MU Coaching Candidates

[willie warrior]

Years 2-6 = 20 wins per year.    No off-court issues.    I am pretty damn sure that if, in the next few years, the administration was promised 20-ish wins per year and no off-court issues, they would tell all the NoJo's to pound sand.

Tower has undoubtedly become the #1 Wojo Woofer, bar none. Live in it Tower, maybe in year 10 will Wpojo accomplish something.

[MUDPT]

Oats was on Goodman and Hummel's podcast last week and talked MU! When asked about being at a big time football school, he mentioned growing up in Wisconsin, at Marquette, basketball is the only thing they have for 12 months. At Alabama, he's the focus for 3 months and can kind of stay under the radar. Mentioned talking to Brad Stevens who was uncomfortable at Butler because she was the highest paid employee. Stevens told him that if he were to go back to college it would be at a big time football school for the same reasons (out of the spotlight). That could be lip service as I've heard lots of coaches say they don't want to be second fiddle in athletic departments.

Side note, the Goodman Hummel podcast is excellent. Willard, Danny Hurley and Oats have been guests probably with their northeast connections with Goodman.

[NickelDimer]

That's a legitimate point.

Many Scoopers think that after the 2018-19 season or 2019-20 season, Wojo already had produced bad enough results to be fired, so they assume that the administration must love Wojo unconditionally because he is still employed.

However, TAMU and a couple of others who rely on facts rather than emotion have produced data showing that only 1 (or maybe 2, I can't remember) P6 coaches have been fired with resumes similar to the one Wojo had after last season.

Great. And now it's proven to have been the wrong decision. Guess emotions should've driven the decision.

[tower912]

Of course we all want more.  More wins, tourney wins, etc.   Marquette has more pressing issues than whether scoop is pissed.

[Lennys Tap]

Years 2-6 = 20 wins per year.    No off-court issues.    I am pretty damn sure that if, in the next few years, the administration was promised 20-ish wins per year and no off-court issues, they would tell all the NoJo's to pound sand.

20-ish wins in this day and age is mediocre. Beat 7 cupcakes and go .500 (plus or minus one) against Power 6 teams (the lake you swim in). It's Providence 2.0. I guess to you and some others that equals success. Not for me.

[MU82]

Great. And now it's proven to have been the wrong decision. Guess emotions should've driven the decision.

I also think Marquette is a special place.

Alas, we merely operate our athletic program the way pretty every other P6 school has the last several decades.

Thank goodness, Scoop is here for all of us to vent.

[brewcity77]

Maybe, but the optics on that will be bad for MU. Rewarding a coach with mediocre results with millions of dollars while other university employees who do their job well are let go. Sounds like a PR nightmare.

I don't disagree, but a restructured deal is the only way to lower his buyout and make firing him more affordable in 2022. The optics would be bad, but it might be the easiest way to part ways.

[Shooter McGavin]

20-ish wins in this day and age is mediocre. Beat 7 cupcakes and go .500 (plus or minus one) against Power 6 teams (the lake you swim in). It's Providence 2.0. I guess to you and some others that equals success. Not for me.

Agreed Lenny,  bold leadership looks at this and cringes.  They then take steps to fix it.  MU basketball is the best advertisement for our school for undergrads.  Barring a miracle this season is another example of mediocrity.  That is a terrible result at Marquette. Financially it is a disaster.  I cannot believe it would not be recognized as such by the BOT.  I hung on as long as I could with Wojo and always hope I am wrong but he needs to go.  A well coached team would be a night and day difference with this talent. 

[NickelDimer]

I also think Marquette is a special place.

Alas, we merely operate our athletic program the way pretty every other P6 school has the last several decades.

Thank goodness, Scoop is here for all of us to vent.

Such a lame excuse for a lack of foresight. I mean extremely lame.

[JTBMU7]

I don't disagree, but a restructured deal is the only way to lower his buyout and make firing him more affordable in 2022. The optics would be bad, but it might be the easiest way to part ways.

