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Author Topic: Well that was a waste  (Read 12130 times)

Lennys Tap

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #350 on: September 10, 2019, 10:21:40 PM »
Link:
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200SB419

Contrary to how it's been described here, the bill does not prohibit suspensions, removals or other disciplinary consequences. It prohibits out-of-school suspensions.
I'd like to think most reasonable people can agree that an 11-year-old with behavioral issues is better off getting whatever help he/she needs from professionals in a structured environment than sitting at home playing Call of Duty and falling further behind on school work.

https://edsource.org/2019/california-to-ban-pushing-students-out-of-school-for-disruptive-behavior/617326

Thanks for linking the actual legislation and another article on it.

I would agree with you (as you frame it) but would be interested to hear Jerry Brown's reasoning (as a counterpoint) for vetoing this legislation (or something very close to it) twice. He doesn't impress me as a no tolerance guy.

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #351 on: September 10, 2019, 10:21:52 PM »
The only thing I saw on this was the article Chico linked.

Is there a link to the actual legislation available? If not, do you know what punishments are being substituted for suspensions? Any idea why Gov Brown vetoed this legislation twice? He doesn't impress me as being a hard liner.

I would be happy to explain.  Another bright bulb in Sacramento tried to expand from K to 12, and later only K to 8th....he vetoed them as he should have.  So they’re back into the we will go it slowly approach and still accomplish their goals over a longer period of time. 

“Teachers and principals are on the front lines of educating our children and are in the best position to make decisions about order and discipline in the classrooms,” Brown said in the veto message he issued on Sunday.

There is one reason why this whole movement is even happening, but we’re not allowed to talk about it anymore...a simple search explains it pretty well.
"It's a crapshoot.  You have to be lucky."
Head Coach Roy Williams

jesmu84

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #352 on: September 10, 2019, 11:03:06 PM »
So, the whole argument over the last few pages is about certain areas/schools putting an end to out of school suspensions?

Punishments are still in place, yes? And kids with behavior issues are still being removed from the classrooms, yes?

So... What's the problem?

forgetful

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #353 on: September 10, 2019, 11:13:54 PM »
Forgetful,

Respectfully disagree. Removing chronically disruptive students from the classroom has several benefits. Teachers can teach and students can learn in at least a relatively peaceful environment. Other potential disruptors may be deterred when they see the consequences.

Re your junk food analogy, I think it's more like letting a child who wants to eat junk food (and who is allowed to by his parents) to eat junk food but not allow him or her to run the cafeteria.

I see your point. I was simplifying it a bit too much, and I was specifically referring to "out of school" suspensions.  I was also more specifically referring to how they are detrimental in certain disadvantaged communities, where there is little direction and support at home.

As I understand the law, they realized that the out of school suspensions were largely hitting specific demographics that were specifically harmed from this type of punishment, and where alternative punishments, up to and including in school suspensions, would be more effective.

Obviously no rule is perfect. And agreed. My junk food analogy was not particularly apt.

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #354 on: September 11, 2019, 12:09:23 AM »
So, the whole argument over the last few pages is about certain areas/schools putting an end to out of school suspensions?

Punishments are still in place, yes? And kids with behavior issues are still being removed from the classrooms, yes?

So... What's the problem?

That’s part of it, but not all of it....this is just the slow drip start here...in a few years it will be K-8, then high school which was the intention all along....slowly but surely.  And no, you are not fully correct on the punishment removal either.  What’s the problem?  It will backfire just like letting the prisoners out a few years ago massively backfired despite the pinky promises made.  The same reason this Calif legislation on paying players for their likeness will not work either....pinky promises and all from th people who passed and haven’t one clue.
"It's a crapshoot.  You have to be lucky."
Head Coach Roy Williams

jesmu84

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #355 on: September 11, 2019, 08:07:08 AM »
That’s part of it, but not all of it....this is just the slow drip start here...in a few years it will be K-8, then high school which was the intention all along....slowly but surely.  And no, you are not fully correct on the punishment removal either.  What’s the problem?  It will backfire just like letting the prisoners out a few years ago massively backfired despite the pinky promises made.  The same reason this Calif legislation on paying players for their likeness will not work either....pinky promises and all from th people who passed and haven’t one clue.

