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Author Topic: Crowder & Hayward to HOF  (Read 67681 times)

lawdog77

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #125 on: August 18, 2019, 01:36:33 PM »
You're full of it. One turnover in a 60 possession game is not throwing the game away. You're full of crap. This is just more proof that even SIX YEARS LATER you can't let it go when you're wrong. Especially when everyone who's been around long enough knows this is still a weak mea culpa attempt for your "Choking Dogs" headline on Cracked Sidewalks. Give it a rest.
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Jay Bee

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #126 on: August 18, 2019, 02:05:55 PM »
Whatever. Apples to apples, Buzz's numbers are better than Crean's or Wojo's. Apples to oranges (VPI is ranked 13 spot above MU by US News), his numbers are better too. Those are facts. You making stuff up about "sluff courses" without any evidence is what's meaningless.

But the issue is that the numbers you cited aren't Buzz's numbers, or Crean's, or Wojo's... they include other coaches/players/seasons

BTW, it's sometimes interesting to go through a team's roster and try to figure out what caused the APR score in a given year. Not always that obvious... let's do MU in 2017-18. Our score was 936 -- bad. How 'awful' must things be for such a weak score?...

I'm *guessing* here, but there are only so many options... so it's an educated guess.

I think we can safely figure out that our score was 44 out of 47... yes?

So, 9 guys including Ike at 4/4... so that's 36 of 36.
Then, the unique ones... I would guess are:
Joey Hauser 2 of 2 (second semester enrollee)
Harry Froling 3 of 3 (no retention point in 2nd semester, but not an 0/1 on retention because he went pro)
Haanif Cheatham 1 of 2 (mid-semester transfer in good standing)
Andrew Rowsey 2 of 4 (GUESSING here... but, there are only so many possibilities... if he didn't finish up classes in the second semester, we get hit for 0/2)

That brings you to 44 out of 47. So, our only 0 for x's may have been Haani who transferred and Rowsey, who has a college degree... am I overly troubled by either of these? No. Does it scream 'awful academics' under Wojo? Nah. The specifics matter.

The Rowsey thing would become asking the kid to finish up for compliance-only purposes... if he indeed is a 2 of 4, I'm not overly upset by it.. can't let that become a habit for players, because you'll run into potential APR issues, but... it's not some ugly indictment of Wojo or the program.

PS - just did these calcs quickly, so if there are any other facts that people know of, please post.

We were at 935 the prior year.. hopefully all went / goes well here with the 2018-19 year... can't think of any issues that I know about. May be a perfect score, hey?
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Herman Cain

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #127 on: August 18, 2019, 02:46:57 PM »
But the issue is that the numbers you cited aren't Buzz's numbers, or Crean's, or Wojo's... they include other coaches/players/seasons

BTW, it's sometimes interesting to go through a team's roster and try to figure out what caused the APR score in a given year. Not always that obvious... let's do MU in 2017-18. Our score was 936 -- bad. How 'awful' must things be for such a weak score?...

I'm *guessing* here, but there are only so many options... so it's an educated guess.

I think we can safely figure out that our score was 44 out of 47... yes?

So, 9 guys including Ike at 4/4... so that's 36 of 36.
Then, the unique ones... I would guess are:
Joey Hauser 2 of 2 (second semester enrollee)
Harry Froling 3 of 3 (no retention point in 2nd semester, but not an 0/1 on retention because he went pro)
Haanif Cheatham 1 of 2 (mid-semester transfer in good standing)
Andrew Rowsey 2 of 4 (GUESSING here... but, there are only so many possibilities... if he didn't finish up classes in the second semester, we get hit for 0/2)

That brings you to 44 out of 47. So, our only 0 for x's may have been Haani who transferred and Rowsey, who has a college degree... am I overly troubled by either of these? No. Does it scream 'awful academics' under Wojo? Nah. The specifics matter.

The Rowsey thing would become asking the kid to finish up for compliance-only purposes... if he indeed is a 2 of 4, I'm not overly upset by it.. can't let that become a habit for players, because you'll run into potential APR issues, but... it's not some ugly indictment of Wojo or the program.

PS - just did these calcs quickly, so if there are any other facts that people know of, please post.

