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Author Topic: Anonymous Eagle Article  (Read 20233 times)

Uncle Rico

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2020, 08:19:24 AM »
Alright, it's obvious trying to be civil with you is getting me nowhere..so i'm done. You continue to be obtuse, a total smart ass, and seemingly afraid to divulge your reasons for thinking the way you do. It's obviously one of those things where as you'd say "you just are" without having any real basis for feeling that way. That's fine, that's your choice I guess. Can't say I didn't try.  ?-(

I’ve laid out my reasons plenty of times and no one protects college basketball coaches like college basketball writers is a fact.

“This is bar none atrocious.  Mitchell cannot shoot either.  What a pile of dung”

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2020, 08:23:51 AM »
Okay Rico, I'm going to TRY to take a civilized approach here with you, and try to get you to divulge the REAL reasons behind why you're so determined to pick this hill to die on?? What confounds me about your strong views on this is I'm guessing you have never talked to or asked a D1 football player or basketball player their views on this topic. Admittedly, I haven't either. But I read enough things, to know, it sure seems ot me like you have this view on it that even the student athletes themselves don't have. The question is...why?? Is it that you don't like rich people(Coaches, administrators etc)?? Is it because the NCAA some how wronged you personally at some point?? Do you not like that they punish schools enough for things?? What is it, what is your underlying reason here?? It baffles me that someone would take such a strong stance on this that even the athletes themselves don't have.

This is semi related, but I don't know if you read the post the other day from the athletic talking about the one time transfer rule..Dana O' Neill got quotes from several players about it and the basis for the article was really Sam Hauser. Every one of the players she talked to, thought that sitting out was actually a good thing, and Sam himself even said that even had he been able to play right away, he would have sat out anyway.

I'm sure you understand that no one makes these kids go to college..they have other options, yet they still choose to do it, and doesn't it make sense that if they really thought it was so bad, they simply wouldn't do it??

I'm really interested to hear why you feel as strongly as you do(and you aren't the only one that does)..because it just seems odd, that you seemingly care so much and feel so strongly about something that the people effected by it directly don't even care that much about it...they just do what they do.


My reason:  Amateurism is stupid.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2020, 08:30:03 AM »
I'm always amused by the fact that everyone seems to think Wojo has problems in so many areas. He's a bad game coach. He can't develop players. He can't retain players. He can't recruit well enough. Yet despite all these apparent flaws, he's still getting teams to the NCAA tournament and has had us in the upper half of high major programs each of the past four years.

Honestly, I don't think he's a bad game coach, or a bad recruiter, or a bad developer. I think he's good at all of those things. But I don't think he's great at any of them yet. I think that's where I have the most concern, is his ceiling just being a good all around coach? MU is betting that this is not his ceiling and he will continue to improve.
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muguru

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2020, 08:34:43 AM »

My reason:  Amateurism is stupid.

See...this is exactly what i thought..those of that are so strongly against it, don't really have well reasoned answers as to why you feel the way you do. You just do. "amateurism is stupid" shows you don't have a reason to feel that way. And because you feel that way, that's just the way it's supposed to be.

I could say: wearing a mask is "stupid". That doesn't however mean that there aren't valid reasons for masks being worn. You can think something is stupid all you want, but that doesn't mean there aren't reasons it needs to be the way that it is, or why it is the way that it is.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

Uncle Rico

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2020, 08:39:58 AM »
See...this is exactly what i thought..those of that are so strongly against it, don't really have well reasoned answers as to why you feel the way you do. You just do. "amateurism is stupid" shows you don't have a reason to feel that way. And because you feel that way, that's just the way it's supposed to be.

I could say: wearing a mask is "stupid". That doesn't however mean that there aren't valid reasons for masks being worn. You can think something is stupid all you want, but that doesn't mean there aren't reasons it needs to be the way that it is, or why it is the way that it is.

There’s nothing amateur about major college athletics.  Hence, amateurism is a stupid crutch to keep from players being paid
“This is bar none atrocious.  Mitchell cannot shoot either.  What a pile of dung”

panda

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2020, 08:41:44 AM »

I just don't buy the player development issue.  Players have certainly developed under Wojo.  Not everyone has developed at the same rate or to the same level, but Markus Howard became an All American.  Sacar Anim became a solid starter.

Howard is an all American and Hauser was an all conference performer. Aside from those two, we haven’t had a high school recruit all conference player during Wojo’s tenure. (Except Ellenson).

Sacar is an awesome role player but he’s not a difference maker. Theo is a great defensive player, but again, not a difference maker etc.

As I’m typing this, maybe I can be convinced otherwise....Is it an overall talent issue coming into the program from high school or a lack of development beyond normal expected growth?

