MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: silverback on June 13, 2019, 02:39:18 PM

Title: Here come the judge...
Post by: silverback on June 13, 2019, 02:39:18 PM
So, six schools about to fall...

I write about sports from time to time, but I don't cover college sports specifically. So, I reached out to my friends who do focus on hoops out there. After talking it over with those insiders, they're predicting USC, Arizona, Auburn, Kansas, OK St, Louisville.

With Creighton, NC St., Oregon and LSU not far behind...

Still, that's just the NCAA self-policing. There are still federal beefs inbound. I've talked to a couple federal prosecutors about another unrelated story, and this case came up along the way. I can tell you this...

1) The feds have no respect or concern for the NCAA. They didn't tell the NCAA they were investigating because they believed the NCAA would tip off the schools to save face.

2) The feds are not done with college sports because it's rife with bribery, racketeering and extortion (all federal crimes). These crimes also occured across state lines, adding complete jurisdiction. So, any local police in, say, Lawrence KS, won't be consulted or be able to protect the Jayhawks, etc.

3) The Feds take their time and don't move until they've got you absolutely dead to rights. My buddy is a federal prosecutor and hasn't set foot in a courtroom for seven years because every suspect pleaded or rolled. He guarantees the first round of indicted coaches rolled on others. Now, the gears will grind slowly.

4) When the feds proceed, they'll have no regard for anything the NCAA already self-imposed. NCAA regs are not federal laws...

5) Whatever schools are next on the fed's list...They will never see it coming.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 13, 2019, 03:36:26 PM
I will believe it when I see it with both the NCAA and the feds.

The feds seem real intent on prosecuting assistant coaches while leaving the real money and power brokers (head coaches) untouched.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: GooooMarquette on June 13, 2019, 04:06:58 PM

The feds seem real intent on prosecuting assistant coaches while leaving the real money and power brokers (head coaches) untouched.


They are limited by the facts. Therefore, if they prosecute assistants but don’t touch head coaches, it would be because the documents point to the assistants but not the head coaches.

IMHO, many top people (head coaches, CEOs, etc) who are involved with wrongdoing give general directions (“get this done”), and the underlings do the deed. That way, if prosecutors ever ask if the top guy was involved, they have plausible deniability. “I didn’t tell our CFO to falsify the tax filings, I just said he had to figure out a way to show a profit that quarter.” That might not get him off the hook, but it makes him a tougher target than the guy who signed the returns.

Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: brewcity77 on June 13, 2019, 04:07:08 PM
I will believe it when I see it with both the NCAA and the feds.

The feds seem real intent on prosecuting assistant coaches while leaving the real money and power brokers (head coaches) untouched.

This has surprised me. Why does SDNY care if people like Sean Miller or Bill Self go down?
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: jesmu84 on June 13, 2019, 04:18:27 PM
If a bunch of assistants are getting nailed by the feds, couldn't the NCAA regulate the head coaches with institutional control penalties?
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: 79Warrior on June 13, 2019, 06:46:52 PM
This has surprised me. Why does SDNY care if people like Sean Miller or Bill Self go down?

The evidence directly links the assistants. If the Feds had the evidence to prosecute Miller or Self  they would.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: rocket surgeon on June 13, 2019, 07:44:49 PM
the feds have over a 90% conviction rate.  that can be good and bad.  once they set their sights on something, right or wrong, lives are ruined.  it's the "wrong" part that scares me.  to me, ya can lose for winning
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 13, 2019, 07:53:33 PM
At the NACDA convention today the NCAA spokesman for enforcement said schools will receive consequences. 

We shall see
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 13, 2019, 08:00:39 PM
At the NACDA convention today the NCAA spokesman for enforcement said schools will receive consequences. 

We shall see

I’m sure they will receive a stern talk and maybe even a finger wag.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: dgies9156 on June 13, 2019, 08:09:45 PM
At the NACDA convention today the NCAA spokesman for enforcement said schools will receive consequences. 

We shall see

Oh, that means when Arizona is formerly acknowledged as cheating, Prescott Community College will get the death penalty.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Chili on June 13, 2019, 08:15:43 PM
Oh, that means when Arizona is formerly acknowledged as cheating, Prescott Community College will get the death penalty.

