

[real chili 83]

IBTL

[TSmith34, Inc.]

IBTL

Why? Very respectful discussion between Lenny's and Pakuni.

[Lennys Tap]

I figured you and I would have very different conclusions from that debate, given that we went in with very different biases and perspectives.
To me, Harris comes off as someone not only eager to play the victim, and also one who not only can't see his own tribalism, but insists that he and he alone is somehow above tribalism.

As for data, I think you're missing the point. Nobody in this discussion is arguing the data, as much as Harris wants that to be the case. The data is the data.
The debate is over what the data means and what to do with that. Murray looks at the data and says "Blacks are genetically inferior when it comes to intellect" and social policy should be tailored to recognize this. Harris at the very least doesn't contradict the former, though he does disagree with Murray's social policy (mostly UBI, which is interesting given their respective political beliefs).
Klein and those on his side say look at the data and say "this is what happens when you oppress, traumatize and deny opportunities to an entire race of people for four centuries."
That's why, by their own admission, Klein and Harris spend most of this discussion talking past one another. Harris wants to make it about the data, Klein wants to make it about the interpretation.

Pakuni

I think you do Harris's belief's a disservice and characterize them unfairly. He's a scientist who respects data even when it conflicts with his admitted biases. That doesn't mean that he thinks "he alone is above tribalism", only that he doesn't defend what his tribe posits when the data proves (or at least indicates) that it's false.

Regarding victim hood, people like Stein who lead, encourage or at the very least wash their hands of their followers when they threaten, intimidate and try to silence scientists whose data and conclusions they don't like are major contributors to our current toxic environment, IMO.

I don't know if you had the time to listen to Harris's "Can We Pull Back From the Brink?" podcast I linked. I thought it was brave and insightful. I fear you would think otherwise but I would be nonetheless interested in your thoughts.

Happy Father's Day.

[Pakuni]

Pakuni

I think you do Harris's belief's a disservice and characterize them unfairly. He's a scientist who respects data even when it conflicts with his admitted biases. That doesn't mean that he thinks "he alone is above tribalism", only that he doesn't defend what his tribe posits when the data proves (or at least indicates) that it's false.

Regarding victim hood, people like Stein who lead, encourage or at the very least wash their hands of their followers when they threaten, intimidate and try to silence scientists whose data and conclusions they don't like are major contributors to our current toxic environment, IMO.

I don't know if you had the time to listen to Harris's "Can We Pull Back From the Brink?" podcast I linked. I thought it was brave and insightful. I fear you would think otherwise but I would be nonetheless interested in your thoughts.

Happy Father's Day.

Lenny ... I appreciate the conversation and the Father's Day wishes (and back at you). But I think I'll end it here, because, like Harris and Klein, it seems we're not on the same page as to what the conversation is about.
I will say, just to clarify though, it's not me saying Harris thinks he's above being tribalistic here. I'm not making that up. He says it himself a couple of times.
Also, I see no evidence of Klein threatening or leading any effort to silence anyone here. He listened to Harris' podcast with Murray and wrote a column critical of it. Isn't that the kind of free exchange of ideas we're supposed to embrace? Instead, it spurred a series of attacks by Harris (read his emails, if you don't believe me). If anyone is trying to silence others here. it's Harris trying to silence those who criticize him.
And I've probably said more than I intended. Best to you.

[muwarrior69]

There were no "false premises" at all in what I wrote. And again, you asked about systemic racism and a few of us have tried to give answers, but you didn't really want any answers. You aren't even willing to try to understand what is meant by it.

Sad to say, on the issue of race in America anyway, you're not worth having a discussion with. You've already made up your mind. Which, BTW, is another sign of systemic racism. Have a nice night.

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/26/745731839/new-study-says-white-police-officers-are-not-more-likely-to-shoot-minority-suspe

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/26/745731839/new-study-says-white-police-officers-are-not-more-likely-to-shoot-minority-suspe

Did you read this article? Because I'm not sure it says what you think it says. This does nothing to debunk systematic racism in policing.

[MU82]

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/26/745731839/new-study-says-white-police-officers-are-not-more-likely-to-shoot-minority-suspe

I didn't say white cops were more likely to shoot black people. I said IMHO white cops (and cops in general) are more likely to shoot, hassle, attack, frisk or use unnecessary force against black people for the sole reason being that those people are black.

And this study does not refute that one iota. Here is the final paragraph in the link you provided:

The real question here is not whether race is a factor in police shootings, but when? Is it beforehand in all the things that might lead up to a shooting, such as drug laws or racial profiling? Or does it come down to the skin color of the individual cop holding the gun?

If you get pulled over by a cop because your tail-light is out, muw69, you will NEVER be forced to get out of the car and spread eagle on the trunk. If your black friend is pulled over by a cop because his tail-light is out, he very well might be forced to get out of the car and spread eagle on the trunk.

If you are jogging through a park in a nice neighborhood, minding your own business, you will NEVER get stopped by a cop. If your black friend is jogging through the exact same park, minding his own business, he very well might be stopped and hassled by a cop.

THAT is what I am saying.

George Floyd is dead today because he was black; if he were white, he'd still be alive. I am 100% certain of that. It's systemic racism, the same thing that led to a noose being placed in Bubba Wallace's garage yesterday at Talladega.

Or you can keep denying it and join Ners in pretending that Obama getting elected "proved" that systemic racism doesn't exist.

[Lennys Tap]

A 4 minute "discussion" of a study doesn't get past the headlines, let alone provide any insight for possible solutions. Maybe that's perfect for Scoop.