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2020, 08:47:24 AM »
See...this is exactly what i thought..those of that are so strongly against it, don't really have well reasoned answers as to why you feel the way you do. You just do. "amateurism is stupid" shows you don't have a reason to feel that way. And because you feel that way, that's just the way it's supposed to be.

I could say: wearing a mask is "stupid". That doesn't however mean that there aren't valid reasons for masks being worn. You can think something is stupid all you want, but that doesn't mean there aren't reasons it needs to be the way that it is, or why it is the way that it is.


Fine.

In every level of society, we say it is "unamerican" to limit someone's compensation.  You or I can go out and make whatever money someone is willing to pay us.  In college ahtletics, that means coaches, athletic directors, administrators, Presidents, etc. can make whatever they can. 

Except the players.  Their compensation is limited to the value of the scholarship.  And the reason given is due to "fairness."  But fairness doesn't prevents conferences from raiding other conferences for their top members.  It doesn't prevent those conferences from signing television deals that dwarf other conferences.  It doesn't prevent them from setting up a "tournament share" arrangement that pays teams from those conferences more.  And then they get to use that money to pay the best coaches, create the best facilities, etc.

How fair is that?

In professional sports at least, compensation caps are government by a collective bargaining agreement negotiated by a union.  College players don't even have that.  They have to take a set level of compensation without any negotiation on their part.  And that's it. 

It is fundamentally unfair.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

muguru

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2020, 08:51:24 AM »
Howard is an all American and Hauser was an all conference performer. Aside from those two, we haven’t had a high school recruit all conference player during Wojo’s tenure. (Except Ellenson).

Sacar is an awesome role player but he’s not a difference maker. Theo is a great defensive player, but again, not a difference maker etc.

As I’m typing this, maybe I can be convinced otherwise....Is it an overall talent issue coming into the program from high school or a lack of development beyond normal expected growth?

It's a talent issue...the guys that he has brought in, in a lot of instances are what they are..the best you can ever hope for is for them to be a solid role player. Yes, every program needs those guys, but too often in the last six years MU has had role players being important parts of the rotation. That's a talent problem, because it should never come to that. Guys who should be no better than 8-9 guys in a high major rotation, have been thrust into key roles or even been starters for MU. That's not going to get it done.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

WarriorPride68

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2020, 08:52:10 AM »
Just in the last 3 years, Madison had these transfers: Jordan Hill. Kobe King, Andy Can Vliet, Alex Illikaninen and Tai Strickland.

I think the point goes back to the Oregon discussion earlier about winning despite turnover. Wisconsin has 2 Final Fours & 2 Sweet 16 since 2014 and just won the Big Ten this past season despite Kobe King abruptly leaving mid-season. The point gets amplified in the article because Wojo doesn't have a tourney win 7 years in and is under .500 in the new Big East, people are searching for answers. If he was losing players and winning nobody cares. 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 08:55:39 AM by WarriorPride68 »

#UnleashSean

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2020, 08:54:26 AM »
Theo is a great defensive player


Is he though? Sure he gets a bunch of blocks and looks intimidating. But he goes for blocks alot. Most times he falls out of position and either contests the shot and force a miss, but then is out of position for a rebound and they get +2 on a put back, or he fouls.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2020, 08:58:14 AM »
If you look at that list it's a little disconcerting. But I was reading it to my GF and each of them had a logical reason outside of the Hausers. If it was systemic it would seem to be that there wouldn't be a reason behind most of these.

Harry and Wally didn't belong at this level

Henry hadevery right to go he was never staying all Four years and wasn't going to develop more or get a degree by staying 2.

Burton tough draw but makes sense. I nearly transferred for a heck of a lot less than mom dying.

Haani they claimed it was something pulling him back home. Unfortunately the timing IMO killed us at Georgia and ruined another bid.

Duane and Traci both were recruited over.

Sandy and Steve would've been solid roll player but were vastly over matched in the BE.

Bailey is making a weird decision but has stated Stan is what got him here and who can fault him for not wanting to be in his mid 20s. I felt old being a 5th yr senior can't imagine being 24 at college.

That leaves Joey and Sam which has been beaten to death.
Maigh Eo for Sam

Not A Serious Person

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2020, 09:06:28 AM »
Concerns about Wojo:     Scheme.   In game adjustments.     

Not concerns about Wojo:   Player development, transfers.

Agree with Tower ....

This is one of the biggest non-story threads in a long time.

800 transfers a year in D1 MBB.  And if you look at other sports, even non-revenue sports, some of the transfer rates are even higher.  College tennis has nearly 40% of rosters turnover.

Welcome to 2020 where almost no athlete, in any sport, at any D1 school, stays for four years.  They are not students, they are essentially professional athletes moving around to find their best situation.


