Georgia

[shoothoops]

This is way off topic, but so is the rest of this thread ... Remember the black federal agent killed during George Floyd protests in Oakland and held up as an example of BLM violence?
Turns out he was killed by a right-wing extremists.
What's really scary is that one of these guys is active duty military.

Bennett said evidence developed in the case showed communication between Carrillo and others talking about using the George Floyd demonstration planned for Oakland that night as a cover to kill Underwood and wound his partner.
"We believe Carrillo and Justice chose this date because of the planned protest in Oakland," Bennett said. "It provided them to target multiple law enforcement personnel and to avoid apprehension due to the large crowds attending the demonstrations. As described in detail in the complaint, we believe Justice drove the white van."

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/06/16/steven-carrillo-david-underwood-murder-santa-cruz-deputy-fatal-shooting-fatal-oakland-federal-building-shooting/

https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/1272987008047239169?s=19

[Pakuni]

I'm thinking insignificant change.    I'd suggest racism is a spectrum.  A third of the country are pretty evolved, a third of the country have deep ties to their whiteness (or whatever it should be called.)

So the question is .. to what extent did the protests move the reachable third?   Some.  It moved them some.  They are more sensitive.   It bumped that group 1-10 spots to the left -- and some a few spots to the right because law and order, riots, burning, etc.


Net net, some.  Not a sea change by any stretch.

.
I think the shift has been more significant.
In 2016, 27 percent of Americans supported BLM. Today, 56 percent do.

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/502267-support-for-black-lives-matter-doubles-since-2016-poll

In 2014, 43 percent said the killing of black citizens by police was symptomatic of a broader problem.  Today, 69 percent think so.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/powerup/2020/06/09/powerup-there-s-been-a-dramatic-shift-in-public-opinion-over-police-treatment-of-black-americans/5edef042602ff129

In 2016, 29 percent said it is OK for NFL players to kneel during the anthem. Today, 52 percent support it.

https://www.wsls.com/news/local/2020/06/14/change-of-heart-most-americans-now-agree-with-kaepernicks-protest-poll/

These are all pretty massive shifts in public opinion.

[mu_hilltopper]

.
I think the shift has been more significant.
In 2016, 27 percent of Americans supported BLM. Today, 56 percent do.

In 2014, 43 percent said the killing of black citizens by police was symptomatic of a broader problem.  Today, 69 percent think so.

In 2016, 29 percent said it is OK for NFL players to kneel during the anthem. Today, 52 percent support it.

I think what I'd counter with is .. there's a difference between "supporting" BLM, kneeling, police issues .. and the explicit and casual prejudice that people have in their hearts and minds.


(Additionally .. in 2016, we found out many people lie to pollsters instead of stating their politically incorrect opinions.)

[MU82]

You didn't logically answer any of the questions I posed. Just deflect, deflect, deflect, and then resort to the intellectually weak, standard playbook, of calling someone "racist."

And yea many liberals essentially do hate America. It's a nonstop b*tchfest But hey, carry on and wallow in your angst and hypocrisy. #resist

And btw, "thousands of deaths" of blacks are not perpetrated by whites. Black on black homicide is exponentially higher than interracial. 

America elected a Black President despite Blacks comprising just 13% of the population. So, suggesting America is so racist and oppressive toward Blacks 2008 onward is illogical.  Maybe if you pound it into Blacks heads over and over and over again how racist and oppressive the "system" is, they will eventually believe it and give up. That's ultimately what your narrative pushes and ironically suppresses the progress and success of Blacks.

Racist:

I didn't say thousands of deaths. I said "thousands upon thousands of innocent black folks killed, harassed or discriminated against solely because of the color of their skin."

1. So in addition to being a racist, you're a liar. You can't make a cogent argument, so you lie about the point you're trying to dispute.

2. Do you dispute that thousands upon thousands of innocent black folks have been killed, harassed or discriminated against solely because of the color of their skin?

