MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: willie warrior on May 27, 2020, 07:37:00 PM
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https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2020/5/26/21268886/marquette-golden-eagles-mens-basketball-head-coach-steve-wojciechowski-roster-turnover (https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2020/5/26/21268886/marquette-golden-eagles-mens-basketball-head-coach-steve-wojciechowski-roster-turnover)
Haven't seen this anywhere on Scoop. Must be that it is not acceptable to imply criticism of the wondrous one.
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It’s a real problem. Particularly if you subscribe to the theory of stability + getting old = being good.
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The player retention issue discussed is an issue but the real problem during the Wojo tenure has been developing and cultivating high school. Not enough development to establish any sort of program building blocks.
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https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2020/5/26/21268886/marquette-golden-eagles-mens-basketball-head-coach-steve-wojciechowski-roster-turnover (https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2020/5/26/21268886/marquette-golden-eagles-mens-basketball-head-coach-steve-wojciechowski-roster-turnover)
Haven't seen this anywhere on Scoop. Must be that it is not acceptable to imply criticism of the wondrous one.
Lol. Just post the link. You don’t have to poison the well at go.
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Yawn.
Have to go back to the Crean years to find the last time nobody transferred out.
Bailey didn't transfer, he went pro.
The door swings both ways.
Over 800 transfers this year. Statistically speaking, MU is trailing in out transfers by at least two this offseason.
Blah, blah, blah, Wojo slurper. Blah blah blah, driving everyone away. Blah blah blah I knew he sucked before anyone else did. Blah blah blah I don't trust MU's administration, but I know MU can do better.
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https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2020/5/26/21268886/marquette-golden-eagles-mens-basketball-head-coach-steve-wojciechowski-roster-turnover (https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2020/5/26/21268886/marquette-golden-eagles-mens-basketball-head-coach-steve-wojciechowski-roster-turnover)
Haven't seen this anywhere on Scoop. Must be that it is not acceptable to imply criticism of the wondrous one.
How does this compare nationally? Were there underlying issues leading to those transfers? Only half the story here.
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https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2020/5/26/21268886/marquette-golden-eagles-mens-basketball-head-coach-steve-wojciechowski-roster-turnover (https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2020/5/26/21268886/marquette-golden-eagles-mens-basketball-head-coach-steve-wojciechowski-roster-turnover)
Haven't seen this anywhere on Scoop. Must be that it is not acceptable to imply criticism of the wondrous one.
Wow. Anoymous Eagle, the designated Pro MU website, puts out a negative on Wojo research report. That speaks volumes.
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The article is slightly misguided. Transfers aren’t the direct problem but they’re certainly an issue as to why the program hasn’t gotten out of first gear with Wojo. There isn’t enough continuity with high school players to create building blocks for the program to improve year over year. The players who stay haven’t developed much beyond role players.
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The article is slightly misguided. Transfers aren’t the direct problem but they’re certainly an issue as to why the program hasn’t gotten out of first gear with Wojo. There isn’t enough continuity with high school players to create building blocks for the program to improve year over year. The players who stay haven’t developed much beyond role players.
Which leads to the REAL issue...the talent overall simply hasn't been good enough. The reason they only developed into role players, is simple...because they were never meant to be or talented enough to be more than role players no matter how much they developed. Take this next year for example..should a kid like Jamal Cain really be a starter for a High Major program?? Absolutely not. A guy like Cain should be at best a 7th or 8th man. He gives great effort, he's been a great representative of the University, but by no means should he be a starter or even play a significant role, but he'll have to.
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Wow. Anoymous Eagle, the designated Pro MU website, puts out a negative on Wojo research report. That speaks volumes.
It isn't a designated Pro MU website and several of their contributors have been decidedly negative for some time with no real alternative answers, but complaining some of them do well. Tired read.
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Yawn.
Have to go back to the Crean years to find the last time nobody transferred out.
Bailey didn't transfer, he went pro.
The door swings both ways.
Over 800 transfers this year. Statistically speaking, MU is trailing in out tranfers by at least two this offseason.
Blah, blah, blah, Wojo slurper. Blah blah blah, driving everyone away. Blah blah blah I knew he sucked before anyone else did. Blah blah blah I don't trust MU's administration, but I know MU can do better.
Agreed.
If you state something is a problem it needs a comparison to illustrate a why and that something is different. A simple google search will show that our last coach had 12 transfers when using the same criteria. Another google search will show a wanna-to-be sports blogger posting that those 12 transfers showed something wrong with Buzz. Another google search shows that Crean had 13 transfer in his time at Indiana which is probably similar to his time at MU.
Transfers are a Marquette issue not one coach issue.
Anything is fair game to complain about but at least back it up with data.
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Wow. Anoymous Eagle, the designated Pro MU website, puts out a negative on Wojo research report. That speaks volumes.
They’ve been largely negative about Wojo for awhile.
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They’ve been largely negative about Wojo for awhile.
I know someone who can chage that.
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Not really concerned with overall numbers, more focused on the quality of players leaving and why. Hausergate has been beaten to death, so I'll focus on another. I'm still fairly certain that the entire story never came out but Haani leaving low key hurt a lot. He would have been a Senior on the 18-19 squad. At a time when Koby was sitting out, Greg was redshirting, Chartouny couldn't cut it, and Markus was playing though an injury another 6-6 guard that scored 13 ppg his Senior year at a high major while hitting 34% from deep would have been a very nice commodity to have, and could have positively affected that end of season skid. Never know how the roster would have turned out had he stayed, but...
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I know someone who can chage that.
In today's world, they would complain anyway. Few people are happy and entitlement with fans is endless. Win a few years, you only set yourself up for even more complaints because fans expect the mountain to be conquered. My hope is when Wojo leaves we do not have a bunch of you pining for the days of Wojo, but that scenario is entirely possible. We become a program that goes 10 to 20 years with maybe 2 or 3 appearances. Today we only settle for a program that makes the NCAA tournament 75% of the time the last four years. The nerve
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In today's world, they would complain anyway. Few people are happy and entitlement with fans is endless. Win a few years, you only set yourself up for even more complaints because fans expect the mountain to be conquered. My hope is when Wojo leaves we do not have a bunch of you pining for the days of Wojo, but that scenario is entirely possible. We become a program that goes 10 to 20 years with maybe 2 or 3 appearances. Today we only settle for a program that makes the NCAA tournament 75% of the time the last four years. The nerve
You realize Wojo has a losing BE record right?? How in the hell do you justify that?? You can't. Period. It's not like this is the old BE where it's the best conference ever assembled(in which BTW MU won a conference champ). MU should at MINIMUM be finishing in the top 3-4 of the Big East every year. Period. I didn't say win it(so don't put words in my mouth), I said top 3-4(with BE titles sprinkled in). Compared to the rest of the schools in the BE currently, the fact that MU hasn't done that, is a HUGE indictment on the program.
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In today's world, they would complain anyway. Few people are happy and entitlement with fans is endless. Win a few years, you only set yourself up for even more complaints because fans expect the mountain to be conquered. My hope is when Wojo leaves we do not have a bunch of you pining for the days of Wojo, but that scenario is entirely possible. We become a program that goes 10 to 20 years with maybe 2 or 3 appearances. Today we only settle for a program that makes the NCAA tournament 75% of the time the last four years. The nerve
Look, I get that Wojo isn't horrible. He's good. I also recognize that the 10 or 11 seed this year would have been 3 out of 4. I also recognize we will not be in next year. 3 of 7 years is good, not great.
My opinion means squat. Look at his contract situation then tell me MU is sold on him.
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You realize Wojo has a losing BE record right?? How in the hell do you justify that?? You can't. Period. It's not like this is the old BE where it's the best conference ever assembled(in which BTW MU won a conference champ). MU should at MINIMUM be finishing in the top 3-4 of the Big East every year. Period. I didn't say win it(so don't put words in my mouth), I said top 3-4(with BE titles sprinkled in). Compared to the rest of the schools in the BE currently, the fact that MU hasn't done that, is a HUGE indictment on the program.
Yes, because of his first year with a total rebuild. Take out his rookie year without his players, and he has a winning Big East record.
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Look, I get that Wojo isn't horrible. He's good. I also recognize that the 10 or 11 seed this year would have been 3 out of 4. I also recognize we will not be in next year. 3 of 7 years is good, not great.
My opinion means squat. Look at his contract situation then tell me MU is sold on him.
I remember Hards Alumni saying we would not make even the NIT. He was wrong. Does anyone know if we will make the tournament this year, but you do? I prefer to wait and see before establishing that in May.
Who is coming here? Who is buying him out? Why is the new guy staying?
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Yes, because of his first year with a total rebuild. Take out his rookie year without his players, and he has a winning Big East record.
Semantics...but regardless, he has a less than stellar BE record. Again, MU should finish top 3-4 every year. That's not having unrealistic explanations, that's not embellishing or asking for too much. That's just reality a program like MU's should be top 3-4 every year in conference.
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Semantics...but regardless, he has a less than stellar BE record. Again, MU should finish top 3-4 every year. That's not having unrealistic explanations, that's not embellishing or asking for too much. That's just reality a program like MU's should be top 3-4 every year in conference.
Wojo has done a great job of unintentionally lowering a segment of the fan bases expectations.
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Yawn.
Have to go back to the Crean years to find the last time nobody transferred out.
Bailey didn't transfer, he went pro.
Come on, how many players under Crean or Buzz transferred that were actual high calibre solid players and not people playing 2 steps too far up?
And Bailey transferring/going pro is still a player leaving early. It doesn't help the program.
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Come on, how many players under Crean or Buzz transferred that were actual high calibre solid players and not people playing 2 steps too far up?
And Bailey transferring/going pro is still a player leaving early. It doesn't help the program.
Probably about 2 each. Or roughly the same amount as Buzz and Crean.
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Look, I get that Wojo isn't horrible. He's good. I also recognize that the 10 or 11 seed this year would have been 3 out of 4. I also recognize we will not be in next year. 3 of 7 years is good, not great.
My opinion means squat. Look at his contract situation then tell me MU is sold on him.
:o :o :o :o :o :o
3 out of 7 years at MU is not good. It's a failure. This isn't 1989 Marquette. This is a Marquette that made the tournament (starting from 2001) 10 out of 13 times. Wojo has already missed that mark as many times in 6 years.
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:o :o :o :o :o :o
3 out of 7 years at MU is not good. It's a failure. This isn't 1989 Marquette. This is a Marquette that made the tournament (starting from 2001) 10 out of 13 times. Wojo has already missed that mark as many times in 6 years.
Thank you! You just won the internet today..there's nothing more that needs to be said about this. You know what else Wojo has done in 6 years?? Lost to DePaul 6 times..pathetic
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Come on, how many players under Crean or Buzz transferred that were actual high calibre solid players and not people playing 2 steps too far up?