But the real question ... is the talent level of the roster decreasing?  I see one of the best-recruiting classes coming in, in addition to Carton transferring in.  So, I see no drop in talent.  Therefore, this is a non-problem.
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muguru

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2020, 09:09:53 AM »

Fine.

In every level of society, we say it is "unamerican" to limit someone's compensation.  You or I can go out and make whatever money someone is willing to pay us.  In college ahtletics, that means coaches, athletic directors, administrators, Presidents, etc. can make whatever they can. 

Except the players.  Their compensation is limited to the value of the scholarship.  And the reason given is due to "fairness."  But fairness doesn't prevents conferences from raiding other conferences for their top members.  It doesn't prevent those conferences from signing television deals that dwarf other conferences.  It doesn't prevent them from setting up a "tournament share" arrangement that pays teams from those conferences more.  And then they get to use that money to pay the best coaches, create the best facilities, etc.

How fair is that?

In professional sports at least, compensation caps are government by a collective bargaining agreement negotiated by a union.  College players don't even have that.  They have to take a set level of compensation without any negotiation on their part.  And that's it. 

It is fundamentally unfair.

Thank you, at least you gave a well thought out reasoning for why you feel that way. Now I'm not saying any of this to be condescending at all, but Sultan, it's not like the value of a scholarship is chump change, that is worth something, quite a bit of something, wouldn't you agree?? It's the schools that pay for those for the athletes, while a vast majority of the general student population don't have that luxury. That's one thing.

Second...technically their compensation isn't limited...again, no one is making them go to college to be a student athlete. They have many choices they could make to be "fairly" compensated. they could give up basketball(or whatever sport) altogether after HS and go get a regular job like a vast majority of people have to do, and they would then be employees and will be compensated. Or, they can even go to college if they so choose, and they can just not play a sport, be a regular college student, get a job etc, they will be compensated. They can also try their hand at going pro somewhere out of HS, overseas or whatever. They have options, and no one is making them do anything they aren't choosing to do of their own free will.

They don't have a union because they aren't employees. Again, none of this is to be condescending, but it's all true. Honestly, how different would things look(and I will likely get vilified for this, but oh well), if there were no Title IX requirements because of "fairness"?? You take that requirement away and I think the landscape would be completely different.

The cold hard reality is, life just isn't fair..no matter how much we all may want it to be, it never has been and it never will be.


“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

Its DJOver

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2020, 09:14:36 AM »
Is he though? Sure he gets a bunch of blocks and looks intimidating. But he goes for blocks alot. Most times he falls out of position and either contests the shot and force a miss, but then is out of position for a rebound and they get +2 on a put back, or he fouls.

Theo is an excellent defender.  If you're influential enough that other coaches are telling their players not to to even drive at him, you're a good defender.  Theo's foul troubles are also exaggerated based on reputation from his Freshman and Sophomore years.  Last year he had a lower fouls per 40 than Jayce, and his fouls per 40 have dropped from 8.5 to 7.4 to 5.2.  He still has flaws (most notably on the offensive end), and while I'm not 100% up to speed on other teams rosters, I would say he is one of ,if not the, best defensive returning bigs in the conference. 

dad's couch

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2020, 09:19:19 AM »
It's a talent issue...the guys that he has brought in, in a lot of instances are what they are..the best you can ever hope for is for them to be a solid role player. Yes, every program needs those guys, but too often in the last six years MU has had role players being important parts of the rotation. That's a n thrust into key roles or even been starters for MU. That's not going to get it done.

You get what you get. Its easy to say get better recruits. In reality it isn't that easy. Shoe companies are funneling the best players to their marquis programs. Some kids may not want to spend their winters in Wisconsin when they can play in FL, GA, TX etc. You say recruit internationally. When in fact only about 8 - 10 players are better than what we have. Look at any list and most those players played HS ball in the US. So you spend a ton of money chasing a few guys who you don't know who they are tied in.

You have 10 -12 programs that are consistent top 15 programs then there are 30 - 40 programs who think like you do about MU that they should be consistent top 20 programs. Do the math.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2020, 09:33:34 AM »
Thank you, at least you gave a well thought out reasoning for why you feel that way. Now I'm not saying any of this to be condescending at all, but Sultan, it's not like the value of a scholarship is chump change, that is worth something, quite a bit of something, wouldn't you agree?? It's the schools that pay for those for the athletes, while a vast majority of the general student population don't have that luxury. That's one thing.


But that's the case everywhere.  Economics suggests that society values basketball players more valuable than "essential workers."  So whatever the value of the scholarship is, it doesn't matter if you or I think "well that's a lot of money.  They shouldn't make more."  I mean...why not?


