what kind of result this year gets wojo canned?

[WhiteTrash]

Had Wojo had the success we wanted his first five years, he would have already been gone.

Not sure about that but anything is possible. What is for certain is he would have a longer term and more lucrative contract with Marquette. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Cheeks


Come on. Do you really think if Wojo is given the time he is going to make a year in and year out top ten program? Please do not insult anyone on here by saying you believe that. You note the bar you believe our program has and reaching their level is not in the cards.

You know I am a Cheeks fan, but sometimes you really are over the top in an attempt to make a point. Wojo is not going to become Few or Wright and even the biggest Wojo backer would think that is a stretch.

I am not a Wojo backer and I think it is possible and I think it is foolish to suggest that it is impossible. All great coaches were worse coaches at the beginning of their careers than at the end of their careers. Great coaches are always learning and always improving. I've seen growth from Wojo each year and still see potential. I'd rather nurture that potential than tear down everything and hope the next guy is better. If the growth stops, that's when you change horses.

[Cheeks]

so I count 1 missed year 4/5 years as a very competitive team. Weve had 2/6?

Wojo has only been here 5 full seasons...so if you are saddling Buzz with his last season and should saddle Buzz with Wojo's first because he inherited that mess....correct.  I thought I was clear in saying what their fan bases were pissed off about...first round losses / missed tournament, not getting to the second weekend. 

[Cheeks]

Should Jay Wright be fired...that was the headline in March of 2011.  I love this headline.  Why, because they lost their last 5 games... because the next year was even worse as they missed the tournament entirely.  And the year after that, one and done...and still he had a job.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/630868-big-east-tournament-is-this-the-end-for-villanova-and-coach-jay-wright

The article talks of how only one or two guys were shouldering the load and he had to get more players involved.  Guess what....coaches learn.


Incidentally, about 4 hours ago Wright was named AP coach of the decade, because fans don't call the shots.   https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/01/03/sports/ncaabasketball/ap-bkc-all-decade-coach.html

[Mutaman]

Your math is too simplistic to understand there is more depth to the analysis. 

Ahh, but the strawberries that's... that's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with... geometric logic..

[dgies9156]

Cheeks


Come on. Do you really think if Wojo is given the time he is going to make a year in and year out top ten program? Please do not insult anyone on here by saying you believe that. You note the bar you believe our program has and reaching their level is not in the cards.

Goose:

The thing is, I don't know. I know we have great recruits coming in next year and if Mr. Mane comes here, it will be spectacular. Coach Wojo may be a Top 5 guy. But the fact that we still are asking this question is, in itself, a problem.

If he leaves and gets a Natty somewhere else, the descendants of the folks on this Board now will go nuts. And, it will be a crying shame.But, what scares most of us, is how long do we have to wait to know?

[Cheeks]

Cheeks


Come on. Do you really think if Wojo is given the time he is going to make a year in and year out top ten program? Please do not insult anyone on here by saying you believe that. You note the bar you believe our program has and reaching their level is not in the cards.

You know I am a Cheeks fan, but sometimes you really are over the top in an attempt to make a point. Wojo is not going to become Few or Wright and even the biggest Wojo backer would think that is a stretch.

I don't think anyone will make MU a top 10 program for any decent length of time.  We have been a top 10 program ONE TIME in our history for any decent interval....Al is gone.

I cannot be anymore blunt than that....I don't think there is anyone out there that can do it for a long period of time that would actually come to MU and stay at MU.   I believe we can be a 15 to 25 program.  I believe 15 to 25 is very good and high expectations.  No doubt some of you will say I don't have high enough expectations....well, that's fine.  I look at who the top 10 programs are, what they do to stay there and MU isn't remotely in that category in a dozen factors.


Buzz appeared in the AP top 10 two seasons, his first two years.  Wojo one season (last year).  Crean four seasons.  Only ONE of those years did we finish the season top 10...that was the Final Four year.  Only once.

http://www.collegepollarchive.com/mbasketball/ap/teams/summary.cfm?teamid=100#.Xg_FkkdKi73

[brewcity77]

Brew

How is 49 out of 107 32%?

Wojo hasn't played anything remotely close to 49 cupcakes. He’s only played 51 total home non-con games.

