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Author Topic: Sweden?  (Read 57539 times)

MarquetteDano

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #375 on: July 29, 2020, 05:07:45 PM »

Point taken. Either way, the US and Sweden are both running the race in the wrong direction.

Yes.  Sorry.  Was snarky.  Just depressing knowing how poorly we have handled this.

Pakuni

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #376 on: July 29, 2020, 09:41:15 PM »


Take a breath, count to 10 and compose your thoughts, Cheeks, cause this make zero sense.

pacearrow02

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #377 on: July 29, 2020, 10:15:23 PM »
Take a breath, count to 10 and compose your thoughts, Cheeks, cause this make zero sense.

You’re right that was not a well worded post.  Was in a rush to get to kids baseball practice.

What is the cheeks stuff?

Lennys Tap

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #378 on: July 30, 2020, 12:35:20 PM »
Is it true that the Nordic countries (who are by and large doing very well vs COVID) are virtually mask free? If so, is there any explanation that makes sense?

Hards Alumni

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #379 on: July 30, 2020, 01:29:08 PM »
Is it true that the Nordic countries (who are by and large doing very well vs COVID) are virtually mask free? If so, is there any explanation that makes sense?

I read that article this morning as well.  It's a great question. 

My guess is that because they took the lock downs seriously early on.  They smothered the fire... whereas in the US we never really did that.  We put a blanket on the fire to smother it.. and it didn't work and now our blanket is on fire.

In more technical terms, the R0 in the Nordic countries was reduced to under 1 for long enough to 'reset' the starting point of the virus.  Whereas in the US the R0 never got low enough to postpone our outbreak for more than a week or two. 

My guess is that if numbers continue to rise in those countries you will see mask mandates.

tower912

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #380 on: July 30, 2020, 01:49:40 PM »
Is it true that the Nordic countries (who are by and large doing very well vs COVID) are virtually mask free? If so, is there any explanation that makes sense?
They did the work throughout their countries to bring it under control.   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

GooooMarquette

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #381 on: July 30, 2020, 01:50:24 PM »
I read that article this morning as well.  It's a great question. 

My guess is that because they took the lock downs seriously early on.  They smothered the fire... whereas in the US we never really did that.  We put a blanket on the fire to smother it.. and it didn't work and now our blanket is on fire.

In more technical terms, the R0 in the Nordic countries was reduced to under 1 for long enough to 'reset' the starting point of the virus.  Whereas in the US the R0 never got low enough to postpone our outbreak for more than a week or two. 

My guess is that if numbers continue to rise in those countries you will see mask mandates.

Spot on. I believe they have also been very selective in letting people from other places in. My understanding is that Norway still isn't letting residents of many EU nations in...much less people from other parts of the world.

Uncle Rico

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #382 on: July 30, 2020, 02:41:24 PM »
Is it true that the Nordic countries (who are by and large doing very well vs COVID) are virtually mask free? If so, is there any explanation that makes sense?

In many of the articles I’ve read about Sweden, even without a lockdown, the citizens still took it serious and did the requisite social distancing.  I’m not sure about mask usage but they did take some steps to lessen the blow. 
“This is bar none atrocious.  Mitchell cannot shoot either.  What a pile of dung”

GooooMarquette

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #383 on: July 30, 2020, 03:29:33 PM »
In many of the articles I’ve read about Sweden, even without a lockdown, the citizens still took it serious and did the requisite social distancing.  I’m not sure about mask usage but they did take some steps to lessen the blow.

This is largely correct. Here is an article from NPR on April 26:

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/26/845211085/stockholm-expected-to-reach-herd-immunity-in-may-swedish-ambassador-says

Schools, restaurants and malls have remained open in Sweden. The government has issued social distancing guidelines, discouraged nonessential travel and recommended that people over 70 stay at home. Authorities also banned gatherings of more than 50 people, and visits to nursing homes are prohibited.

While the vast majority of Swedes approve of and follow the government's guidelines, reports suggest that Stockholm's residents have begun to break the rules as the weather gets warmer. The government swiftly responded by threatening to shut down any restaurant or bar that fails to implement adequate social distancing.


