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Author Topic: Here come the judge...  (Read 35010 times)

MU82

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #100 on: June 17, 2019, 10:39:06 PM »
The ones with fraud reporters and agendas, I don't.  The ones that have written an outcome or purposely leave critical pieces of information out of their "reporting"...I don't.   Fortunately not all journalists are like this.  Unfortunately, too many are.

And you're the judge and jury of this? You, with extreme views and an ax to grind? You, who actually believes the free press is the enemy of the people?

That's rich.

You're just another guy with an opinion, just like anybody else.

Merry Xmas!
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Juan Anderson's Mixtape

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #101 on: June 17, 2019, 10:41:22 PM »
Exceptions to everything, again would you like to go through the list of players...more than happy after meetings are concluded next Tuesday.

We can start with undrafted Seth Curry who went to a small school rarely on TV...how does that sound Lenny?

Duke = small school rarely on TV

forgetful

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #102 on: June 17, 2019, 10:55:49 PM »
This silly argument ignores the fact that athletes in the revenue-producing sports contribute substantially more to their university than any other student. When 18,000 people fill the Fiserv to watch an engineering competition, or 110,000 pack the Big House to see a poetry reading, you might have a point. Until then, it's ludicrous.

Also, I'm saddened to learn that all academic and need-based scholarships, grants, co-op and internship programs, etc., have been eliminated.

Enormously false. Examples:

Grad students at Northwestern contributed to the discovery of Lyrica. It currently brings in around $150-200M in PROFIT each year.

Similar stories at many big Universities. $1.8B in profits from tech per year. That doesn't include the Billions in revenue from research grants, that come from the work of graduates and undergraduates. Some big schools bring in revenue (and spend) in the billions of dollars every year off the backs of student researchers.

Revenue sports athletes are bringing in drops in a bucket compared to these other sources.

And these sources of revenue bring in net profits, that in turn are used to support other university endeavors, even being siphoned off to prop up sports departments that are operating at massive losses.


Pakuni

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #103 on: June 17, 2019, 11:06:42 PM »
Those people are filling Michigan stadium whether the 4th string punter is on the team or not, same for the 3rd string LB that plays on special teams. They are going to cheer on the team with the name on the FRONT of the uniform, not on the back.

Let's try a little mental exercise to see if you really believe this nonsense.
If the Michigan athletic department decided tomorrow to stop giving football scholarships and instead assembled a team of walk ons from the student body, would 110K still show up on Saturdays to see that to lose 90-0 to Ohio State, Wisconsin and Penn Stat ... because of the name on the FRONT of the uniform?
Obviously not.
They show up because they have an expectation of Michigan football, and that expectation is built 100 percent around the idea that Michigan football will field a team of elite athletes which will compete at the highest level. Take away that expectation, and Michigan football = Beloit College football.

By the way, how many fans are buying Michigan jerseys with the 4th string punter's number on them?

Quote
Guess what also contributes....the fact Michigan, Duke, Marquette, etc are on TV gives these guys a grand platform to showcase their wares every time out in exchange for a job, possibly millions in compensation.  If it wasn't for that platform, which the school and conference provide, they wouldn't be in line to make that money. 

Kevin Garnett. Kobe Bryant. LeBron James. Jermaine O'Neal. Tracy McGrady. A'mare Stoudamire. Rashard Lewis. Tyson Chandler. Dwight Howard. Yao Ming. Giannis Antetokounmpo. Nikola Jokic.
These and many, many other players say you're wrong. Because these and many, many other players have landed jobs in the NBA and earned millions in compensation without this grand platform.
The idea that players need the NCAA in order to be seen by NBA scouts is beyond a doubt false.

Seriously, what could you possibly have against players being able to profit off their own likeness? Like, give us one good reason that doesn't involve some bogus slippery slope or chicken little argument.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 11:32:39 PM by Pakuni »

Pakuni

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #104 on: June 17, 2019, 11:20:32 PM »
Enormously false. Examples:

Grad students at Northwestern contributed to the discovery of Lyrica. It currently brings in around $150-200M in PROFIT each year.