Pretty much what Michigan did with Harbaugh this year fwiw...

[MU82]

Such a lame excuse for a lack of foresight. I mean extremely lame.

It's not an "excuse." It's simply a fact. Just because you don't like the fact, it doesn't make it less of a fact.

So your hypothesis is that even though not a single other D1 program would have fired its coach after finishing 2nd in the Big East and being a 5 seed, Marquette's administration should have had the foresight to do so? Okey dokey then.

Hey, I wish we had a better coach, too. But I have no power, no control. Neither do you. I choose not to  lose my shyte a dozen times a day on some interwebs site, but feel free to do what you have to do.

[NickelDimer]

It's not an "excuse." It's simply a fact. Just because you don't like the fact, it doesn't make it less of a fact.

So your hypothesis is that even though not a single other D1 program would have fired its coach after finishing 2nd in the Big East and being a 5 seed, Marquette's administration should have had the foresight to do so? Okey dokey then.

Hey, I wish we had a better coach, too. But I have no power, no control. Neither do you. I choose not to  lose my shyte a dozen times a day on some interwebs site, but feel free to do what you have to do.

Which part of what you're saying qualifies as a fact?

An inexcusable collapse followed by a humiliating first round annihilation topped by losing 2 of the 3 best players on a top 5 roster. Who's your P6 comp for that? Stop hiding behind this "yeah it was a mistake but everyone else would have done the same thing" excuse. A mistake is a mistake and keeping Wojo was a mistake full stop.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You do your best with the information you have available at the time. You can have whatever opinion you want, but the reality is no AD, even an AD at a blueblood, was ever going to fire Wojo after earning a 5 seed. It has literally never happened without criminal or NCAA violations being involved. You can call it a mistake and history may prove you right but it is not a reasonable expectation.

[The Sultan]

Which part of what you're saying qualifies as a fact?

An inexcusable collapse followed by a humiliating first round annihilation topped by losing 2 of the 3 best players on a top 5 roster. Who's your P6 comp for that? Stop hiding behind this "yeah it was a mistake but everyone else would have done the same thing" excuse. A mistake is a mistake and keeping Wojo was a mistake full stop.

Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest.

Anyway, here are a couple of comps.

The 2015-16 Baylor Bears.  They were 17-4 at one point and ranked in the top 15.  They finished the regular season 4-6, lost in the second round of the B12 tournament, and lost to a 12 seeded Yale in the first round.  Scott Drew...not fired.

The 2010-11 Vanderbilt Commodores.  They were ranked #18, tied for first in the SEC East, then lost three of four.  Lost to 12 seeded Richmond in the first round.  Kevin Stallings...not fired.

The 2013-14 Cincinnati Bearcats.  They were ranked #7 in the country.  Lost three of their last six.  Lost in the second round of the AAC tournament.  Lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament to 12 seeded Harvard.  Mick Cronin...not fired.

There are numerous other examples.

The fact is that these types of collapses and losses are pretty regular happenings.  Coaches don't get fired for them.  And no...there was zero chance they were going to fire Wojo after than AND just because two players transferred.

[CTWarrior]

Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest.

Anyway, here are a couple of comps.

The 2015-16 Baylor Bears.  They were 17-4 at one point and ranked in the top 15.  They finished the regular season 4-6, lost in the second round of the B12 tournament, and lost to a 12 seeded Yale in the first round.  Scott Drew...not fired.

The 2010-11 Vanderbilt Commodores.  They were ranked #18, tied for first in the SEC East, then lost three of four.  Lost to 12 seeded Richmond in the first round.  Kevin Stallings...not fired.

The 2013-14 Cincinnati Bearcats.  They were ranked #7 in the country.  Lost three of their last six.  Lost in the second round of the AAC tournament.  Lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament to 12 seeded Harvard.  Mick Cronin...not fired.

There are numerous other examples.

The fact is that these types of collapses and losses are pretty regular happenings.  Coaches don't get fired for them.  And no...there was zero chance they were going to fire Wojo after than AND just because two players transferred.