3. Did saying that prove I hate America?

4. Why do you hate Marquette basketball? It's a nonstop b*tchfest about the coaching with you. But hey, carry on and wallow in your angst and hypocrisy. #resistwojo

I feel sad for you. Racism is a sickness that is very difficult to cure, but I do urge you to seek help. Or, every time a cop or a vigilante or a white supremacist kills a black person, you simply can shrug and say, "Racism in America was cured the day Obama was elected. And hey, at least it wasn't black-on-black crime."

[Lennys Tap]

.
I think the shift has been more significant.
In 2016, 27 percent of Americans supported BLM. Today, 56 percent do.

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/502267-support-for-black-lives-matter-doubles-since-2016-poll

In 2014, 43 percent said the killing of black citizens by police was symptomatic of a broader problem.  Today, 69 percent think so.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/powerup/2020/06/09/powerup-there-s-been-a-dramatic-shift-in-public-opinion-over-police-treatment-of-black-americans/5edef042602ff129

In 2016, 29 percent said it is OK for NFL players to kneel during the anthem. Today, 52 percent support it.

https://www.wsls.com/news/local/2020/06/14/change-of-heart-most-americans-now-agree-with-kaepernicks-protest-poll/

These are all pretty massive shifts in public opinion.

Public opinion has indeed changed. Lots of reasons. The George Floyd case being an unambiguous videotaped murder heads the list. Also, I'd like to think there has been a lot of dialogue in the last 4 years that has help advance the movement. Fair or not, elements of BLM marching and chanting "Pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon" and "What do we want? Dead cops! When do we want 'em? Now!" and Colin Kapernick sporting the cops as pigs socks at practice hurt a great deal initially.

[Pakuni]

Public opinion has indeed changed. Lots of reasons. The George Floyd case being an unambiguous videotaped murder heads the list. Also, I'd like to think there has been a lot of dialogue in the last 4 years that has help advance the movement. Fair or not, elements of BLM marching and chanting "Pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon" and "What do we want? Dead cops! When do we want 'em? Now!" And Colin Kapernick sporting the cops as pigs socks at practice hurt a a great deal initially.

Socks. We're still talking about a pair of socks. Four years later. Socks. With cartoon piggies on them.
How small would a person have to be to rationalize turning a blind eye to injustice because of a pair of socks?
On the one hand, we have hundreds of years of state-sponsored discrimination and mistreatment based on skin color.
On the other, we have cartoon socks.
I can see how some are conflicted.

[Lennys Tap]

Socks. We're still talking about a pair of socks. Four years later. Socks. With cartoon piggies on them.
How small would a person have to be to rationalize turning a blind eye to injustice because of a pair of socks?
On the one hand, we have hundreds of years of state-sponsored discrimination and mistreatment based on skin color.
On the other, we have cartoon socks.
I can see how some are conflicted.

Pakuni

We're not "still talking about socks", we're contrasting attitudes from today and 4 years ago towards BLM and the leader of the NFL protests. Like it or not, calling for the death of cops and Kapernick wearing "pig socks" had something to do with people's opinions 4 years ago. Today, not so much.

[tower912]

I think you are both right.  4 years ago, not as many people were ready to hear what CK was really saying.   So it became about the socks (in bad taste, but ultimately trivial), about how he was actually disrespecting the flag and veterans. (Poppycock, if you actually took the time to listen to him)

After three high profile events when most of the society is in some version of lockdown and have time to actually see the videos and contemplate them, more are open to hearing the message.

I only hope the sea change and heart change take root and become permanent.  I would be disappointed if this is just another fad.

[Lennys Tap]

I think you are both right.  4 years ago, not as many people were ready to hear what CK was really saying.   So it became about the socks (in bad taste, but ultimately trivial), about how he was actually disrespecting the flag and veterans. (Poppycock, if you actually took the time to listen to him)

After three high profile events when most of the society is in some version of lockdown and have time to actually see the videos and contemplate them, more are open to hearing the message.