So you're against the possible future issues. Slippery slope argument

But currently, and as written, I think I'm correct?

Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #356 on: September 11, 2019, 08:07:51 AM »
That’s part of it, but not all of it....this is just the slow drip start here...in a few years it will be K-8, then high school which was the intention all along....slowly but surely.  And no, you are not fully correct on the punishment removal either.  What’s the problem?  It will backfire just like letting the prisoners out a few years ago massively backfired despite the pinky promises made.  The same reason this Calif legislation on paying players for their likeness will not work either....pinky promises and all from th people who passed and haven’t one clue.

This is classic Cheeks.
1. Fires off misleading post about how terrible something is.
2. Facts are presented showing Cheeks' post is misleading and/or wrong and the thing drawing his outrage isn't nearly as terrible as he claims.
3. Cheeks inserts red herrings (prisons?) and shifts to slippery slope mode, admitting the thing he was so outraged over may not be so terrible, but it will surely lead to 'XYZ' and 'XYZ' most certainly will be terrible.

Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #357 on: September 11, 2019, 08:09:13 AM »
There is one reason why this whole movement is even happening, but we’re not allowed to talk about it anymore...a simple search explains it pretty well.

Is the Cabal of Elites behind this too?

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #358 on: September 11, 2019, 08:27:37 AM »
exactly my sentiments cheeko.  there are so many ways the education people can play this.  first, they sound so level headed and reasoned.  you know, the dr spock approach to teaching.  second, the school systems get paid per body in the chairs.  third, they have their scapegoat when schmit hits the fan-but but but our hands are tied and we have to take all these kids that the private schools don't have to wa wa wa wa

     big reasons why private schools are more successful from an educational standpoint.  still wonder why "they" don't want choice schools even though their constituents have been screamin for them?

Right you are....150,000 school days missed from kids being punks and suspended...that means the schools don’t get their $$$$$$.

The Charter School Development Center opposed the law.   Incidentally, students in grades 5-8 also cannot be suspended for the next five years, but not permanent until....well....they make it permanent the next time around.  I vote to put retired nuns in these schools and issue them all a ruler and a yardstick and watch the bad behavior take a surprising turn for the better.  At back to school night last night at my daughter’s high school, the teachers were pissed and happy....happy they are not yet under this silliness, but pissed knowing it is coming eventually.  Parents that have kids in the middle school across the street from the high school having to deal with two different disciplinary approaches.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 08:52:27 AM by Cheeks »
"It's a crapshoot.  You have to be lucky."
Head Coach Roy Williams

ATL MU Warrior

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #359 on: September 11, 2019, 08:38:14 AM »
Right you are....150,000 school days missed from kids being punks and suspended...that means the schools don’t get their $$$$$$.

The Charter School Association opposed the law.   Incidentally, students in grades 5-8 also cannot be suspended for the next five years, but not permanent until....well....they make it permanent the next time around.  I vote to put retired nuns in these schools and issue them all a ruler and a yardstick and watch the bad behavior take a surprising turn for the better.  At back to school night last night at my daughter’s high school, the teachers were pissed and happy....happy they are not yet under this silliness, but pissed knowing it is coming eventually.  Parents that have kids in the middle school across the street from the high school having to deal with two different disciplinary approaches.
?? I didn't realize i got a property tax refund for every day my kids miss school. 

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #360 on: September 11, 2019, 08:55:54 AM »
This is classic Cheeks.
1. Fires off misleading post about how terrible something is.
2. Facts are presented showing Cheeks' post is misleading and/or wrong and the thing drawing his outrage isn't nearly as terrible as he claims.
3. Cheeks inserts red herrings (prisons?) and shifts to slippery slope mode, admitting the thing he was so outraged over may not be so terrible, but it will surely lead to 'XYZ' and 'XYZ' most certainly will be terrible.