Scott Drew had taken Baylor to the Elite 8 the previous season.

Kevin Stallings had a couple of Sweet 16s on his resume at Vandy, and is in the discussion as their best ever coach.  (And as it turned out, it probably would have been a good move to let him go.)

Mick Cronin finished first in his conference the season you referenced and at that point had averaged 25 wins over the previous 4 seasons.

Those guys had built a track record of success before those seasons, so not an apples to apples comparison.  These are the arguments that Chicos used to use that drove me crazy, that just because some great coach at some time did the same awful thing that Wojo did, it was OK.  When you've done a bunch of good things, it is much easier to dismiss a failure as an aberration.  Wojo hasn't earned that benefit of the doubt.

Despite this, I do agree with you that pretty much no AD would have jettisoned Wojo at that point.

[wadesworld]

Scott Drew had taken Baylor to the Elite 8 the previous season.

Kevin Stallings had a couple of Sweet 16s on his resume at Vandy, and is in the discussion as their best ever coach.  (And as it turned out, it probably would have been a good move to let him go.)

Mick Cronin finished first in his conference the season you referenced and at that point had averaged 25 wins over the previous 4 seasons.

Those guys had built a track record of success before those seasons, so not an apples to apples comparison.  These are the arguments that Chicos used to use that drove me crazy, that just because some great coach at some time did the same awful thing that Wojo did, it was OK.  When you've done a bunch of good things, it is much easier to dismiss a failure as an aberration.  Wojo hasn't earned that benefit of the doubt.

Despite this, I do agree with you that pretty much no AD would have jettisoned Wojo at that point.

Those coaches also had a much, much longer time to build a track record of success.  I'd actually argue that Wojo's lack of success to that point made it even more reason to keep him around.  He went from one of the worst teams in the Big East his first season to second place in the Big East and a 5 seed in his 4th season.  That's showing progress, a program moving in the right direction.  It would've been completely absurd to fire Wojo then.  Had he come in after Buzz's Elite 8 season, kept Blue and McKay in the program, made the Sweet 16 that season, and then seen the program decline, sure you could've fired Wojo.  That's not what happened though.

[The Sultan]

Scott Drew had taken Baylor to the Elite 8 the previous season.

Kevin Stallings had a couple of Sweet 16s on his resume at Vandy, and is in the discussion as their best ever coach.  (And as it turned out, it probably would have been a good move to let him go.)

Mick Cronin finished first in his conference the season you referenced and at that point had averaged 25 wins over the previous 4 seasons.

Those guys had built a track record of success before those seasons, so not an apples to apples comparison.  These are the arguments that Chicos used to use that drove me crazy, that just because some great coach at some time did the same awful thing that Wojo did, it was OK.  When you've done a bunch of good things, it is much easier to dismiss a failure as an aberration.  Wojo hasn't earned that benefit of the doubt.

Despite this, I do agree with you that pretty much no AD would have jettisoned Wojo at that point.

I was simply stating that what you saw from Marquette that year was hardly unprecedented and wasn't a reason to fire anyone.

Those coaches also had a much, much longer time to build a track record of success.  I'd actually argue that Wojo's lack of success to that point made it even more reason to keep him around.  He went from one of the worst teams in the Big East his first season to second place in the Big East and a 5 seed in his 4th season.  That's showing progress, a program moving in the right direction.  It would've been completely absurd to fire Wojo then.  Had he come in after Buzz's Elite 8 season, kept Blue and McKay in the program, made the Sweet 16 that season, and then seen the program decline, sure you could've fired Wojo.  That's not what happened though.

Exactly.  We are simply viewing Wojo's 2019 issues in a 2021 lens. 

[burger]

Of course we all want more.  More wins, tourney wins, etc.   Marquette has more pressing issues than whether scoop is pissed.

One tourney win would be nice......LOL......