And Bailey transferring/going pro is still a player leaving early. It doesn't help the program.
Blankson - UNLV
Mason - LSU
Mbakwe - Minnesota
Christopherson - Iowa State
Bradley - Wichita State
Amoroso - San Diego State
Burton - Iowa State
All went to major or high mid-major programs.
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Blankson - UNLV - mu starter who did absolutely tear it up at unlv to lessor competition. However there's an argument here that he was recruited over at Marquette.
Mason - LSU - probably a good thing he did transfer. He wasn't bad at Marquette but wasn't great. Absolutely awful at LSU.
Mbakwe - Minnesota - you are cheating quite a bit on this one. First he transferred to miama Dade CC out of Marquette. Played 11 games and limited minutes and then had to have surgery. At the same time Marquette had otule. Then we have to consider that while Minnesota is in a high major conference. Are they really a high major team? Once their he didn't do bad by any means. But was still a reserve as a senior on a very weak team.
Christopherson - Iowa State - averaged 1.3 ppg for Marquette in 18 games. Had surgery to start the year. There's a reason he transferred out of Marquette.
Bradley - Wichita State - transferred after sophomore year while being pegged to the bench and clearly recruited over. Do you also consider witchita state a high major now? Then do you believe them to be a high major in 2004?
Amoroso - San Diego State - you may be into something here. At least he was a solid player. Again however, do you really consider San Diego a high major?
Burton - Iowa State - transferred after playing for wojo?
I believe you missed the easiest one in Jamaal McKay
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Thank you! You just won the internet today..there's nothing more that needs to be said about this. You know what else Wojo has done in 6 years?? Lost to DePaul 6 times..pathetic
Yet the Wojo lovers turn blind loving eyes away from his mediocre performance.
He be their boy.
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In today's world, they would complain anyway. Few people are happy and entitlement with fans is endless. Win a few years, you only set yourself up for even more complaints because fans expect the mountain to be conquered. My hope is when Wojo leaves we do not have a bunch of you pining for the days of Wojo, but that scenario is entirely possible. We become a program that goes 10 to 20 years with maybe 2 or 3 appearances. Today we only settle for a program that makes the NCAA tournament 75% of the time the last four years. The nerve
I guess I have a lot of nerve. When was Marquette’s last ncaa tourney win? By comparison, how has MU done compared to the U of Dane County Badgers over the past 10 years or so? Also by comparison, and having done no research into it, doesn’t it seem the Badgers have more player continuity YOY?...Kobe King notwithstanding.
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I’m more concerned with the kids graduating and getting an education. They’re here to get a degree. Of course they want to win but it’s also just amateurism. Playing for the name on the front of the jersey is what matters most beyond the degree. Student athletes are called that because student comes first. Proud of Jamal Cain as he works towards his degree. He has a chance to be another successful alum of Marquette.
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I’m more concerned with the kids graduating and getting an education. They’re here to get a degree. Of course they want to win but it’s also just amateurism. Playing for the name on the front of the jersey is what matters most beyond the degree. Student athletes are called that because student comes first. Proud of Jamal Cain as he works towards his degree. He has a chance to be another successful alum of Marquette.
There's that mouth again...one day you'll learn..someone's going to fix it for you son.
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There's that mouth again...one day you'll learn..someone's going to fix it for you son.
I’m terrified. I probably learned it from the dude on twitter accusing people of murder
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I’m more concerned with the kids graduating and getting an education. They’re here to get a degree. Of course they want to win but it’s also just amateurism. Playing for the name on the front of the jersey is what matters most beyond the degree. Student athletes are called that because student comes first. Proud of Jamal Cain as he works towards his degree. He has a chance to be another successful alum of Marquette.
Very very very few high d1 athletes (and d1 in general) are concerned about their education.
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In today's world, they would complain anyway. Few people are happy and entitlement with fans is endless. Win a few years, you only set yourself up for even more complaints because fans expect the mountain to be conquered. My hope is when Wojo leaves we do not have a bunch of you pining for the days of Wojo, but that scenario is entirely possible. We become a program that goes 10 to 20 years with maybe 2 or 3 appearances. Today we only settle for a program that makes the NCAA tournament 75% of the time the last four years. The nerve
Keep Wojo, Fire Wojo, don’t matter to me but I guarantee the first time the new coach loses a game, the regular complainers will be here ripping him.
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I guess I have a lot of nerve. When was Marquette’s last ncaa tourney win? By comparison, how has MU done compared to the U of Dane County Badgers over the past 10 years or so? Also by comparison, and having done no research into it, doesn’t it seem the Badgers have more player continuity YOY?...Kobe King notwithstanding.
Just in the last 3 years, Madison had these transfers: Jordan Hill. Kobe King, Andy Can Vliet, Alex Illikaninen and Tai Strickland. They also had a player quit but that might have been 4 or 5 years ago.
Most schools have at least two players leave early every year whether it is transferring, declaring early or quitting. MU is no worse or no better than most schools.
If AE was insinuated that players leaving shows there's an internal problem his premise is way off. If there's a problem, it will manifest itself on not only how many leave but who comes in. In the past 3 years we got 3 solid and highly sought after transfers and 1 very good recruiting class and we'll see with the 21 kids.
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What amazes me is the people that are projos don't seem to grasp one simple concept...if Wojo himself or the projo's want the nojos to stop "complaining", it's really very easily fixable...win...more..games. I know, hard to imagine it's really that simple, isn't it?? That's all that has to happen, and all of this would go away(thankfully).
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Just in the last 3 years, Madison had these transfers: Jordan Hill. Kobe King, Andy Can Vliet, Alex Illikaninen and Tai Strickland. They also had a player quit but that might have been 4 or 5 years ago.
Most schools have at least two players leave early every year whether it is transferring, declaring early or quitting. MU is no worse or no better than most schools.
If AE was insinuated that players leaving shows there's an internal problem his premise is way off. If there's a problem, it will manifest itself on not only how many leave but who comes in. In the past 3 years we got 3 solid and highly sought after transfers and 1 very good recruiting class and we'll see with the 21 kids.
That's just it...transfers happen everywhere, MU is no different, and to me it's all about who you're bringing in to replace said transfer. If you're upgrading the talent, then it SHOULD actually be beneficial. The problem comes in when you aren't upgrading the talent or it's staying relatively the same.
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Just in the last 3 years, Madison had these transfers: Jordan Hill. Kobe King, Andy Can Vliet, Alex Illikaninen and Tai Strickland. They also had a player quit but that might have been 4 or 5 years ago.
Most schools have at least two players leave early every year whether it is transferring, declaring early or quitting. MU is no worse or no better than most schools.
If AE was insinuated that players leaving shows there's an internal problem his premise is way off. If there's a problem, it will manifest itself on not only how many leave but who comes in. In the past 3 years we got 3 solid and highly sought after transfers and 1 very good recruiting class and we'll see with the 21 kids.
The issue is that Wojo and the administration plumage put an emphasis on high school recruiting.
The transfers itself aren’t the overall problem, but it does feel like a one foot in one foot out approach to recruiting. He wants high school guys to develop, but when a couple inevitably transfer, he needs to pivot quickly and find a stop gap transfer.
The high school players who stay, have not yet developed into all conference performers, aside from Markus.
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Just in the last 3 years, Madison had these transfers: Jordan Hill. Kobe King, Andy Can Vliet, Alex Illikaninen and Tai Strickland. They also had a player quit but that might have been 4 or 5 years ago.
Most schools have at least two players leave early every year whether it is transferring, declaring early or quitting. MU is no worse or no better than most schools.
If AE was insinuated that players leaving shows there's an internal problem his premise is way off. If there's a problem, it will manifest itself on not only how many leave but who comes in. In the past 3 years we got 3 solid and highly sought after transfers and 1 very good recruiting class and we'll see with the 21 kids.
There’s the rub. It’s an issue across the college basketball landscape but I read this article as a criticism of the staff and their response/results. AE got some people pointing out that all schools have transfers but as he pointed out, many of those schools keep winning. Someone pointed out Oregon but he responded the Ducks have averaged 23 wins over the last 5 years and have a Final 4. Losing transfers is just an excuse. Everyone is dealing with them. You have to figure out how to win in spite of them.
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I’m more concerned with the kids graduating and getting an education. They’re here to get a degree. Of course they want to win but it’s also just amateurism. Playing for the name on the front of the jersey is what matters most beyond the degree. Student athletes are called that because student comes first. Proud of Jamal Cain as he works towards his degree. He has a chance to be another successful alum of Marquette.
Rico
If we were Holy Cross and played in the Patriot League I would agree. We don’t, so I’ll take recruits like D Wade over the Jamal Cains of the world.
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Rico
If we were Holy Cross and played in the Patriot League I would agree. We don’t, so I’ll take recruits like D Wade over the Jamal Cains of the world.
Oh, I agree. My bigger point is, it’s time to cut the BS and quit the pretense of amateurism and the student athlete. Louisville fans ain’t giving back that 2013 title no matter what the NCAA says.
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This is going to be a year without any transfers out. Two transfers coming in. Eligibility TBD. An odd time to do a piece about transfers under Wojo.
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I put transfers pretty far down on my list of concerns I have about Wojo. Transfers could be dealt with if I thought he was a better in-game coach.
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I put transfers pretty far down on my list of concerns I have about Wojo. Transfers could be dealt with if I thought he was a better in-game coach.
Lack of player development is exposed when guys transfer. That’s the issue.
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Lack of player development is exposed when guys transfer. That’s the issue.
I just don't buy the player development issue. Players have certainly developed under Wojo. Not everyone has developed at the same rate or to the same level, but Markus Howard became an All American. Sacar Anim became a solid starter.
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Oh, I agree. My bigger point is, it’s time to cut the BS and quit the pretense of amateurism and the student athlete. Louisville fans ain’t giving back that 2013 title no matter what the NCAA says.
Okay Rico, I'm going to TRY to take a civilized approach here with you, and try to get you to divulge the REAL reasons behind why you're so determined to pick this hill to die on?? What confounds me about your strong views on this is I'm guessing you have never talked to or asked a D1 football player or basketball player their views on this topic. Admittedly, I haven't either. But I read enough things, to know, it sure seems ot me like you have this view on it that even the student athletes themselves don't have. The question is...why?? Is it that you don't like rich people(Coaches, administrators etc)?? Is it because the NCAA some how wronged you personally at some point?? Do you not like that they punish schools enough for things?? What is it, what is your underlying reason here?? It baffles me that someone would take such a strong stance on this that even the athletes themselves don't have.