I think you mean Pima County -- but point is spot on
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: bilsu on June 13, 2019, 08:47:01 PM
All that is going to happen is that schools will have to vacate wins, because of using ineligible players. In some cases a loss of scholarships. Nothing big is going to come out of this.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: MU82 on June 13, 2019, 11:50:22 PM
If a bunch of assistants are getting nailed by the feds, couldn't the NCAA regulate the head coaches with institutional control penalties?

You'd think.

But when the NCAA let Roy Williams off with "Gee willakers gosh darn, I didn't even know those young men were takin' pretend classes, by golly" I don't trust the NCAA being able to recognize/enforce what seems like obvious lack of institutional control here.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on June 14, 2019, 12:12:44 AM
So if MU gets the Creighton loss back, can we raise the Big East banner?
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Hards Alumni on June 14, 2019, 04:59:08 AM
This has surprised me. Why does SDNY care if people like Sean Miller or Bill Self go down?

Simple.  Because of the message it would send.

Incapacitation.
Deterrence.
Retribution.
Rehabilitation.
Restoration.

Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: muguru on June 14, 2019, 07:16:48 AM
The evidence directly links the assistants. If the Feds had the evidence to prosecute Miller or Self  they would.

They would have had it for Miller, if the judge wouldn't have ruled that he didn't need to testify.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: muguru on June 14, 2019, 07:18:00 AM
All that is going to happen is that schools will have to vacate wins, because of using ineligible players. In some cases a loss of scholarships. Nothing big is going to come out of this.

Unfortunately, I think you're right..post season bans are the ONLY thing that will really hurt and send a message. Let's see if the NCAA gets tough after this whole thing.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 14, 2019, 08:10:03 AM
You'd think.

But when the NCAA let Roy Williams off with "Gee willakers gosh darn, I didn't even know those young men were takin' pretend classes, by golly" I don't trust the NCAA being able to recognize/enforce what seems like obvious lack of institutional control here.

Ncaa had no jurisdiction in the North Carolina situation, thus they didn’t let Williams off because they couldn’t.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 14, 2019, 08:14:58 AM
Unfortunately, I think you're right..post season bans are the ONLY thing that will really hurt and send a message. Let's see if the NCAA gets tough after this whole thing.

Scholarship reductions and show causes for the head coach also would work.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: brewcity77 on June 14, 2019, 08:46:12 AM
Simple.  Because of the message it would send.

Incapacitation.
Deterrence.
Retribution.
Rehabilitation.
Restoration.

Letting the biggest offenders and beneficiaries get away with it does the opposite of that. If their cheating continues to be rewarded, then it would encourage rather than deter such behavior.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Lens on June 14, 2019, 08:46:58 AM
Meh.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on June 14, 2019, 08:57:17 AM
Ncaa had no jurisdiction in the North Carolina situation, thus they didn’t let Williams off because they couldn’t.

So, Jae Crowder getting admitted to MU and passing the NCAA Clearinghouse with no chance of graduating in four years because of bad JUCO credits is squirmy, but UNC putting athletes in film flam courses can’t be touched because of no jurisdiction? This reminds me how the NCAA effed up the Miami investigation. At some point the governing body is complicit in this racketeering operation.

If sleaze-balls like Self, Pearl, Miller and Wade are still coaching, the NCAA is dead in the public for the sham and scam that they are, and there is enough groundswell for abiding members this time I get the feeling that they will be blown apart if they are two faced this time around. This is a tipping point for this organization.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 14, 2019, 09:03:00 AM
So, Jae Crowder getting admitted to MU and passing the NCAA Clearinghouse with no chance of graduating in four years because of bad JUCO credits is squirmy, but UNC putting athletes in film flam courses can’t be touched because of no jurisdiction? This reminds me how the NCAA effed up the Miami investigation. At some point the governing body is complicit in this racketeering operation.


Sigh

Try again
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: MU82 on June 14, 2019, 09:09:17 AM
Ncaa had no jurisdiction in the North Carolina situation, thus they didn’t let Williams off because they couldn’t.