It's disingenuous to include this year because every team plays more cupcakes in non-con so it unfairly skews the percentage. I only included full seasons, but excluded games like Vermont & Buffalo. Here are those results:

2014-15 (5): Tennessee-Martin, NJIT, Alabama A&M, North Dakota, Morgan State

2015-16 (8): IUPUI, Jackson State, Grambling, Maine, San Jose State, Chicago State, Presbyterian, Stetson

2016-17 (6): Howard, IUPUI, Houston Baptist, Western Carolina, St Francis PA, SIUE

2017-18 (5): Mount St Mary's, Eastern Illinois, Chicago State, Northern Illinois, American

2018-19 (7): UMBC, Bethune Cookman, Presbyterian, Charleston Southern, UTEP, North Dakota, Southern

So that's 31 out of 97, which is 31.96%, which I rounded up to 32. Even if you add the 6 this year, that's 38 of 107, which is 35.51%, still short of your target number (but again, incomplete seasons are disingenuous, in my opinion).

49 is a ridiculous number that would only work if you included high majors like Wisconsin & Purdue, non-cupcake buys like Fresno State or Buffalo, or weak Big East teams like DePaul or St John's.

Also, welcome back to posting. Noticed you were gone for awhile, happy to see you've returned & hope all is well.

[muguru]

Interesting you say that.....because both of those fanbases wanted their head coach fired for not winning enough in March.  Too many first round losses or not getting into the second weekend.  The administrations stuck with them.   Nova went to a Final Four and then 2nd round loss, 1st round loss, no tournament at all, first round loss and Nova fans had the pitchforks out.  Probably why Jay Wright said it's a crapshoot.

Mark Few, before their last Elite Eight went 7 of 8 years not getting to the second weekend and some of their fan were irate....probably why he said it's a crapshoot.   

I'm glad you mention this...at least few has gotten Gonzaga into the tourney what?? 17 straight years or something. You can't win it, if you aren't in it. I want more, but at least right now, I would give ANYTHING to have the Buzz years of 7 straight years of making the NCAA's, or more.

[Herman Cain]

I don't think anyone will make MU a top 10 program for any decent length of time.  We have been a top 10 program ONE TIME in our history for any decent interval....Al is gone.

I cannot be anymore blunt than that....I don't think there is anyone out there that can do it for a long period of time that would actually come to MU and stay at MU.   I believe we can be a 15 to 25 program.  I believe 15 to 25 is very good and high expectations.  No doubt some of you will say I don't have high enough expectations....well, that's fine.  I look at who the top 10 programs are, what they do to stay there and MU isn't remotely in that category in a dozen factors.


Buzz appeared in the AP top 10 two seasons, his first two years.  Wojo one season (last year).  Crean four seasons.  Only ONE of those years did we finish the season top 10...that was the Final Four year.  Only once.

http://www.collegepollarchive.com/mbasketball/ap/teams/summary.cfm?teamid=100#.Xg_FkkdKi73

I think the MU standard that Mike Deanes Dark Glasses laid out is a reasonable one.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59612.msg1187455#msg1187455

[Small Orange Soda]

That doesn't mean that Wojo has a job forever. He's allowed to work through growing pains but he's got to show improvement. Personally, I've seen improvement from Wojo as a coach every year, with the jury still being out on this year. When he took over, I expected a two year rebuild before making it back to the tournament. Since then, we've had a 10 seed, NIT, and 5 seed. A good not great run of three years. Right now we're projected to be an 8 seed (personally think they will finish better than that). It that's the reality, 10, NIT, 5, 8 is still a good 4 year run, not great. Wojo will need to rebuild next year and is off to a great start with Dawson, Oso, and Justin. I expect his next 4 year run to be great instead of good.

It's easy to be optimistic when you continue to think going from the NCAA to the NIT is an improvement.

You also claimed this was the year Wojo was building toward.  Well here we are, unranked and a projected 8 seed, so of course you're back to kicking the can down the road.

[Cheeks]

I'm glad you mention this...at least few has gotten Gonzaga into the tourney what?? 17 straight years or something. You can't win it, if you aren't in it. I want more, but at least right now, I would give ANYTHING to have the Buzz years of 7 straight years of making the NCAA's, or more.

