collapse

* Stud of Colorado Game

Tyler Kolek

21 points, 5 rebounds,
11 assists, 1 steal,
40 minutes

2023-24 Season SoG Tally
Kolek11
Ighodaro6
Jones, K.6
Mitchell2
Jones, S.1
Joplin1

'22-23
'21-22 * '20-21 * '19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

2024 Coaching Carousel by the eagle
[Today at 06:05:16 PM]


2024 Transfer Portal by Scoop Snoop
[Today at 05:36:13 PM]


2024 NCAA Tournament Thread by Frenns Liquor Depot
[Today at 04:57:21 PM]


Sweet 16 presser by MuMark
[Today at 04:40:13 PM]


Dallas bars tonite by BrewCity83
[Today at 04:40:04 PM]


Where is Marquette? by Dr. Blackheart
[Today at 04:38:52 PM]


10 years after “Done Deal” … It’s Happening! by The Sultan of Semantics
[Today at 03:24:51 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: NC State

Marquette
81
Marquette vs

NC State

Date/Time: Mar 29, 2024, 6:09 pm
TV: CBS
Schedule for 2023-24
Colorado
77

Author Topic: Oh, how the worm can turn.  (Read 47850 times)

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #275 on: September 19, 2019, 10:29:16 PM »
Fischer was more of a Crean leftover, he had a semester of practice under Buzz.

Left Crean to play for Buzz = Buzz leftover.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #276 on: September 19, 2019, 10:34:40 PM »
Interesting.  According to this objective ranking, Wojo’s best season was the year three of “Buzz’s leftovers” were seniors and played important roles on the team.  Yep, Buzz truly left a bare cupboard.

If the best thing you can say about the cupboard is that they "played important roles" as seniors on a team that earned a 10 seed...
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #277 on: September 19, 2019, 10:42:44 PM »
+1

Why is “Wojo got better every year” stated as a fact?  Wojo made the dance in year 3, and missed it in year 4.  It seems like he got worse once Buzz’s leftovers were no longer on the team.

College basketball goes in cycles. Teams have up years, teams have down years. If you're doing it right, you have at least two up years to every down year. Year 4 was always going to be a down year due to how many people were graduating. The last time that many players graduated was Wojo's 1st year and they had a sub .500 record. Next down year was year 4 and they just missed the dance. That's improvement. Next down year is next year. Goal should be to still make the tournament despite losing Markus, Ed, Jayce, and Sacar. As long as each cycle is getting better you're improving.
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9876
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #278 on: September 19, 2019, 11:00:12 PM »
Left Crean to play for Buzz = Buzz leftover.

More like "Left Crean because homesickness; came to Marquette because close to home."

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #279 on: September 19, 2019, 11:03:30 PM »
If the best thing you can say about the cupboard is that they "played important roles" as seniors on a team that earned a 10 seed...

I know "bare cupboard" is an accepted "fact" around here but the roster Wojo inherited had seven (7)  rsci top100 players on it. One senior (#81), one junior (#82) four sophomores (#30, #54, #59, #71) and one freshman (#75).

Four left before they completed eligibility, one struggled with injuries - so some mitigating circumstances. But how many top 100 guys does a new MU coach generally inherit?

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #280 on: September 19, 2019, 11:06:27 PM »
More like "Left Crean because homesickness; came to Marquette because close to home."

More like "Hated the culture at Indiana".

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #281 on: September 19, 2019, 11:08:53 PM »
This is a no good, very bad take. Perhaps you should take a second look at that year three roster.

Please explain.

Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9876
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #282 on: September 19, 2019, 11:09:30 PM »
More like "Hated the culture at Indiana".

k

Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9876
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #283 on: September 19, 2019, 11:12:24 PM »
Please explain.

You're a smart guy. I'm sure you can Google the roster, review the minutes played, leading scorers, advanced stats, etc., and figure it out.

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #284 on: September 19, 2019, 11:14:35 PM »
College basketball goes in cycles. Teams have up years, teams have down years. If you're doing it right, you have at least two up years to every down year. Year 4 was always going to be a down year due to how many people were graduating. The last time that many players graduated was Wojo's 1st year and they had a sub .500 record. Next down year was year 4 and they just missed the dance. That's improvement. Next down year is next year. Goal should be to still make the tournament despite losing Markus, Ed, Jayce, and Sacar. As long as each cycle is getting better you're improving.
[/quotes


One "up" year is a cycle that's followed by a "down" year? Not at any successful program I've ever seen. Cycles, maybe. Cycles that last one year? No way.