We were at 935 the prior year.. hopefully all went / goes well here with the 2018-19 year... can't think of any issues that I know about. May be a perfect score, hey?
So when Rowsey graduated this spring, what year APR does that go into?
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Galway Eagle

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #128 on: August 18, 2019, 02:52:43 PM »
So when Rowsey graduated this spring, what year APR does that go into?

Rowsey graduated a year after he left? 6years to complete a degree seems ridiculous.
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Jay Bee

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #129 on: August 18, 2019, 03:14:52 PM »
So when Rowsey graduated this spring, what year APR does that go into?

I believe you can get 1/0’s in later years. For example, if you had a guy in the 90’s - when the rules were diff btw - come back and graduate in 2019-20, the 2019-20 year gets a 1/0 score for that graduation

The APR is wacko
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Jay Bee

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #130 on: August 18, 2019, 03:19:12 PM »
Thanks for ruining summer, Canada.

79Warrior

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #131 on: August 18, 2019, 03:22:52 PM »
You're full of it. One turnover in a 60 possession game is not throwing the game away. You're full of crap. This is just more proof that even SIX YEARS LATER you can't let it go when you're wrong. Especially when everyone who's been around long enough knows this is still a weak mea culpa attempt for your "Choking Dogs" headline on Cracked Sidewalks. Give it a rest.

I second the motion.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #132 on: August 18, 2019, 04:25:25 PM »
You're full of it. One turnover in a 60 possession game is not throwing the game away. You're full of crap. This is just more proof that even SIX YEARS LATER you can't let it go when you're wrong. Especially when everyone who's been around long enough knows this is still a weak mea culpa attempt for your "Choking Dogs" headline on Cracked Sidewalks. Give it a rest.

+1,567,821,999.

Billy Hoyle

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #133 on: August 18, 2019, 05:09:50 PM »

Btw, to become elite, MU needs a medical school and all the research funds and endowment that go with it. But, we all have rehashed that here a million times. Not gonna happen.

Any way, interesting digression. Congrats to Jae and Lazar!  Their journeys have inspired many.

SLU and Loyola Chicago have medical schools and they’re below us. ND, BC and Fordham don’t have med schools and they’re above us.  And no, it isn’t because they have football!

Lower admission rates, higher alumni giving, more emphasis on research.
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #134 on: August 18, 2019, 05:54:28 PM »
SLU and Loyola Chicago have medical schools and they’re below us. ND, BC and Fordham don’t have med schools and they’re above us.  And no, it isn’t because they have football!

Lower admission rates, higher alumni giving, more emphasis on research.

I am sure there are schools on either side of the issue Billy as Gooo pointed out. But MU hasn't really changed much in 50 years other than the notoriety basketball has brought (a swoon for student recruitment). However, over the next ten years when today's minorities become tomorrow's majorities, MU needs to adapt today for the future.  Elitism isn't the answer.

Maybe one of MU's wealthiest alumni, Jae Crowder, will lead the way in this transition with a major scholarship donation?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 07:08:39 PM by Dr. Blackheart »

Cheeks

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #135 on: August 18, 2019, 07:02:28 PM »
You're full of it. One turnover in a 60 possession game is not throwing the game away. You're full of crap. This is just more proof that even SIX YEARS LATER you can't let it go when you're wrong. Especially when everyone who's been around long enough knows this is still a weak mea culpa attempt for your "Choking Dogs" headline on Cracked Sidewalks. Give it a rest.

LOL.  You know damn well what you and everyone else would say if MU has done, or Wisconsin, or Notre Dame.  You would say it was a choke and so would every other person here.  MU up 7 with less than 2 minutes to play and the ball and lose, especially on the play when all you have to do is stand there and make MU foul you in the final seconds ..you and every one here would say it was a choke. 

When Green Bay lost to the Seahawks, was it because the Seahawks had a great comeback or because Green Bay choked?  Or, because both?  I’m going for both as my answer, the same thing for...Davidson game, great comeback but cannot happen if Davidson doesn’t crap themselves.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

wadesworld

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #136 on: August 18, 2019, 07:13:50 PM »
LOL.  You know damn well what you and everyone else would say if MU has done, or Wisconsin, or Notre Dame.  You would say it was a choke and so would every other person here.  MU up 7 with less than 2 minutes to play and the ball and lose, especially on the play when all you have to do is stand there and make MU foul you in the final seconds ..you and every one here would say it was a choke. 