Second...technically their compensation isn't limited...again, no one is making them go to college to be a student athlete. They have many choices they could make to be "fairly" compensated. they could give up basketball(or whatever sport) altogether after HS and go get a regular job like a vast majority of people have to do, and they would then be employees and will be compensated. Or, they can even go to college if they so choose, and they can just not play a sport, be a regular college student, get a job etc, they will be compensated. They can also try their hand at going pro somewhere out of HS, overseas or whatever. They have options, and no one is making them do anything they aren't choosing to do of their own free will.

That is a good point.  And frankly it's the best counter to what I said.  But those aren't great options for most 18 year olds.



They don't have a union because they aren't employees. Again, none of this is to be condescending, but it's all true. Honestly, how different would things look(and I will likely get vilified for this, but oh well), if there were no Title IX requirements because of "fairness"?? You take that requirement away and I think the landscape would be completely different.

I'm not suggesting they should be in a union.  And Title IX isn't an issue if compensation is paid by outside entities.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

monkeyman34

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2020, 09:37:56 AM »
Concerns about Wojo:     Scheme.   In game adjustments.     

Not concerns about Wojo:   Player development, transfers.

I disagree with this completely, player development is a huge issue. Markus didn't develop with Wojo, he developed because his brothers pushed him and trained him.

wadesworld

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #67 on: May 28, 2020, 09:39:01 AM »
I disagree with this completely, player development is a huge issue. Markus didn't develop with Wojo, he developed because his brothers pushed him and trained him.

Lol. Every college player is training on their own or with someone else in off seasons. So I guess no coach in college basketball develops players.
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #68 on: May 28, 2020, 09:43:42 AM »
I disagree with this completely, player development is a huge issue. Markus didn't develop with Wojo, he developed because his brothers pushed him and trained him.

Yeah, that's not really the case.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

JamilJaeJamailJrJuan

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #69 on: May 28, 2020, 09:59:27 AM »
I would guess that Marquette's "retention problem" is similar to other programs in the same realm, and less of an issue than the elite programs. 

Its the way CBB is today. 
I would take the Rick SLU program right now.

MU82

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #70 on: May 28, 2020, 10:21:13 AM »
Lol. Every college player is training on their own or with someone else in off seasons. So I guess no coach in college basketball develops players.

Aw c'mon wades ... you gotta get hip to the rules:

Any Marquette player who develops over time into a better player, it is because he worked on his own, he worked with his family, he worked with fellow players or he worked with assistant coaches. Or he just had raw talent and it developed naturally. Wojo gets 0% of the credit.

Any Marquette player who doesn't develop over time into a better player, it is because Wojo is a de-motivating failure. Wojo gets 100% of the blame.

Got it now?
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Markusquette

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #71 on: May 28, 2020, 10:32:29 AM »
Why is Henry even on that list? He was a known one-and-done while in high school. That's hardly unexpected roster turnover which is the point they're trying to make. Blowing up the situation way more than it should be. One could consistently write this same thing for over half the teams in Cbb.

WarriorFan

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #72 on: May 28, 2020, 10:45:38 AM »
Don't worry, when the G League is taking the top 25-30 H.S players, Wojo's recruits won't look so bad. 
We just need to wait another few years.

How does that teal thing work???
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JamilJaeJamailJrJuan

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #73 on: May 28, 2020, 10:46:20 AM »
Assuming its the same guy who runs the AE twitter page, he's been a debby downer for awhile now.  So clearly he's just soured on things.  Which is somewhat understandable, frankly. 
I would take the Rick SLU program right now.

GoldenWarrior11

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Re: Anonymous Eagle Article
« Reply #74 on: May 28, 2020, 10:46:41 AM »
There can be many debates on the subject, but I think all MU fans definitely want the program to be striving for more (given the results of the past 5-6 years).  To me, I think it is as simple as just looking at the Big East in terms of players that played in the NBA this past year. 

Butler: 1 (Martin)
Creighton: 2 (McDermott, Thomas)
DePaul: 1 (Strus)
Marquette: 1 (Anderson) *You can include Burton as original MU recruit, but he wasn't a Wojo recruit, nor did he graduate MU
Providence: 1 (Dunn)
St. John's: 1 (Sampson)
Villanova: 7 (Archidiacono, Bridges, Brunson, DiVincenzo, Hart, Paschall, Spellman)
Xavier: 1 (Sumner)
Georgetown/Seton Hall: 0

Whenever the NBA draft is, it is safe to assume Bey is a 1st rounder, and that guys like Reed, Alexander, Marshall, Markus, Powell and Yurtseven will get drafted/look-ins too. 

In the BE, it's Villanova, followed by everyone else by a wide margin.  Given the lack of consistent NBA talent, you have to view guys like Cooley, Willard and Mack (before he left) were all over-performing given their talent pools.  You could also strongly argue that DePaul has been underperforming given the number of guys that have played in the NBA (Reed, Garrett, Henry, Strus), and their consistent last-place finishes.

 

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