This is semi related, but I don't know if you read the post the other day from the athletic talking about the one time transfer rule..Dana O' Neill got quotes from several players about it and the basis for the article was really Sam Hauser. Every one of the players she talked to, thought that sitting out was actually a good thing, and Sam himself even said that even had he been able to play right away, he would have sat out anyway.
I'm sure you understand that no one makes these kids go to college..they have other options, yet they still choose to do it, and doesn't it make sense that if they really thought it was so bad, they simply wouldn't do it??
I'm really interested to hear why you feel as strongly as you do(and you aren't the only one that does)..because it just seems odd, that you seemingly care so much and feel so strongly about something that the people effected by it directly don't even care that much about it...they just do what they do.
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I just don't buy the player development issue. Players have certainly developed under Wojo. Not everyone has developed at the same rate or to the same level, but Markus Howard became an All American. Sacar Anim became a solid starter.
There are very few coaches in college any good at player development nowadays, anyway. Also, some guys peak as sophomores, some as seniors. Sometimes, it’s the player is what he or she is
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Okay Rico, I'm going to TRY to take a civilized approach here with you, and try to get you to divulge the REAL reasons behind why you're so determined to pick this hill to die on?? What confounds me about your strong views on this is I'm guessing you have never talked to or asked a D1 football player or basketball player their views on this topic. Admittedly, I haven't either. But I read enough things, to know, it sure seems ot me like you have this view on it that even the student athletes themselves don't have. The question is...why?? Is it that you don't like rich people(Coaches, administrators etc)?? Is it because the NCAA some how wronged you personally at some point?? Do you not like that they punish schools enough for things?? What is it, what is your underlying reason here?? It baffles me that someone would take such a strong stance on this that even the athletes themselves don't have.
This is semi related, but I don't know if you read the post the other day from the athletic talking about the one time transfer rule..Dana O' Neill got quotes from several players about it and the basis for the article was really Sam Hauser. Every one of the players she talked to, thought that sitting out was actually a good thing, and Sam himself even said that even had he been able to play right away, he would have sat out anyway.
I'm sure you understand that no one makes these kids go to college..they have other options, yet they still choose to do it, and doesn't it make sense that if they really thought it was so bad, they simply wouldn't do it??
I'm really interested to hear why you feel as strongly as you do(and you aren't the only one that does)..because it just seems odd, that you seemingly care so much and feel so strongly about something that the people effected by it directly don't even care that much about it...they just do what they do.
No one protects college basketball coaches quite like college basketball writers
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No one protects college basketball coaches quite like college basketball writers
Alright, it's obvious trying to be civil with you is getting me nowhere..so i'm done. You continue to be obtuse, a total smart ass, and seemingly afraid to divulge your reasons for thinking the way you do. It's obviously one of those things where as you'd say "you just are" without having any real basis for feeling that way. That's fine, that's your choice I guess. Can't say I didn't try. ?-(
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Concerns about Wojo: Scheme. In game adjustments.
Not concerns about Wojo: Player development, transfers.
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Alright, it's obvious trying to be civil with you is getting me nowhere..so i'm done. You continue to be obtuse, a total smart ass, and seemingly afraid to divulge your reasons for thinking the way you do. It's obviously one of those things where as you'd say "you just are" without having any real basis for feeling that way. That's fine, that's your choice I guess. Can't say I didn't try. ?-(
I’ve laid out my reasons plenty of times and no one protects college basketball coaches like college basketball writers is a fact.
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Okay Rico, I'm going to TRY to take a civilized approach here with you, and try to get you to divulge the REAL reasons behind why you're so determined to pick this hill to die on?? What confounds me about your strong views on this is I'm guessing you have never talked to or asked a D1 football player or basketball player their views on this topic. Admittedly, I haven't either. But I read enough things, to know, it sure seems ot me like you have this view on it that even the student athletes themselves don't have. The question is...why?? Is it that you don't like rich people(Coaches, administrators etc)?? Is it because the NCAA some how wronged you personally at some point?? Do you not like that they punish schools enough for things?? What is it, what is your underlying reason here?? It baffles me that someone would take such a strong stance on this that even the athletes themselves don't have.
This is semi related, but I don't know if you read the post the other day from the athletic talking about the one time transfer rule..Dana O' Neill got quotes from several players about it and the basis for the article was really Sam Hauser. Every one of the players she talked to, thought that sitting out was actually a good thing, and Sam himself even said that even had he been able to play right away, he would have sat out anyway.
I'm sure you understand that no one makes these kids go to college..they have other options, yet they still choose to do it, and doesn't it make sense that if they really thought it was so bad, they simply wouldn't do it??
I'm really interested to hear why you feel as strongly as you do(and you aren't the only one that does)..because it just seems odd, that you seemingly care so much and feel so strongly about something that the people effected by it directly don't even care that much about it...they just do what they do.
My reason: Amateurism is stupid.
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I'm always amused by the fact that everyone seems to think Wojo has problems in so many areas. He's a bad game coach. He can't develop players. He can't retain players. He can't recruit well enough. Yet despite all these apparent flaws, he's still getting teams to the NCAA tournament and has had us in the upper half of high major programs each of the past four years.
Honestly, I don't think he's a bad game coach, or a bad recruiter, or a bad developer. I think he's good at all of those things. But I don't think he's great at any of them yet. I think that's where I have the most concern, is his ceiling just being a good all around coach? MU is betting that this is not his ceiling and he will continue to improve.
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My reason: Amateurism is stupid.
See...this is exactly what i thought..those of that are so strongly against it, don't really have well reasoned answers as to why you feel the way you do. You just do. "amateurism is stupid" shows you don't have a reason to feel that way. And because you feel that way, that's just the way it's supposed to be.
I could say: wearing a mask is "stupid". That doesn't however mean that there aren't valid reasons for masks being worn. You can think something is stupid all you want, but that doesn't mean there aren't reasons it needs to be the way that it is, or why it is the way that it is.
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See...this is exactly what i thought..those of that are so strongly against it, don't really have well reasoned answers as to why you feel the way you do. You just do. "amateurism is stupid" shows you don't have a reason to feel that way. And because you feel that way, that's just the way it's supposed to be.
I could say: wearing a mask is "stupid". That doesn't however mean that there aren't valid reasons for masks being worn. You can think something is stupid all you want, but that doesn't mean there aren't reasons it needs to be the way that it is, or why it is the way that it is.
There’s nothing amateur about major college athletics. Hence, amateurism is a stupid crutch to keep from players being paid
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I just don't buy the player development issue. Players have certainly developed under Wojo. Not everyone has developed at the same rate or to the same level, but Markus Howard became an All American. Sacar Anim became a solid starter.
Howard is an all American and Hauser was an all conference performer. Aside from those two, we haven’t had a high school recruit all conference player during Wojo’s tenure. (Except Ellenson).
Sacar is an awesome role player but he’s not a difference maker. Theo is a great defensive player, but again, not a difference maker etc.
As I’m typing this, maybe I can be convinced otherwise....Is it an overall talent issue coming into the program from high school or a lack of development beyond normal expected growth?
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See...this is exactly what i thought..those of that are so strongly against it, don't really have well reasoned answers as to why you feel the way you do. You just do. "amateurism is stupid" shows you don't have a reason to feel that way. And because you feel that way, that's just the way it's supposed to be.
I could say: wearing a mask is "stupid". That doesn't however mean that there aren't valid reasons for masks being worn. You can think something is stupid all you want, but that doesn't mean there aren't reasons it needs to be the way that it is, or why it is the way that it is.
Fine.
In every level of society, we say it is "unamerican" to limit someone's compensation. You or I can go out and make whatever money someone is willing to pay us. In college ahtletics, that means coaches, athletic directors, administrators, Presidents, etc. can make whatever they can.
Except the players. Their compensation is limited to the value of the scholarship. And the reason given is due to "fairness." But fairness doesn't prevents conferences from raiding other conferences for their top members. It doesn't prevent those conferences from signing television deals that dwarf other conferences. It doesn't prevent them from setting up a "tournament share" arrangement that pays teams from those conferences more. And then they get to use that money to pay the best coaches, create the best facilities, etc.
How fair is that?
In professional sports at least, compensation caps are government by a collective bargaining agreement negotiated by a union. College players don't even have that. They have to take a set level of compensation without any negotiation on their part. And that's it.
It is fundamentally unfair.
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Howard is an all American and Hauser was an all conference performer. Aside from those two, we haven’t had a high school recruit all conference player during Wojo’s tenure. (Except Ellenson).
Sacar is an awesome role player but he’s not a difference maker. Theo is a great defensive player, but again, not a difference maker etc.
As I’m typing this, maybe I can be convinced otherwise....Is it an overall talent issue coming into the program from high school or a lack of development beyond normal expected growth?
It's a talent issue...the guys that he has brought in, in a lot of instances are what they are..the best you can ever hope for is for them to be a solid role player. Yes, every program needs those guys, but too often in the last six years MU has had role players being important parts of the rotation. That's a talent problem, because it should never come to that. Guys who should be no better than 8-9 guys in a high major rotation, have been thrust into key roles or even been starters for MU. That's not going to get it done.
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Just in the last 3 years, Madison had these transfers: Jordan Hill. Kobe King, Andy Can Vliet, Alex Illikaninen and Tai Strickland.
I think the point goes back to the Oregon discussion earlier about winning despite turnover. Wisconsin has 2 Final Fours & 2 Sweet 16 since 2014 and just won the Big Ten this past season despite Kobe King abruptly leaving mid-season. The point gets amplified in the article because Wojo doesn't have a tourney win 7 years in and is under .500 in the new Big East, people are searching for answers. If he was losing players and winning nobody cares.
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Theo is a great defensive player
Is he though? Sure he gets a bunch of blocks and looks intimidating. But he goes for blocks alot. Most times he falls out of position and either contests the shot and force a miss, but then is out of position for a rebound and they get +2 on a put back, or he fouls.
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If you look at that list it's a little disconcerting. But I was reading it to my GF and each of them had a logical reason outside of the Hausers. If it was systemic it would seem to be that there wouldn't be a reason behind most of these.
Harry and Wally didn't belong at this level
Henry hadevery right to go he was never staying all Four years and wasn't going to develop more or get a degree by staying 2.
Burton tough draw but makes sense. I nearly transferred for a heck of a lot less than mom dying.
Haani they claimed it was something pulling him back home. Unfortunately the timing IMO killed us at Georgia and ruined another bid.
Duane and Traci both were recruited over.
Sandy and Steve would've been solid roll player but were vastly over matched in the BE.
Bailey is making a weird decision but has stated Stan is what got him here and who can fault him for not wanting to be in his mid 20s. I felt old being a 5th yr senior can't imagine being 24 at college.
That leaves Joey and Sam which has been beaten to death.
