collapse

* Stud of Colorado Game

Tyler Kolek

21 points, 5 rebounds,
11 assists, 1 steal,
40 minutes

2023-24 Season SoG Tally
Kolek11
Ighodaro6
Jones, K.6
Mitchell2
Jones, S.1
Joplin1

'22-23
'21-22 * '20-21 * '19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

Big East 23-24 NCAA and NIT Results by PointWarrior
[Today at 12:08:31 AM]


Three Years Ago Today... by Newsdreams
[March 27, 2024, 11:34:10 PM]


Kam Jones 1st Round Mock - The Ringer by PGsHeroes32
[March 27, 2024, 10:40:15 PM]


Katz has MU in Final Four by MurphysTillClose
[March 27, 2024, 10:24:36 PM]


UNLEASH THE POWER OF SCOOP!!! by TallTitan34
[March 27, 2024, 10:20:50 PM]


Best MU team since 1977 by Galway Eagle
[March 27, 2024, 09:47:04 PM]


Chicago bars for Fri game by Hallmarq
[March 27, 2024, 09:09:04 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: NC State

Marquette
81
Marquette vs

NC State

Date/Time: Mar 29, 2024, 6:09 pm
TV: CBS
Schedule for 2023-24
Colorado
77

Author Topic: A win is a win is a win is a win  (Read 44149 times)

Jay Bee

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9019
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #125 on: November 25, 2019, 12:53:31 PM »
If Purdue had hit their free throws, Marquette would be 2-2 and have not a single Top 100 win.

#FakeNews

Why would Purdue hit 100% of their FTA's, when the average team hits around 70-71%? They also would not have gotten offense rebounds leading to easy scores off their missed FTs. Purdue's free throw shooting didn't lose them the game. Shooting 6.2% eFG% worse than MU did.
Thanks for ruining summer, Canada.

Shooter McGavin

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2678
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #126 on: November 25, 2019, 12:58:18 PM »
Hmmmm.....

Now that is funny.   Even Goose has to admit that.   

Goose

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 10442
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #127 on: November 25, 2019, 01:00:02 PM »
DJO

I did say I thought it would be Wojo's best team and maybe I was flat out wrong. I based my comments off high expectations for Johnson and believing that the returning guys were going to make big improvements. Last April many said the returning guys were going to up their games to fill the void in the loss of Sam and Joey and that obviously is not the case. While I never have thought that anyone, aside from Howard is a big time D1 player, I fell into the trap of believing one or two guys would up their games and no one did. This is a team of role players on a really good team or a group that a very high level coach could coach up.

Sadly, I actually did think this year's team was going to be a good one. I have not 100% thrown in the towel for this year and maybe they get coached up and improve.




Goose

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 10442
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #128 on: November 25, 2019, 01:04:25 PM »
Shooter

I do think it is funny that I was frickin' stupid enough to believe that Wojo had coached up the returning players and they make us forget about Sam and Joey.

Shooter McGavin

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2678
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #129 on: November 25, 2019, 01:09:05 PM »
Goose,

I agree with you more and more on Wojo and his ability to coach (or lack there of) and our overall talent this year (or lack there of).  The stark contrast between the two posts one month apart was humorous though and I felt that even you would agree.  Not trying to pick a fight.


Its DJOver

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3001
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #130 on: November 25, 2019, 01:09:25 PM »
DJO

I did say I thought it would be Wojo's best team and maybe I was flat out wrong. I based my comments off high expectations for Johnson and believing that the returning guys were going to make big improvements. Last April many said the returning guys were going to up their games to fill the void in the loss of Sam and Joey and that obviously is not the case. While I never have thought that anyone, aside from Howard is a big time D1 player, I fell into the trap of believing one or two guys would up their games and no one did has yet. This is a team of role players on a really good team or a group that a very high level coach could coach up.

Sadly, I actually did think this year's team was going to be a good one. I have not 100% thrown in the towel for this year and maybe they get coached up and improve.

Do you really think that you have a large enough sample size to make this declaration. 

We do the same thing with grad transfers every year.  Especially now considering his injury, I don't think it's fair to judge Jayce in any way until the middle of January.  I don't know if all the pieces will come together, but prior to a 4 game sample size you did, and I think it's just silly to completely backtrack on that in November.

Goose

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 10442
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #131 on: November 25, 2019, 01:19:13 PM »
DJO

The sample size is that returning players did make big strides upward and one of the new guys are not enough to make up for Sam and Joey being gone.

