COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")

[Lennys Tap]

This was just explained in multiple other posts.

Dumb explanations for a dumb policy.

[forgetful]

If you can explain to me how not allowing fisherman on lakes in boats with motors would have saved any of those lives I'll gladly change my opinion. I don't think the two have anything to do with one another.

It was enacted because people across the entire state were using boating to willfully violate the social distancing guidelines, both on recreational boats, and at boat landings. That willful violation of the social distancing guidelines was going to cost lives.

She then put a blanket order out banning motorized recreational vehicle use, to cut down on this, as it is easier to police a blanket shutdown, than trying to police specific aspects.

It was untenable, so they quickly carved out exceptions for fishing.

To me it seems like a person over-reacting, in an effort to save lives (it would have saved lives). Then realizing an error, taking ownership of that error, and changing the policy. Could she have handled it better, yeah, but at least she changed the mistake. I give her a B/B-, in her handling of this.

Isn't that how we want leaders to lead? Take ownership and correct actions when they make a mistake in a crisis? And to err on the side of saving lives if they are going to make a mistake?

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Yes we do.  We also know that people will catch this no matter what we do.  We need a system to detect spread and immunity, methods to slow it down, and mechanisms to ensure our hospital system doesn't get overwhelmed.

While I dont agree with the decision to hold an election, we can learn that maybe there is somewhere in between lock it down and the old days utilizing a better system once the virus is in control in some places.

I'm definitely not disagreeing that we shouldn't learn something from a bad decision. I'm saying that the fact that we may be able to learn something doesn't mean it wasn't an absolutely horrendous decision.  It doesn't change that.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Dumb explanations for a dumb policy.

Nope. Logical explanations for an understandable policy. Unfortunately you have to limit the ability of stupid people to do stupid things.  Sad but true.

[pbiflyer]

If you can explain to me how not allowing fisherman on lakes in boats with motors would have saved any of those lives I'll gladly change my opinion. I don't think the two have anything to do with one another.

Florida boats raft up during the shutdown:


Lakes in Michigan (not during the lockdown)

[The Sultan]

Exposing the general public to the realities of the virus and what people are dealing with to fight it may reframe the discussion around what's important, and maybe even introduce the protestors to a little perspective. That's definitely helpful.

But that's not what she is trying to do.  She is trying to shame those who are upset about the restrictions.  Using phrases like "first world problems" is going to cause people to roll their eyes, not change their behavior.  Because as Lenny pointed out, unless those cases are linked in some ways to boating or to a second home, it's not all that relevant to what people are upset about.

[Hards Alumni]

Isn't a pretty simple solution to this problem saying that no more than two people in a boat and they must be immediate family members?  Anyone caught with any sort of flotilla godzilla situation will be fined heavily, have their fishing license revoked, and boat registration suspended for 3 years?

Look, people are going to do stupid things no matter what.  Better to incentivize them to not do stupid things, but allow them to do reasonable things.  Like fish in a motor boat with another person from their family.  Which is perfectly safe.

[Pakuni]

Isn't a pretty simple solution to this problem saying that no more than two people in a boat and they must be immediate family members?  Anyone caught with any sort of flotilla godzilla situation will be fined heavily, have their fishing license revoked, and boat registration suspended for 3 years?

Look, people are going to do stupid things no matter what.  Better to incentivize them to not do stupid things, but allow them to do reasonable things.  Like fish in a motor boat with another person from their family.  Which is perfectly safe.

That sounds perfectly reasonable, but also difficult/impossible to enforce. I have to imagine law enforcement has more pressing things to do right now than count people on boats or ask for IDs to make sure they're co-habitating family members.

[Pakuni]

But that's not what she is trying to do.  She is trying to shame those who are upset about the restrictions.  Using phrases like "first world problems" is going to cause people to roll their eyes, not change their behavior.  Because as Lenny pointed out, unless those cases are linked in some ways to boating or to a second home, it's not all that relevant to what people are upset about.