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Concerns about Wojo: Scheme. In game adjustments.
Not concerns about Wojo: Player development, transfers.
Agree with Tower ....
This is one of the biggest non-story threads in a long time.
800 transfers a year in D1 MBB. And if you look at other sports, even non-revenue sports, some of the transfer rates are even higher. College tennis has nearly 40% of rosters turnover.
Welcome to 2020 where almost no athlete, in any sport, at any D1 school, stays for four years. They are not students, they are essentially professional athletes moving around to find their best situation.
But the real question ... is the talent level of the roster decreasing? I see one of the best-recruiting classes coming in, in addition to Carton transferring in. So, I see no drop in talent. Therefore, this is a non-problem.
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Fine.
In every level of society, we say it is "unamerican" to limit someone's compensation. You or I can go out and make whatever money someone is willing to pay us. In college ahtletics, that means coaches, athletic directors, administrators, Presidents, etc. can make whatever they can.
Except the players. Their compensation is limited to the value of the scholarship. And the reason given is due to "fairness." But fairness doesn't prevents conferences from raiding other conferences for their top members. It doesn't prevent those conferences from signing television deals that dwarf other conferences. It doesn't prevent them from setting up a "tournament share" arrangement that pays teams from those conferences more. And then they get to use that money to pay the best coaches, create the best facilities, etc.
How fair is that?
In professional sports at least, compensation caps are government by a collective bargaining agreement negotiated by a union. College players don't even have that. They have to take a set level of compensation without any negotiation on their part. And that's it.
It is fundamentally unfair.
Thank you, at least you gave a well thought out reasoning for why you feel that way. Now I'm not saying any of this to be condescending at all, but Sultan, it's not like the value of a scholarship is chump change, that is worth something, quite a bit of something, wouldn't you agree?? It's the schools that pay for those for the athletes, while a vast majority of the general student population don't have that luxury. That's one thing.
Second...technically their compensation isn't limited...again, no one is making them go to college to be a student athlete. They have many choices they could make to be "fairly" compensated. they could give up basketball(or whatever sport) altogether after HS and go get a regular job like a vast majority of people have to do, and they would then be employees and will be compensated. Or, they can even go to college if they so choose, and they can just not play a sport, be a regular college student, get a job etc, they will be compensated. They can also try their hand at going pro somewhere out of HS, overseas or whatever. They have options, and no one is making them do anything they aren't choosing to do of their own free will.
They don't have a union because they aren't employees. Again, none of this is to be condescending, but it's all true. Honestly, how different would things look(and I will likely get vilified for this, but oh well), if there were no Title IX requirements because of "fairness"?? You take that requirement away and I think the landscape would be completely different.
The cold hard reality is, life just isn't fair..no matter how much we all may want it to be, it never has been and it never will be.
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Is he though? Sure he gets a bunch of blocks and looks intimidating. But he goes for blocks alot. Most times he falls out of position and either contests the shot and force a miss, but then is out of position for a rebound and they get +2 on a put back, or he fouls.
Theo is an excellent defender. If you're influential enough that other coaches are telling their players not to to even drive at him, you're a good defender. Theo's foul troubles are also exaggerated based on reputation from his Freshman and Sophomore years. Last year he had a lower fouls per 40 than Jayce, and his fouls per 40 have dropped from 8.5 to 7.4 to 5.2. He still has flaws (most notably on the offensive end), and while I'm not 100% up to speed on other teams rosters, I would say he is one of ,if not the, best defensive returning bigs in the conference.
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It's a talent issue...the guys that he has brought in, in a lot of instances are what they are..the best you can ever hope for is for them to be a solid role player. Yes, every program needs those guys, but too often in the last six years MU has had role players being important parts of the rotation. That's a n thrust into key roles or even been starters for MU. That's not going to get it done.
You get what you get. Its easy to say get better recruits. In reality it isn't that easy. Shoe companies are funneling the best players to their marquis programs. Some kids may not want to spend their winters in Wisconsin when they can play in FL, GA, TX etc. You say recruit internationally. When in fact only about 8 - 10 players are better than what we have. Look at any list and most those players played HS ball in the US. So you spend a ton of money chasing a few guys who you don't know who they are tied in.
You have 10 -12 programs that are consistent top 15 programs then there are 30 - 40 programs who think like you do about MU that they should be consistent top 20 programs. Do the math.
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Thank you, at least you gave a well thought out reasoning for why you feel that way. Now I'm not saying any of this to be condescending at all, but Sultan, it's not like the value of a scholarship is chump change, that is worth something, quite a bit of something, wouldn't you agree?? It's the schools that pay for those for the athletes, while a vast majority of the general student population don't have that luxury. That's one thing.
But that's the case everywhere. Economics suggests that society values basketball players more valuable than "essential workers." So whatever the value of the scholarship is, it doesn't matter if you or I think "well that's a lot of money. They shouldn't make more." I mean...why not?
Second...technically their compensation isn't limited...again, no one is making them go to college to be a student athlete. They have many choices they could make to be "fairly" compensated. they could give up basketball(or whatever sport) altogether after HS and go get a regular job like a vast majority of people have to do, and they would then be employees and will be compensated. Or, they can even go to college if they so choose, and they can just not play a sport, be a regular college student, get a job etc, they will be compensated. They can also try their hand at going pro somewhere out of HS, overseas or whatever. They have options, and no one is making them do anything they aren't choosing to do of their own free will.
That is a good point. And frankly it's the best counter to what I said. But those aren't great options for most 18 year olds.
They don't have a union because they aren't employees. Again, none of this is to be condescending, but it's all true. Honestly, how different would things look(and I will likely get vilified for this, but oh well), if there were no Title IX requirements because of "fairness"?? You take that requirement away and I think the landscape would be completely different.
I'm not suggesting they should be in a union. And Title IX isn't an issue if compensation is paid by outside entities.
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Concerns about Wojo: Scheme. In game adjustments.
Not concerns about Wojo: Player development, transfers.
I disagree with this completely, player development is a huge issue. Markus didn't develop with Wojo, he developed because his brothers pushed him and trained him.
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I disagree with this completely, player development is a huge issue. Markus didn't develop with Wojo, he developed because his brothers pushed him and trained him.
Lol. Every college player is training on their own or with someone else in off seasons. So I guess no coach in college basketball develops players.
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I disagree with this completely, player development is a huge issue. Markus didn't develop with Wojo, he developed because his brothers pushed him and trained him.
Yeah, that's not really the case.
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I would guess that Marquette's "retention problem" is similar to other programs in the same realm, and less of an issue than the elite programs.
Its the way CBB is today.
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Lol. Every college player is training on their own or with someone else in off seasons. So I guess no coach in college basketball develops players.
Aw c'mon wades ... you gotta get hip to the rules:
Any Marquette player who develops over time into a better player, it is because he worked on his own, he worked with his family, he worked with fellow players or he worked with assistant coaches. Or he just had raw talent and it developed naturally. Wojo gets 0% of the credit.
Any Marquette player who doesn't develop over time into a better player, it is because Wojo is a de-motivating failure. Wojo gets 100% of the blame.
Got it now?
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Why is Henry even on that list? He was a known one-and-done while in high school. That's hardly unexpected roster turnover which is the point they're trying to make. Blowing up the situation way more than it should be. One could consistently write this same thing for over half the teams in Cbb.
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Don't worry, when the G League is taking the top 25-30 H.S players, Wojo's recruits won't look so bad.
We just need to wait another few years.
How does that teal thing work???
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Assuming its the same guy who runs the AE twitter page, he's been a debby downer for awhile now. So clearly he's just soured on things. Which is somewhat understandable, frankly.
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There can be many debates on the subject, but I think all MU fans definitely want the program to be striving for more (given the results of the past 5-6 years). To me, I think it is as simple as just looking at the Big East in terms of players that played in the NBA this past year.
Butler: 1 (Martin)
Creighton: 2 (McDermott, Thomas)
DePaul: 1 (Strus)
Marquette: 1 (Anderson) *You can include Burton as original MU recruit, but he wasn't a Wojo recruit, nor did he graduate MU
Providence: 1 (Dunn)
St. John's: 1 (Sampson)
Villanova: 7 (Archidiacono, Bridges, Brunson, DiVincenzo, Hart, Paschall, Spellman)
Xavier: 1 (Sumner)
Georgetown/Seton Hall: 0
Whenever the NBA draft is, it is safe to assume Bey is a 1st rounder, and that guys like Reed, Alexander, Marshall, Markus, Powell and Yurtseven will get drafted/look-ins too.
In the BE, it's Villanova, followed by everyone else by a wide margin. Given the lack of consistent NBA talent, you have to view guys like Cooley, Willard and Mack (before he left) were all over-performing given their talent pools. You could also strongly argue that DePaul has been underperforming given the number of guys that have played in the NBA (Reed, Garrett, Henry, Strus), and their consistent last-place finishes.
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There can be many debates on the subject, but I think all MU fans definitely want the program to be striving for more (given the results of the past 5-6 years). To me, I think it is as simple as just looking at the Big East in terms of players that played in the NBA this past year.
Butler: 1 (Martin)
Creighton: 2 (McDermott, Thomas)
DePaul: 1 (Strus)
Marquette: 1 (Anderson) *You can include Burton as original MU recruit, but he wasn't a Wojo recruit, nor did he graduate MU
Providence: 1 (Dunn)
St. John's: 1 (Sampson)
Villanova: 7 (Archidiacono, Bridges, Brunson, DiVincenzo, Hart, Paschall, Spellman)
Xavier: 1 (Sumner)
Georgetown/Seton Hall: 0
Whenever the NBA draft is, it is safe to assume Bey is a 1st rounder, and that guys like Reed, Alexander, Marshall, Markus, Powell and Yurtseven will get drafted/look-ins too.
In the BE, it's Villanova, followed by everyone else by a wide margin. Given the lack of consistent NBA talent, you have to view guys like Cooley, Willard and Mack (before he left) were all over-performing given their talent pools. You could also strongly argue that DePaul has been underperforming given the number of guys that have played in the NBA (Reed, Garrett, Henry, Strus), and their consistent last-place finishes.
I am assuming your are limiting this to players that played during the Wojo era correct?
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But the real question ... is the talent level of the roster decreasing? I see one of the best-recruiting classes coming in, in addition to Carton transferring in. So, I see no drop in talent. Therefore, this is a non-problem.
Let’s archive this statement and see how this recruiting class turns out, both by development and roster turnover.
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Let’s archive this statement and see how this recruiting class turns out, both by development and roster turnover.
The good news is Oso works out with the guy who developed Howard for us, so he’ll obviously develop. I just hope Dawson and Justin can find trainers that will develop them for us.
