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Author Topic: Real MLB Thread  (Read 185460 times)

jesmu84

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2019, 10:02:45 PM »
I don’t. Things can and do change all of the time. None of the three top teams in the division are what I would call strong. The Cardinals biggest challenge is offense and scoring runs. Bullpen is a strength. This season they have been strong against bad teams and close to .500 against winning record teams. It’s not one of their stronger teams. But that doesn’t always guarantee success or no success. Their 2006 team won 83 games (many later in season too) and won the World Series. While, their 2004 and 2005 teams were 105 win type teams and didn’t win a title. Their 2011 title team had a mix.

Many of their fans wish they still had former team exec Jeff Luhnow (Houston) but St. Louis isn’t the kind of franchise that would tank seasons for picks like what happened in Houston and Chicago. They are big on trying to be competitive every year. They need a few big hitters this year. We’ll see what happens. I always felt turning down Francona to hire Matheny a few years back was a mistake as well. But they often find a way to be in the mix many seasons.

 ::)

"Best fans in baseball"
"Play the right way"

Yada yada yada

shoothoops

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2019, 10:43:03 PM »
::)

"Best fans in baseball"
"Play the right way"

Yada yada yada

Those are not things that originated by the team nor its fans. Take it up with some National Media and opponents and their fans and media. That's where those types of things came from. Those bothered by it are often fans of divisional opponents.  All teams have good, bad, indifferent fans. And there are many different ways to win. They've had a lot of success and those types of things come with the territory of any frequently successful team.

Cheeks

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2019, 10:45:09 PM »
Albert Pujols all time hits leader foreign born player achieved tonight.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

buckchuckler

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2019, 11:26:10 PM »
::)

"Best fans in baseball"
"Play the right way"

Yada yada yada

What'd he say that was incorrect?

dgies9156

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2019, 05:56:22 AM »
What'd he say that was incorrect?

Nothing.

St. Louis may not be the absolute best fans in baseball, but its one of the few towns in America where baseball reigns supreme. There's no NFL football (in no small measure because the NFL does not like to be second fiddle to anyone), there's no NBA and only the NHL with which to compete. College sports locally and Missouri? I guess that's what you call Mizzou. The Illini have, lucky them, Lovie!

Cardinal fans aren't like Cub fans. While they know their team won't win every year, they expect everyone from the President of the team to the batboy to try to win. Doing a dump like the Cubs, Marlins, Astros and lots of other teams have done would, as noted elsewhere in this post, be fatal in St. Louis. If any Cardinal general manager sold off the talent, there would not be 1,000 people per night at Busch. The Baltimore Orioles of 2019, with their proud tradition and now awful team, we are definitely not.

To be loveable losers and go 108 years without a World Championship is NOT in our DNA.

Cubs fans, who would turn out 30,000 strong if the team put the Jesse White Tumblers on the field, often diss Cardinal fans for being fair weather fans. "We're real fans who support our team year in and year out," Cub fans often say. "Bahhh," we say back. "We have expectations. Our ballpark used to be one of the seven great pre-cast wonders of the world. The summer heat in St.Louis is miserable. We go for the baseball. We expect good baseball because, candidly, that's most of the sports scene in St. Louis."

cheebs09

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2019, 06:26:19 AM »
Nothing.

St. Louis may not be the absolute best fans in baseball, but its one of the few towns in America where baseball reigns supreme. There's no NFL football (in no small measure because the NFL does not like to be second fiddle to anyone), there's no NBA and only the NHL with which to compete. College sports locally and Missouri? I guess that's what you call Mizzou. The Illini have, lucky them, Lovie!

Cardinal fans aren't like Cub fans. While they know their team won't win every year, they expect everyone from the President of the team to the batboy to try to win. Doing a dump like the Cubs, Marlins, Astros and lots of other teams have done would, as noted elsewhere in this post, be fatal in St. Louis. If any Cardinal general manager sold off the talent, there would not be 1,000 people per night at Busch. The Baltimore Orioles of 2019, with their proud tradition and now awful team, we are definitely not.

To be loveable losers and go 108 years without a World Championship is NOT in our DNA.