Similar stories at many big Universities. $1.8B in profits from tech per year. That doesn't include the Billions in revenue from research grants, that come from the work of graduates and undergraduates. Some big schools bring in revenue (and spend) in the billions of dollars every year off the backs of student researchers.

Revenue sports athletes are bringing in drops in a bucket compared to these other sources.


And these sources of revenue bring in net profits, that in turn are used to support other university endeavors, even being siphoned off to prop up sports departments that are operating at massive losses.

No, this is enormously misleading. Crediting students for these revenues is akin to crediting team managers for NCAA tournament shares and the girl who carries Nick Saban's headset for Alabama's bowl revenue

Lyrica was, in fact, invented by a Northwestern professor with help from a visiting professor from Poland, not grad students. And given that the school sold away its royalty rights years ago, it seems unlikely, they school is netting a $200 million PROFIT each year.
Facts matter.

https://research.northwestern.edu/news/legacy-lyrica
https://dailynorthwestern.com/2016/04/10/in-focus/in-focus-as-lyrica-profits-dry-up-northwestern-seeks-another-blockbuster-drug/

Likewise, research grants aren't earned by students. They're obtained by faculty and staff. At most, students serve as lab assistants, but the important work and discovery is done by the faculty.


« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 11:31:11 PM by Pakuni »

forgetful

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #105 on: June 18, 2019, 12:14:49 AM »
No, this is enormously misleading. Crediting students for these revenues is akin to crediting team managers for NCAA tournament shares and the girl who carries Nick Saban's headset for Alabama's bowl revenue

Lyrica was, in fact, invented by a Northwestern professor with help from a visiting professor from Poland, not grad students. And given that the school sold away its royalty rights years ago, it seems unlikely, they school is netting a $200 million PROFIT each year.
Facts matter.

https://research.northwestern.edu/news/legacy-lyrica
https://dailynorthwestern.com/2016/04/10/in-focus/in-focus-as-lyrica-profits-dry-up-northwestern-seeks-another-blockbuster-drug/

Likewise, research grants aren't earned by students. They're obtained by faculty and staff. At most, students serve as lab assistants, but the important work and discovery is done by the faculty.

You are out of your league here, and misguided.

Research professors and staff are the equivalent of coaching staffs. They recruit, train, guide and direct students in research. The actual research is done by grad students, postdocs, and some undergraduates.

They generate the data, analyze it, come up with new ideas, and are the ones getting discoveries.

Check your inbox for more.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 12:45:16 AM by forgetful »

Mr. Sand-Knit

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #106 on: June 18, 2019, 06:25:38 AM »
Superbar... and boring
Political free board, plz leave your clever quips in your clever mind.

Charlotte Warrior

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #107 on: June 18, 2019, 06:37:02 AM »
Bruh, that thesis hasn't kept you from 5,700+ posts here.
That's funny!!!!

KampusFoods

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #108 on: June 18, 2019, 07:42:01 AM »

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #109 on: June 18, 2019, 08:00:39 AM »
Exceptions to everything, again would you like to go through the list of players...more than happy after meetings are concluded next Tuesday.

We can start with undrafted Seth Curry who went to a small school rarely on TV...how does that sound Lenny?


Seth Curry played his last three years at Duke.  It's kind of a small school but my understanding is that it's on TV quite often.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Lennys Tap

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #110 on: June 18, 2019, 08:15:18 AM »
Exceptions to everything, again would you like to go through the list of players...more than happy after meetings are concluded next Tuesday.

We can start with undrafted Seth Curry who went to a small school rarely on TV...how does that sound Lenny?

Seth Curry went to Liberty for one year then transferred to Duke. All of his games were on TV and he went undrafted. His brother Steph went to Davidson, played on a much smaller stage (rarely on national TV) and was drafted with the #7 pick in the first round.