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There can be many debates on the subject, but I think all MU fans definitely want the program to be striving for more (given the results of the past 5-6 years). To me, I think it is as simple as just looking at the Big East in terms of players that played in the NBA this past year.
Butler: 1 (Martin)
Creighton: 2 (McDermott, Thomas)
DePaul: 1 (Strus)
Marquette: 1 (Anderson) *You can include Burton as original MU recruit, but he wasn't a Wojo recruit, nor did he graduate MU
Providence: 1 (Dunn)
St. John's: 1 (Sampson)
Villanova: 7 (Archidiacono, Bridges, Brunson, DiVincenzo, Hart, Paschall, Spellman)
Xavier: 1 (Sumner)
Georgetown/Seton Hall: 0
Whenever the NBA draft is, it is safe to assume Bey is a 1st rounder, and that guys like Reed, Alexander, Marshall, Markus, Powell and Yurtseven will get drafted/look-ins too.
In the BE, it's Villanova, followed by everyone else by a wide margin. Given the lack of consistent NBA talent, you have to view guys like Cooley, Willard and Mack (before he left) were all over-performing given their talent pools. You could also strongly argue that DePaul has been underperforming given the number of guys that have played in the NBA (Reed, Garrett, Henry, Strus), and their consistent last-place finishes.
Interesting approach, but it's definitely not "as simple as" that. Perfect example; X in 17-18; 29-6, won the Beast, got a 1 seed, zero future NBA players (Marshall may get a look somewhere but is vastly overrated, similar story with Jones and Scruggs). You can be a very good college player and not have any NBA success, see Scottie Reynolds, Trevon Bluiett, Kevin Jones, DJO, etc.
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There can be many debates on the subject, but I think all MU fans definitely want the program to be striving for more (given the results of the past 5-6 years). To me, I think it is as simple as just looking at the Big East in terms of players that played in the NBA this past year.
Butler: 1 (Martin)
Creighton: 2 (McDermott, Thomas)
DePaul: 1 (Strus)
Marquette: 1 (Anderson) *You can include Burton as original MU recruit, but he wasn't a Wojo recruit, nor did he graduate MU
Providence: 1 (Dunn)
St. John's: 1 (Sampson)
Villanova: 7 (Archidiacono, Bridges, Brunson, DiVincenzo, Hart, Paschall, Spellman)
Xavier: 1 (Sumner)
Georgetown/Seton Hall: 0
Whenever the NBA draft is, it is safe to assume Bey is a 1st rounder, and that guys like Reed, Alexander, Marshall, Markus, Powell and Yurtseven will get drafted/look-ins too.
In the BE, it's Villanova, followed by everyone else by a wide margin. Given the lack of consistent NBA talent, you have to view guys like Cooley, Willard and Mack (before he left) were all over-performing given their talent pools. You could also strongly argue that DePaul has been underperforming given the number of guys that have played in the NBA (Reed, Garrett, Henry, Strus), and their consistent last-place finishes.
Not a good argument. Great college players don't always transition to be great or even good NBA players. It is the same with college football. Just look at the number of draft misses.
Just for example. The 2016 All American Team were Brogdon, Heild, Bryce Johnson of UNC, Ben Simmons, Tyler Ulis of KY and Denzel Valentine. 2nd Team Kris Dunn, Perry Ellis, George Niang, Jakob Polti and Jarrod Utoff.
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Ok but how many players transferred in?
Its a two way door. Players and families decide what is best for them, not the coaches.
Also with the age of one and done being basically nonexistent, transfers and players leaving to go pro after 2-3 years is going to skyrocket. Kids come in, maybe with the intention of finishing a degree or whatever but then decide they want $$$ and say eff it. Its gonna happen a lot.
Also, with the landscape of the pandemic right now maybe Brendan decided a year of playing would not benefit anymore than just going pro. Who knows.
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I am assuming your are limiting this to players that played during the Wojo era correct?
Yes, correct. Didn't make sense to extend the range further than '14.
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Interesting approach, but it's definitely not "as simple as" that. Perfect example; X in 17-18; 29-6, won the Beast, got a 1 seed, zero future NBA players (Marshall may get a look somewhere but is vastly overrated, similar story with Jones and Scruggs). You can be a very good college player and not have any NBA success, see Scottie Reynolds, Trevon Bluiett, Kevin Jones, DJO, etc.
That's why I said that Mack (among others) overachieved, given their lack of NBA talent.
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Not a good argument. Great college players don't always transition to be great or even good NBA players. It is the same with college football. Just look at the number of draft misses.
Just for example. The 2016 All American Team were Brogdon, Heild, Bryce Johnson of UNC, Ben Simmons, Tyler Ulis of KY and Denzel Valentine. 2nd Team Kris Dunn, Perry Ellis, George Niang, Jakob Polti and Jarrod Utoff.
Read it again. I never once said a program needs great/good NBA players. I also started the entire post with saying there can be many debates on the subject. I simply was looking at the number of players that each BE program made it to the NBA. We are in the bottom-half of the BE with players making it to the NBA, regardless of playing time/skill. I also think there's a strong argument to made regarding Villanova's dominance in the BE; they are developing players and getting them into the NBA. They aren't recruiting blue chip one-and-dones either. Thus, it is very possible to have a sustainable, winning program, with players regularly entering the NBA.
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Aw c'mon wades ... you gotta get hip to the rules:
Any Marquette player who develops over time into a better player, it is because he worked on his own, he worked with his family, he worked with fellow players or he worked with assistant coaches. Or he just had raw talent and it developed naturally. Wojo gets 0% of the credit.
Any Marquette player who doesn't develop over time into a better player, it is because Wojo is a de-motivating failure. Wojo gets 100% of the blame.
Got it now?
Exactly.
I wonder how much of this paradigm owes itself to Wojo’s unfortunately hoarse voice in timeouts, which leads to the usual suspects arrogantly impugning his intelligence.
Yet those same dimwits place Buzz’s “butcher, Baker, candlestick maker” dialect at the top of the Wechsler intelligence scale and rush to label him AL 2.0.
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That's why I said that Mack (among others) overachieved, given their NBA talent.
It's still a terrible metric to use. Seton Hall currently has zero players in the NBA, but Powell will play somewhere, Whitehead played for 2 years, Delgado played for a season, and both Carrington and Rodriguez had 2 way contracts. So by your count SH has zero, but in terms of talent, there's 5 players that have played in the Association, and Willard turned that into 1 NCAA win. You say he's overachieving, there's an argument that he's underachieving based on the talent he has. There's plenty of other flaws too.
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It's still a terrible metric to use. Seton Hall currently has zero players in the NBA, but Powell with play somewhere, Whitehead played for 2 years, Delgado played for a season, and both Carrington and Rodriguez had 2 way contracts. So by your count SH has zero, but in terms of talent, there's 5 players that have played in the Association, and Willard turned that into 1 NCAA win. You say he's overachieving, there's an argument that he's underachieving based on the talent he has. There's plenty of other flaws too.
I think there is a pretty strong correlation between future NBA talent and NCAA success. There is a pretty good reason why Buzz succeeded when he did at MU.
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I think there is a pretty strong correlation between future NBA talent and NCAA success. There is a pretty good reason why Buzz succeeded when he did at MU.
Bingo
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I think there is a pretty strong correlation between future NBA talent and NCAA success. There is a pretty good reason why Buzz succeeded when he did at MU.
Correlation is not causation. Of course there are going to be success stories, but there are way too many outliers to say that you need NBA talent to win at the NCAA level. Based on Warrior11 metric, Buzz's best team got to the E8 with one current NBA talent, and I gotta say, I don't think Juan's 2.7 ppg made a huge difference that year.
NBA level talent makes it easier to succeed at the NCAA level (I'm not suggesting otherwise), but only looking at current NBA rosters to determine NCAA levels of success since '14 is a terrible metric.
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Correlation is not causation. Of course there are going to be success stories, but there are way too many outliers to say that you need NBA talent to win at the NCAA level. Based on Warrior11 metric, Buzz's best team got to the E8 with one current NBA talent, and I gotta say, I don't think Juan's 2.7 ppg made a huge difference that year.
NBA level talent makes it easier to succeed at the NCAA level (I'm not suggesting otherwise), but only looking at current NBA rosters to determine NCAA levels of success since '14 is a terrible metric.
Enough correlation actually does imply causation.
Buzz's E8 team did have two additional players that had cups of coffee in the NBA BTW.
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Blankson - UNLV - mu starter who did absolutely tear it up at unlv to lessor competition. However there's an argument here that he was recruited over at Marquette.
Mason - LSU - probably a good thing he did transfer. He wasn't bad at Marquette but wasn't great. Absolutely awful at LSU.
Mbakwe - Minnesota - you are cheating quite a bit on this one. First he transferred to miama Dade CC out of Marquette. Played 11 games and limited minutes and then had to have surgery. At the same time Marquette had otule. Then we have to consider that while Minnesota is in a high major conference. Are they really a high major team? Once their he didn't do bad by any means. But was still a reserve as a senior on a very weak team.
Christopherson - Iowa State - averaged 1.3 ppg for Marquette in 18 games. Had surgery to start the year. There's a reason he transferred out of Marquette.
Bradley - Wichita State - transferred after sophomore year while being pegged to the bench and clearly recruited over. Do you also consider witchita state a high major now? Then do you believe them to be a high major in 2004?
Amoroso - San Diego State - you may be into something here. At least he was a solid player. Again however, do you really consider San Diego a high major?
Burton - Iowa State - transferred after playing for wojo?
I believe you missed the easiest one in Jamaal McKay
McKay never played for us (Buzz did him dirty) so i didn't include him. Thought about also including Newbill but, you know...
Blankson - transferred due to bad advice from his brother and jealousy of Wade's success. He was Barro's host on his OV at UNLV and told the kid to go to MU, leaving with his biggest mistake.
Mason - there was an injury or heart issue or something that affected his time at LSU. He had the talent but not the right attitude. #38 player in the country coming out of HS, thought he was going to the be the next Wade. Teammates, Travis in particular, hated his attitude.
Mbakwe - Transferred to JUCO so he didn't have to sit. Two of the teams Mbakwe was on won 20+, one NCAA 2nd round, and one NIT final. Double figure scorer all three years, led the BigTen in rebounding as a sophomore with over 10 a game and averaged 10 and 8.7 on a 23 win team. You're stretching to not call Minnesota a major.
Christopherson - 44% career three point shooter at ISU. 11.4 ppg game for his ISU career. I'd say we could have used that.
Bradley - Solid career at high mid-major (notice I put that in the original post). We definitely could have used him for depth.
Amoroso - again, "high mid-major." His transfer was his own doing. His attitude got out of control after the GAS game.