In past years (fairly distant past by now, unfortunately), the NCAA has widely used the "lack of institutional control" umbrella to penalize institutions.

IMHO, the kind of cheating that took place at UNC -- broad, borderline boastful, academic fraud -- is far worse than money getting spread around. Money goes against amateurism, which basically doesn't exist any more in big-time college athletics; academic fraud attacks the very heart of every university's mission.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on June 14, 2019, 09:15:42 AM
Sigh

Try again

Other shoe to drop?  Sounds like you support and do business with a shim sham organization? 
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Boozemon Barro on June 14, 2019, 09:17:26 AM
It's far past time for players in revenue sports to be paid and non revenue sports to be transitioned into club sports. Some basic free market principles would eliminate most of these issues.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: muguru on June 14, 2019, 10:09:39 AM
Scholarship reductions and show causes for the head coach also would work.

Not really...I mean say the reduce scholarships by 1 or two a year for 5 years. Who really needs a 12th and 13th scholarship anyway?? Post season bans are what teams really don't want...especially the UL's, KU's and Zona's of the world, and their fans. Hit them where it's going to hurt most.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 14, 2019, 10:16:40 AM
Not really...I mean say the reduce scholarships by 1 or two a year for 5 years. Who really needs a 12th and 13th scholarship anyway?? Post season bans are what teams really don't want...especially the UL's, KU's and Zona's of the world, and their fans. Hit them where it's going to hurt most.


Teams have banned themselves from the post-season.  Unless you make it really lengthy, it's not going to change behavior.

Giving someone like Sean Miller a ten year show-cause penalty will get the message out that they aren't messing around.  It will show coaches that they are responsible for all aspects of their program.

Or do both.  Look what they did to Baylor after the Bliss scandal.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Loose Cannon on June 14, 2019, 10:43:30 AM
Ncaa had no jurisdiction in the North Carolina situation, thus they didn’t let Williams off because they couldn’t.

Have I got this right?  Because the NCAA had no Jurisdiction in this case, therefore the NCAA can not prohibit others schools from duplicating what North Caroline did.  Or has that situation been closed down? If so by who?

I'm implying you have the answers, but I'm trying to understand the current status of what can be done.  Thanks
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Equalizer on June 14, 2019, 11:34:39 AM
So if MU gets the Creighton loss back, can we raise the Big East banner?

No, because when a team vacates a win it doesn't change the result for the other team.

Creighton vacates the win, but we will still have the game as a loss.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 14, 2019, 12:46:26 PM
It's far past time for players in revenue sports to be paid and non revenue sports to be transitioned into club sports. Some basic free market principles would eliminate most of these issues.

Good luck with Title IX on this.  Massive removal of opportunities for minorities and women in particular.  The total number of “revenue” sports....do you mean revenue, or do you mean profitable because many men’s basketball lower D1 programs are revenue generating but lose money.  Same for football.

Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 14, 2019, 12:51:19 PM
Have I got this right?  Because the NCAA had no Jurisdiction in this case, therefore the NCAA can not prohibit others schools from duplicating what North Caroline did.  Or has that situation been closed down? If so by who?

I'm implying you have the answers, but I'm trying to understand the current status of what can be done.  Thanks

That is correct.  The NCAA is not an academic entity, it is a membership association for athletics.  The NCAA doesn’t get to dictate what courses schools offer in their curriculum, etc....and a reminder that the UNC courses were open to all students, not just athletes.  They have no jurisdiction in this.

MU has basketball physics we would call it.  Many players were in Comm school.  Other schools have players in Phys Ed.  Etc etc.

The NCAA cannot make that call and the members do not want their own governing body to make that call.  If the courses were open to only student athletes, I think more of an argument for NCAA involvement, but not a general course for all.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: connie on June 14, 2019, 01:45:31 PM
Have I got this right?  Because the NCAA had no Jurisdiction in this case, therefore the NCAA can not prohibit others schools from duplicating what North Caroline did.  Or has that situation been closed down? If so by who?