You say "has yet" and I say no one did. For the record, I based my comments off of experience, not just throwing things out there. I will cite an example, from day one Vander's JR. season anyone who knew ball could tell he upped his game significantly over the off season. Only real question that some had was they wanted to see over a bigger sample size than first 6-7 games. That said, the improvement could be noted by casual fans or fans that know the game. He became better because he was a very skilled player with flaws that needed improvement. Current guys are not very skilled players.

There is not one returning player that improved their shooting, dribbling, rebounding, passing, defensive by any real margin margin. I was counting on BB or Cain or anyone making a major leap forward. They all had ample playing time ahead of them and yet no one got much better. IMO, the answer is simple, they are role players and not top level D1 players.

Its DJOver

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3001
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #132 on: November 25, 2019, 01:25:37 PM »
DJO

The sample size is that returning players did make big strides upward and one of the new guys are not enough to make up for Sam and Joey being gone.

You say "has yet" and I say no one did. For the record, I based my comments off of experience, not just throwing things out there. I will cite an example, from day one Vander's JR. season anyone who knew ball could tell he upped his game significantly over the off season. Only real question that some had was they wanted to see over a bigger sample size than first 6-7 games. That said, the improvement could be noted by casual fans or fans that know the game. He became better because he was a very skilled player with flaws that needed improvement. Current guys are not very skilled players.

There is not one returning player that improved their shooting, dribbling, rebounding, passing, defensive by any real margin margin. I was counting on BB or Cain or anyone making a major leap forward. They all had ample playing time ahead of them and yet no one got much better. IMO, the answer is simple, they are role players and not top level D1 players.

Once again, you are basing this off of an extremely small sample size.  They looked good enough in the open practice for you to think that they'd turned a corner, and now after four games you're completely backtracking.  If we come out on fire and take down the Orlando tourney and K-State, are you going to use that 4 game sample to book your trip to Atlanta?  I understand jumping to conclusions is the Scoop M.O., but this large a change this quickly seems excessive, even for us.

skianth16

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2307
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #133 on: November 25, 2019, 01:30:33 PM »
The difference and I think Goose is right, some of these kids are starting for us and would likely be reserves on those other teams.  That's the way it goes when you rebuild.  Lots of 3 star guys, a 4 here or there.  Now we signed Torrence, a 4 star...and two more 4's and a 5 coming in next year.  That's taking the talent up a level.

That's also why Wojo is going NOWHERE any time soon.  Victories in tournaments...crapshoot.  Depends on who you play, where you play, style of play, etc.

It seems like the best thing about Wojo's tenure is always the next few years. I'd just like to finally experience one of them.

Getting big recruiting wins is great and is a good sign for the respect Wojo has nationally, but it's tough to not see the things materialize the way we keep thinking/hoping they will during the season. And sure, we've been fine the last few years. We've made some tourney appearances and notched a few marquee wins. We have certainly not been a bad program by any stretch. But I think most of us had a little higher expectations than what we've gotten in the last few years.

And crapshoot or not, March matters. If we would have made the second weekend last year, a lot of the frustrations of the late season collapse would have been erased. Instead, we got a final exclamation point on the year, cementing the ugly ending with a good old fashioned butt whooping. Until Wojo gets a win in the tournament, that will continue to be a big missing line on his resume. 

Goose

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 10442
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #134 on: November 25, 2019, 01:35:12 PM »
DJO

I have been on record for saying that I thought we had mid level talent, aside from Howard (Sam and Joey), and believe the sample size is big enough. Also, I have said many times that a great coach probably coach these guys up and have a decent season. So, either the guys who have not big improvements decide to improve during the season or coach ups his game, my post from October is wrong.


Galway Eagle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 10456
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #135 on: November 25, 2019, 01:37:53 PM »
DJO

I have been on record for saying that I thought we had mid level talent, aside from Howard (Sam and Joey), and believe the sample size is big enough. Also, I have said many times that a great coach probably coach these guys up and have a decent season. So, either the guys who have not big improvements decide to improve during the season or coach ups his game, my post from October is wrong.