So, to answer your question, "How does that sound?" as a rebuttal? It sounds dumb, a total refutation of a point you tried to make.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #111 on: June 18, 2019, 08:17:27 AM »
Are you suggesting only the starters get paid?  Lol.  Good luck with that.  Look, this is where this all goes sideways.  In recruiting these kids will be guaranteed $$$ whether they ever play or not, that’s how the scam is going to work. 


How is that a "scam?"  Let's say Nike signs all players who go to Michigan to $2,000 deals.  Eventually they sign the top players for larger deals. 

How is that a scam?  How does it "go sideways?"  I fail to understand how any of this is a problem.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Cheeks

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #112 on: June 18, 2019, 08:33:58 AM »
And you're the judge and jury of this? You, with extreme views and an ax to grind? You, who actually believes the free press is the enemy of the people?

That's rich.

You're just another guy with an opinion, just like anybody else.

Merry Xmas!

Yup, just an opinion shared by nearly 72% of the nation that say the media knowingly publishes false information to push their POV.   They did it to themselves for all to see.  But you are correct, just our opinions.

Merry Christmas to one and all. 
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #113 on: June 18, 2019, 08:34:34 AM »
Duke = small school rarely on TV

Point taken, double for the good sarcasm
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 08:37:02 AM by Cheeks »
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #114 on: June 18, 2019, 08:43:58 AM »

How is that a "scam?"  Let's say Nike signs all players who go to Michigan to $2,000 deals.  Eventually they sign the top players for larger deals. 

How is that a scam?  How does it "go sideways?"  I fail to understand how any of this is a problem.

For a number of reasons.  Pakuni is arguing, it seems, that only the stars will be compensated....I call BS on that which create an enormous recruiting advantage for rich schools during the recruiting process.  The rich will get even richer, schools will drop out because they can no longer compete and throw their hands up....that means less opportunities for kids, mostly minorities by the way.

Through the course of time most ncaa problems with schools has been around money and essentially bribing kids to play there.  I fail to see how you don’t recognize this as a problem.  Now, I know there are people that believe if you just do everything above board it solves the problem....like making drugs legal eliminates drug violence and illegal sales, or prostitution, or fill in the blank.....of course we know in reality that is pure BS, but people believe in unicorns.   Your $2000 example will become $10k under the table because a new market will be set and human beings, who love to cheat and scam the system, will do exactly that.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Uncle Rico

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #115 on: June 18, 2019, 08:46:35 AM »
Set the bagmen free
“This is bar none atrocious.  Mitchell cannot shoot either.  What a pile of dung”

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #116 on: June 18, 2019, 08:52:31 AM »
For a number of reasons.  Pakuni is arguing, it seems, that only the stars will be compensated....I call BS on that which create an enormous recruiting advantage for rich schools during the recruiting process.  The rich will get even richer, schools will drop out because they can no longer compete and throw their hands up....that means less opportunities for kids, mostly minorities by the way.

Of course it's a recruiting advantage.  Schools already have recruiting advantages.  That's life.

And I find your hand-wringing about minorities and scholarship opportunities really convenient since you seem to be aghast at giving students such opportunities when it comes to dropping standardized test requirements.  Not to mention that's a slippery slope argument that doesn't seem to have much basis in reality.  More and more athletic scholarships are available now when compared to a generation ago, yet the "resource gap" between schools has widened considerably.  More forces are at work than you are acknowledging.


Through the course of time most ncaa problems with schools has been around money and essentially bribing kids to play there.  I fail to see how you don’t recognize this as a problem.  Now, I know there are people that believe if you just do everything above board it solves the problem....like making drugs legal eliminates drug violence and illegal sales, or prostitution, or fill in the blank.....of course we know in reality that is pure BS, but people believe in unicorns.   Your $2000 example will become $10k under the table because a new market will be set and human beings, who love to cheat and scam the system, will do exactly that.