Cubs fans, who would turn out 30,000 strong if the team put the Jesse White Tumblers on the field, often diss Cardinal fans for being fair weather fans. "We're real fans who support our team year in and year out," Cub fans often say. "Bahhh," we say back. "We have expectations. Our ballpark used to be one of the seven great pre-cast wonders of the world. The summer heat in St.Louis is miserable. We go for the baseball. We expect good baseball because, candidly, that's most of the sports scene in St. Louis."

I feel like this is Webster’s definition of a fair weather fan.

shoothoops

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2019, 07:43:32 AM »
Nothing.

St. Louis may not be the absolute best fans in baseball, but its one of the few towns in America where baseball reigns supreme. There's no NFL football (in no small measure because the NFL does not like to be second fiddle to anyone), there's no NBA and only the NHL with which to compete. College sports locally and Missouri? I guess that's what you call Mizzou. The Illini have, lucky them, Lovie!

Cardinal fans aren't like Cub fans. While they know their team won't win every year, they expect everyone from the President of the team to the batboy to try to win. Doing a dump like the Cubs, Marlins, Astros and lots of other teams have done would, as noted elsewhere in this post, be fatal in St. Louis. If any Cardinal general manager sold off the talent, there would not be 1,000 people per night at Busch. The Baltimore Orioles of 2019, with their proud tradition and now awful team, we are definitely not.

To be loveable losers and go 108 years without a World Championship is NOT in our DNA.

Cubs fans, who would turn out 30,000 strong if the team put the Jesse White Tumblers on the field, often diss Cardinal fans for being fair weather fans. "We're real fans who support our team year in and year out," Cub fans often say. "Bahhh," we say back. "We have expectations. Our ballpark used to be one of the seven great pre-cast wonders of the world. The summer heat in St.Louis is miserable. We go for the baseball. We expect good baseball because, candidly, that's most of the sports scene in St. Louis."

Respectfully this isn’t accurate and I disagree.

shoothoops

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2019, 07:45:55 AM »
What'd he say that was incorrect?

I didn’t say he was or wasn’t. I merely mentioned the origin of those types of quotes.

MU82

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2019, 08:13:35 AM »
In the NL Central, if the Cards, Cubs or Brewers can put together 2 good weeks -- go 10-3 or the like -- will take total control. And a team that has 2 bad weeks ... probably time to stick a fork in them. Should be an interesting 6 weeks to the finish line.

Cubs would seem to be the pretty heavy favorites with that rotation (before they started giving up 10 runs every other game, anyway) and a solid everyday lineup that includes a former MVP and another near-MVP ... but there's something about the Cardinals that makes me want to pick them.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2019, 08:30:32 AM »
In the NL Central, if the Cards, Cubs or Brewers can put together 2 good weeks -- go 10-3 or the like -- will take total control. And a team that has 2 bad weeks ... probably time to stick a fork in them. Should be an interesting 6 weeks to the finish line.

Cubs would seem to be the pretty heavy favorites with that rotation (before they started giving up 10 runs every other game, anyway) and a solid everyday lineup that includes a former MVP and another near-MVP ... but there's something about the Cardinals that makes me want to pick them.

It's the fans.

wadesworld

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2019, 08:35:37 AM »
It's the fans.

Re: your sig...TT said Devante.  Don't think he was talking about Davante there.
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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2019, 09:02:32 AM »
Re: your sig...TT said Devante.  Don't think he was talking about Davante there.

Per usual, I'm lost.

dgies9156

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2019, 09:05:00 AM »
Respectfully this isn’t accurate and I disagree.

Respectfully, it's OK to disagree but I question what's inaccurate. Specifically:

1) To Cardinal Nation, there is baseball and then .... I guess Blues Hockey right now is really hot.

2) Do you really think Cardinal Nation would tolerate the level of mediocrity that Cub fans have tolerated since the 1940s? We had a couple of bad decades in the 1950s, 1970s and for parts of the 1980s and 1990s. At times in the late 1980s, the team was positively awful. The latter was because the Brewery didn't care after Gussie died. The natives were very restless. The result was new ownership and Tony LaRussa!