Just out of curiousity did the Torrence or Bailey or Mckewen additions never hype you up at all or have they just not performed to what you'd hoped?
Maigh Eo for Sam

Its DJOver

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3001
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #136 on: November 25, 2019, 01:42:52 PM »
DJO

I have been on record for saying that I thought we had mid level talent, aside from Howard (Sam and Joey), and believe the sample size is big enough. Also, I have said many times that a great coach probably coach these guys up and have a decent season. So, either the guys who have not big improvements decide to improve during the season or coach ups his game, my post from October is wrong.

Not trying to call you out or anything, but then why did you make this prediction, you obviously saw something that you liked?  You knew that Sam and Joey were already gone, you knew Markus was back, you knew that Wojo would be the coach, I believe Nelson had already left, you knew the schedule.  The only additional information that we have about this current team between October and now is 4 games.  If you had gone from doom and gloom to doom and gloom I would understand, but you've switched from "best team to date by a wide margin", to now, "we have mid level talent".

skianth16

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2307
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #137 on: November 25, 2019, 01:52:04 PM »
Once again, you are basing this off of an extremely small sample size.  They looked good enough in the open practice for you to think that they'd turned a corner, and now after four games you're completely backtracking.  If we come out on fire and take down the Orlando tourney and K-State, are you going to use that 4 game sample to book your trip to Atlanta?  I understand jumping to conclusions is the Scoop M.O., but this large a change this quickly seems excessive, even for us.

Come on, this isn't just a Scoop thing. This is what sports fans do. It's part of the experience of following a team. And it definitely goes both ways. It's a roller coaster. And it's all part of spending time and energy and money watching a bunch of teenagers throw a ball at a hoop all winter.

If you're patient and can wait until March to think about March, good for you. But a ton of fans aren't wired like that. They make predictions based on what they've seen, whether that's one game or ten or a few seasons. For the most part, it's not in bad faith, either. It's just voicing the opinion they've formed.

I wish people would stop acting like it's bizarre to make predictions or draw conclusions early in the year. It's a normal thing to do.

Its DJOver

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3001
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #138 on: November 25, 2019, 01:56:09 PM »
Come on, this isn't just a Scoop thing. This is what sports fans do. It's part of the experience of following a team. And it definitely goes both ways. It's a roller coaster. And it's all part of spending time and energy and money watching a bunch of teenagers throw a ball at a hoop all winter.

If you're patient and can wait until March to think about March, good for you. But a ton of fans aren't wired like that. They make predictions based on what they've seen, whether that's one game or ten or a few seasons. For the most part, it's not in bad faith, either. It's just voicing the opinion they've formed.

I wish people would stop acting like it's bizarre to make predictions or draw conclusions early in the year. It's a normal thing to do.

All totally fair points, I just wish that the early prediction/conclusion drawing would have a little less teeth gnashing, and calls for dismissal, because I can guarantee that no matter what happens in Orlando, Wojo will still be the coach next week.

Goose

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 10442
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #139 on: November 25, 2019, 02:08:30 PM »
DJO

As I have stated many times, a big recruiting year (that ends with wins in March) is more important than what this team does on the court. Wojo has a complete pass from me for on court success this season.

Will add, what I have seen this year on the court does not look promising. I guess the collapse late last season just adds to my observation.

Its DJOver

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3001
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #140 on: November 25, 2019, 02:12:56 PM »
DJO

As I have stated many times, a big recruiting year (that ends with wins in March) is more important than what this team does on the court. Wojo has a complete pass from me for on court success this season.

Will add, what I have seen this year on the court does not look promising. I guess the collapse late last season just adds to my observation.

I remember you stating this many times, and I applaud your consistency.  We're all good on that front.  All I would like to know now is why you had the burst of optimism in October.  All of the known events that I mentioned previously had already taken place, we had seen the team practice a couple of times.  We had the box score from the I4 scrimmage, and you felt compelled to say that you thought this would be "wojos best team by a wide margin".  Why did you think this? 

Goose

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 10442
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #141 on: November 25, 2019, 02:26:08 PM »
DJO

Because:

1. I thought BB, Cain, Elliot or Theo (least likely) were making a big leap upward. Based off of optimism from folks on here, they had big opportunity for PT this year and Wojo would coach them up. I now do not believe that is the case.

2. I thought Johnson and Morrow would take minutes from Theo and that likely will not happen. I remain under the belief that Theo is not a guy that should get more than 10 minutes per game, provided he is on a good team. IMO, he is a fan favorite, but not a basketball player.