Burton - I did not remember exactly when he transferred but it was due to his mother's death. One cannot put that on Wojo.
So yes, we have lost a solid number who would have been contributors or even difference makers for us, but in most cases there were underlying issues leading to the the transfer that do not reflect poorly upon MU as a program or the coaches who were here.
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Enough correlation actually does imply causation.
Buzz's E8 team did have two additional players that had cups of coffee in the NBA BTW.
But that's not what Warrior11 lists was, it was current players in the NBA, our E8 team along with the SH example earlier both prove why that is a terrible metric. I'm not saying that NBA level talent doesn't lead to NCAA success, it'd be stupid to suggest that. I'm saying that there are way too many examples of great college players that had no NBA experience, as well as great college team that had little to no NBA level talent. Suggesting that something is "as simple as" looking at the number of players that a team currently has the Association is a terrible metric.
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It's still a terrible metric to use. Seton Hall currently has zero players in the NBA, but Powell will play somewhere, Whitehead played for 2 years, Delgado played for a season, and both Carrington and Rodriguez had 2 way contracts. So by your count SH has zero, but in terms of talent, there's 5 players that have played in the Association, and Willard turned that into 1 NCAA win. You say he's overachieving, there's an argument that he's underachieving based on the talent he has. There's plenty of other flaws too.
You're doing a fabulous job at reading comprehension. I said in the NBA this past year. If anything, you have just strengthened the entire argument.
Yes, Seton Hall has had Delgado and Whitehead in the NBA in the past few years as well (and will have Powell this year too). Providence has had Bentil, Cotton and Dunn. Marquette, in comparison, has fallen short of other BE programs will getting players into the NBA. Howard should absolutely get a look. But, other than Markus and Henry (Juan was a Buzz recruit), there is a strong argument as to why Marquette struggles to consistently compete with the top-group of the BE.
Look at Georgetown. They have had just one player in the past few years get to the NBA (Marcus Derrickson). Georgetown has not made a tournament since 2015.
Again, this is just a snapshot; there are numerous others that make up the full picture.
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Double post.
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https://www.talkbasket.net/57400-which-colleges-have-the-most-active-nba-players
Of course a lot of the schools with the most NBA talent have had the most recent success, but no one can argue that I4, USC, Washington, and MU West have had the same level of success. That is what your original list stipulates.
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You're doing a fabulous job at reading comprehension. I said in the NBA this past year. If anything, you have just strengthened the entire argument.
Yes, Seton Hall has had Delgado and Whitehead in the NBA in the past few years as well (and will have Powell this year too). Providence has had Bentil, Cotton and Dunn. Marquette, in comparison, has fallen short of other BE programs will getting players into the NBA. Howard should absolutely get a look. But, other than Markus and Henry (Juan was a Buzz recruit), there is a strong argument as to why Marquette struggles to consistently compete with the top-group of the BE.
Look at Georgetown. They have had just one player in the past few years get to the NBA (Marcus Derrickson). Georgetown has not made a tournament since 2015.
Again, this is just a snapshot; there are numerous others that make up the full picture.
So if PC and SH have had so much talent and turned it into 1 NCAA win a piece, why did you say that Cooley and Willard were overachieving?
Also, bolded directly contradicts your "as simple as" post earlier which is the one I took exception to.
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Correlation is not causation. Of course there are going to be success stories, but there are way too many outliers to say that you need NBA talent to win at the NCAA level. Based on Warrior11 metric, Buzz's best team got to the E8 with one current NBA talent, and I gotta say, I don't think Juan's 2.7 ppg made a huge difference that year.
NBA level talent makes it easier to succeed at the NCAA level (I'm not suggesting otherwise), but only looking at current NBA rosters to determine NCAA levels of success since '14 is a terrible metric.
Jamil and Vander also played in the NBA. The last time MU won a tournament game, we had multiple players that ended up playing in the NBA.
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Jamil and Vander also played in the NBA. The last time MU won a tournament game, we had multiple players that ended up playing in the NBA.
Which is not what your original list was consisting of.
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Jamil and Vander also played in the NBA. The last time MU won a tournament game, we had multiple players that ended up playing in the NBA.
Also last time MU was below .500 we had multiple players that ended up playing in the NBA. Maybe NBA players aren't the best correlation.
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I think this is also a fact of the type of players that the NBA values versus the type of players that Buzz and Wojo recruited. The NBA values athleticism over almost everything else, this is why certain players (Deonte, Juan) end up getting contracts, even though they weren't necessarily great college basketball players. Wojo, at least initialy, valued shooting over everything else. Carlino was a very good college player that was never going to be an NBA player because of his lack of athleticism. Similar story for Rowsey. Main factor why Markus will likely not last too long. Doesn't mean that they weren't good college players, just that they weren't what the NBA wants.
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So if PC and SH have had so much talent and turned it into 1 NCAA win a piece, why did you say that Cooley and Willard were overachieving?
Also, bolded directly contradicts your "as simple as" post earlier which is the one I took exception to.
In the NBA, this past year, Seton Hall had zero players in the NBA; Providence had one (Dunn). Both have had players play in the NBA in prior years. Considering Willard has made 4 (5, this year) consecutive NCAA Tournaments, with just one present NBA player, and in relation to other BE programs' relation to present NBA alumni, yes - I'd argue, with what Willard has had, as NBA talent, he has overachieved. Cooley, has made five of the past six NCAA Tournaments (with a 6th expected this past year). Again, with what is currently in the NBA, and in relation to NBA alumni of other programs, I'd say he overachieved too.
McDermott has quite a few (Patton, Thomas, McDermott, Alexander [this year]) in the NBA the past season or two. However, McDermott, including this year (which was supposed to be a top-seed), has made three of six NCAA Tournaments. I'd argue he has underachieved (but the outlook for next year is very, very promising). As previously stated, I'd also argue DePaul has immensely underachieved (they have a few players that have appeared in the NBA, not including Reed this year), yet haven't even made an NIT (let alone an NCAA).
Given Wojo's recruits, and only Henry really making the NBA thus far (Howard should as well), it's not a surprise as to why we haven't been consistently in the top-half of the BE (we look to be taking another step back next year).
Yes, this is one reason. They can be others as well. That's why I made the whole point.
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Which is not what your original list was consisting of.
Because those were Buzz recruits, not Wojo's.
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Also last time MU was below .500 we had multiple players that ended up playing in the NBA. Maybe NBA players aren't the best correlation.
Which means that team absolutely underachieved, for sure.
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In 2018, Andrew Rowsey shot 42% from the field, 41% from 3, 90% from the line and averaged 20.1 ppg.
In 2018 Lonnie Walker shot 41% from the field, 34% from 3, 73% from the line and averaged 11.5 ppg.
Which would you say was the better college player, which is currently in the NBA.
Yet another example of why looking at players that are currently in the NBA, as a metric for college level ability is at best very misleading.
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Here we go again.
Someone writes a critical article about Coach Wojo and we suddenly are bombarded with Projos and Nojos. C'mon folks, have we said anything that has not already been said in this debate? Is there anything new we have not debated until we're all ready to throw up? I don't think so.
For those of you who missed the bus, let me save you four more takes of repetitious debate:
1) Lots of people like Wojo and thinks he can get to Michigan by walking across the lake.
2) Lots of people think Daffy Duck or Hologram Al could do a better job coaching our beloved Warriors than Coach Wojo.
3) The Nojos think we should be a blue blood and many are of an age where we remember our beloved Warriors as one of the best teams in the nation.
4) The Projos think we are Marquette means we're a better than average program and that our disadvantages, like being in Milwaukee, having cold weather and our coeds not being on the cover of what now passes for Playboy, prevent us from being a blueblood.
5) Both Projos and Nojos think the Board of Trustees loves Coach Wojo.
There you have it. Did I miss anything?
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I mean, it's a discussion board where participation is optional.
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In 2018, Andrew Rowsey shot 42% from the field, 41% from 3, 90% from the line and averaged 20.1 ppg.
In 2018 Lonnie Walker shot 41% from the field, 34% from 3, 73% from the line and averaged 11.5 ppg.
Which would you say was the better college player, which is currently in the NBA.
Yet another example of why looking at players that are currently in the NBA, as a metric for college level ability is at best very misleading.
From those stats alone? Rowsey, easily.
However, Miami made the tournament that year (Marquette didn't). And, again, Walker is in the NBA, and Rowsey isn't/wasn't. Miami currently has three players in the NBA (Brown, Hernandez, Walker) with a few others (Mac, Reed) in the past few seasons. Miami, in that timeframe has a Sweet 16 and two other NCAA appearances. Coincidence?
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From those stats alone? Rowsey, easily.
However, Miami made the tournament that year (Marquette didn't). And, again, Walker is in the NBA, and Rowsey isn't/wasn't. Miami currently has three players in the NBA (Brown, Hernandez, Walker) with a few others (Mac, Reed) in the past few seasons. Miami, in that timeframe has a Sweet 16 and two other NCAA appearances. Coincidence?
That's not the point. The point is that there are plenty of great college players that weren't in the NBA last year, which is why your list is extremely misleading.
You never mentioned why I4 and USC haven't had the same level of success as Nova even though they currently have the same number of players in the NBA.
Mizzou would get a spot on your list because of Michael Porter, what did he do for them? Memphis is about to get another spot on your list because of James Wiseman, what did he do for them? UNC has another tally from Nassir Little, who never started a game and averaged less than 20 mpg. Deondre Jordan averaged 8 points, 4 boards, and 20 mpg in college, that's not exactly spectacular for a future 3 time All-NBA player.
The point is that while looking at NBA talent produced can be a tool, calculating collegiate success is not "as simple as" just looking at the number of players that a University has put in the NBA.
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5) Both Projos and Nojos think the Board of Trustees loves Coach Wojo.
There you have it. Did I miss anything?
I'm not on the BoT but my understanding is they like, not love, Wojo. He checks all the boxes except W's & L's. We are 1 year away from another "extend or cut bait" situation for a reason.
Ooops! I forgot, MU has no money to payout Wojo so they will let him stay till the end of his contract (and that will do wonders for his recruiting). Plus, there are no viable coaches who will take the MU job. ::)
Horizon League, here we come!
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I'm not on the BoT but my understanding is they like, not love, Wojo. He checks all the boxes except W's & L's. We are 1 year away from another "extend or cut bait" situation for a reason.
Ooops! I forgot, MU has no money to payout Wojo so they will let him stay till the end of his contract (and that will do wonders for his recruiting). Plus, there are no viable coaches who will take the MU job. ::)
Horizon League, here we come!
There's another option besides "extend" or "cut bait." There's "extend and renegotiate the buyout."
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That's not the point. The point is that there are plenty of great college players that weren't in the NBA last year, which is why your list is extremely misleading.