Do you really believe boating restrictions and the inability to buy paint at Lowe's are what is motivating these protests?
And Gamergate was motivated by ethics in journalism.

[tower912]

Second home rationale:  Mayor's in Northern Michigan (not sherrifs) are begging people to not go up to their summer cabins right now.   Because the medical infrastructure is sized for the population of the year round residents and not the summer tourist population.   They don't want more people, asymptomatic but infected, or not presenting yet, flooding their groceries and creating a wave of infection they are ill-equipped to deal with.

I can make the case governor Gretchen has gone a little too far in small specific instances and has as yet shown a lack of flexibility.   You wanna argue for motorised fishing boats?  Ok.   Landscaping, construction?   Reasonable arguments.   But nobody is going to her with reasonable arguments.

The paradigm I have been referencing is this.   Gretchen is a strict mom of teenagers.   Her kids (the populace at large) were threatened and she grounded them all and confined them to their room.   When you threaten that mom or sit there and do nothing but whine and complain like entitled teenagers, she will dig in her heels and you will get nowhere.    The only thing that might work is non-critical, rational reasoning.   

She believes with every fiber of her being that she is taking steps to protect the citizens.   Make a rational, logical case for specific things and see what happens.

[The Sultan]

Do you really believe boating restrictions and the inability to buy paint at Lowe's are what is motivating these protests?

Tell her that then.  She was the one who brought the protestors up in the first place.

I simply think that telling the guy who is frustrated that he can't go fishing, but not proteting about it, isn't going to be persuaded by someone preaching at him that he has "first world problems." 

[StillAWarrior]

Isn't a pretty simple solution to this problem saying that no more than two people in a boat and they must be immediate family members?  Anyone caught with any sort of flotilla godzilla situation will be fined heavily, have their fishing license revoked, and boat registration suspended for 3 years?

Look, people are going to do stupid things no matter what.  Better to incentivize them to not do stupid things, but allow them to do reasonable things.  Like fish in a motor boat with another person from their family.  Which is perfectly safe.

Exactly.  This would not be "impossible to enforce" any more than telling people that they can only walk, run, kayak, canoe, etc. with people from their own household.  Actually, probably a lot easier to enforce than those other things.

[StillAWarrior]

I can make the case governor Gretchen has gone a little too far in small specific instances and has as yet shown a lack of flexibility.   You wanna argue for motorised fishing boats?  Ok.   Landscaping, construction?   Reasonable arguments.   But nobody is going to her with reasonable arguments.

This illustrates the best point:  we should not reflexively defend or criticize any of these politicians.  I think certain aspects of the Michigan order go too far.  I think other aspects are reasonable and necessary. But I think what we continue to see is that some people are attacking "that woman" just because Trump attacked her. And others are reflexively defending her just because Trump attacked her.

[Pakuni]

Tell her that then.  She was the one who brought the protestors up in the first place.

I simply think that telling the guy who is frustrated that he can't go fishing, but not proteting about it, isn't going to be persuaded by someone preaching at him that he has "first world problems."

I think you're incorrectly lumping in the "frustrated" with the protestors. I'm frustrated by many of the restrictions and even more frustrated with the negative consequences - including financial consequences - they're having on my life. This is a fair and reasonable response, one I imagine everyone is experiencing to one degree or another. And I don't think that's who she's addressing in her post.

Gathering in a large crowd during a pandemic to march on the state capitol because I'm frustrated over missing a few weeks of trout season is a stupid and unreasonable response. And if the best scientific minds in the world aren't going to persuade those people to behave better, I'm not sure why you would place the onus on a frustrated nurse. These people don't want to be persuaded and definitely won't be persuaded by being nice.

[tower912]

Exactly, SaW.   I don't think there is a perfect strategy right now.    I can easily make the case that some of Governor Gretchen's prohibitions go too far.  However, she is doing it from a perspective of social distancing is the only real tool she has right now.    So she put out a very thorough blanket policy.     It isn't perfect.   But, if I was in charge and tailored exactly as I see fit, it would not be perfect and there would still be Don't Tread on Me flags and Confederate flags being waved by people with AR 15's on their back.    And while they have the right to their opinion, I have the right to consider them bat-crap (appropriate considering the origin) crazy and ignore their opinion.   