I'm implying you have the answers, but I'm trying to understand the current status of what can be done.  Thanks
What the NCAA essentially found was that North Carolina's cheating was so widespread that it extended to the entire student population.  Since every student was allowed to take non-existent classes to improve their gpa's, the scam was not set up for the benefit of college athletes, and thus outside the scope of the ncaa's enforcement power. I have to tip my hat to NC's lawyers---sacrificing the academic reputation of the entire university to avoid penalties was truly inspired, and it hasn't seemed to hurt them a bit.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 14, 2019, 02:22:56 PM
In past years (fairly distant past by now, unfortunately), the NCAA has widely used the "lack of institutional control" umbrella to penalize institutions.

IMHO, the kind of cheating that took place at UNC -- broad, borderline boastful, academic fraud -- is far worse than money getting spread around. Money goes against amateurism, which basically doesn't exist any more in big-time college athletics; academic fraud attacks the very heart of every university's mission.

That may be the case, but ultimately still comes down to what we want done and what can be done....two different things.

I could easily argue any school that offers courses on Disneyland, bowling, Skeet Shooting, etc, are also doing a disservice to their academic institution...but those courses exist at major universities.  As long as they are open to everyone and everyone is graded in the same fashion, there is nothing the NCAA can do.  As much as all of us wish we could.

As I said in another thread, this is human nature....give an inch take a mile.  This happens everywhere to varying degrees in business, govt, education, athletics, society at large.  Find the loophole and drive a truck through it.

If you want to ban the “sham” classes that is fine, but who decides?  Some of those sham classes at UNC were African American studies....cannot wait to see the huge can of worms that opens up if those classes are banned.  What is the criteria to determine what is a sham class and what isn’t?  And what resources will be dedicated to monitoring 1000’s of schools in the NCAA divisions?  At some point we have to hope schools are being honest, and the people involved with them.....but alas that isn’t always to be the case.  I just don’t understand the blame of the NCAA here...they have plenty of warts already, but this one isn’t on them.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on June 14, 2019, 02:27:00 PM
I think whether or not the NCAA had jurisdiction isn't relevant to the question of whether or not what UNC did was squirmy
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Boozemon Barro on June 14, 2019, 02:54:44 PM
Good luck with Title IX on this.  Massive removal of opportunities for minorities and women in particular.  The total number of “revenue” sports....do you mean revenue, or do you mean profitable because many men’s basketball lower D1 programs are revenue generating but lose money.  Same for football.

Profitable sports are commonly called revenue sports in this discussion. Title IX is obsolete as women attend college at a greater rate than men (Currently 56% women to 44% men enrolled). Women are more likely to graduate as well. Handing out scholarships to sports programs that lose money is no longer needed to break down a gender education gap. If the individual universities want to provide these scholarships they should be able to, but being required to do so in order to receive federal funding is silly in my opinion.

 The majority of scholarship men's basketball and football players at P6 universities are black. They are currently experiencing a massive removal of opportunity by having their value artificially capped by the NCAA. Even the intersectional woke scolds should be able to support these players being able to fully capitalize on their value.

I'm not in favor of forcing schools to pay players. I want the regulations against paying players removed. Market forces will take care of the rest.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on June 14, 2019, 02:58:54 PM
Profitable sports are commonly called revenue sports in this discussion. Title IX is obsolete as women attend college at a greater rate than men (Currently 56% women to 44% men enrolled). Women are more likely to graduate as well. Handing out scholarships to sports programs that lose money is no longer needed to break down a gender education gap. If the individual universities want to provide these scholarships they should be able to, but being required to do so in order to receive federal funding is silly in my opinion.

Your opinion is silly in my opinion. Market forces as you put it would destroy all trace of women's sports at the university level.

The majority of scholarship men's basketball and football players at P6 universities are black. They are currently experiencing a massive removal of opportunity by having their value artificially capped by the NCAA. Even the intersectional woke scolds should be able to support these players being able to fully capitalize on their value.

I'm not in favor of forcing schools to pay players. I want the regulations against paying players removed. Market forces will take care of the rest.

I do agree with this to a point. Allow players to profit off their likeness and I think that addresses these concerns without destroying women's sports.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Boozemon Barro on June 14, 2019, 03:21:11 PM
Your opinion is silly in my opinion. Market forces as you put it would destroy all trace of women's sports at the university level.

