California to pass bill called "fair pay to play act"...to compensate players

[Benny B]

Imma gonna leave this here, because if you think about it, it's exactly where it belongs.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/12/us/tennesse-bullied-boy-scholarship-trnd/index.html

University has already sold 50,000 t-shirts based on the kid's original design.  Kid gets nothing except a scholarship; although the profits are going to a charitable organization.


Serious Question: Would anyone feel any differently about this if, in lieu of compensating the student-athletes, universities instead donated whatever they would be compensating - be that a fixed amount per player, a sliding scale based on performance, or a percentage of overall program profits - to a charitable organization?

[TheyWereCones]

I'm not sure how many more times I can say this in the same way but they are OPTING IN.  They VOLUNTARILY choose to sign on the dotted line and agree to these terms.  What is being promoted is forcing an individual organization to change its rules, which most libertarian-types would be very against.  So, whether you agree with it or not, you'd have to be deliberately obtuse to not understand this...that athletes already have the ability to sell their likeness in the free market and why some are saying this change is more of a liberal thing than a conservative one since it's going after the rules & regulations of one organization.  All they have to do is not voluntarily sign up to play college basketball.

[Cheeks]

I'm not sure how many more times I can say this in the same way but they are OPTING IN.  They VOLUNTARILY choose to sign on the dotted line and agree to these terms.  What is being promoted is forcing an individual organization to change its rules, which most libertarian-types would be very against.  So, whether you agree with it or not, you'd have to be deliberately obtuse to not understand this...that athletes already have the ability to sell their likeness in the free market and why some are saying this change is more of a liberal thing than a conservative one since it's going after the rules & regulations of one organization.  All they have to do is not voluntarily sign up to play college basketball.

Yup.  There are alternatives.  These guys keep saying free market and market place decide....then let that happen.  Let another avenue open up more of those opportunities.  Of course those advocating for this really don't want free market or that would be first on their list of options.

[Shooter McGavin]

Agree with Benny's post completely and I admit how selfish this sounds.  Would hate to see the MU basketball go the way of the MU football program. 

[brewcity77]

I'm not sure how many more times I can say this in the same way but they are OPTING IN.  They VOLUNTARILY choose to sign on the dotted line and agree to these terms.  What is being promoted is forcing an individual organization to change its rules, which most libertarian-types would be very against.  So, whether you agree with it or not, you'd have to be deliberately obtuse to not understand this...that athletes already have the ability to sell their likeness in the free market and why some are saying this change is more of a liberal thing than a conservative one since it's going after the rules & regulations of one organization.  All they have to do is not voluntarily sign up to play college basketball.

This same argument has been used to support indentured servitude, predatory lending practices, and other systems that take advantage of individuals despite operating within legal systems. Just because a system exists and just because people opted into that system does not make it a good or just system.

A libertarian, by definition, is someone who believes in the doctrine of free will. This system restricts the free will of the individuals involved and the free will of the organizations that would be willing to pay them. I don't believe anyone with a conservative bone in their body would be against the advancement of individual freedoms to protect a national conglomeration of primarily government run organizations.

[TheyWereCones]

By that rationale, my company infringes on my free will to not show up on time, not smoke weed, make sexist remarks, also forces me to earn a specific wage, caps my 401k contributions, only offers me a few benefits packages to choose from, and oh yeah, anything I create while employed becomes the intellectual property of the company.  I can't believe why they would do this to me!

[TheyWereCones]

I think we all know who is on what side at this point.  I get what the other side is saying.  I respect it.  I understand it.  I am fine if people want to push for change.  By all means go for it!  I disagree with it.  So be it.  I think college basketball, as is, is a pretty darn special thing, which is why the Zions of the world decide to still play it against the other options.

[TheyWereCones]

By that rationale, my company infringes on my free will to not show up on time, not smoke weed, make sexist remarks, also forces me to earn a specific wage, caps my 401k contributions, only offers me a few benefits packages to choose from, and oh yeah, anything I create while employed becomes the intellectual property of the company.  I can't believe why they would do this to me!

Oh and how could I forget?  They also restrict those other pesky companies that want to pay me too for related work from engaging with me while I'm employed by them.  Jerks!

[muwarrior69]

I think our school would present better opportunities than UW for basketball players to earn off their likeness. UW's market would be saturated from football players in a smaller media market.

Has anyone donated that much for football to UW?

https://uwbadgers.com/sports/2015/08/21/GEN_2014010135.aspx

Largest private sports donation to date.

Has the late senator ever donated that much to MU for an on campus facility?

I believe there was a 6M donation towards renovating the football stadium.

I think there is plenty of money to support UW athletics, there is 30 million right there and that is more than 20 years ago. Has anyone donated that much for MU athletics?

There is no way MU can compete. Hell, the administration even wouldn't take a 2m donation to change the name back to Warriors.