Sorry - misread - your cycles are 2 up, one down. I don't see year#2 in the Wojo regime as part of an up cycle. Our Pomeroy ranking was virtually the same as the previous year - in the 90s.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 11:30:18 PM by Lennys Tap »

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #285 on: September 19, 2019, 11:23:13 PM »
You're a smart guy. I'm sure you can Google the roster, review the minutes played, leading scorers, advanced stats, etc., and figure it out.

See your point - Duane role was limited (injuries) and Fischer's role decreased as the season went on.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #286 on: September 20, 2019, 12:51:14 AM »
I know "bare cupboard" is an accepted "fact" around here but the roster Wojo inherited had seven (7)  rsci top100 players on it. One senior (#81), one junior (#82) four sophomores (#30, #54, #59, #71) and one freshman (#75).

Four left before they completed eligibility, one struggled with injuries - so some mitigating circumstances. But how many top 100 guys does a new MU coach generally inherit?

When Wojo was hired, which do you think was a more valuable indicator of talent? Juan Anderson's RSCI ranking from 3 years ago? Or Juan's three year career at Marquette? Cause I think the latter tells you a lot more about how good the player actually was. Same goes for Steve Taylor, Jajuan Johnson, Luke Fischer, and the rest.

Wojo inherited a team that missed the NIT....then lost 5 of its top 6 players in terms of minutes played....and the 1 was Derrick Wilson.
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


Shooter McGavin

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2678
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #287 on: September 20, 2019, 04:45:29 AM »
College basketball goes in cycles. Teams have up years, teams have down years. If you're doing it right, you have at least two up years to every down year. Year 4 was always going to be a down year due to how many people were graduating. The last time that many players graduated was Wojo's 1st year and they had a sub .500 record. Next down year was year 4 and they just missed the dance. That's improvement. Next down year is next year. Goal should be to still make the tournament despite losing Markus, Ed, Jayce, and Sacar. As long as each cycle is getting better you're improving.

Way too reasonable take on the situation.  This will not register with the wojo haters.

Small Orange Soda

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #288 on: September 20, 2019, 07:03:53 AM »
Way too reasonable take on the situation.  This will not register with the wojo haters.

People who think going from the NCAA tournament to the NIT is improving: Reasonable.

People who don't: Wojo Haters.

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #289 on: September 20, 2019, 07:39:44 AM »
When Wojo was hired, which do you think was a more valuable indicator of talent? Juan Anderson's RSCI ranking from 3 years ago? Or Juan's three year career at Marquette? Cause I think the latter tells you a lot more about how good the player actually was. Same goes for Steve Taylor, Jajuan Johnson, Luke Fischer, and the rest.

Wojo inherited a team that missed the NIT....then lost 5 of its top 6 players in terms of minutes played....and the 1 was Derrick Wilson.

He inherited a freshman (Sandy Cohen) who was talented and left. Four sophomores who were talented - JJJ, uber talented but never developed, Fish, who actually regressed, Duane, who had some injuries and left and Deonte, who was the best of them all but left. One junior, Steve Taylor - solid but left. And one senior (Juan) who never fulfilled his promise.

So, lots of excuses (some valid) but still seven (7) rsci top 100 guys. No new MU coach ever inherited nearly that many. So not a totally bare cupboard like some suggest.

Herman Cain

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12799
  • 9-9-9
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #290 on: September 20, 2019, 07:48:33 AM »
When Wojo was hired, which do you think was a more valuable indicator of talent? Juan Anderson's RSCI ranking from 3 years ago? Or Juan's three year career at Marquette? Cause I think the latter tells you a lot more about how good the player actually was. Same goes for Steve Taylor, Jajuan Johnson, Luke Fischer, and the rest.

Wojo inherited a team that missed the NIT....then lost 5 of its top 6 players in terms of minutes played....and the 1 was Derrick Wilson.
Juan has been invited to the Warriors training camp this season.......  8-)
Winning is overrated. The only time it is really important is in surgery and war.
                       ---Al McGuire

hairy worthen

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1515
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #291 on: September 20, 2019, 07:52:55 AM »
College basketball goes in cycles. Teams have up years, teams have down years. If you're doing it right, you have at least two up years to every down year. Year 4 was always going to be a down year due to how many people were graduating. The last time that many players graduated was Wojo's 1st year and they had a sub .500 record. Next down year was year 4 and they just missed the dance. That's improvement. Next down year is next year. Goal should be to still make the tournament despite losing Markus, Ed, Jayce, and Sacar. As long as each cycle is getting better you're improving.

Now there is some world class rationalization. Well done.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #292 on: September 20, 2019, 08:10:20 AM »
Juan has been invited to the Warriors training camp this season.......  8-)

You'll notice the sentence you quoted said how good Juan Anderson was. Players do improve after they graduate.
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #293 on: September 20, 2019, 08:16:21 AM »
He inherited a freshman (Sandy Cohen) who was talented and left. Four sophomores who were talented - JJJ, uber talented but never developed, Fish, who actually regressed, Duane, who had some injuries and left and Deonte, who was the best of them all but left. One junior, Steve Taylor - solid but left. And one senior (Juan) who never fulfilled his promise.