I do agree with this to a point. Allow players to profit off their likeness and I think that addresses these concerns without destroying women's sports.

Women's sports wouldn't be destroyed, they'd become club sports.

Likeness rights should be obvious, but the real value of a player is when they're being heavily recruited by sports programs that make millions of dollars. These programs aggressively compete for these recruits by building multi-million dollar facilities and paying huge salaries for the best coaches they can get. Only restricting them from competing in player compensation is especially punitive to the players.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 14, 2019, 04:18:17 PM
I think whether or not the NCAA had jurisdiction isn't relevant to the question of whether or not what UNC did was squirmy

Of course what they did was, the author of that statement knew that going in.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 14, 2019, 04:21:31 PM
Your opinion is silly in my opinion. Market forces as you put it would destroy all trace of women's sports at the university level.

I do agree with this to a point. Allow players to profit off their likeness and I think that addresses these concerns without destroying women's sports.

Except as noted earlier the schools and Alumni will drive a truck through that and make matters even worse.  Profit off their likeness?  If I put Zion in a Centenary uniform is he worth more or less than a Duke uniform?  So exactly who is driving the profitability?  The player to some degree, but the platform has an enormous amount to do with it.  I love how so many think it is just the athlete...it simply isn’t the case (not suggesting you are saying this).

Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 14, 2019, 04:26:48 PM
Profitable sports are commonly called revenue sports in this discussion. Title IX is obsolete as women attend college at a greater rate than men (Currently 56% women to 44% men enrolled). Women are more likely to graduate as well. Handing out scholarships to sports programs that lose money is no longer needed to break down a gender education gap. If the individual universities want to provide these scholarships they should be able to, but being required to do so in order to receive federal funding is silly in my opinion.

 The majority of scholarship men's basketball and football players at P6 universities are black. They are currently experiencing a massive removal of opportunity by having their value artificially capped by the NCAA. Even the intersectional woke scolds should be able to support these players being able to fully capitalize on their value.

I'm not in favor of forcing schools to pay players. I want the regulations against paying players removed. Market forces will take care of the rest.

You are in favor of destroying Marquette basketball, the idea of any Cinderella story ever again, as well as the NCAA tournament along with essentially saying these guys are pros and there for one reason.  That may be what you believe, but doesn’t make it reality.  Of course there are some kids there to do one thing and one thing only....play ball.  And many that are looking for balance of athletics and college experience.  That would be the result of your “market forces”.  You would also completely destroy women’s sports.  Completely.

People always want to throw money at the problem as if that cures it and the only solution.  Instead, this will have massive destructive results.     
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Boozemon Barro on June 14, 2019, 05:24:33 PM
You are in favor of destroying Marquette basketball, the idea of any Cinderella story ever again, as well as the NCAA tournament along with essentially saying these guys are pros and there for one reason.  That may be what you believe, but doesn’t make it reality.  Of course there are some kids there to do one thing and one thing only....play ball.  And many that are looking for balance of athletics and college experience.  That would be the result of your “market forces”.  You would also completely destroy women’s sports.  Completely.

People always want to throw money at the problem as if that cures it and the only solution.  Instead, this will have massive destructive results.   

How do you figure? Loyola Chicago made a Final Four run with players that had zero interest from P6 schools. Actually every Cinderalla story is teams without high major talent making a magical run. The distribution of talent would remain largely the same. I think a school like Marquette could actually benefit since all our resources go to basketball. Almost all of the football schools would prioritize their football player budget over basketball. Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, etc. would still get all the elite basketball players, but maybe the price of the elite talent would get so high that a school like Marquette could compete financially for that next tier of player. Talent isn't the only factor for team success.

Women's sports, actually all sports outside of men's basketball and football, would go from scholarship sports that barely anyone watches or supports to club sports that barely anyone watches or supports. I don't believe these athletes deserve scholarships over regular students for playing a sport that loses their university money. There are thousands of college students paying their own way and playing club sports currently.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Loose Cannon on June 14, 2019, 05:51:27 PM
That is correct.  The NCAA is not an academic entity, it is a membership association for athletics.  The NCAA doesn’t get to dictate what courses schools offer in their curriculum, etc....and a reminder that the UNC courses were open to all students, not just athletes.  They have no jurisdiction in this.