Yup, he's got the perfect setup.  Essentially an automatic bid playing in a bad conference.  It's like the Patriots starting out most years 6-0 before they play a single game.  They have a unique situation and they took advantage of it.  Perhaps we should downgrade to the Horizon? 

[Cheeks]

I think the MU standard that Mike Deanes Dark Glasses laid out is a reasonable one.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=59612.msg1187455#msg1187455

Reasonable in what sense...it's reasonable to accomplish what only 4 programs in the nation have done per his "reasonable" criteria.  Sorry, I don't think 4/353   (1.1%) is reasonable.  Over the last 20 years FOUR schools have gone to the NCAA's 99% of the time.  FOUR.  That's reasonable criteria...on what planet?

Kansas
Duke
Michigan State
Gonzaga

Then when you get into his other nonsense about Sweet 16's per decade, Final Four per decade....there is nothing reasonable about it at all.

[Herman Cain]

Reasonable in what sense...it's reasonable to accomplish what only 4 programs in the nation have done per his "reasonable" criteria.  Sorry, I don't think 4/353   (1.1%) is reasonable.  Over the last 20 years FOUR schools have gone to the NCAA's 99% of the time.  FOUR.  That's reasonable criteria...on what planet?

Kansas
Duke
Michigan State
Gonzaga

Then when you get into his other nonsense about Sweet 16's per decade, Final Four per decade....there is nothing reasonable about it at all.

I agree, the NCAA should probably be closer to 90 percent. Miss once in 10 years. The rest was all pretty much achieved over the course of Crean/Buzz. I think it is a standard that is not unreasonable at all. All we need is the right coach. We just have the wrong guy to meet that standard. Our guy gets us to the Creighton standard which is perfect for Creighton. Yet we have MU resources, so our standard should be higher. We came close the Mike Deans Dark Glass Standard (MDDGS) in the totality of the Crean/Buzz era . So it is reasonably attainable.

The reality is that the MDDGS is not the standard The Imperial Grand Poobah of MU has set for our basketball coach. He is willing to accept the Creighton standard.  The real blame goes to Lovell in my book.

[SaveOD238]

I may have missed something but...

Buzz was 16-38 against teams that finished the year in KenPom top 20.  You take out his last year, when he went 0-6, he won a third of those games.

Wojo is 2-24 against those teams.  The wins?  Nova in 2017 and Wisconsin last year.  More disturbing is that his most successful years included very few of those teams.  He went 1-2 in 2016-17 (1-1 v. Nova, 0-1 v. Michigan)  Last year he went 1-1 (1-0 v. UW, 0-1 v. Kansas)

So in his most successful seasons, he played schedules without elite teams.

This is a pretty standout stat.  I wonder what the 20-40 (i.e. tournament teams) record looks like.

It's also worth pointing out that fully 11 of those 24 losses to top 20 teams have been to Villanova, who finished 5, 1, 2, 1 and 30 in the last five years in KenPom.

[Cheeks]

I agree, the NCAA should probably be closer to 90 percent. Miss once in 10 years. The rest was all pretty much achieved over the course of Crean/Buzz. I think it is a standard that is not unreasonable at all. All we need is the right coach. We just have the wrong guy to meet that standard. Our guy gets us to the Creighton standard which is perfect for Creighton. Yet we have MU resources, so our standard should be higher. We came close the Mike Deans Dark Glass Standard (MDDGS) in the totality of the Crean/Buzz era . So it is reasonably attainable.

The reality is that the MDDGS is not the standard The Imperial Grand Poobah of MU has set for our basketball coach. He is willing to accept the Creighton standard.  The real blame goes to Lovell in my book.

No blame, just expectations not aligned with reality.   Should we also be like Stanford academically or MIT?

For giggles, the number of programs that have made it 9 out of 10 years

6 schools....6 out of 353

Kansas 10 of 10
Duke 10 of 10
Michigan State 10 of 10
Gonzaga 10 of 10
Cincinnati 9 of 10
North Carolina  9 of 10

Carolina may not make it this year. Cincinnati is also in trouble.