Lol

You pined it must be grand because the teachers union didn’t reject it...they didn’t back it either.  You omitted that Charter Schools Development Center opposed it.  Individual teachers, many are not happy.  Those are facts.

Your version of what is or isn’t terrible is an opinion, not a fact.

Not a red herring at all, a dumb decision by them, crime up as a result....this decision also dumb as will ultimately prove out on the athlete decision...oh I have no doubt some will claim victory out of the gate, these decisions usually take some years for the full decay to take root, and then you have to hope there is a way back.

"It's a crapshoot.  You have to be lucky."
Head Coach Roy Williams

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #361 on: September 11, 2019, 08:58:53 AM »
?? I didn't realize i got a property tax refund for every day my kids miss school.

You don’t, but in California, Texas and a few other states the amount of money for schools is tied to attendance.  What happens in Georgia doesn’t mean it happens here in California.

California is one of the few states that do this, amounts to about $45 a day per kid.
"It's a crapshoot.  You have to be lucky."
Head Coach Roy Williams

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #362 on: September 11, 2019, 09:04:20 AM »
So you're against the possible future issues. Slippery slope argument

But currently, and as written, I think I'm correct?

I’m against both...current and slippery slope that will follow.  Interesting to see teachers respond to this in social media and elsewhere....not happy campers...Some using their names, others not out of fear....don’t blame them.

 
"It's a crapshoot.  You have to be lucky."
Head Coach Roy Williams

Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #363 on: September 11, 2019, 09:20:53 AM »
At back to school night last night at my daughter’s high school, the teachers were pissed and happy....happy they are not yet under this silliness, but pissed knowing it is coming eventually.

What a coincidence that teachers used the opportunity of a back-to-school night to share their opinions of a state law that doesn't affect them ... and they just so happened to totally agree with you.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 09:25:44 AM by Pakuni »

TSmith34

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #364 on: September 11, 2019, 09:22:08 AM »
This is classic Cheeks.
1. Fires off misleading post about how terrible something is.
2. Facts are presented showing Cheeks' post is misleading and/or wrong and the thing drawing his outrage isn't nearly as terrible as he claims.
3. Cheeks inserts red herrings (prisons?) and shifts to slippery slope mode, admitting the thing he was so outraged over may not be so terrible, but it will surely lead to 'XYZ' and 'XYZ' most certainly will be terrible.
And Boo Boo bobbles his head in agreement all along the way
"Bigly mentally unstable, believe me.  Sad, unbelievably sad."

TheyWereCones

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #365 on: September 12, 2019, 04:27:50 PM »
Over your initial feelings? No. Someone says something or does something meaningful to you you're going to feel something. Anger, joy, suspicion, boredom, something. But just because you feel that initially, doesn't mean you have to show it, to act on it or even stay feeling that way.

Your initial post said, "Being offended isn't a choice."  I just don't agree with this.  People associate aspects of life as positive or negative, and react accordingly to varying degrees.

If you become vegan and are now offended if I eat chicken wings in front of you, that's your choice.  It's very possible this would not have offended you prior to becoming vegan.  At some point you made a deliberate decision to become vegan.  You then also made a deliberate choice to allow yourself to be offended by people who eat chicken wings in front of you (you could still be vegan and not care what anyone else does even if in front of you).

If you are a white supremacist and a black person moves into your neighborhood, and you are offended, you are allowing yourself to be offended by this.  You are saying "yes" to your own self when your own self is asking, "Should this offend me?"  No one can be offended without their own consent.

If your religion doesn't support gay marriage, is there really nothing you can change about yourself to not allow yourself to be offended by a gay wedding?

Lastly...

https://external-preview.redd.it/hPVrEF39Pv0jlgaX14D1LmH0nm151sQ9DLFOeEw-B7c.jpg?auto=webp&s=15eec7bab52e4409260b4ff47fc39b3a2f51e534
Those could have been guests at her wedding.