MU has basketball physics we would call it.  Many players were in Comm school.  Other schools have players in Phys Ed.  Etc etc.

The NCAA cannot make that call and the members do not want their own governing body to make that call.  If the courses were open to only student athletes, I think more of an argument for NCAA involvement, but not a general course for all.

Thanks for your reply.  But I'm a little confused.  NC established the classes and I think the classes are currently closed, so NC started them and then close them down, but somewhere  in the middle they had no Jurisdiction of the classes.

I think there are six College accreditation agencies for the US and I don't think Colleges have to get prior approval before starting new classes.  What am I missing.  Is it then the Accreditation agency responsibility to monitor the class.
Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 14, 2019, 06:04:25 PM
Women's sports wouldn't be destroyed, they'd become club sports.

Likeness rights should be obvious, but the real value of a player is when they're being heavily recruited by sports programs that make millions of dollars. These programs aggressively compete for these recruits by building multi-million dollar facilities and paying huge salaries for the best coaches they can get. Only restricting them from competing in player compensation is especially punitive to the players.

By becoming club sports you have decimated them.  No scholarships and welcome to Title IX.   This is fantasy at this point.

Those multi million dollar facilities are built for teams that suck, too....that lose way more than they win...that lose money...so how does that equate to your story?   Yes, even the 300th ranked team in D1 plays in a multi million facility, but loses their ass in $$$$.

Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: MUDPT on June 14, 2019, 06:11:58 PM
So if MU gets the Creighton loss back, can we raise the Big East banner?

Need to raise 2012 from Syracuse vacating.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 14, 2019, 06:16:42 PM
Thanks for your reply.  But I'm a little confused.  NC established the classes and I think the classes are currently closed, so NC started them and then close them down, but somewhere  in the middle they had no Jurisdiction of the classes.

I think there are six College accreditation agencies for the US and I don't think Colleges have to get prior approval before starting new classes.  What am I missing.  Is it then the Accreditation agency responsibility to monitor the class.
Thanks for your help.

It definitely isn’t the NCAA’s jurisdiction, this is an academic issue not an athletic issue. 

The Southern Association of Schools and Colleges gave full accreditation in Dec 2017, 2 years after they were put on probation as a result of the various issues that were going on.  The accreditation lasts 10 years. 

The agency said some members wanted to drop their accreditation of the university. Probation was the harshest penalty that agency had given in 40 years.

Further complicating things, the NCAA membership (the universities) passed a rule that only a school can determine what is academic fraud, not the NCAA itself.  The foxes run the henhouse as it were, but the actual body of the ncaa in Indianapolis can only follow the rules and regs of their body membership.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 14, 2019, 06:24:10 PM
How do you figure? Loyola Chicago made a Final Four run with players that had zero interest from P6 schools. Actually every Cinderalla story is teams without high major talent making a magical run. The distribution of talent would remain largely the same. I think a school like Marquette could actually benefit since all our resources go to basketball. Almost all of the football schools would prioritize their football player budget over basketball. Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, etc. would still get all the elite basketball players, but maybe the price of the elite talent would get so high that a school like Marquette could compete financially for that next tier of player. Talent isn't the only factor for team success.

Women's sports, actually all sports outside of men's basketball and football, would go from scholarship sports that barely anyone watches or supports to club sports that barely anyone watches or supports. I don't believe these athletes deserve scholarships over regular students for playing a sport that loses their university money. There are thousands of college students paying their own way and playing club sports currently.

Distribution of talent would likely be even more disparate.  Today, Loyola can compete to a degree with other schools.  You add another weapon into the arsenal regarding payment and the haves will do better than the have nots. 

I’m well aware of club sports.  My son wears the Marquette jersey proudly the last two years and travels to Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Illinois, Indiana, etc on a nationally top 10 ranked MU club team.  And yes, we pay a lot of money to MU for tuition, room and board.  Those kids work hard, travel a bunch, no scholarships, all for pride of school and comraderie amongst the teammates.