[Galway Eagle]

Those coaches also had a much, much longer time to build a track record of success.  I'd actually argue that Wojo's lack of success to that point made it even more reason to keep him around.  He went from one of the worst teams in the Big East his first season to second place in the Big East and a 5 seed in his 4th season.  That's showing progress, a program moving in the right direction.  It would've been completely absurd to fire Wojo then.  Had he come in after Buzz's Elite 8 season, kept Blue and McKay in the program, made the Sweet 16 that season, and then seen the program decline, sure you could've fired Wojo.  That's not what happened though.

It was his 5th season

1- Carlino and bad
2- Henry and average at best
3- Butt kicked by South Carolina
4- Rowsey and Howard flop against Depaul to get us into the NIT
5- 5 seed in NCAA after could've had a shot a 2 seed

[cheebs09]

In the middle of that year, we kind of thought Wojo had the PowerPoint plan working. That team was humming until Markus got hurt.

Granted, that showed Wojo's weakness to either not adjust or not having control of that team.

I can't imagine any school would have fired Wojo at that point. Especially, when it is partially due to an injury to your best player.

I think due to the benefit of hindsight, we can see that the issues on that team weren't just a one-off. But at that time, people were ticked, but thought we were trending upwards. We just have a lot more data to point to now.

[wadesworld]

It was his 5th season

1- Carlino and bad
2- Henry and average at best
3- Butt kicked by South Carolina
4- Rowsey and Howard flop against Depaul to get us into the NIT
5- 5 seed in NCAA after could've had a shot a 2 seed

Sorry, you're right.  Forgot about the NIT season.

[MU82]

Which part of what you're saying qualifies as a fact?

An inexcusable collapse followed by a humiliating first round annihilation topped by losing 2 of the 3 best players on a top 5 roster. Who's your P6 comp for that? Stop hiding behind this "yeah it was a mistake but everyone else would have done the same thing" excuse. A mistake is a mistake and keeping Wojo was a mistake full stop.

Several fellow Scoopers beat me to it.

You're simply frustrated and angry, and you can't control your emotions enough to be pragmatic.

I highly recommend you channel your frustrations by organizing a petition or leading a boycott. Do something about it rather than make silly, illogical arguments on the interwebs.

[CTWarrior]

Those coaches also had a much, much longer time to build a track record of success.  I'd actually argue that Wojo's lack of success to that point made it even more reason to keep him around.  He went from one of the worst teams in the Big East his first season to second place in the Big East and a 5 seed in his 4th season.  That's showing progress, a program moving in the right direction.  It would've been completely absurd to fire Wojo then.  Had he come in after Buzz's Elite 8 season, kept Blue and McKay in the program, made the Sweet 16 that season, and then seen the program decline, sure you could've fired Wojo.  That's not what happened though.

I am just saying that though the finish to the seasons were similar (I thought ours was the worst of the four but they are all reasonably close enough), the situations were not really similar at all due to the status/track record of the coach.  You could argue like you have that you could give the new coach the benefit of the doubt more if you are so inclined.

So I don't think we really disagree all that much with regards to Wojo.  The collapse and an otherwise show of slow but fairly steady progress wasn't enough to let him go in 2019.  The Hausers' departure happened late enough in the cycle that even if that was your impetus for changing a coach, it was a bit late in the process to actually do it.

[Billy Hoyle]

I am just saying that though the finish to the seasons were similar (I thought ours was the worst of the four but they are all reasonably close enough), the situations were not really similar at all due to the status/track record of the coach.  You could argue like you have that you could give the new coach the benefit of the doubt more if you are so inclined.

So I don't think we really disagree all that much with regards to Wojo.  The collapse and an otherwise show of slow but fairly steady progress wasn't enough to let him go in 2019.  The Hausers' departure happened late enough in the cycle that even if that was your impetus for changing a coach, it was a bit late in the process to actually do it.

Thad Matta was dismissed on June 5.

[4everwarriors]

Either Moe, Curly, or Larry stand a better chance at being MU's next coach than any of the names mentioned in this thread, hey?