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #366 on: September 13, 2019, 10:32:29 AM »
I don't think we're that far apart honestly. I don't know about you but my feelings are always at least a split second faster than my thoughts. I feel something first and then I consider why or if I should feel that way. It then becomes a choice to keep feeling that way or not.

As for your meme,  it's funny and all bit it also dismisses the possibility that someone was justified when they said what they said.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #367 on: September 13, 2019, 12:49:45 PM »
What a coincidence that teachers used the opportunity of a back-to-school night to share their opinions of a state law that doesn't affect them ... and they just so happened to totally agree with you.

I asked them, because we have known many of them for 6 to 8 years.

To say it doesn’t affect them is not true.  If kids are taught to get away with crap at the young grades, what happens when they get to the high school.  Yes, it will impact them and yes, they can have an opinion on it, especially the older ones that have been around the block and concerned.  The junior high is right across the street from the high school and this law covers JR high kids for 5 years as well.
"It's a crapshoot.  You have to be lucky."
Head Coach Roy Williams

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #368 on: September 13, 2019, 12:50:54 PM »
And Boo Boo bobbles his head in agreement all along the way

Like you do with Forgetful, MU82, Jockey, etc. 
"It's a crapshoot.  You have to be lucky."
Head Coach Roy Williams

MU82

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #369 on: September 13, 2019, 01:02:32 PM »
I asked a bunch of teachers stuff, too. Incredibly, I can report here that they agree with my point of view on everything.

I can't prove that, but I want y'all to believe me.
"I slit the sheet, the sheet I slit, and on the slitted sheet I sit."

-- Navin R. Johnson

jesmu84

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #370 on: September 13, 2019, 04:21:34 PM »
I asked them, because we have known many of them for 6 to 8 years.

To say it doesn’t affect them is not true.  If kids are taught to get away with crap at the young grades, what happens when they get to the high school.  Yes, it will impact them and yes, they can have an opinion on it, especially the older ones that have been around the block and concerned.  The junior high is right across the street from the high school and this law covers JR high kids for 5 years as well.

How are they getting Away with it if they're being punished to the full extent of allowable punishments?

Pakuni

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #371 on: September 13, 2019, 04:44:51 PM »
If kids are taught to get away with crap at the young grades, what happens when they get to the high school. 

This is a false, and it remains false no matter how many times you repeat it. Contrary to your repeated lies misstatements, this does not take away teachers' ability to impose consequences, punish students, remove unruly kids from their classrooms or even issue suspensions. All it does it remove one particular form of punishment ... one that has been proven ineffective in curbing misbehavior and detrimental to academic outcomes.

https://news.virginia.edu/content/uva-research-finds-suspending-students-or-out-school-problematic

https://edsource.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Noltemeyer_Ward_2015_Meta-Analysis.pdf

https://www.educationnext.org/how-school-suspensions-affect-student-achievement-philadelphia/

Cheeks

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #372 on: September 13, 2019, 07:26:05 PM »
I asked a bunch of teachers stuff, too. Incredibly, I can report here that they agree with my point of view on everything.

I can't prove that, but I want y'all to believe me.

I don’t really care to be blunt.  I can link to many teachers FaceBook pages and you can read it for yourself to support what I was told directly.  Would you like that....then would you believe?  Of course not.
"It's a crapshoot.  You have to be lucky."
Head Coach Roy Williams

brewcity77

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #373 on: September 13, 2019, 07:28:50 PM »
I don’t really care to be blunt.  I can link to many teachers FaceBook pages and you can read it for yourself to support what I was told directly.  Would you like that....then would you believe?  Of course not.

How about not giving out private pages to complete and total strangers on the Internet so you can feel you "won" some stupid debate? Would those teachers like that? Would they like that you are insinuating you would do that? Of course not.

jesmu84

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Re: Well that was a waste
« Reply #374 on: September 13, 2019, 07:36:00 PM »
I don’t really care to be blunt.  I can link to many teachers FaceBook pages and you can read it for yourself to support what I was told directly.  Would you like that....then would you believe?  Of course not.

If I can link to many teachers pages that show the opposite, what would that mean?