I only hope the sea change and heart change take root and become permanent.  I would be disappointed if this is just another fad.

Tower

I share your hope.

[MU82]

I think you are both right.  4 years ago, not as many people were ready to hear what CK was really saying.   So it became about the socks (in bad taste, but ultimately trivial), about how he was actually disrespecting the flag and veterans. (Poppycock, if you actually took the time to listen to him)

After three high profile events when most of the society is in some version of lockdown and have time to actually see the videos and contemplate them, more are open to hearing the message.

I only hope the sea change and heart change take root and become permanent.  I would be disappointed if this is just another fad.

I agree totally with this, tower.

In 2016, Kaepernick was immature and was a very imperfect face of the movement. The socks did matter, serving to delegitimize him and his cause. And there certainly were not enough "regular Americans" ready to join him because it wasn't seen as "bad enough" yet - or even bad at all.

He has grown, and the movement has grown exponentially. It has made my heart swell with American pride to see so many suburban white people join our black brothers and sisters - and even organize rallies - in support of eliminating policy brutality and racial inequality.

The situation seems totally different now. Kaepernick does not have to be a lone voice screaming at people who put their fingers in their ears and chant "la la la la I can't hear you, you kneeling commie."

Even the "law and order" president - who has openly encouraged police brutality and who threatens to use military force against peaceful protesters - just signed an executive order aimed at reducing police brutality. That it actually "does" little or nothing is besides the point; it's an effort from somebody who not only had refused to do anything about the cancer of police violence against black people but who had helped metastasize the cancer. It's a teeny, tiny step of progress.

Miles to go. Black Lives Matter. We Are Marquette!

[Pakuni]

Pakuni

We're not "still talking about socks", we're contrasting attitudes from today and 4 years ago towards BLM and the leader of the NFL protests. Like it or not, calling for the death of cops and Kapernick wearing "pig socks" had something to do with people's opinions 4 years ago. Today, not so much.

Well, we are still talking about socks. Literally.

But the point is the same now and in 2016. Nobody truly opposed to racial inequality or police brutality is going to set aside those principles over a pair of cartoon socks. Either you believe the cause is just or you don't. Anyone who thought "Colin Kaepernick speaks the truth, but those socks ..." is just rationalizing.
If your point is that Kaepernick is an imperfect messenger, fine. You're completely correct on that. All messengers are imperfect. If you only support just causes when they're raised by the perfect, you support nothing.

[Lennys Tap]

Well, we are still talking about socks. Literally.

But the point is the same now and in 2016. Nobody truly opposed to racial inequality or police brutality is going to set aside those principles over a pair of cartoon socks. Either you believe the cause is just or you don't. Anyone who thought "Colin Kaepernick speaks the truth, but those socks ..." is just rationalizing.
If your point is that Kaepernick is an imperfect messenger, fine. You're completely correct on that. All messengers are imperfect. If you only support just causes when they're raised by the perfect, you support nothing.

You continue to misconstrue my point. The topic I thought we were discussing was why BLM is viewed more favorably in 2020 than it was in 2016. I gave several reasons why I think BLM stumbled with public opinion early. Among them were calling for the death of police officers in some of their marches and a leader who chose cops as pigs socks as a vehicle to promote his message. You're perfectly free to conclude that people interested in the problem shouldn't be sidetracked by imperfect messaging or messengers. I would generally agree.  But the fact is messaging and messengers matter to a lot of people.

[jesmu84]

Anyone catch Dave Chappelles newest?

[Pakuni]

You continue to misconstrue my point. The topic I thought we were discussing was why BLM is viewed more favorably in 2020 than it was in 2016. I gave several reasons why I think BLM stumbled with public opinion early. Among them were calling for the death of police officers in some of their marches and a leader who chose cops as pigs socks as a vehicle to promote his message. You're perfectly free to conclude that people interested in the problem shouldn't be sidetracked by imperfect messaging or messengers. I would generally agree.  But the fact is messaging and messengers matter to a lot of people.