3. I thought if #1 and #2 happened, Koby's impact would be much bigger. Right now, he is option 2 on a two option team.


Its DJOver

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3001
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #142 on: November 25, 2019, 02:34:24 PM »
DJO

Because:

1. I thought BB, Cain, Elliot or Theo (least likely) were making a big leap upward. Based off of optimism from folks on here, they had big opportunity for PT this year and Wojo would coach them up. I now do not believe that is the case.

2. I thought Johnson and Morrow would take minutes from Theo and that likely will not happen. I remain under the belief that Theo is not a guy that should get more than 10 minutes per game, provided he is on a good team. IMO, he is a fan favorite, but not a basketball player.

3. I thought if #1 and #2 happened, Koby's impact would be much bigger. Right now, he is option 2 on a two option team.

Interesting.  I accept that listening to people talk about how good a team should be can effect someone own perception of that team.  As for point number 2, why the Theo hate?  He's proven to be a very good defensive player (see PT most recent article with everyone's +/-'s on the year.  Same limited sample size I've been stressing but Theo is +52 and Jayce and Ed are a combined -21), and, I will again say that I think it's extremely unfair to judge Jayce after what has been essentially 2 cameos after an injury.  Grad transfers in general should get until the turn of the year, and throw in his injury and I won't be judging him until mid to late January.  Now as Skianth pointed out, everyone can have their midseason predictions about everyone, I just think it's important to know just how infrequent it is that a team is playing to the best of their abilities at this point in the year, and that if you were optimistic about the team 6 weeks ago, 4 games is too small of a sample size to change that.  All IMHO of course.

lawdog77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2432
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #143 on: November 25, 2019, 02:43:13 PM »
I'll jump in to your conversation. I just think it is way too early in the season to write Bailey off. He shows some glimpses of stuffing the stat sheet. He has a very good Block percentage, aSSIST PERCENTAGE, AND REBOUND PERCENTAGE>

Appearances on Leaderboards, Awards, and Honors
Full leaderboard section   ·   Minimum stat requirements Expand all Leaderboards
Awards
Assists Per Game
2019-20 Big East 2.5 (17th)
Blocks Per Game
2019-20 Big East 0.8 (20th)
Defensive Rebound Percentage
2019-20 Big East 16.5 (17th)
Total Rebound Percentage
2019-20 Big East 11.4 (19th)
Assist Percentage
2019-20 Big East 25.3 (8th)
Block Percentage
2019-20 Big East 3.8 (14th)
Defensive Box Plus/Minus
2019-20 Big East 5.0 (11th)

Uncle Rico

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9584
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #144 on: November 25, 2019, 02:43:51 PM »
This thread is making me thirsty
“This is bar none atrocious.  Mitchell cannot shoot either.  What a pile of dung”

Cheeks

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6045
  • Hall of Fame Hugger
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #145 on: November 25, 2019, 02:53:59 PM »
It seems like the best thing about Wojo's tenure is always the next few years. I'd just like to finally experience one of them.

Getting big recruiting wins is great and is a good sign for the respect Wojo has nationally, but it's tough to not see the things materialize the way we keep thinking/hoping they will during the season. And sure, we've been fine the last few years. We've made some tourney appearances and notched a few marquee wins. We have certainly not been a bad program by any stretch. But I think most of us had a little higher expectations than what we've gotten in the last few years.

And crapshoot or not, March matters. If we would have made the second weekend last year, a lot of the frustrations of the late season collapse would have been erased. Instead, we got a final exclamation point on the year, cementing the ugly ending with a good old fashioned butt whooping. Until Wojo gets a win in the tournament, that will continue to be a big missing line on his resume.

Steve Lavin was a brilliant coach...cuz he won a few games in March.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Small Orange Soda

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #146 on: November 25, 2019, 03:11:16 PM »
It seems like the best thing about Wojo's tenure is always the next few years. I'd just like to finally experience one of them.

Getting big recruiting wins is great and is a good sign for the respect Wojo has nationally, but it's tough to not see the things materialize the way we keep thinking/hoping they will during the season. And sure, we've been fine the last few years. We've made some tourney appearances and notched a few marquee wins. We have certainly not been a bad program by any stretch. But I think most of us had a little higher expectations than what we've gotten in the last few years.

And crapshoot or not, March matters. If we would have made the second weekend last year, a lot of the frustrations of the late season collapse would have been erased. Instead, we got a final exclamation point on the year, cementing the ugly ending with a good old fashioned butt whooping. Until Wojo gets a win in the tournament, that will continue to be a big missing line on his resume.

