General state of college basketball

[The Sultan]

Once again, not saying that they can't, but sticking with the Evan Turner example, you offer him 10% more anywhere else in the league, and he's gone.  You offer Markus a full ride at a school that costs 10% more, he's still at Marquette (part of the reason I'm on the fence about the paying college athletes thing).

I don't understand why you're trying to tell me that my opinion is wrong?  I prefer watching CBB, I've given one example why, there are more.  If you prefer professional that's fine, that's your opinion and I'll respect it, don't really think that I should have to ask for that in return.

I never said your opinion was wrong.  Most of the time I was responding to questions you asked me.

If you like college basketball, that's fine.  Just don't justify it by using bad anaolgies and cliches.

[Its DJOver]

I never said your opinion was wrong.  Most of the time I was responding to questions you asked me.

If you like college basketball, that's fine.  Just don't justify it by using bad anaolgies and cliches.

The sarcasm used gave the implication that you thought my opinion was wrong, so even though you may never have said, "your opinion is wrong", the message was very clear.

I can justify my opinion however I want, that's the perks of having an opinion.  If I said that I preferred CBB because all the jerseys looked better, that would be a perfectly acceptable way to justify an opinion.

You want other reasons why I don't like professional ball?  How about the incentive to lose (across all professional sports).  Who's in the Tua sweepstakes lead right now, or is it the Burrows sweepstakes now that Tua's hurt?  I seem to remember Knicks fans booing their teams (few) wins because they wanted a better shot at Zion.  "Trust the process" was the only thing people from Philly could say for about a 5 year stretch.  Wojo and the Marquette program are not without faults, but you could never accuse them of not trying.

And I'll say again, the incentive to lose, is not anyone's fault.  It's just as aspect that the professional sports world has, that the collegiate world does not have.  Obviously its a bigger deal to some than to others.

[The Sultan]

The sarcasm used gave the implication that you thought my opinion was wrong, so even though you may never have said, "your opinion is wrong", the message was very clear.

Oh GMAFB...

And I'll say again, the incentive to lose, is not anyone's fault.  It's just as aspect that the professional sports world has, that the collegiate world does not have.  Obviously its a bigger deal to some than to others.

My solution to that is don't base drafts on the records for the year before.  It gets rid of the incentive.

[Galway Eagle]

The sarcasm used gave the implication that you thought my opinion was wrong, so even though you may never have said, "your opinion is wrong", the message was very clear.

I can justify my opinion however I want, that's the perks of having an opinion.  If I said that I preferred CBB because all the jerseys looked better, that would be a perfectly acceptable way to justify an opinion.

You want other reasons why I don't like professional ball?  How about the incentive to lose (across all professional sports).  Who's in the Tua sweepstakes lead right now, or is it the Burrows sweepstakes now that Tua's hurt?  I seem to remember Knicks fans booing their teams (few) wins because they wanted a better shot at Zion.  "Trust the process" was the only thing people from Philly could say for about a 5 year stretch.  Wojo and the Marquette program are not without faults, but you could never accuse them of not trying.

And I'll say again, the incentive to lose, is not anyone's fault.  It's just as aspect that the professional sports world has, that the collegiate world does not have.  Obviously its a bigger deal to some than to others.

It'd almost be better if the pro team had U21 and U18 clubs to develop players and relaxation to take away the incentive to lose. but then that'd ruin the magic of college sports.

[Uncle Rico]

It'd almost be better if the pro team had U21 and U18 clubs to develop players and relaxation to take away the incentive to lose. but then that'd ruin the magic of college sports.

It would be better for the NBA and basketball in general. 

[Galway Eagle]

It would be better for the NBA and basketball in general.

For the NBA yes
For basketball in general yes
For college basketball... not seeing it unless you could commit to a college after U18 if you weren't gonna get major U21 minutes.

[Its DJOver]

Oh GMAFB...



My solution to that is don't base drafts on the records for the year before.  It gets rid of the incentive.

If it were that simple do you think the NBA would have done that by now?

[The Sultan]

Again, I am a "Modified Wheel Draft" proponent.  (Preferring the groups of three over ten years)

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2015/02/27/re-inventing-the-wheel-mike-zarren-presents-modified-nba-draft-lottery-reform-proposals/

That way teams know, within a variability of one or two places, where they are going to be drafting for the next ten years.  Gives draft picks a more absolute value and disincentivizes tanking. 

Similar things could easily be done in the NFL as well.