I don't think I'm misconstruing your point. I understand what you're saying. I just don't find it likely.
I have hard time believing that someone would be sincere in their desire to end racial injustice and police brutality, but dismiss all that over a pair of socks. A person who does that is either lying about how troubled they really are by those injustices or has a truly messed up set or priorities. For most, I suspect it's the former. The socks were used in 2016 by those wishing not to deal with the injustice in the same way the riots have been used in 2020 by those who don't want to deal with the injustice.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't believe willing allies to the cause became something other than allies because of a pair of socks. They were never willing allies in the first place. The socks are merely their justification.
You disagree, and that's OK.

[dgies9156]

Let me try to take this from a non-"progressive" standpoint for a moment and see if we can find some common ground.

1) As Americans, both Republicans and Democrats abhor the beating of George Floyd, the death of Laquan McDonald and others who have died because of unwarranted police brutality. No matter how conservative one might be, we all were sickened by what we saw in Minneapolis.

2) We applaud the fact that the police officer who assaulted Mr. Floyd was taken into custody, charged and will be given a fair trial at the hands of Minnesota justice. If convicted, we expect and even demand an appropriate punishment.

3) We are pleased that the police officers who, despite their training, stood by and did not stop assault on Mr. Floyd, are no longer police officers.

4) We stand with those who want our police officers to be accountable to our communities and who want our police officers to protect us, not assault and kill us. We favor use of deadly force, both physical and through use of a firearm, as a last resort.

5) Those of us who are not politically "progressive" also believe in equal treatment under law, regardless of race, religion, national origin, sexual orientation or other individually defining value. We know we have made a lot of progress in the last 56 years but we also know we have a long way to go.

6) We want to be part of the solution. For many of us, that means investing in education, ensuring every qualified student has an opportunity for college or technical training and that our workplaces are open to people of talent who have the capability, drive and ingenuity to make more money for our owners and investors.

7) We want people to vote. But we expect integrity within the electoral system.

The disagreement is not in the concepts. It's in the details!

[Hards Alumni]

Let me try to take this from a non-"progressive" standpoint for a moment and see if we can find some common ground.

1) As Americans, both Republicans and Democrats abhor the beating of George Floyd, the death of Laquan McDonald and others who have died because of unwarranted police brutality. No matter how conservative one might be, we all were sickened by what we saw in Minneapolis.

2) We applaud the fact that the police officer who assaulted Mr. Floyd was taken into custody, charged and will be given a fair trial at the hands of Minnesota justice. If convicted, we expect and even demand an appropriate punishment.

3) We are pleased that the police officers who, despite their training, stood by and did not stop assault on Mr. Floyd, are no longer police officers.

4) We stand with those who want our police officers to be accountable to our communities and who want our police officers to protect us, not assault and kill us. We favor use of deadly force, both physical and through use of a firearm, as a last resort.

5) Those of us who are not politically "progressive" also believe in equal treatment under law, regardless of race, religion, national origin, sexual orientation or other individually defining value. We know we have made a lot of progress in the last 56 years but we also know we have a long way to go.

6) We want to be part of the solution. For many of us, that means investing in education, ensuring every qualified student has an opportunity for college or technical training and that our workplaces are open to people of talent who have the capability, drive and ingenuity to make more money for our owners and investors.

7) We want people to vote. But we expect integrity within the electoral system.

The disagreement is not in the concepts. It's in the details!

But where is the systemic change that needs to occur?

We can't play the status quo game that has gotten us where we are today.  Platitudes like, "we have made a lot of progress in the last 56 years but we also know we have a long way to go".  Substantive change matters, and the time for lip service is at an end.

[shoothoops]

But where is the systemic change that needs to occur?

We can't play the status quo game that has gotten us where we are today.  Platitudes like, "we have made a lot of progress in the last 56 years but we also know we have a long way to go".  Substantive change matters, and the time for lip service is at an end.