You are comparing college age students getting additional income to attend school with drugs and prostitution.  Just let that sink in for a moment.  It doesn't take a genius to realize that drug use and prostitution have other negative benefits on society.  Giving college kids additional money really doesn't.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

StillAWarrior

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #117 on: June 18, 2019, 08:59:17 AM »
Again, I don't think anyone is saying the schools aren't important or that most student-athletes (I would argue 99%) are fairly compensated. But if outside entities want to pay them for their likeness, I still haven't heard an argument against it other than "it will get abused." That's true, but I think the current system and any system will be abused so I don't think it's the strongest argument.

I agree with every word of this.
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Pakuni

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #118 on: June 18, 2019, 09:01:58 AM »
For a number of reasons.  Pakuni is arguing, it seems, that only the stars will be compensated....I call BS on that which create an enormous recruiting advantage for rich schools during the recruiting process.  The rich will get even richer, schools will drop out because they can no longer compete and throw their hands up....that means less opportunities for kids, mostly minorities by the way.
No, I actually never said that.

But don't rich schools already have an enormous recruiting advantage? Do you not believe the recruiting budget at Duke and Kentucky is substantially larger than at UW-Green Bay and Wright State? Do you think North Texas and Troy football programs aren't at a facilities disadvantage to Alabama and Texas A&M?

How does allowing players to profit from their likeness - say, by appearing in an ad for a local car dealership or signing a deal with adidas - force Stetson and High Point to drop their programs? It changes nothing for those programs.

Lastly, aren't there already huge "compensation" gaps? You frequently cite the value of a scholarship, i.e. tuition, access to facilities, coaching, etc. But these things aren't the same at every program.
Isn't the value of, say, a Michigan education greater than Cleveland State? Isn't the coaching at Duke or Kansas better than San Jose State? Aren't the facilities at Marquette or Kentucky better than Chicago State or Prairie View A&M?

Huge inequities exist in the system. Nothing about allowing a kid to profit off his likeness changes or exacerbates that.


Cheeks

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #119 on: June 18, 2019, 09:02:04 AM »
Seth bad example, and I deserve the pummeling. 

Will give better effort.  Bruce Bowen.  Ben Wallace.  Avery Johnson.  Raja Bell.  JJ Barea.  Jeremy Lin.  Dellevedova.  Tim Legler.  Connie Hawkins.  Michael James.  Troy Hudson.  Etc etc
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #120 on: June 18, 2019, 09:02:14 AM »
I agree with every word of this.

Yes. Anytime you create situations where outside entities put a ceiling on income, "the market" will work to find ways to subvert that ceiling.  It's simple economics.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Cheeks

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #121 on: June 18, 2019, 09:10:03 AM »
Yes. Anytime you create situations where outside entities put a ceiling on income, "the market" will work to find ways to subvert that ceiling.  It's simple economics.

American taxation system where ceilings or tiers = penalties.  Fortunately that system is a model of stability and honesty........
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #122 on: June 18, 2019, 09:11:38 AM »
Again, I don't think anyone is saying the schools aren't important or that most student-athletes (I would argue 99%) are fairly compensated. But if outside entities want to pay them for their likeness, I still haven't heard an argument against it other than "it will get abused." That's true, but I think the current system and any system will be abused so I don't think it's the strongest argument.

So other than it will lead to more cheating and more corruption, it is ok and not a good argument.  Uhm, ok.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #123 on: June 18, 2019, 09:16:30 AM »
American taxation system where ceilings or tiers = penalties.  Fortunately that system is a model of stability and honesty........

Right. Thanks for proving my point.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Here come the judge...
« Reply #124 on: June 18, 2019, 09:16:59 AM »
So other than it will lead to more cheating and more corruption, it is ok and not a good argument.  Uhm, ok.


How will it lead to more cheating and more corruption?
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

 

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