[Uncle Rico]

For the NBA yes
For basketball in general yes
For college basketball... not seeing it unless you could commit to a college after U18 if you weren't gonna get major U21 minutes.

Agree 100%.  It would kill the college game as we know it but there are very few coaches in today's game that care about developing players or can develop players.  I think that's why the game is in bad shape. 

There was a Badgers fan here posting about Gard "developing" players.  Developing players is taking 3 and 4 stars and making them into NBA players.  Jay Wright and John Beilein did that and it looks like Chris Beard could be that guy, too. 

[Cheeks]

The NBA product has gotten much better the last decade.  The college product has gotten worse.  I don't care which one you like more.  Personal preference doesn't matter.  You like what you like and that's okay, who cares one way or the other? 

I simply don't see how anyone can argue college basketball is in a better place than it was in even 2000.  Doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't enjoy it.  But I can watch Dwyane Wade and Marquette highlights from 2003 and see it isn't just Marquette not playing that well nowadays, none of the top teams are.  Today's game is a slog and last years Final 4 was the cherry on the top.

The sooner we get the guys that don't give a crap about college basketball to play in the pros the better.  The amount of turnover we have in college basketball is a big reason why teams have to "restart" each year.  Massive transfers, one and dones, etc.  This is why open transfers which you desire, will only make the product even worse.  There used to be almost total continuity, then it became partial, open transfers will make it unwatchable...no reason for people to give one hoot about putting effort into following a team as the roster turnovers will be epic.

[Cheeks]

Oh GMAFB...



My solution to that is don't base drafts on the records for the year before.  It gets rid of the incentive.

What should drafts be based on?  Doesn't modified wheel not account for things like career ending injuries, deaths, etc?  Or maybe it does...asking.

[Cheeks]

Agree 100%.  It would kill the college game as we know it but there are very few coaches in today's game that care about developing players or can develop players.  I think that's why the game is in bad shape. 

There was a Badgers fan here posting about Gard "developing" players.  Developing players is taking 3 and 4 stars and making them into NBA players.  Jay Wright and John Beilein did that and it looks like Chris Beard could be that guy, too.

There are only so many NBA slots each year, so developing 3 and 4 star guys into NBA players is a bit of a pipe dream considering some are already there without development and slots are so limited.  It also requires the kid to actually give a damn and put the work in.

[dgies9156]

There are but two college teams I follow with any regularity -- Marquette because it's Marquette and Vanderbilt because I grew up with it.

The only time I follow pro basketball is if someone gives me a ticket and tells me to go or in the last two minutes of the NBA finals.

College is flawed. And, while the game has changed dramatically in the last 30 years or so, the flaws make it unpredictable. On any given night, the Orlando Magic is not going defeating the Golden State Warriors. But in college, we've watched Evansville take down Kentucky or Robert Morris almost take us down. We've seen UMBC take down Virginia and I do remember a certain Miami of Ohio taking down the defending national champions decades ago. That kind of stuff just won't happen in the pro game.

The NCAA tournament's first weekend is exciting because everybody who was invited (are you listening Wojo) thinks they have a shot at the title. And once in awhile, teams like Loyola of Chicago or Butler break through to the Final Four. How many time,s has an "8" seed won an NBA title? I'll bet it's NONE!

[The Sultan]

College is flawed. And, while the game has changed dramatically in the last 30 years or so, the flaws make it unpredictable. On any given night, the Orlando Magic is not going defeating the Golden State Warriors.

The Orlando Magic beat the Golden State Warriors last season.

The NCAA tournament's first weekend is exciting because everybody who was invited (are you listening Wojo) thinks they have a shot at the title. And once in awhile, teams like Loyola of Chicago or Butler break through to the Final Four. How many time,s has an "8" seed won an NBA title? I'll bet it's NONE!

You are correct.  The closest would be when the 8-seed Knicks made the Finals in 1999.  And that's more due to the nature of the five and seven game series in the NBA more than anything. 

[MU82]

This is why open transfers which you desire, will only make the product even worse.  There used to be almost total continuity, then it became partial, open transfers will make it unwatchable...no reason for people to give one hoot about putting effort into following a team as the roster turnovers will be epic.

Doomed!! College basketball would be doomed!!

[Uncle Rico]

Doomed!! College basketball would be doomed!!

College basketball would be better if coaches let kids play instead of micromanaging

[The Sultan]

College basketball would be better if coaches let kids play instead of micromanaging

No sh*t.  This is one of my pet peeves about watching the college game.  These damn coaches screaming on the sidelines all game. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

No sh*t.  This is one of my pet peeves about watching the college game.  These damn coaches screaming on the sidelines all game.