3) The Cubs record before 2016 was clear. They were marketed as lovable losers. Check it out. There were some better than average teams (1969, 1984, 1998, 2003, 2007, 2008) but there was a clear lack of sustained success. During the Tribune ownership, the Cubs were a $20 million investment in programming about 160 days a year on WGN-TV and radio. The record was only meaningful if it put more butts in seats, more eyes on WGN and new revenue that met an internal hurdle rate.

4) Cub fans over and over have told me that I was a fair weather fan. If having expectations is fair weather, I plead guilty. But like many Cardinal fans, I've lived and died with the team since my youth. I've been disappointed that the Cardinals have not been in the playoffs since 2015 and that awful divisional series, but I remain hopeful this year's team will break the spell -- and likely lose to the Dodgers!  ;D

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2019, 09:57:26 AM »
Nothing.

St. Louis may not be the absolute best fans in baseball, but its one of the few towns in America where baseball reigns supreme. There's no NFL football (in no small measure because the NFL does not like to be second fiddle to anyone), there's no NBA and only the NHL with which to compete. College sports locally and Missouri? I guess that's what you call Mizzou. The Illini have, lucky them, Lovie!

Cardinal fans aren't like Cub fans. While they know their team won't win every year, they expect everyone from the President of the team to the batboy to try to win. Doing a dump like the Cubs, Marlins, Astros and lots of other teams have done would, as noted elsewhere in this post, be fatal in St. Louis. If any Cardinal general manager sold off the talent, there would not be 1,000 people per night at Busch. The Baltimore Orioles of 2019, with their proud tradition and now awful team, we are definitely not.

To be loveable losers and go 108 years without a World Championship is NOT in our DNA.

Cubs fans, who would turn out 30,000 strong if the team put the Jesse White Tumblers on the field, often diss Cardinal fans for being fair weather fans. "We're real fans who support our team year in and year out," Cub fans often say. "Bahhh," we say back. "We have expectations. Our ballpark used to be one of the seven great pre-cast wonders of the world. The summer heat in St.Louis is miserable. We go for the baseball. We expect good baseball because, candidly, that's most of the sports scene in St. Louis."

This is the very definition of fair weather fan.  Yes, winning teams draw more butts in the seats, but if Cardinal Nation (TM) is as good of a fan base as you claim, they should be there through thick and thin.

Also made an edit to an incorrect sentence.   8-)

Any town that puts that fake-ass cheese on their pizza and claim it's good has no right to judge anyone or anything.

wadesworld

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2019, 10:04:45 AM »
This is the very definition of fair weather fan.  Yes, winning teams draw more butts in the seats, but if Cardinal Nation (TM) is as good of a fan base as you claim, they should be there through thick and thin.

Also made an edit to an incorrect sentence.   8-)

Any town that puts that fake-ass cheese on their pizza and claim it's good has no right to judge anyone or anything.

Their toasted ravioli is pretty dang good though.
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dgies9156

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2019, 12:20:50 PM »
This is the very definition of fair weather fan.  Yes, winning teams draw more butts in the seats, but if Cardinal Nation (TM) is as good of a fan base as you claim, they should be there through thick and thin.

Also made an edit to an incorrect sentence.   8-)

Any town that puts that fake-ass cheese on their pizza and claim it's good has no right to judge anyone or anything.

Name me one team in any sport other than the NFL that draws the same number of fans regardless of whether the team is good or bad.

Perhaps we are misunderstanding something. If ownership takes fans for granted, they pay for it in St. Louis. They don't in Chicago, which is why there was a 108 year World Championship drought. If I'm going to plop $35.00 to $100.00 on a baseball seat and go to the trouble of traveling to the stadium and back, I want at least a reasonable chance my team will win. I know they won't always win -- that's baseball -- but geez, winning makes a fan feel good.

Let me take this away from the Cardinal/Cub rivalry for a moment. Look at Miami. Ostensibly, Miami should be one of the best baseball towns in America. New stadium. Population that has a baseball heritage behind it. Big metro area. But attendance is off-the-charts bad. In fact, the Marlins draw far worse than any other team in baseball. Why? Because every time the team gets good, there's a payroll dump. The fans can't get too excited because as soon as the players get good, they are sold. Derek Jeter et al are badly undercapitalized and that makes talent acquisition -- the raw material of baseball -- almost impossible.