[Hards Alumni]

A 4 minute "discussion" of a study doesn't get past the headlines, let alone provide any insight for possible solutions. Maybe that's perfect for Scoop.

[dgies9156]

Years ago, there was circumstance in Nashville much like the debate we're having today. It's symptomatic of the problem and the limits of what we can legislate and regulate.

Perry Wallace was a Nashville basketball phenom. In the mid-1960s, his Pearl High team was the first to play an all-white high school in Nashville and later that team was the first predominantly African-American team to win the state title. Mr. Wallace had his choice of schools and chose Vanderbilt, where he majored in Engineering and desegregated the SEC. He was graduated from Vanderbilt in 1970 and later went on to law school at Columbia and to have a distinguished career as a law professor and head of the Justice Department's environmental litigation group.

Mr. Wallace caught it in the chin throughout the southeast, including in Tennessee. So when Mr. Wallace completed his eligibility, he did a lengthy interview with The Tennessean (1970), where he outlined not only his struggle in places like Starkville, Oxford and Tuscaloosa but his struggle for acceptance at Vanderbilt. You can guess how the Nashville community reacted: "He had so much opportunity presented to him -- and now he has the unmitigated gall to criticize us????"

His criticism of Vanderbilt went to a simple premise that we must consider today: Admitted but not accepted. Admitted means African-Americans have been "allowed" into main stream American life. African-Americans now go to college, have professional jobs, served in private and government capacities and can attend church, go to restaurants, stay in hotels, shop and have governmental protection against overt discrimination.

Acceptance means we are truly one. Back in the day, it meant nobody cared what Mr. Wallace looked like if we wanted to join a fraternity (a big deal at Vanderbilt) or otherwise participate in the social and cultural life on campus. For us, it means breaking the shackles of our tribalism and seeing everyone as our brother and sister, the way Jesus taught us. To a comment, earlier who was mildly critical of me for waiting for someone not like me to move in next door, Brother, you are right. It's up to each of us to reach out where and how we can. At a very minimum, we may not agree with some of the protesters' goals and objectives but we have to stop screaming back and rather start listening. Our vision may not change in terms of how to accomplish a mutual goal, but our hearts might.

No government can do this for us. Nor can any religion (thought it might help to study Jesus' teachings and reflect). We have to do it ourselves. The sooner the better.

[shoothoops]

Years ago, there was circumstance in Nashville much like the debate we're having today. It's symptomatic of the problem and the limits of what we can legislate and regulate.

Perry Wallace was a Nashville basketball phenom. In the mid-1960s, his Pearl High team was the first to play an all-white high school in Nashville and later that team was the first predominantly African-American team to win the state title. Mr. Wallace had his choice of schools and chose Vanderbilt, where he majored in Engineering and desegregated the SEC. He was graduated from Vanderbilt in 1970 and later went on to law school at Columbia and to have a distinguished career as a law professor and head of the Justice Department's environmental litigation group.

Mr. Wallace caught it in the chin throughout the southeast, including in Tennessee. So when Mr. Wallace completed his eligibility, he did a lengthy interview with The Tennessean (1970), where he outlined not only his struggle in places like Starkville, Oxford and Tuscaloosa but his struggle for acceptance at Vanderbilt. You can guess how the Nashville community reacted: "He had so much opportunity presented to him -- and now he has the unmitigated gall to criticize us????"

His criticism of Vanderbilt went to a simple premise that we must consider today: Admitted but not accepted. Admitted means African-Americans have been "allowed" into main stream American life. African-Americans now go to college, have professional jobs, served in private and government capacities and can attend church, go to restaurants, stay in hotels, shop and have governmental protection against overt discrimination.

Acceptance means we are truly one. Back in the day, it meant nobody cared what Mr. Wallace looked like if we wanted to join a fraternity (a big deal at Vanderbilt) or otherwise participate in the social and cultural life on campus. For us, it means breaking the shackles of our tribalism and seeing everyone as our brother and sister, the way Jesus taught us. To a comment, earlier who was mildly critical of me for waiting for someone not like me to move in next door, Brother, you are right. It's up to each of us to reach out where and how we can. At a very minimum, we may not agree with some of the protesters' goals and objectives but we have to stop screaming back and rather start listening. Our vision may not change in terms of how to accomplish a mutual goal, but our hearts might.

No government can do this for us. Nor can any religion (thought it might help to study Jesus' teachings and reflect). We have to do it ourselves. The sooner the better.

There is a New York Times Best Selling Book: "Strong Inside" which is a highly recommended biography of Perry Wallace. There is also a documentary film: "Triumph"

Vanderbilt renamed a portion of 25th Avenue South where Memorial Gym resides: "Perry Wallace Way" last year.

As mentioned, Perry Wallace was the first Black basketball player in the SEC in 1967, graduating in 1970. He was an All SEC performer and drafted by the NBA. An Electrical Engineering student he went to Columbia University Law School and was a Trial Attorney at the Department of Justice before becoming a long time Law Professor before his death a few years ago.

Vanderbilt is now double digit % black student population, and 50% white. It's also increased its geographic diversity to roughly equal percentages in all parts of the country.

Ten years ago James Franklin became the first Black head coach of any major sport at Vandy. Now, they have the first Female Black Athletic Director in the SEC (Candice Storey Lee) who replaced Black AD Malcolm Turner who replaced retiring Black Athletic Director David Williams. Vandy became the only Power 5 school with a Black head coach in both football and basketball  (Derrick Mason and Jerry Stackhouse)

Progress has taken far too long, and there is a long way to go,  but it's never too late get started and keep it going.