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Sorry boys, it's your balls.

(Apologies if this has already been posted)

https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-04-18/do-testicles-make-men-more-vulnerable-to-coronavirus
A group of researchers led by an oncologist in New York and her mother, a microbiologist in Mumbai, has put forth a hypothesis it acknowledges is highly preliminary: that the testes may harbor the SARS-CoV-2 virus in men, providing it sanctuary from the immune system.

[Hards Alumni]

That sounds perfectly reasonable, but also difficult/impossible to enforce. I have to imagine law enforcement has more pressing things to do right now than count people on boats or ask for IDs to make sure they're co-habitating family members.

Well, they're certainly still out trying to catch speeders, so I imagine they have some time on their hands.  Very expensive penalties make it worth their time.

Tie a reward for reporting violators, or add security cameras to boat landings.  They'd be good to have anyway, and I'd be willing to bet they already exist in some of the more busy launches already.  Someone sees something, reports it, and footage can be brought up.

[forgetful]

Well, they're certainly still out trying to catch speeders, so I imagine they have some time on their hands.  Very expensive penalties make it worth their time.

Tie a reward for reporting violators, or add security cameras to boat landings.  They'd be good to have anyway, and I'd be willing to bet they already exist in some of the more busy launches already.  Someone sees something, reports it, and footage can be brought up.

The problem is there are a lot out there with nothing better to do than report people. Leading to a lot of wasted time and resources.

An example, a gym owner I know was reported twice, and police had to come out and investigate, for him personally going to his gym to get files. People saying the gym was open.

Bottom line, there is no perfect solution.

[Pakuni]

The problem is there are a lot out there with nothing better to do than report people. Leading to a lot of wasted time and resources.

An example, a gym owner I know was reported twice, and police had to come out and investigate, for him personally going to his gym to get files. People saying the gym was open.

Bottom line, there is no perfect solution.

A church near me was reported when someone drove by on a Sunday morning and saw the parking lot full of cars.
The church, since it's closed, is letting a car rental service store excess vehicles in its lot.

But hey, if allowing people to fish in motorized boats and buy paint at Home Depot will end the stupid protests, then we should do that. But it won't end the stupid protests because the stupid protests aren't about the restrictions any more than the birther movement was about the Constitution.

[The Sultan]

And if the best scientific minds in the world aren't going to persuade those people to behave better, I'm not sure why you would place the onus on a frustrated nurse.

I'm not placing the onus on her.  I said that posts like hers aren't helpful for futhering discussion.

[GooooMarquette]

Dumb explanations for a dumb policy.

Now you're letting the stress get to you.

You may not like my explanation, but it wasn't dumb, nor were the others you chose to ignore.

[GooooMarquette]

It's pretty amazing that people are ripping a post from an overworked and overwhelmed nurse, just because they can't go out on their boats.

Plenty of rational explanations have been given for the bans, and you can agree with them or not, because there is no answer that will make everyone happy. But criticizing a post from an overwhelmed nurse who is frantically trying to save lives? Just pathetic.

[The Sultan]

It's pretty amazing that people are ripping a post from an overworked and overwhelmed nurse, just because they can't go out on their boats.

Plenty of rational explanations have been given for the bans, and you can agree with them or not, because there is no answer that will make everyone happy. But criticizing a post from an overwhelmed nurse who is frantically trying to save lives? Just pathetic.

Who is doing that?

[Pakuni]

I'm not placing the onus on her.  I said that posts like hers aren't helpful for futhering discussion.

And yet here we are ...

[GooooMarquette]

Who is doing that?

Someone hacked into your account and said she wasn't being helpful, she was just causing people to roll their eyes, and such. Saying that a deadly serious post from a well-informed nurse isn't helpful and causes people to just roll their eyes is ripping the post.