When Green Bay lost to the Seahawks, was it because the Seahawks had a great comeback or because Green Bay choked?  Or, because both?  I’m going for both as my answer, the same thing for...Davidson game, great comeback but cannot happen if Davidson doesn’t crap themselves.

The difference of course is that Green Bay played horrendously down the stretch while Davidson played great down the stretch.
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #137 on: August 18, 2019, 07:18:23 PM »
The difference of course is that Green Bay played horrendously down the stretch while Davidson played great down the stretch.


"Because some teams choke, Davidson choked."
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brewcity77

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #138 on: August 18, 2019, 07:39:50 PM »
LOL.  You know damn well what you and everyone else would say if MU has done, or Wisconsin, or Notre Dame.  You would say it was a choke and so would every other person here.

At the time, everyone called BS on Choking Dogs because it was BS. And we call BS here because it's BS. You can try to both sides it all you want, not we all know it's a fraud. More importantly, no matter how much the lady doth protest, you know it too.
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Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #139 on: August 18, 2019, 07:41:23 PM »
My dad the basketball fan is rolling in his grave over this discussion. 

Congrats Jae and Lazar.  Two warriors who made some amazing Marquette memories. 

Cheeks

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #140 on: August 18, 2019, 07:44:57 PM »
Whatever. Apples to apples, Buzz's numbers are better than Crean's or Wojo's. Apples to oranges (VPI is ranked 13 spot above MU by US News), his numbers are better too. Those are facts. You making stuff up about "sluff courses" without any evidence is what's meaningless.

No, in fact they aren’t facts.  You couldn’t be more wrong on this subject if you tried.  You don’t seem to get the idea that previous coaches bring in players, and they may graduate or not later under a different coach, and different schools also have different sham majors, classes, etc.....you literally have no idea what you are talking about with this comparison, but I will let others take you apart on it.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Lennys Tap

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #141 on: August 19, 2019, 09:30:44 AM »
No, in fact they aren’t facts.  You couldn’t be more wrong on this subject if you tried.  You don’t seem to get the idea that previous coaches bring in players, and they may graduate or not later under a different coach, and different schools also have different sham majors, classes, etc.....you literally have no idea what you are talking about with this comparison, but I will let others take you apart on it.

Crean's numbers are Crean's numbers since he had been at MU for 3 years before APR calculations began. I guess he gets some of Buzz's numbers and Buzz get some of Wojo's. I bow to JB on details neither you nor I knew.

Returning to "Choking dogs peeing down their legs" part II, you look even worse on this one than on the original. Asserting that all MU fans would dismiss the facts and agree with an obviously biased anti Marquette/Buzz sentiments if the shoe were on the other foot is an insult to everyone with a brain who posts here. We should be used to it. It's what you do.


#UnleashSean

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #142 on: August 19, 2019, 11:32:19 AM »
Rowsey graduated a year after he left? 6years to complete a degree seems ridiculous.

Happens quite often with non student athletes.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #143 on: August 19, 2019, 12:01:04 PM »
Happens quite often with non student athletes.

"Lots of people go to college for 7 years"

"Yeah they're called doctors"
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oldwarrior81

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #144 on: August 19, 2019, 01:03:14 PM »
as the great philosopher Bluto said "Seven years of college down the drain"

Cheeks

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #145 on: August 19, 2019, 01:23:27 PM »
The difference of course is that Green Bay played horrendously down the stretch while Davidson played great down the stretch.

Davidson didn’t play great down the stretch, including a horrific turnover, missed free throw ( they shot well below their average for the game, a team that was believe led the nation or was very high chose that day to piss themselves) , and not defending the only thing that can beat you...the 3 point line.  Other than that, they were great.  LOL.

Which comes back to the part you guys keep missing.  I said it was a great comeback, it was also a choke by Davidson.  Both can happen, in fact they often do.  I was ecstatic we won, went crazy with delight, also thanked Davidson for melting down or it would not have happened.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #146 on: August 19, 2019, 01:27:41 PM »
Crean's numbers are Crean's numbers since he had been at MU for 3 years before APR calculations began. I guess he gets some of Buzz's numbers and Buzz get some of Wojo's. I bow to JB on details neither you nor I knew.

Returning to "Choking dogs peeing down their legs" part II, you look even worse on this one than on the original. Asserting that all MU fans would dismiss the facts and agree with an obviously biased anti Marquette/Buzz sentiments if the shoe were on the other foot is an insult to everyone with a brain who posts here. We should be used to it. It's what you do.