You never mentioned why I4 and USC haven't had the same level of success as Nova even though they currently have the same number of players in the NBA.
Mizzou would get a spot on your list because of Michael Porter, what did he do for them? Memphis is about to get another spot on your list because of James Wiseman, what did he do for them? UNC has another tally from Nassir Little, who never started a game and averaged less than 20 mpg. Deondre Jordan averaged 8 points, 4 boards, and 20 mpg in college, that's not exactly spectacular for a future 3 time All-NBA player.
The point is that while looking at NBA talent produced can be a tool, calculating collegiate success is not "as simple as" just looking at the number of players that a University has put in the NBA.
I'll happily mention both IU and USC. They have both clearly underachieved, given their talent. They are getting talented players into the program consistently, and they aren't meeting program expectations. Nasir Little's UNC team also had Coby White and Cameron Johnson as present NBA players (with Luke Maye and Kenny Williams as future call-ups as well). DeAndre Jordan's 2008 A&M team made the tournament and even won a game (and he's also had teammates play professionally).
Wiseman didn't even make it through his first semester. Porter obviously is another one due to injury. Neither contributed to their program's ability, or inability, to have a successful season and/or make the tournament. I wouldn't chalk either up to use an example in any case.
No, it's not simple (I never argued it was) - but it is definitely relatable with overwhelming amounts of data.
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MU should finish top 3-4 every year. That's not having unrealistic explanations, that's not embellishing or asking for too much. That's just reality a program like MU's should be top 3-4 every year in conference.
The problem with this kind of thinking is that it ignores the fact that there are probably 9 (and now 10) other Big East teams setting the same goals, same expectations, same level of investment, same program history, etc.
What specific advantage do you think we have that would make us perpetually better than those other programs? 15 years ago the Al first opened, it was an advantage. Now that every other Big East program is investing in equivalent facilities, it's just table stakes. Villanova, Butler, Georgetown, St. Johns, DePaul, UConn Seton Hall, and Providence all have Final Four banners hanging in their gyms--why do you think a recruit would care more about our banner than theirs?
Realistic expectations in THIS version of the Big East, with the relative equivalence in investment, facilities, history, etc, its more like all teams will average is a top 4 finish once every 3 years--and that includes MU.
Until Wright retires, Villanova is the only team that should have expectations to make the top 4 every year, and until they get a new AD, DePaul won't be expected to perform at that level.
Otherwise, you have 9 roughly equal programs with equal desires that will compete for the other 3 available top 4 finishes every year.
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There's another option besides "extend" or "cut bait." There's "extend and renegotiate the buyout."
Serious question. What is the school's buyout? My understanding is that the school has to pay the remainder of the contract. (All my employment contracts worked that way). Not really a "buyout" just fulfilling the contractual obligation.
Are coaches agreeing to contracts that allow the school out at a lower amount than the contract calls for? (I know this is sometimes negotiated at terminations but didn't think so in the contract) Seems like a request that will piss-off the coach and get him looking for another job ASAP.
I'm no expert but I've only heard of the employee or coach paying the buyout.
Plus the bigger, and original question/assertion, is why is MU having to go through another renegotiation in just two years? If the BoT "loved him" this should be an every 5 year process. If I loved my coach I'd lock him up and give him a meaningful raise.
My understanding is they "like him" not "love him".
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I'll happily mention both IU and USC. They have both clearly underachieved, given their talent. They are getting talented players into the program consistently, and they aren't meeting program expectations. Nasir Little's UNC team also had Coby White and Cameron Johnson as present NBA players (with Luke Maye and Kenny Williams as future call-ups as well). DeAndre Jordan's 2008 A&M team made the tournament and even won a game (and he's also had teammates play professionally).
Wiseman didn't even make it through his first semester. Porter obviously is another one due to injury. Neither contributed to their program's ability, or inability, to have a successful season and/or make the tournament. I wouldn't chalk either up to use an example in any case.
No, it's not simple (I never argued it was) - but it is definitely relatable with overwhelming amounts of data.
You most certainly did.
To me, I think it is as simple as just looking at the Big East in terms of players that played in the NBA this past year.
Want another example? Chris Mack, generally thought of as better than Wojo in every regard (especially around here). Let's compare the talent that they put in the NBA. Mack gets Sumner and is about to get Nwora, (who gets the Juan caveat because he inherited him). So in a few months time they'll both have put 2 in the NBA. Yes, Mack is a better coach, yes he has had better results, but basing it on your
To me, I think it is as simple as just looking at the Big East in terms of players that played in the NBA this past year.
he's even with Wojo because they both had 1 NBA player last year and will have 2 next year.
Again, you can use NBA talent produced as a tool to measure success, but it is not the only tool, which means that it's not
as simple as just looking at the Big East in terms of players that played in the NBA this past year.
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The problem with this kind of thinking is that it ignores the fact that there are probably 9 (and now 10) other Big East teams setting the same goals, same expectations, same level of investment, same program history, etc.
What specific advantage do you think we have that would make us perpetually better than those other programs? 15 years ago the Al first opened, it was an advantage. Now that every other Big East program is investing in equivalent facilities, it's just table stakes. Villanova, Butler, Georgetown, St. Johns, DePaul, UConn Seton Hall, and Providence all have Final Four banners hanging in their gyms--why do you think a recruit would care more about our banner than theirs?
Realistic expectations in THIS version of the Big East, with the relative equivalence in investment, facilities, history, etc, its more like all teams will average is a top 4 finish once every 3 years--and that includes MU.
Until Wright retires, Villanova is the only team that should have expectations to make the top 4 every year, and until they get a new AD, DePaul won't be expected to perform at that level.
Otherwise, you have 9 roughly equal programs with equal desires that will compete for the other 3 available top 4 finishes every year.
Well just off the top of my head a few would be: Do other schools in the BE have a private jet available to them for recruiting??(I don't know that answer), what MU spends on basketball is greater than the other schools in the BE, and you only cite the AL, but what about the new sports science facility that they have now, I can be almost 100% certain no one else has that. That's not even mentioning the fact that they play in a state of the art NBA arena, players have access to NBA players like Giannis etc, and on top of that, what other school in the BE(with the exception of Nova) can lay claim to having recent or current popular NBA players like D Wade, Jimmy Butler and Jae Crowder as alums?? That's just a few things, I'm sure I can come up with more..but again, give nthose things in and of itself, there is no reason MU shouldn't be a top 3-4 team in the Big East consistently.
The one thing that would really elevate them and push them over the top(even nationally) is state of the art dorms for the players. They had the chance to get those and Lovell slow played it and it got taken off the table. That could end up being one of the worst decisions for the MU program in history.
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You most certainly did.
My opinion was what I was referring to as simple (as I prefaced by saying, "to me"). What's not simple was the notion my opinion was the only reason/effect as to why our program was not meeting expectations - as, originally stated (and conveniently left out) was there can be many debates on this larger subject.
You clearly disagree with my observation, which is fine. No reason to continue going back and forth when it clearly will not lead anywhere.
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My opinion was what I was referring to as simple (as I prefaced by saying, "to me"). What's not simple was the notion my opinion was the only reason/effect as to why our program was not meeting expectations - as, originally stated (and conveniently left out) was there can be many debates on this larger subject.
You clearly disagree with my observation, which is fine. No reason to continue going back and forth when it clearly will not lead anywhere.
Sorry for interpreting your words as you wrote them?
This was not meant to be a back-and-forth, and in some ways I understand your point. The programs that produce the most NBA talent will have the most NCAA success. To some degree this is true; you presented the data point of Nova, there is also Duke, Kentucky and other BB. If you were to just look at this data, that's a fair assumption to draw. But when you look at all the data, of both teams that have produced a lot of NBA talent with little NCAA success (USC, I4 etc.) as well as the teams that have produced little NBA talent but with much NCAA success (Madison), as well as the seemingly random data points (CJ McCollum at Lehigh, Damian Lillard at Weber State, Steph at Davidson, Paul George Fresno State, Kawhi SDSU) I think it becomes much harder to draw the same conclusion.
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:o :o :o :o :o :o
3 out of 7 years at MU is not good. It's a failure. This isn't 1989 Marquette. This is a Marquette that made the tournament (starting from 2001) 10 out of 13 times. Wojo has already missed that mark as many times in 6 years.
3 out of 7 years, but it is also 3 out of 4 years. Why did you purposely choose the less recent stat?
Let's turn the tables on your 10 of 13 you stated above - why don't we use your fact pattern and make that 10 of 17? Both are accurate. ::)
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3 out of 7 years, but it is also 3 out of 4 years. Why did you purposely choose the less recent stat?
Let's turn the tables on your 10 of 13 you stated above - why don't we use your fact pattern and make that 10 of 17? Both are accurate. ::)
Why are you celebrating being one of the last auto bids 2 of those 4 years?
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Why are you celebrating being one of the last auto bids 2 of those 4 years?
Factually speaking Wojo is under .500 in the Big East & 0 tournament wins entering year 7
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Well just off the top of my head a few would be: Do other schools in the BE have a private jet available to them for recruiting??(I don't know that answer), what MU spends on basketball is greater than the other schools in the BE, and you only cite the AL, but what about the new sports science facility that they have now, I can be almost 100% certain no one else has that. That's not even mentioning the fact that they play in a state of the art NBA arena, players have access to NBA players like Giannis etc, and on top of that, what other school in the BE(with the exception of Nova) can lay claim to having recent or current popular NBA players like D Wade, Jimmy Butler and Jae Crowder as alums?? That's just a few things, I'm sure I can come up with more..but again, give nthose things in and of itself, there is no reason MU shouldn't be a top 3-4 team in the Big East consistently.
The one thing that would really elevate them and push them over the top(even nationally) is state of the art dorms for the players. They had the chance to get those and Lovell slow played it and it got taken off the table. That could end up being one of the worst decisions for the MU program in history.
Lovell. No comprehension of MU basketball history. No understanding of Marquette basketball importance on so many fronts. Is he a fan? Sure. Does he want wins? Sure. But does Lovell ‘get it’. Probably not. Lovell ain’t Father Wild. Nope.
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Factually speaking Wojo is under .500 in the Big East & 0 tournament wins entering year 7
Nope, Chicos says you have to throw out his first year as though it never happened, and you can't count it against Wojo because of what Buzz left him, and so Wojo is above .500 technically according to Chicos. ?-(
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I put transfers pretty far down on my list of concerns I have about Wojo. Transfers could be dealt with if I thought he was a better in-game coach.
bingo!
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Nope, Chicos says you have to throw out his first year as though it never happened, and you can't count it against Wojo because of what Buzz left him, and so Wojo is above .500 technically according to Chicos. ?-(
Yep sterling marks of two conference seasons below .500 one .500 record, one season one game above .500 and a season with a choked away regular season conference title.