[cheebs09]

Has anyone donated that much for football to UW?

https://uwbadgers.com/sports/2015/08/21/GEN_2014010135.aspx

Largest private sports donation to date.

Has the late senator ever donated that much to MU for an on campus facility?

I believe there was a 6M donation towards renovating the football stadium.

I think there is plenty of money to support UW athletics, there is 30 million right there and that is more than 20 years ago. Has anyone donated that much for MU athletics?

There is no way MU can compete. Hell, the administration even wouldn't take a 2m donation to change the name back to Warriors.

Wouldn't turning down a $2M donation show we aren't hurting for money that badly?

[StillAWarrior]

On this topic, I also think it is worth noting that it's quite possible that many enthusiastic boosters would be less than enthusiastic about having their support be out in the open...even if it was not a rule violation.  Slipping a kid a few grand in an envelope (or just the proverbial $100 handshake) is quite different than publicly tying your reputation (or your company's reputation) to an 18 year old kid.  Obviously, the truly elite kids will be get theirs.  This is just another reason I think that the sweet, sweet endorsement cash might not be quite as prevalent as some others seem to think.  Also, another reason the under-the-table cash might continue uninterrupted.

[Pakuni]

Has anyone donated that much for football to UW?

https://uwbadgers.com/sports/2015/08/21/GEN_2014010135.aspx

Largest private sports donation to date.

Has the late senator ever donated that much to MU for an on campus facility?

I believe there was a 6M donation towards renovating the football stadium.

I think there is plenty of money to support UW athletics, there is 30 million right there and that is more than 20 years ago. Has anyone donated that much for MU athletics?

There is no way MU can compete. Hell, the administration even wouldn't take a 2m donation to change the name back to Warriors.

I'd imagine donors view giving large amounts to have their name on a building for the next several decades quite a bit differently than for a basketball player who will be around for a year or two.

[WhiteTrash]

I'd imagine donors view giving large amounts to have their name on a building for the next several decades quite a bit differently than for a basketball player who will be around for a year or two.

You think rationally. You do not think like boosters from the ACC,SEC and Big XII. For example: UNC started a $1/2 BILLION fund raising campaign last year for sports.

[MU82]

South Carolina now has similar proposed legislation:

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article235015452.html?

As for some Scoopers' "being a college athlete is a choice" argument, it's specious.

If they want to continue their athletic endeavors, the vast majority of outstanding high school athletes do not have a choice to immediately turn pro overseas or in some North American pro league. The NCAA is a monopoly.

What "choice" did any current Marquette Warrior really have? Not a single one of them, not even Markus, could have been a pro basketball player in Europe or anywhere else coming out of high school. Was their choice, then, to play basketball or not play basketball? That's a ridiculous choice, and I'm quite sure all Scoopers are smart enough to know it. It's like saying nurses could have chosen not to be nurses, so hospitals need not give them a safe working environment.

At many (perhaps most) major universities, there are theater majors, music majors, journalism majors and plenty of others who receive full-ride scholarships for being good at what they do. As I have mentioned before, each editor of the various Marquette student media get them. Every single one of those students own his or her "likeness" and can profit off of it if he or she has the opportunity. I wonder why people argue that athletes shouldn't have the same freedom.

Anyhoo, we have a lot of fun debating this stuff here, but it's gonna happen whether some Scoopers -- and the NCAA -- like it or not.

[brewcity77]

Today's Eye on College Basketball podcast addresses this well. A few things they touch on:

- The California law has language built in to anticipate legal challenges from the NCAA.
- While the player value does derive from going to the university, the value is still there. For contrast, yes, Lebron is worth more because of the NBA, but that doesn't change that he has that value. Just like winning a gold medal or starring in a Academy Award winning movie would increase one's value despite doing it for a country or film company.
- This won't just be the Zions of the world. Yes, they'll get the biggest money, but this will trickle down the roster thanks to local business. They didn't mention video games, but they should have.
- In every way except player compensation, the NCAA is trying to run professional sports programs. They chase TV contracts like professional sports. They pay coaches like professional sports. The facilities, the arenas, the branding is all done how professional sports does it. The ONLY time they cry amateurism is when it comes to player compensation.
- The 2023 date is built in to give the NCAA time but also to force their hand. The NCAA told California they were working on it and to give them time. California answered that the NCAA has had enough time, you're on our timetable now.
- This passed both houses unanimously with Republican and Democratic support. This is not a partisan issue.
- The idea the NCAA seeks a level playing field for all is laughable.

It's a good listen.

[WhiteTrash]

South Carolina now has similar proposed legislation:

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article235015452.html?

As for some Scoopers' "being a college athlete is a choice" argument, it's specious.

If they want to continue their athletic endeavors, the vast majority of outstanding high school athletes do not have a choice to immediately turn pro overseas or in some North American pro league. The NCAA is a monopoly.