Yep, this right here is the disconnect. Thus could be lack of interest, lack of empathy, or lack of experience (experience is a cure for ignorance) with the topic.....police brutality and racial profiling are mere symptoms of something much bigger that has gone on a very long time.

[MU82]

dg: I appreciate your tone and I got a lot out of what you said.

My main nit is with No. 6: Those of us who are not politically "progressive" also believe in equal treatment under law, regardless of race, religion, national origin, sexual orientation or other individually defining value. We know we have made a lot of progress in the last 56 years but we also know we have a long way to go.

I do not believe that most conservatives agree about the sexual orientation part of that. The current administration and all of his enablers in Congress have tried everything possible to make life unequal for LGBT folks. Trump pushed a cruel, anti-transgender executive order just a few days ago, and not a single Republican in either house objected to it. I believe a great cry of anger went out in "not politically progressive" America when yesterday's SCOTUS decision was revealed.

Trump also tried to ban all Muslims from entering the country, and his tens of millions of supporters applauded him for it, so I also am not sure about the religion part of your statement.

Not long ago, I put an article on the site about an obviously racist NC state rep. The thing that struck me was that he was elected and then re-elected 3 times. So there are a whole lot of non-progressives who definitely don't believe in equal treatment regardless of race.

I do agree we're working toward getting things right as a nation. It has taken too long, and the steps now are baby steps. But I'm still encouraged by what I see - even though it's a shame that it took evil cops and then protests, often violent ones, to get us even this far.

You know, when the protests turned violent, the knee-jerk reaction was easy: "We agree that these black deaths at the hands of cops have to stop, but protest peacefully please! Don't riot!" It's the easy thing to say, very easy to agree with. I mean, who wants to support violence?

But maybe we don't get where we are today without that violence. Maybe Trump doesn't do his executive order yesterday, maybe the Senate doesn't have its discussion today, maybe the NC statehouse doesn't pass a criminal reform bill today, without the violence.

I don't know that's the case, but I wouldn't doubt it. These are interesting times, and it will be fascinating to see what history says about it years from now.

Again, thanks for those very nice sentiments you expressed. You made Scoop better!

[dgies9156]

But where is the systemic change that needs to occur?

We can't play the status quo game that has gotten us where we are today.  Platitudes like, "we have made a lot of progress in the last 56 years but we also know we have a long way to go".  Substantive change matters, and the time for lip service is at an end.

OK, we aren't perfect, as anyone with a brain would admit. But where we are today versus where we were 55 years ago is nothing short of amazing. We've gone from not allowing African Americans to eat, ride, sleep, marry or otherwise co-mingle with Caucasians to an African-American President, a majority of our major cities in the United States are either majority governed or predominantly governed by African Americans and we've outdone every other major country in the world with race problems in desegregating.

It's not fast enough, but the question now is, what do you think can be accomplished as a consequence of these incidents? The police issues need to be dealt with, as they did in the 1960s. But think of what we have done:

Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Amendments
Voting Rights Act of 1964 and Amendments
Public Accommodations Act of 1965
Fair Housing Act of 1968
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission
Community Reinvestment Act of 1974

We've also created special housing programs to allow home ownership to low and moderate income individuals in addition to massive housing construction and subsidies. We have spent trillions on nutrition, education, social services and health to ensure that people have a path out of poverty. Most reasonable employers have diversity and inclusion programs that cover every conceivable protected class of person. We've outlawed hate speech (probably in violation of the First Amendment but for a good cause) and created a special category of hate crimes.

The problem is less in our laws and regulation and more in our hearts and minds. Protesting is good because it brings discrimination to the forefront, but the question is what we need to do as a nation that's concrete and not abstract!

[Pakuni]

Let me try to take this from a non-"progressive" standpoint for a moment and see if we can find some common ground.

dgies ... I have zero doubt you believe in all of the things you listed. And I believe many/a majority of conservatives/Republicans do as well.
But I have fair less faith than you that these beliefs are universal. We see evidence to the contrary every single day. One need only look to the reaction to the Bostick ruling yesterday to see that there remain plenty of people in this country who don't believe in "equal treatment under law" for all.