That is far different than taking existing varsity D1 programs with scholarships and now they become non scholarship.  It will destroy those programs. You may not believe the woman’s tennis or lacrosse team players deserve scholarships, but they are representing the school and busting their ass.  This is a non starter politically, legally, and ethically.  Yes, it is socialism....but you aren’t going to be able to unwind this one.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Hards Alumni on June 14, 2019, 11:08:46 PM
Letting the biggest offenders and beneficiaries get away with it does the opposite of that. If their cheating continues to be rewarded, then it would encourage rather than deter such behavior.

You're changing the debate here.  You asked why SDNY would want to see Miller etc go down.  I wasn't responding as to if it would be effective.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Uncle Rico on June 14, 2019, 11:16:07 PM
Free The Bagmen
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 14, 2019, 11:24:29 PM


That is far different than taking existing varsity D1 programs with scholarships and now they become non scholarship.  It will destroy those programs. You may not believe the woman’s tennis or lacrosse team players deserve scholarships, but they are representing the school and busting their ass.  This is a non starter politically, legally, and ethically.  Yes, it is socialism....but you aren’t going to be able to unwind this one.

I'm with Boozeman. I don't think the men's OR women's tennis, lacrosse, golf (and other non revenue sports) "deserve" scholarships just because they represent the school and "bust their ass". Title IX may make it difficult (impossible?) to politically or legally "unwind this one", but why is this a non starter ethically? Not IMHO.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: muguru on June 14, 2019, 11:40:04 PM
I'm with Boozeman. I don't think the men's OR women's tennis, lacrosse, golf (and other non revenue sports) "deserve" scholarships just because they represent the school and "bust their ass". Title IX may make it difficult (impossible?) to politically or legally "unwind this one", but why is this a non starter ethically? Not IMHO.

I mean...why do things have to be "equal" to begin with anyway??
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on June 14, 2019, 11:59:43 PM
Women's sports wouldn't be destroyed, they'd become club sports.

That's what I said, they would be destroyed.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on June 15, 2019, 12:02:52 AM
Except as noted earlier the schools and Alumni will drive a truck through that and make matters even worse.  Profit off their likeness?  If I put Zion in a Centenary uniform is he worth more or less than a Duke uniform?  So exactly who is driving the profitability?  The player to some degree, but the platform has an enormous amount to do with it.  I love how so many think it is just the athlete...it simply isn’t the case (not suggesting you are saying this).

I get the "drive a truck through it" concern, I just don't give a sh*t about it.

But I'm not sure what the rest of your post has to do with the idea of athletes profiting off their likeness. Are you concerned the university won't get their cut? I'm pretty sure that can be worked out.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: brewcity77 on June 15, 2019, 12:34:59 AM
I mean...why do things have to be "equal" to begin with anyway??

Let's just do away with that pesky Constitution.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Newsdreams on June 15, 2019, 09:58:01 AM
Let's just do away with that pesky Constitution.
The Constitution applies??? :P
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 15, 2019, 10:30:56 AM
Just let them take outside income. Sign endorsement deals. Keeps everything above board and doesn’t cost the schools anything extra.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: forgetful on June 15, 2019, 10:40:36 AM
Except as noted earlier the schools and Alumni will drive a truck through that and make matters even worse.  Profit off their likeness?  If I put Zion in a Centenary uniform is he worth more or less than a Duke uniform?  So exactly who is driving the profitability?  The player to some degree, but the platform has an enormous amount to do with it.  I love how so many think it is just the athlete...it simply isn’t the case (not suggesting you are saying this).

Charles Bassey.

Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 15, 2019, 10:51:03 AM
Except as noted earlier the schools and Alumni will drive a truck through that and make matters even worse.  Profit off their likeness?  If I put Zion in a Centenary uniform is he worth more or less than a Duke uniform?  So exactly who is driving the profitability?  The player to some degree, but the platform has an enormous amount to do with it.  I love how so many think it is just the athlete...it simply isn’t the case (not suggesting you are saying this).



So just like professional sports then.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: forgetful on June 15, 2019, 11:09:36 AM
So just like professional sports then.