What "choice" did any current Marquette Warrior really have? Not a single one of them, not even Markus, could have been a pro basketball player in Europe or anywhere else coming out of high school. Was their choice, then, to play basketball or not play basketball? That's a ridiculous choice, and I'm quite sure all Scoopers are smart enough to know it. It's like saying nurses could have chosen not to be nurses, so hospitals need not give them a safe working environment.

At many (perhaps most) major universities, there are theater majors, music majors, journalism majors and plenty of others who receive full-ride scholarships for being good at what they do. As I have mentioned before, each editor of the various Marquette student media get them. Every single one of those students own his or her "likeness" and can profit off of it if he or she has the opportunity. I wonder why people argue that athletes shouldn't have the same freedom.

Anyhoo, we have a lot of fun debating this stuff here, but it's gonna happen whether some Scoopers -- and the NCAA -- like it or not.

You make some excellent points but don't torpedo your own credibility by equating endorsement payments to students, that already enjoy significant financial and other benefits compared to other students, with people's personal safety in the workplace.

Also, I think it if a cornerstone of the argument for these payments is that DI basketball and football is comparable to college music and theater programs, then never will the two sides agree.

I agree with you that change is coming. I think players will get (more) money. I also think this will have to precipitate additional changes "whether some Scoopers like it or not".

[Galway Eagle]

My dad debated this topic with me yesterday and his take is it will ruin team chemistry. His example was about when John Elway came into the league he threw a pass low to a receiver and in the huddle he gave out to the receiver not diving for the ball. The receivers response was "you're the one making all the money, hit me in the numbers"

While this might work as an incentive to stay at a program, grow your brand and work harder to become a star in basketball. It could actually effect team chemistry in football as no defensive lineman is going to get paid jack. Yeah a kicker could monetize a YouTube channel, a QB and RB will have local endorsements but his theory is it'll create locker room problems with the imbalance.

[Uncle Rico]

My dad debated this topic with me yesterday and his take is it will ruin team chemistry. His example was about when John Elway came into the league he threw a pass low to a receiver and in the huddle he gave out to the receiver not diving for the ball. The receivers response was "you're the one making all the money, hit me in the numbers"

While this might work as an incentive to stay at a program, grow your brand and work harder to become a star in basketball. It could actually effect team chemistry in football as no defensive lineman is going to get paid jack. Yeah a kicker could monetize a YouTube channel, a QB and RB will have local endorsements but his theory is it'll create locker room problems with the imbalance.

Locker room problems never happen without money?  There's a lot of egos involved in all levels of sports. 

[muwarrior69]

Today's Eye on College Basketball podcast addresses this well. A few things they touch on:

- The California law has language built in to anticipate legal challenges from the NCAA.
- While the player value does derive from going to the university, the value is still there. For contrast, yes, Lebron is worth more because of the NBA, but that doesn't change that he has that value. Just like winning a gold medal or starring in a Academy Award winning movie would increase one's value despite doing it for a country or film company.
- This won't just be the Zions of the world. Yes, they'll get the biggest money, but this will trickle down the roster thanks to local business. They didn't mention video games, but they should have.
- In every way except player compensation, the NCAA is trying to run professional sports programs. They chase TV contracts like professional sports. They pay coaches like professional sports. The facilities, the arenas, the branding is all done how professional sports does it. The ONLY time they cry amateurism is when it comes to player compensation.
- The 2023 date is built in to give the NCAA time but also to force their hand. The NCAA told California they were working on it and to give them time. California answered that the NCAA has had enough time, you're on our timetable now.
- This passed both houses unanimously with Republican and Democratic support. This is not a partisan issue.
- The idea the NCAA seeks a level playing field for all is laughable.

It's a good listen.

The Hausers were bitching because Howard was hogging the ball. Can you imagine the letter Wojo would have gotten if Howard was making 10 times the endorsements than they were.

[Uncle Rico]

The Hausers were bitching because Howard was hogging the ball. Can you imagine the letter Wojo would have gotten if Howard was making 10 times the endorsements than they were.

That's why so many Packers hate Aaron Rodgers.  The contract AND endorsements

[Cheeks]

That's why so many Packers hate Aaron Rodgers.  The contract AND endorsements

There are more than you think that do not like him, but for other reasons.  Nevertheless, those are pro athletes, not 17-22 year olds that lack the maturity.  Those others are also on a contract, etc, etc.

Rico, do you acknowledge any flaws that could come up, or is it 100% rainbows and unicorns with zero fallout?

[WhiteTrash]

Rico,

The schtick is getting old. Try some reason and facts rather than snide remarks to support your side of the argument. There are lots of good arguments to be made for paying players.