How has that changed for the worse over time? In fact, with current rules (box, less time outs, shot clock), coaches likely have less control than in Al's time.

[Galway Eagle]

How has that changed for the worse over time? In fact, with current rules (box, less time outs, shot clock), coaches likely have less control than in Al's time.

I was just thinking the same.

[MU82]

College basketball would be better if coaches let kids play instead of micromanaging

No sh*t.  This is one of my pet peeves about watching the college game.  These damn coaches screaming on the sidelines all game. 

I tend to agree with this. But then, as soon as he doesn't "micromanage" and his team struggles, he will be accused of not doing enough.

I coach a week or three at the Hornets camp every summer, and each week is filled with games between the teams that are chosen for each age group. The camp director always tells the coaches, "Parents are watching. Coach your teams. Don't just sit there watching. They want to know you care."

Just last night, I went to see my former HS team play. The coach, a very hands-on guy who tends to "micromanage," decided not to call a timeout in the final seconds of the second OT with the team down by 1 and with the basketball in his best player's hands. They ended up getting a poor shot and losing, and I'm sure the coach is second-guessing himself (and parents are second-guessing him.)

Whether one agrees or disagrees almost doesn't matter. It's perception ... and also the fact that folks will always find a reason to beyotch about something.

[Pakuni]

I'm with Chicos. Michael Jordan started all 82 games for 8 of his 14 NBA seasons. It can be done.

It's not a matter of whether or not it can be done. Of course it can be done.
But is it smart? Is it best for the players' ability to be at their peak performance and avoid injury? Is it best for the team's long-term success?
The science says the answer is a resounding "no."
Contrary to what the "Back in my Day Brigade" would have you believe, load management has nothing to do with how tough players are these days. It's about the data. And the data says the players perform better and are more likely to escape injury by resting more and avoiding back-to-back games.
Ultimately teams will (and should) do what's in their best interest, and that means keeping their top players healthy and at their best.

[MU82]

It's not a matter of whether or not it can be done. Of course it can be done.
But is it smart? Is it best for the players' ability to be at their peak performance and avoid injury? Is it best for the team's long-term success?
The science says the answer is a resounding "no."
Contrary to what the "Back in my Day Brigade" would have you believe, load management has nothing to do with how tough players are these days. It's about the data. And the data says the players perform better and are more likely to escape injury by resting more and avoiding back-to-back games.
Ultimately teams will (and should) do what's in their best interest, and that means keeping their top players healthy and at their best.

You know how some doofus celebrates a sack when his team is down by 28 points, and one of his opponents simply responds, "Scoreboard!"

Well, folks beyotch about "load management" ... but the Raptors can just say, "Scoreboard!" As could Popovich for many years.

I do think there is a fine line, though. I certainly see giving stars a few games off, especially in back-to-back games. That is especially true of older players or of guys who have been injured.

But to give a relatively healthy, highly compensated NBA player 15+ games off "just because" ... that doesn't seem very fair to the people who buy tickets or to the networks that pay hundreds of million$ for the right to televise games.

There's got to be a middle ground.

[The Sultan]

How has that changed for the worse over time? In fact, with current rules (box, less time outs, shot clock), coaches likely have less control than in Al's time.

I never claimed it had changed.  I was actually comparing to the pros where oftentimes the coach sits back and let's the players do their thing. 

[MU82]

I never claimed it had changed.  I was actually comparing to the pros where oftentimes the coach sits back and let's the players do their thing.

I remember several instances of Phil Jackson filing his nails on the bench. Literally filing his nails! Cracked me up every time.

[Pakuni]

You know how some doofus celebrates a sack when his team is down by 28 points, and one of his opponents simply responds, "Scoreboard!"

Well, folks beyotch about "load management" ... but the Raptors can just say, "Scoreboard!" As could Popovich for many years.

I do think there is a fine line, though. I certainly see giving stars a few games off, especially in back-to-back games. That is especially true of older players or of guys who have been injured.

But to give a relatively healthy, highly compensated NBA player 15+ games off "just because" ... that doesn't seem very fair to the people who buy tickets or to the networks that pay hundreds of million$ for the right to televise games.

There's got to be a middle ground.

You're right. It's not fair. And the league needs to address it by continuing to adjust the schedule.
Beyond that, I'm not sure what else can be done. Is it any more fair to tell teams "Ignore the data, weaken your chances at a title and put your best players' health at risk for the sake of this mid-December road game?"