But don’t count his first season - It’ll make him look bad!
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In 2018, Andrew Rowsey shot 42% from the field, 41% from 3, 90% from the line and averaged 20.1 ppg.
In 2018 Lonnie Walker shot 41% from the field, 34% from 3, 73% from the line and averaged 11.5 ppg.
Which would you say was the better college player, which is currently in the NBA.
Yet another example of why looking at players that are currently in the NBA, as a metric for college level ability is at best very misleading.
Prior to Covid, Rowsey was on the verge of getting called up for a cup of coffee in the NBA. He was having an incredible season in the G League. Was shooting 48 percent from the NBA 3 line, 59 percent EFG and 94 percent from the line. 20 points per game.
Hopefully he can keep up the momentum when basketball restarts.
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Prior to Covid, Rowsey was on the verge of getting called up for a cup of coffee in the NBA. He was having an incredible season in the G League. Was shooting 48 percent from the NBA 3 line, 59 percent EFG and 94 percent from the line. 20 points per game.
Hopefully he can keep up the momentum when basketball restarts.
Rowsey played well in the G League, but that doesn't mean he was on the verge of a call-up. Vander was one of the best G League players for years, how often did he get called up?
Big G League numbers are not at all an indication of an impending call-up.
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Semantics...but regardless, he has a less than stellar BE record. Again, MU should finish top 3-4 every year. That's not having unrealistic explanations, that's not embellishing or asking for too much. That's just reality a program like MU's should be top 3-4 every year in conference.
If only sports were so predictable. First year records count, they are also impacted by what is in the cupboard and whether the players left fit your coaching philosophy. I am not ignoring his first year, but find it intellectually dishonest of someone not to mention they aren’t his guys.
For some reason Al McGuire’s worst year at Marquette was his first when he took over a bad team. Probably just a coincidence and semantics. Those losses still counted against Al’s record as do Wojo’s, but I believe most reasonable people understand the impacts of transition years. Can you imagine MU Scoop after 1967? Al has been here two years and his overall record is 22-30. The details should matter, it isn’t as black and white as you and others want to make it.
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If only sports were so predictable. First year records count, they are also impacted by what is in the cupboard and whether the players left fit your coaching philosophy. I am not ignoring his first year, but find it intellectually dishonest of someone not to mention they aren’t his guys.
For some reason Al McGuire’s worst year at Marquette was his first when he took over a bad team. Probably just a coincidence and semantics. Those losses still counted against Al’s record as do Wojo’s, but I believe most reasonable people understand the impacts of transition years. Can you imagine MU Scoop after 1967? Al has been here two years and his overall record is 22-30. The details should matter, it isn’t as black and white as you and others want to make it.
What did Al do in year 7?
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What did Al do in year 7?
great comparison. I mean, the landscape is exactly the same today as it was back then.
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I disagree with this completely, player development is a huge issue. Markus didn't develop with Wojo, he developed because his brothers pushed him and trained him.
Maybe the players that are not developing, because they are not working hard enough or some cases they have peaked. I do not see how Morrow was ever going to develop a jump shot. He worked on it all summer, but I not sure he even took one in a game this year.
Every coach tells his players what they need to work on to improve their game in the off season. Coaches do not develop players. The players have to do that. However, I think it is important to recruit players that can be developed.
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Well just off the top of my head a few would be: Do other schools in the BE have a private jet available to them for recruiting??(I don't know that answer), what MU spends on basketball is greater than the other schools in the BE, and you only cite the AL, but what about the new sports science facility that they have now, I can be almost 100% certain no one else has that. That's not even mentioning the fact that they play in a state of the art NBA arena, players have access to NBA players like Giannis etc, and on top of that, what other school in the BE(with the exception of Nova) can lay claim to having recent or current popular NBA players like D Wade, Jimmy Butler and Jae Crowder as alums?? That's just a few things, I'm sure I can come up with more..but again, give nthose things in and of itself, there is no reason MU shouldn't be a top 3-4 team in the Big East consistently.
The one thing that would really elevate them and push them over the top(even nationally) is state of the art dorms for the players. They had the chance to get those and Lovell slow played it and it got taken off the table. That could end up being one of the worst decisions for the MU program in history.
These are nice barroom arguments, but hardly difference makers between programs at the Big East level. Maybe if you're comparing us versus a mid- or low-major, but none of these stand out as difference makers for any other program.
Fact is that no program in the Big East lacks sufficient recruiting resources. To suggest that we have a recruiting advantage because we have a jet for Wojo is laughable. Just try to show some proof that some other BE program can't recruit because they don't have the budget to do so.
Budgets have been discussed here numerous times that you can't compare our budget versus other schools, because you don't know how common expenses are allocated at MU versus any other school.
Players don't care about academic research programs at the school--they care about the actual programs the athletic department can deliver. MU's sports science program means nothing in terms of quality of care players will get versus other schools.
As I said, MU has no demonstrable advantage over what are largely peer-level programs, all with long histories of success, championship banners and trophies of their own, all with just as much money to invest thanks to NCAA Tournament and TV payouts, all with home court and home town advantages, all with famous alumni they can leverage. MU has no more of a permanent claim to a top 3 spot than any other program in the conference.
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Serious question. What is the school's buyout? My understanding is that the school has to pay the remainder of the contract. (All my employment contracts worked that way). Not really a "buyout" just fulfilling the contractual obligation.
Are coaches agreeing to contracts that allow the school out at a lower amount than the contract calls for? (I know this is sometimes negotiated at terminations but didn't think so in the contract) Seems like a request that will piss-off the coach and get him looking for another job ASAP.
I'm no expert but I've only heard of the employee or coach paying the buyout.
Plus the bigger, and original question/assertion, is why is MU having to go through another renegotiation in just two years? If the BoT "loved him" this should be an every 5 year process. If I loved my coach I'd lock him up and give him a meaningful raise.
My understanding is they "like him" not "love him".
I think buyouts are mostly in the coaches favor. Wojo might have to pay MU $xxx dollars, if he left for Duke. Generally, schools have to pay coaches they fire. However, ontracts generally have a clause that allows them to terminate the contract if the coach commits a violation.
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Prior to Covid, Rowsey was on the verge of getting called up for a cup of coffee in the NBA. He was having an incredible season in the G League. Was shooting 48 percent from the NBA 3 line, 59 percent EFG and 94 percent from the line. 20 points per game.
Hopefully he can keep up the momentum when basketball restarts.
I will still argue that getting a 10 day contract does not make you an NBA player.
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What did Al do in year 7?
Al was able to identify with inter city black players at a time when a lot of schools did not want to. I loved Al, but I do not think he would automatically make MU great again, if he magically reappeared.
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Al was able to identify with inter city black players at a time when a lot of schools did not want to. I loved Al, but I do not think he would automatically make MU great again, if he magically reappeared.
This is a bad take. Great coaches find their thing and get it done. He was one of them. Just because we understand how he did it does not diminish the genius.
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What did Al do in year 7?
You want the honest answer?
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Al was able to identify with inter city black players at a time when a lot of schools did not want to. I loved Al, but I do not think he would automatically make MU great again, if he magically reappeared.
Al was a great leader of young men. He used his leadership skills to Recruit great players and motivate them to maximize their talent within a team concept. I think those personal attributes would generate success in any era of sports .
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You want the honest answer?
I have the internet. It was more of what I like to call a rhetorical question.
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Al was a great leader of young men. He used his leadership skills to Recruit great players and motivate them to maximize their talent within a team concept. I think those personal attributes would generate success in any era of sports .
I never said he would not be successful. I did mean he probably would not win another NCAA title, which is what posters really want.
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I have the internet. It was more of what I like to call a rhetorical question.
You won’t get the honest answer from the internet.
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Why are you celebrating being one of the last auto bids 2 of those 4 years?
One of the last auto bids? Can we get a Twitter fact checker here.
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You won’t get the honest answer from the internet.
Lol
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As others have mentioned, I don't think the rate of transfers/exits is a huge concern.
What is concerning to me, however, is how many of these departures seem to come as total and complete shocks (to us and, from what we can see, to Wojo). That leaves Wojo flat-footed with his dumb a$$ thousand yard stare scrambling to find some last minute band aid. I don't follow other programs closely enough to really compare, but I feel like the norm elsewhere is that transfers/exits are usually pretty well anticipated. I mean did anyone, anywhere on this board write that they thought BB was going to leave? Did anyone contemplate Hausershima? Did anyone predict Ed was going to hang them up?
Again, I don't know what inkling Wojo had of these, but if he didn't it suggests he doesn't have much of a clue what's going on with his guys and that's a big problem.
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the nature of college basketball has deeply changed. With one & done ending there will be still more changes. How things will change...ask me in 5 years...
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Concerns about Wojo: Scheme. In game adjustments.
Not concerns about Wojo: Player development, transfers.
Player development is most definitely a concern.
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As others have mentioned, I don't think the rate of transfers/exits is a huge concern.
What is concerning to me, however, is how many of these departures seem to come as total and complete shocks (to us and, from what we can see, to Wojo). That leaves Wojo flat-footed with his dumb a$$ thousand yard stare scrambling to find some last minute band aid. I don't follow other programs closely enough to really compare, but I feel like the norm elsewhere is that transfers/exits are usually pretty well anticipated. I mean did anyone, anywhere on this board write that they thought BB was going to leave? Did anyone contemplate Hausershima? Did anyone predict Ed was going to hang them up?
Again, I don't know what inkling Wojo had of these, but if he didn't it suggests he doesn't have much of a clue what's going on with his guys and that's a big problem.
I don't think any of the exits you mentioned were a shock to Wojo. Honestly, the only departure that I think was a "shock" was Hausergate. Ed's minutes had dwindled down to nothing and was clearly third on the depth chart at the 5. Bailey is already ancient in professional basketball years and doesn't want to waste some of his prime years not getting paid. Hausergate definitely falls into the realm of shocking.
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I don't think any of the exits you mentioned were a shock to Wojo. Honestly, the only departure that I think was a "shock" was Hausergate. Ed's minutes had dwindled down to nothing and was clearly third on the depth chart at the 5. Bailey is already ancient in professional basketball years and doesn't want to waste some of his prime years not getting paid. Hausergate definitely falls into the realm of shocking.
agreed. It isn't Wojo's fault Morrow quit during the season. In fact, that was a situation that could have had a negative effect on the team and it did not.
I will blame Wojo for the Hauser's because he could have handled things differently and kept them around.
There are often strong underlying reasons for a transfer we never know about and don't need to know about and there's nothing a coach can do that can change the decision. There's also times where coaches want a kid to transfer and they don't.