What is your background? I'm fascinated to know why you hate the NCAA. I assume you played major college sports and were 'screwed' by the NCAA at some point? Your personal story would go much further to illustrate why the NCAA should be disbanded as opposed to the snarky quips.

[Uncle Rico]

Rico,

The schtick is getting old. Try some reason and facts rather than snide remarks to support your side of the argument. There are lots of good arguments to be made for paying players.

What is your background? I'm fascinated to know why you hate the NCAA. I assume you played major college sports and were 'screwed' by the NCAA at some point? Your personal story would go much further to illustrate why the NCAA should be disbanded as opposed to the snarky quips.

My background is irrelevant.  It's simple.  Athletes and all college students should be able to profit off their likeness.  This isn't about Marquette cutting a check to one player. 

The NCAA has perpetuated the myth of amateurism to control and profit off the players.  Major college athletics wouldn't be here without the athletes and in turn, the money pouring into college athletics from television and apparel contracts wouldn't be there to support the non-revenue sports.

If the goal is to retain amateurism, it's simple.  Eliminate athletic scholarships and big money.  That isn't happening.  There will always be haves and have-nots in all levels of sports.  The playing field is NOT level in any sense.  Will schools get left behind?  That's up to them.

We can also get into the academic portion of this as well.  Nobody cares about these kids getting educated.  They care about them winning.  Wojo isn't keeping his job if he graduates 100% of his kids with medical degrees.  He keeps his job if he wins, period. 

If we take off the false veneer of amateurism, we see what we already know, college athletics are a big business built on winning, at all levels

[WhiteTrash]

My background is irrelevant.  It's simple.  Athletes and all college students should be able to profit off their likeness.  This isn't about Marquette cutting a check to one player. 

The NCAA has perpetuated the myth of amateurism to control and profit off the players.  Major college athletics wouldn't be here without the athletes and in turn, the money pouring into college athletics from television and apparel contracts wouldn't be there to support the non-revenue sports.

If the goal is to retain amateurism, it's simple.  Eliminate athletic scholarships and big money.  That isn't happening.  There will always be haves and have-nots in all levels of sports.  The playing field is NOT level in any sense.  Will schools get left behind?  That's up to them.

We can also get into the academic portion of this as well.  Nobody cares about these kids getting educated.  They care about them winning.  Wojo isn't keeping his job if he graduates 100% of his kids with medical degrees.  He keeps his job if he wins, period. 

If we take off the false veneer of amateurism, we see what we already know, college athletics are a big business built on winning, at all levels

Lot's of good stuff here. Significantly more persuasive than your previous posts that seemed to be angry rants and dismissive of any fallout from the changes coming.

If and when the changes come that you make a compelling argument should, there will be additional "shoes to drop". Agreed? I think that is what is most interesting.

Although it has been touched upon lightly in the past; it appears to me that the IRS will be playing a huge role in how all of this plays out.

If this plays out to a logical conclusion of players receiving compensation for the revenues they generate, they receive endorsement money and the colleges continue to 'profit' from these two sports, can anyone explain to me how this differs in any meaningful way from pro sports? The IRS (and state revenue departments) will have no choice but to treat these colleges like the Milwaukee Bucks or Yankees or Phoenix University. 

That result will be devastating to the educational mission of those colleges & universities.

Just my opinion but I think we'll see the "Badger Football Team" presented by the University of Wisconsin sooner than later. And to your point, the charade of education will be eliminated because few if any will be students of the schools.   

[Uncle Rico]

Lot's of good stuff here. Significantly more persuasive than your previous posts that seemed to be angry rants and dismissive of any fallout from the changes coming.

If and when the changes come that you make a compelling argument should, there will be additional "shoes to drop". Agreed? I think that is what is most interesting.

Although it has been touched upon lightly in the past; it appears to me that the IRS will be playing a huge role in how all of this plays out.

If this plays out to a logical conclusion of players receiving compensation for the revenues they generate, they receive endorsement money and the colleges continue to 'profit' from these two sports, can anyone explain to me how this differs in any meaningful way from pro sports? The IRS (and state revenue departments) will have no choice but to treat these colleges like the Milwaukee Bucks or Yankees or Phoenix University. 

That result will be devastating to the educational mission of those colleges & universities.

Just my opinion but I think we'll see the "Badger Football Team" presented by the University of Wisconsin sooner than later. And to your point, the charade of education will be eliminated because few if any will be students of the schools.

I'm not naive enough to think there won't be any other changes, large or small.  The rise of college athletics have been built on the back of the athletes.  I haven't advocated the school paying players.  It's about players earning because of their talents. 

As far as the IRS, yes, they'll get their share.  They always do and I believe they should.  But it'll be from those earning a check.

Universities have options.  If their main concern is their educational mission, I've never understood how that matches with what college sports have become.  And that's at all levels.  We can spend days finding malfeasance from all levels