--------

As to the question of masks, no. Even today, the Swedish government's fact sheet mentions staying home if you're sick, social distancing, hand washing and covering your mouth if you cough...but it makes no mention of masks.

https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/the-public-health-agency-of-sweden/communicable-disease-control/protect-yourself-and-others-from-spread-of-infection/

tower912

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #384 on: August 20, 2020, 10:11:03 AM »
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

GooooMarquette

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #385 on: August 20, 2020, 01:48:12 PM »


Skatastrophy

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #387 on: August 27, 2020, 12:44:11 PM »
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/sweden-has-developed-herd-immunity-after-refusing-to-lock-down-experts-claim-its-coronavirus-infection-rate-is-falling-2020-08-24

Hmmmm.

So Sweden is at 30% immunity, according to their leading experts, though their measurements so far have put their immunity between 5% and 25%. And they need to get to around 70% according to the dude from the Mayo Clinic.

Some people, and groups of people, are allergic to admitting when they're wrong and changing course. Sweden is suffering from poor leadership during this COVID crisis just like Brazil, the US, China, and Russia.

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #388 on: August 30, 2020, 07:54:07 PM »

tower912

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #389 on: September 16, 2020, 11:07:27 AM »
Turns out that trying to get 'herd mentality' has been the plan all along.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

pacearrow02

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #390 on: September 16, 2020, 11:30:49 AM »
Turns out that trying to get 'herd mentality' has been the plan all along.

Of course it is, that’s what the vaccine will help do while limiting death and serious illness.  The whole time the goal was to Get to herd immunity as quickly and safely as possible.

cheebs09

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #391 on: September 16, 2020, 11:38:32 AM »
Of course it is, that’s what the vaccine will help do while limiting death and serious illness.  The whole time the goal was to Get to herd immunity as quickly and safely as possible.

Yea, but there’s different ways to get it. Lockdown and try and buy time for the vaccine to help provide that. Or cannonball into the pool, have people get infected and hopefully immune, and hope that accelerates the immunity.

Sweden did the latter and doesn’t seem to have really paid off.

jesmu84

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #392 on: September 16, 2020, 11:57:15 AM »
Of course it is, that’s what the vaccine will help do while limiting death and serious illness.  The whole time the goal was to Get to herd immunity as quickly and safely as possible.

That's not what Tower said

Skatastrophy

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #393 on: September 16, 2020, 12:51:17 PM »
Yea, but there’s different ways to get it. Lockdown and try and buy time for the vaccine to help provide that. Or cannonball into the pool, have people get infected and hopefully immune, and hope that accelerates the immunity.

Sweden did the latter and doesn’t seem to have really paid off.

Half of the United States did the latter, screwing up our economy.

MU82

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #394 on: October 12, 2020, 08:53:50 AM »
Interesting NYT stuff on Sweden. I definitely learned a few things ...

+++

The White House event to celebrate Amy Coney Barrett’s Supreme Court nomination — a gathering that appears to have spread the coronavirus — would have violated the law in Sweden.

It was too large. More than 200 people attended the Barrett celebration. In Sweden, public events cannot include more than 50 people. Anyone who organizes a larger gathering is subject to a fine or up to six months in prison.

If you’ve been following the virus news out of Sweden, this fact may surprise you. Sweden has become notorious for its laissez-faire response. Its leaders refused to impose a lockdown in the spring, insisting that doing so was akin to “using a hammer to kill a fly.” They also actively discouraged mask wearing.

Ever since, people in other countries who favor a more lax approach have held up Sweden as a model. Recently, as new cases have surged in other European countries, some of Sweden’s defenders have claimed vindication.

How are you supposed to make sense of all this? Several readers have asked me that question, and the answers point to some lessons for fighting the virus. I think there are three key ones from Sweden:

1. It is not a success story.

Over all, Sweden’s decision to let many activities continue unabated and its hope that growing immunity to the virus would protect people does not look good. The country has suffered more than five times as many deaths per capita as neighboring Denmark and about 10 times as many as Finland or Norway.

“It was a terrible idea to do what they did,” Janet Baseman, an epidemiologist at the University of Washington, told me.



2. But Sweden did more than some people realize.

It closed schools for students ages 16 and older. It encouraged residents to keep their distance from one another. And it imposed the ban on big gatherings, which looks especially smart now.