Are the fans in Kansas City fair weather fans? Or are they simply tired of losing 20 out of 24 years?



wadesworld

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2019, 12:54:09 PM »
Name me one team in any sport other than the NFL that draws the same number of fans regardless of whether the team is good or bad.

Perhaps we are misunderstanding something. If ownership takes fans for granted, they pay for it in St. Louis. They don't in Chicago, which is why there was a 108 year World Championship drought. If I'm going to plop $35.00 to $100.00 on a baseball seat and go to the trouble of traveling to the stadium and back, I want at least a reasonable chance my team will win. I know they won't always win -- that's baseball -- but geez, winning makes a fan feel good.

Let me take this away from the Cardinal/Cub rivalry for a moment. Look at Miami. Ostensibly, Miami should be one of the best baseball towns in America. New stadium. Population that has a baseball heritage behind it. Big metro area. But attendance is off-the-charts bad. In fact, the Marlins draw far worse than any other team in baseball. Why? Because every time the team gets good, there's a payroll dump. The fans can't get too excited because as soon as the players get good, they are sold. Derek Jeter et al are badly undercapitalized and that makes talent acquisition -- the raw material of baseball -- almost impossible.

Are the fans in Kansas City fair weather fans? Or are they simply tired of losing 20 out of 24 years?

The Packers.  A ton of college sports teams.  Etc.

Miami has terrible ticket sales because you could go sit inside a baseball stadium 81 times a year or you could go to the beach.  For most people the choice is the beach.  It's the same as sports in LA.  There have been some great pro (Rams) and college (UCLA) teams that have terrible attendance relative to the product on the field.

It's not about the winning as much as it is about the city.  What is there to do in St. Louis in August?  Go see the Cardinals or go see a giant piece of medal.  What is there to do in Green Bay on a Sunday in December?  Go watch the Packers or sit on your couch and watch the Packers.
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shoothoops

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2019, 03:00:56 PM »
Name me one team in any sport other than the NFL that draws the same number of fans regardless of whether the team is good or bad.

Perhaps we are misunderstanding something. If ownership takes fans for granted, they pay for it in St. Louis. They don't in Chicago, which is why there was a 108 year World Championship drought. If I'm going to plop $35.00 to $100.00 on a baseball seat and go to the trouble of traveling to the stadium and back, I want at least a reasonable chance my team will win. I know they won't always win -- that's baseball -- but geez, winning makes a fan feel good.

Let me take this away from the Cardinal/Cub rivalry for a moment. Look at Miami. Ostensibly, Miami should be one of the best baseball towns in America. New stadium. Population that has a baseball heritage behind it. Big metro area. But attendance is off-the-charts bad. In fact, the Marlins draw far worse than any other team in baseball. Why? Because every time the team gets good, there's a payroll dump. The fans can't get too excited because as soon as the players get good, they are sold. Derek Jeter et al are badly undercapitalized and that makes talent acquisition -- the raw material of baseball -- almost impossible.

Are the fans in Kansas City fair weather fans? Or are they simply tired of losing 20 out of 24 years?

Ok. Lots going on in multiple posts. I will start with this one.

Quickly, as I’m sure and some know, the Cardinals have a big following over a long period of time. They have at minimum won every other decade since the 1800’s.  The Cardinals were the first team West of the Mississippi. In the days of radio they had a a home station that could reach most states in the country. When you combine these things you get more than just a local following. Some other teams have it in other markets/sports.

1) The Cardinals had the highest local television ratings in MLB this past year. They are frequently strong.

2) They’ve had at least 3 million fans (many 3.5) in 20 of the last 21 seasons (2.9).

3) Many of the fans in attendance weekend summers, are from all over the country and beyond, including but not limited to the 8 states bordering Missouri.