[Hards Alumni]

OK, we aren't perfect, as anyone with a brain would admit. But where we are today versus where we were 55 years ago is nothing short of amazing. We've gone from not allowing African Americans to eat, ride, sleep, marry or otherwise co-mingle with Caucasians to an African-American President, a majority of our major cities in the United States are either majority governed or predominantly governed by African Americans and we've outdone every other major country in the world with race problems in desegregating.

It's not fast enough, but the question now is, what do you think can be accomplished as a consequence of these incidents? The police issues need to be dealt with, as they did in the 1960s. But think of what we have done:

Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Amendments
Voting Rights Act of 1964 and Amendments
Public Accommodations Act of 1965
Fair Housing Act of 1968
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission
Community Reinvestment Act of 1974

We've also created special housing programs to allow home ownership to low and moderate income individuals in addition to massive housing construction and subsidies. We have spent trillions on nutrition, education, social services and health to ensure that people have a path out of poverty. Most reasonable employers have diversity and inclusion programs that cover every conceivable protected class of person. We've outlawed hate speech (probably in violation of the First Amendment but for a good cause) and created a special category of hate crimes.

The problem is less in our laws and regulation and more in our hearts and minds. Protesting is good because it brings discrimination to the forefront, but the question is what we need to do as a nation that's concrete and not abstract!

So nothing of true substance has changed 46 years.  We did some stuff for a while, and then called it a generation.  There's the problem, that's longer than I've existed on this planet.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

You didn't logically answer any of the questions I posed. Just deflect, deflect, deflect, and then resort to the intellectually weak, standard playbook, of calling someone "racist."

And yea many liberals essentially do hate America. It's a nonstop b*tchfest But hey, carry on and wallow in your angst and hypocrisy. #resist

And btw, "thousands of deaths" of blacks are not perpetrated by whites. Black on black homicide is exponentially higher than interracial. 

America elected a Black President despite Blacks comprising just 13% of the population. So, suggesting America is so racist and oppressive toward Blacks 2008 onward is illogical.  Maybe if you pound it into Blacks heads over and over and over again how racist and oppressive the "system" is, they will eventually believe it and give up. That's ultimately what your narrative pushes and ironically suppresses the progress and success of Blacks.

Rudy Giuliani , that you?

[dgies9156]

So nothing of true substance has changed 46 years.  We did some stuff for a while, and then called it a generation.  There's the problem, that's longer than I've existed on this planet.

Brother Hards, those are the initiatives. Many of those pieces of legislation have been reauthorized, extended, revised and otherwise adapted to meet contemporary concerns. Also, look at the transfer payments, social service commitments and many other initiatives that are sponsored by both parties in Congress.

The Voting Rights Act, for example, has been reauthorized three times, for 25 years each.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Brother Hards, those are the initiatives. Many of those pieces of legislation have been reauthorized, extended, revised and otherwise adapted to meet contemporary concerns. Also, look at the transfer payments, social service commitments and many other initiatives that are sponsored by both parties in Congress.

The Voting Rights Act, for example, has been reauthorized three times, for 25 years each.

Surely you are aware of the Supreme Court ruling that neutered this law arising from a challenge from Alabama?  Hmmm, I wonder what their intentions were? 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/07/how-shelby-county-broke-america/564707/

[Hards Alumni]

Brother Hards, those are the initiatives. Many of those pieces of legislation have been reauthorized, extended, revised and otherwise adapted to meet contemporary concerns. Also, look at the transfer payments, social service commitments and many other initiatives that are sponsored by both parties in Congress.

The Voting Rights Act, for example, has been reauthorized three times, for 25 years each.

My point is, we shouldn't be patting ourselves on the back.  Maybe this time we try something new and worthwhile.

How many more generations of systemic racism do we need to stare down before we enact tangible change? 

Our judicial, law enforcement, and penal system is totally broken.  Let's start there.