Compared with other viruses, this one seems especially likely to spread in clusters. Many infected people don’t infect a single other person, while “as few as 10 to 20 percent of infected people may be responsible for as much as 80 to 90 percent of transmission,” The Atlantic’s Zeynep Tufekci has explained.

Given this, it’s less surprising that Sweden’s recent virus performance looks mediocre rather than horrible.



3. Swedish officials have been right to worry about “sustainability.”

Strict lockdowns bring their own steep costs for society. With a vaccine at least months away, societies probably need to grapple with how to restart activities while minimizing risk.

Sweden’s leaders do not seem to have found the ideal strategy, but they are asking a reasonable question. “We see a disease that we’re going to have to handle for a long time,” Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s top epidemiologist, told The Financial Times, “and we need to build up systems for doing that.”

The fact that Sweden is no longer an extreme outlier in new virus cases — even as life there looks more normal than in most places — offers a new opportunity to assess risk.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Warriors4ever

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #395 on: October 12, 2020, 09:04:09 AM »
I am curious to know why Sweden discouraged mask-wearing.
The idea that Sweden did nothing still persists. And they suffered an awful rate of care-home deaths early on, as I read that their policy did not allow those patients at the time to be transferred to hospitals.

MU82

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #396 on: October 12, 2020, 09:48:26 AM »
NM
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Pakuni

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #397 on: November 16, 2020, 10:45:24 PM »
Sweden no longer wants to be like Sweden.

@ScottGottliebMD: Sweden has banned gatherings of more than 8 people as a second wave of coronavirus continues to grow. "Don't go to gyms, don't go to libraries, don't host dinners. Cancel," Swedish Prime Minister Lofven said. https://news.trust.org/item/20201116135516-ilta9/ https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1328523632583307267/photo/1

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #398 on: November 17, 2020, 07:17:54 AM »
Sweden no longer wants to be like Sweden.

@ScottGottliebMD: Sweden has banned gatherings of more than 8 people as a second wave of coronavirus continues to grow. "Don't go to gyms, don't go to libraries, don't host dinners. Cancel," Swedish Prime Minister Lofven said. https://news.trust.org/item/20201116135516-ilta9/ https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1328523632583307267/photo/1
ChicosDad disagrees with this approach--herd immunity or bust!
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Sweden?
« Reply #399 on: November 17, 2020, 12:40:43 PM »
From Paul Krugman/NYT (the source itself being enough to send guru et al into an apoplectic rage):

"One of the odder twists in the terrible saga of America’s failed Covid-19 response was the way the Trump administration and many U.S. conservatives fell briefly in love with Sweden. Yes, that Sweden, where universal health care is mostly provided directly by the government, where taxes take 44 percent of G.D.P. compared with just 24 percent here, where two-thirds of the work force is unionized.

"Most of the time, in other words, Sweden is an example of everything conservatives hate; its very existence is a rebuttal to their claims that low taxes and harsh treatment of the poor are essential to prosperity.

But in this year of Covid, Sweden chose a different path from other European countries. Where its neighbors were imposing lockdowns to limit the spread of the coronavirus, Sweden chose to follow a strategy of “herd immunity” — letting the virus spread in the belief that once enough people had been infected and developed antibodies, the pandemic would burn out of its own accord."

<snip>

"I do know that the U.S. right seized on the Swedish example, because the Swedes were doing what they themselves wanted to do about the coronavirus — nothing."

<snip>

So it was with Sweden’s pandemic response. Conservatives — most notably Dr. Scott Atlas, the not-an-epidemiologist from the Hoover Institution who has become Donald Trump’s main coronavirus adviser — rushed to embrace the Swedish model. Atlas was praising Sweden as recently as late last month.

Meanwhile, however, the Swedes themselves are tacitly admitting that they made a terrible mistake."

<snip>

"Then the fall came, and Sweden is in fact having a second wave — much worse than the wave in its neighbors. And on Monday the nation imposed substantial new restrictions on public gatherings, although it’s still balking at a broader lockdown.

Unfortunately, I don’t think the failure of the Swedish model will change many minds here. As some wag put it, the modern U.S. right doesn’t believe in evidence-based policy, it believes in policy-based evidence: seizing on or, if necessary, inventing facts that seem to support what it wants to do anyway."
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.