Modern day Cardinal fans have not held the team accountable very much in person or on tv during mediocre seasons.  The team knows as long as it is competitive, in the mix, even if that means mediocre, people will go to games, people will watch. I wouldn’t blame anyone for not paying the extra money to watch on tv, or in person, concessions, travel, all kinds of costs of today’s game, with 81 home games. If your team stinks, it doesn’t make you a fair weather fan for not going to some games. If the Cardinals keep missing the playoffs over time, their numbers will change. that won’t change as fast and as much as some other markets because of their long history, recent and distant. But it would change. The money era of sports means every fan market wants to see a winner on the field to justify costs. 

The biggest reason the Cardinals and Cubs are rivals, is repeated competitive play over a long period of time. That’s how rivalries develop regardless of geography. So despite St. Louis having far greater historical team success, the teams play often, and over thousands of games, the all tome head to head record is pretty close to even. The Cubs of course get big numbers of out of town fans for their weekend summer games. WGN brought them a generation of added non-local fans from around the country as well.



shoothoops

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2019, 03:13:13 PM »
The Packers.  A ton of college sports teams.  Etc.

Miami has terrible ticket sales because you could go sit inside a baseball stadium 81 times a year or you could go to the beach.  For most people the choice is the beach.  It's the same as sports in LA.  There have been some great pro (Rams) and college (UCLA) teams that have terrible attendance relative to the product on the field.

It's not about the winning as much as it is about the city.  What is there to do in St. Louis in August?  Go see the Cardinals or go see a giant piece of medal.  What is there to do in Green Bay on a Sunday in December?  Go watch the Packers or sit on your couch and watch the Packers.

The L.A. Dodgers have long been a popular draw. Big numbers, ever since relocating to Southern California.  They’ve drawn 3 million plus annually 18 out of the past 20 years and have drawn 3 million often since the late 1970’s. The Lakers have had great historical attendance and viewers. The teams are good often among other things.



 

dgies9156

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2019, 03:20:14 PM »
Miami has terrible ticket sales because you could go sit inside a baseball stadium 81 times a year or you could go to the beach.  For most people the choice is the beach.  It's the same as sports in LA.  There have been some great pro (Rams) and college (UCLA) teams that have terrible attendance relative to the product on the field.

Brother Wades, have you ever been to Miami in July? Or August?

It is not an either/or choice. Baseball in South Florida generally is played at night. Around 7:00 p.m., the beach is not a popular recreational choice. The sun is slowly sinking into the Everglades and the humidity is only slightly less than in a highly pressurized sauna. And if you've ever been to South Florida, you'd also know about the "no-seeums."

The baseball stadium is a retractable dome with high-powered air conditioning. It's in the Little Havana neighborhood on the site of the old Orange Bowl.

Build a good team and Marlins Stadium will rock. Build a consistently good team and Miami will be the capital of baseball!

Jockey

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2019, 06:13:46 PM »

Build a good team and Marlins Stadium will rock. Build a consistently good team and Miami will be the capital of baseball!

I don’t think I agree. Every year, their attendance is below league average - even when winning the WS.

Maybe it would change if they put 2 or 3 goods years together, but I think it might take longer to build a tradition in a non-baseball town.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 06:16:26 PM by Jockey »

Cheeks

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2019, 07:22:44 PM »
Angels have drawn 3million per year 16 straight seasons, including last few with losing records (albeit very close to .500).
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2019, 08:30:02 PM »
Brother Wades, have you ever been to Miami in July? Or August?

It is not an either/or choice. Baseball in South Florida generally is played at night. Around 7:00 p.m., the beach is not a popular recreational choice. The sun is slowly sinking into the Everglades and the humidity is only slightly less than in a highly pressurized sauna. And if you've ever been to South Florida, you'd also know about the "no-seeums."

The baseball stadium is a retractable dome with high-powered air conditioning. It's in the Little Havana neighborhood on the site of the old Orange Bowl.

Build a good team and Marlins Stadium will rock. Build a consistently good team and Miami will be the capital of baseball!

I’ll take August in Miami over August in the St Louis.


DegenerateDish

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2019, 09:26:11 PM »
That was a bomb by Harper.

#UnleashSean

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Re: Real MLB Thread
« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2019, 09:41:19 PM »
Uhhhhhh wow

 

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