Again, I ask how is this a REASONABLE STANDARD?  It simply isn't.  It's fandom not anchored to a bit of reality anywhere.

[Galway Eagle]

I'm glad you mention this...at least few has gotten Gonzaga into the tourney what?? 17 straight years or something. You can't win it, if you aren't in it. I want more, but at least right now, I would give ANYTHING to have the Buzz years of 7 straight years of making the NCAA's, or more.

Buzz took us to 7 straight NCAAs? Hmm...

09 + 10 + 11 + 12 + 13=...

If you're including Creans three it was 8 straight.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It's easy to be optimistic when you continue to think going from the NCAA to the NIT is an improvement.

You continue to misunderstand. Going from 13-19 to NIT is improvement.

You also claimed this was the year Wojo was building toward.  Well here we are, unranked and a projected 8 seed, so of course you're back to kicking the can down the road.

Yes, this year is supposed to be the best so far. I'm reserving judgement given that we're a little over a third of the way through the season. I still think we end up with a 4-6 seed which I'd be happy with. Not ecstatic but happy. If we end up 7 seed - first four (where we are now) I'll be disappointed. If you actually read my posts, you'll notice that I said that if he follows that up by missing the tournament next season, I'd be ready to consider changing coaches. I don't think that's really kicking the can down the road.

[Goose]

Brew

Of course the numbers will change with more games played this season. My post was simply based off the record that was noted in a post.

As for returning, it has nothing to do with the Creighton game. Was in Asia the week before Xmas, and quite frankly, MU ball has been on vacation since K State game. Not much to talk about when playing a scrimmage.

Thus far, only the truly optimistic could be posting. Not many meaningful games and gaps in between. I would love to be posting about an upcoming big game in early season, but non were on the schedule, aside from UW.

[Small Orange Soda]

You continue to misunderstand. Going from 13-19 to NIT is improvement.

Yes, this year is supposed to be the best so far. I'm reserving judgement given that we're a little over a third of the way through the season. I still think we end up with a 4-6 seed which I'd be happy with. Not ecstatic but happy. If we end up 7 seed - first four (where we are now) I'll be disappointed. If you actually read my posts, you'll notice that I said that if he follows that up by missing the tournament next season, I'd be ready to consider changing coaches. I don't think that's really kicking the can down the road.

If every season that is better than 13-19 is considered to be improvement, then I don't know what to say.  Going from the NCAA to the NIT, which Wojo did, is not improving every year.

As for the seeding and next year, if that's your standard, fair enough.  It just seems like a lot of people in Wojo's corner have quick trigger fingers for someone they think is doing a good job.  If you believe a coach is an NIT appearance away from the unemployment line, then how good of a job is he really doing?

[Galway Eagle]

If every season that is better than 13-19 is considered to be improvement, then I don't know what to say.  Going from the NCAA to the NIT, which Wojo did, is not improving every year.

As for the seeding and next year, if that's your standard, fair enough.  It just seems like a lot of people in Wojo's corner have quick trigger fingers for someone they think is doing a good job.  If you believe a coach is an NIT appearance away from the unemployment line, then how good of a job is he really doing?

It should be noted that our NET in 2018 would've gotten us in but RPI was still the deciding factor. We were a good team that year.

[Small Orange Soda]

It should be noted that our NET in 2018 would've gotten us in but RPI was still the deciding factor. We were a good team that year.

We were an NIT team that year.

[Galway Eagle]

We were an NIT team that year.

I get that, I didn't say we weren't. We would be in with todays metrics all things the same.

I'm only pointing out that we were a good team that year.

[Silent Verbal]

I get that, I didn't say we weren't. We would be in with todays metrics all things the same.

I'm only pointing out that we were a good team that year.

We couldn’t have been that good if we didn’t even get in the tourney and got our asses beat by Penn State in the NIT at home, hey?

[Galway Eagle]

We couldn’t have been that good if we didn’t even get in the tourney and got our asses beat by Penn State in the NIT at home, hey?

Still would've been in. People act like because that team was in the NIT it was horrible and a huge step below the year prior. I'm not proclaiming it to have been a great team or even a top 25 team only that using today's metrics it was a tournament team.