The crapshoot stuff is a red herring.  In five years Wojo has played one NCAA tournament game as the higher seed.  That's the problem.

79Warrior

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4080
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #147 on: November 25, 2019, 03:17:51 PM »
Steve Lavin was a brilliant coach...cuz he won a few games in March.

In his time at UCLA, from 1996 to 2003, he compiled a record of 145–78.
From 1989 to 2002 as an assistant and head coach, Lavin participated in 13 consecutive NCAA tournament appearances.
During Lavin's tenure as a head coach, he was one of only two coaches in the country to lead a team to five NCAA Regional Semifinals (Sweet 16's) in six seasons - the other coach being Duke's Mike Krzyzewski.
Lavin's record at UCLA in the first and second rounds of the NCAA tournament was 10-1. His winning percentage (90.9%) in the first two rounds is second only to Dean Smith in NCAA Tournament history.
Lavin is the only college coach to have defeated the No. 1 team in the country in four consecutive collegiate seasons: Stanford in 2000 and 2001, Kansas in 2002 and Arizona in 2003.
Lavin guided UCLA to six consecutive seasons of 20 or more wins, as well as six consecutive NCAA tournament appearances.[5]
As head coach at UCLA, Lavin and his staff recruited and signed the No. 1 rated recruiting class in the country in 1998 and 2001.[citation needed] Lavin signed seven McDonald's High School All-Americans.
Thirteen of Lavin's former UCLA players became roster members of NBA teams: Trevor Ariza, Matt Barnes, Baron Davis, Dan Gadzuric, Ryan Hollins, Jason Kapono, Earl Watson, Jerome Moiso, Charles O'Bannon, Jelani McCoy, Toby Bailey, Dijon Thompson, and J.R. Henderson.


dgies9156

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4022
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #148 on: November 25, 2019, 04:27:21 PM »
OK, a couple of rebuttal observations and then I'll sit back and read:

1)  From what I have seen so far this year, Brother Goose is basically right. The leading edge indicators after four games show a team that's going to struggle on offense, get beat on the boards and have their best scorer double-teamed most of the time. I noted earlier, beating Marquette means taking Markus out of his game and making everyone else beat you.

2) Things can change, I agree, and there's enough examples of this over the years to suggest the sample size could be skewed. A burst out over the next 10 days and a lot of us may be feeling differently. But this team has yet to put together 40 minutes of solid basketball. Indeed, the best 20 minutes it played in a long time was the 20 minutes where it caught and then beat Purdue. That's it.

3) I get that Wojo's strategy in the Robert Morris game was to force the rest of the team into doing things they don't want to do. The positive is, it worked. The negative is that despite being an experienced team, Wojo had to risk a possible humiliation at the hands of a team that could not beat University of Illinois-Chicago. I suppose that's what games like Robert Morris are for but good grief, it's like Halloween man.

4) One of the things that I think would serve Wojo well would be to find a former D1 head coach and have him come in either as an assistant or as a well paid consultant. Someone has to assume responsibility for in-game adjustments and has to somehow introduce Wojo to alternative offensive theories.

Ultimately, I'm OK if I'm wrong. I want us to be feared again. But like a lot of people in here, I'm scared at what I see. I'm candidly scared at what I am seeing but, hopefully, someone will be calling me out in a few weeks!

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22055
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: A win is a win is a win is a win
« Reply #149 on: November 25, 2019, 05:10:04 PM »
The crapshoot stuff is a red herring.  In five years Wojo has played one NCAA tournament game as the higher seed.  That's the problem.

I think this part of the disconnect between the "Fire Wojo" crowd and the "Keep Wojo" crowd. One looks at the whole five years, the other looks the last three.

Personal opinion: Once it was confirmed that 3/4 of the members of the 2014 class were decommitting, I anticipated that it would take three years for us to get a tournament worthy team. Maybe a great coach could have done it in two, but I don't think the ghost of Al McGuire with Coach K and Jay Wright as assistants could have gotten to the tournament in year one. I had no expectations the first two years.

Since those two years, we have gone NCAA 10, NIT 2, NCAA 5. Not great but certainly not bad. If we add another NCAA single digit seed this season, that's a solid four year cycle. Add a great recruiting class and I'm optimistic.
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


 

feedback