Correct, Crean’s are and he improved them greatly.  Buzz’s are not, which is why you were patently wrong in your “facts” and now you keep getting called out on them.  Just accept it, you were wrong.  You don’t get to ride in day one and suddenly the graduation rates for that year are because of you when you had nothing to do with it.  Look a few years out when you have been there, that’s when YOUR guys start to count and the trends were undeniable.

As for the Crowder Rule, it absolutely needed to be put in place.  Are we really at a point we would keep taking someone that literally has no possible way to graduate...mathematically impossible without adding years?  Somewhere we need some integrity as an academic institution of higher learning....glad they changed the rule for purely common sense reasons.  To Jae, congratulations.  Loopholes exist and loopholes get closed, this one rightly so.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

wadesworld

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #147 on: August 19, 2019, 01:35:02 PM »
Davidson didn’t play great down the stretch, including a horrific turnover, missed free throw ( they shot well below their average for the game, a team that was believe led the nation or was very high chose that day to piss themselves) , and not defending the only thing that can beat you...the 3 point line.  Other than that, they were great.  LOL.

Which comes back to the part you guys keep missing.  I said it was a great comeback, it was also a choke by Davidson.  Both can happen, in fact they often do.  I was ecstatic we won, went crazy with delight, also thanked Davidson for melting down or it would not have happened.

ONE turnover and ONE missed free throws.

Damn.  I stand corrected.  They choked.  Pissed down their leg, even.

Not to mention, not defending the 3 point line?  We were watching a different game.  Marquette hit very well contested, tough 3 pointers.  The only thing more Davidson could have done to prevent the made 3 pointers was to foul, which of course you don't do.
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #148 on: August 19, 2019, 01:54:16 PM »
As for the Crowder Rule, it absolutely needed to be put in place.  Are we really at a point we would keep taking someone that literally has no possible way to graduate...mathematically impossible without adding years?  Somewhere we need some integrity as an academic institution of higher learning....glad they changed the rule for purely common sense reasons.  To Jae, congratulations.  Loopholes exist and loopholes get closed, this one rightly so.

Did you have these same discussions under Crean? Maybe it should be called the Wade Rule?  The Lazar Rule?  Or the Trend Rule? I seem to remember MUAD being taken out of the SA acceptance decision process somewhere under the Crean Era. Crean created a lot of animosity by going around academics to Wild on Wade.

Stop glossing it over as a Buzz issue.  It is inherent in the history of MUBB started by Al. Pat Smith, Bob Lackey, Walton, Whitehead, Johnson, Worthen, Green, etc.  We'll see how these new absolute elite rules play out.

As I have said numerous times, I don't agree with it and I strongly believe it goes against the historical mission of the university. When you are dealing with first generation college kids, there are always cracks that need judgment. It's called the Cracked Sidewalks Rule. 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 02:03:14 PM by Dr. Blackheart »

Lennys Tap

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #149 on: August 19, 2019, 01:54:57 PM »
Correct, Crean’s are and he improved them greatly.  Buzz’s are not, which is why you were patently wrong in your “facts” and now you keep getting called out on them.  Just accept it, you were wrong.  You don’t get to ride in day one and suddenly the graduation rates for that year are because of you when you had nothing to do with it.  Look a few years out when you have been there, that’s when YOUR guys start to count and the trends were undeniable.

As for the Crowder Rule, it absolutely needed to be put in place.  Are we really at a point we would keep taking someone that literally has no possible way to graduate...mathematically impossible without adding years?  Somewhere we need some integrity as an academic institution of higher learning....glad they changed the rule for purely common sense reasons.  To Jae, congratulations.  Loopholes exist and loopholes get closed, this one rightly so.

Crean "improved them", yes - from by far the 2 worst years in Marquette's APR history (years 4 and 5 of his tenure, when all of the players were his. If you want to give him credit for Buzz's first two years and make Buzz responsible for Wojo's first two, fine. Guess what? Buzz's numbers still beat the other two.

Saying you love the Crowder Rule is the equivalent of saying you wish Jae had never been admitted to MU, you don't think he belonged here. And of course we could say the same for D Wade. I would say it for neither, and hope the university look at each recruit's circumstances individually, not with a "one size fits all, no exceptions rule".