So, lots of excuses (some valid) but still seven (7) rsci top 100 guys. No new MU coach ever inherited nearly that many. So not a totally bare cupboard like some suggest.

So "talented" for you means that they were ranked highly out of high school. All those RSCI numbers tell me is that Buzz recruited a lot of overranked freshmen, which was already a habit for him (Jamail Jones, Eric Williams, Jamal Ferguson....etc)

Wojo took over a team that missed the NIT, lost 5 of its top 6 (the 1 being Derrick Wilson), and only had 1 incoming freshman left in its class (the 3rd best one). No MU coach since KO inherited less.
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #294 on: September 20, 2019, 08:18:44 AM »
Now there is some world class rationalization. Well done.

Not rationalizing at all. Other than the one and one factories of Kentucky and Duke that is how college basketball works for winning programs. 2-3 good years followed by a down year.
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


Its DJOver

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3004
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #295 on: September 20, 2019, 08:19:57 AM »
He inherited a freshman (Sandy Cohen) who was talented and left. Four sophomores who were talented - JJJ, uber talented but never developed, Fish, who actually regressed, Duane, who had some injuries and left and Deonte, who was the best of them all but left. One junior, Steve Taylor - solid but left. And one senior (Juan) who never fulfilled his promise.

So, lots of excuses (some valid) but still seven (7) rsci top 100 guys. No new MU coach ever inherited nearly that many. So not a totally bare cupboard like some suggest.

Luke sitting out due to transfer rules aside, if they were so talented why couldn't Buzz (generally regarded as a better coach) win with them? 

Galway Eagle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 10461
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #296 on: September 20, 2019, 08:20:31 AM »
He inherited a freshman (Sandy Cohen) who was talented and left. Four sophomores who were talented - JJJ, uber talented but never developed, Fish, who actually regressed, Duane, who had some injuries and left and Deonte, who was the best of them all but left. One junior, Steve Taylor - solid but left. And one senior (Juan) who never fulfilled his promise.

So, lots of excuses (some valid) but still seven (7) rsci top 100 guys. No new MU coach ever inherited nearly that many. So not a totally bare cupboard like some suggest.

If your argument is all about RSCI guys that's weak as can be. Why don't you put together a team of E Williams, Jamail Jones, Steve Taylor, Juan Anderson, Junior Cadougan against Jae Crowder, DJO, Jimmy Butler, Dwight Buycks, Lazar Hayward.

RSCI means nothing once they've gotten to college and shown they were vastly over/under rated
Maigh Eo for Sam

Cheeks

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6045
  • Hall of Fame Hugger
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #297 on: September 20, 2019, 09:59:09 AM »
I know "bare cupboard" is an accepted "fact" around here but the roster Wojo inherited had seven (7)  rsci top100 players on it. One senior (#81), one junior (#82) four sophomores (#30, #54, #59, #71) and one freshman (#75).

Four left before they completed eligibility, one struggled with injuries - so some mitigating circumstances. But how many top 100 guys does a new MU coach generally inherit?

Here we go again....should we look to see how some of those top 100 RSCI players turned out over the years?  Erik Williams.  Juan.  Steve Taylor. Sandy Cohen.  Etc etc Just because you land there doesn't mean you should, or doesn't mean the recruiting "experts" totally messed up. 
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 10:07:28 AM by Cheeks »
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Galway Eagle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 10461
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #298 on: September 20, 2019, 10:02:54 AM »
Here we go again....should we look to see how some of those top 100 RSCI players turned out over the years?  Erik Williams.  Fulce.  Steve Taylor.  Etc etc Just because you land there doesn't mean you should, or doesn't mean the recruiting "experts" totally messed up.

Fulce?
Maigh Eo for Sam

Cheeks

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6045
  • Hall of Fame Hugger
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #299 on: September 20, 2019, 10:06:24 AM »
Fulce?

Fixed.  I meant Juan not Joe.

Just to show how absurd these rankings can be......the ultimate crapshoot.....Matt Heldt 96 RSCI.  Sam Hauser 94 RSCI.

They are dependent on the talent level of that particular class.  A 60th rated guy one year could be 90th the following year or 30th depending on the talent levels of that crop of talent.  Plus you get into so much subjectivity.  I've said before, the RSCI is fine directionally and normally very good for the top of the top, but once  you get past a certain number (20's or 30's), the subjectivity factor looms ever larger.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 10:10:57 AM by Cheeks »
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

 

feedback