No, the difference in exposure, value, and relevance from the most valuable sports franchise to the lowest, is minimal compared to that between a Duke and a Centenary.

It's just dumb to even think that.

There is a reason why G-league players, although more talented than college players, are not making big bucks. There is a reason why no successful league has been created to challenge the NCAA.

The NCAA has a built in audience of alumni, and "State-pride", viewers that tune in for the team, not the players on the roster.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 15, 2019, 11:16:16 AM
No, the difference in exposure, value, and relevance from the most valuable sports franchise to the lowest, is minimal compared to that between a Duke and a Centenary.

It's just dumb to even think that.

There is a reason why G-league players, although more talented than college players, are not making big bucks. There is a reason why no successful league has been created to challenge the NCAA.

The NCAA has a built in audience of alumni, and "State-pride", viewers that tune in for the team, not the players on the roster.

Right. Just like the professional leagues in many respects. Packer fans watch the Packers. The players benefit from that.

Some companies sponsor the team and derive benefit from that. Some the players because they feel that’s more of a benefit. Why can’t those same scenarios exist at the collegiate level? 

Sorry but I think you’re the “dumb” one who doesn’t understand the similarities.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: MU82 on June 15, 2019, 11:58:40 AM
That may be the case, but ultimately still comes down to what we want done and what can be done....two different things.

I could easily argue any school that offers courses on Disneyland, bowling, Skeet Shooting, etc, are also doing a disservice to their academic institution...but those courses exist at major universities.  As long as they are open to everyone and everyone is graded in the same fashion, there is nothing the NCAA can do.  As much as all of us wish we could.

As I said in another thread, this is human nature....give an inch take a mile.  This happens everywhere to varying degrees in business, govt, education, athletics, society at large.  Find the loophole and drive a truck through it.

If you want to ban the “sham” classes that is fine, but who decides?  Some of those sham classes at UNC were African American studies....cannot wait to see the huge can of worms that opens up if those classes are banned.  What is the criteria to determine what is a sham class and what isn’t?  And what resources will be dedicated to monitoring 1000’s of schools in the NCAA divisions?  At some point we have to hope schools are being honest, and the people involved with them.....but alas that isn’t always to be the case.  I just don’t understand the blame of the NCAA here...they have plenty of warts already, but this one isn’t on them.

These classes didn't exist. Athletes didn't have to attend at all. They just were given grades. The coaches not only condoned it, they encouraged it ... as represtatives of the university. Should have had the book thrown at them . And Roy shoulda been fired.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: WellsstreetWanderer on June 15, 2019, 12:42:41 PM
I can honestly say that a course that involves no lectures and is graded by the department secretary is a "sham " 
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Dawson Rental on June 15, 2019, 12:58:57 PM
Good luck with Title IX on this.  Massive removal of opportunities for minorities and women in particular.  The total number of “revenue” sports....do you mean revenue, or do you mean profitable because many men’s basketball lower D1 programs are revenue generating but lose money.  Same for football.

Hey, with DeVoss it could be possible.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 15, 2019, 04:27:18 PM
I get the "drive a truck through it" concern, I just don't give a sh*t about it.

But I'm not sure what the rest of your post has to do with the idea of athletes profiting off their likeness. Are you concerned the university won't get their cut? I'm pretty sure that can be worked out.

Many of us do, more importantly many of the deciders do also.  I can tell you many of the schools like MU are terrified of it.

Not worried at all about the “cut”, I’m worried that human nature will be what human nature is and 5he explosion of cheating in this area will be ridiculous and further cause inequities.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 15, 2019, 04:27:57 PM
Just let them take outside income. Sign endorsement deals. Keeps everything above board and doesn’t cost the schools anything extra.

Lol.  No it doesn’t.  Does the opposite.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 15, 2019, 04:28:34 PM
So just like professional sports then.

Did teal button break for you?
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 15, 2019, 04:29:58 PM
I can honestly say that a course that involves no lectures and is graded by the department secretary is a "sham "

Yup.  And offered to any student at the school, thus the NCAA had no jurisdiction. 
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 15, 2019, 04:32:50 PM
These classes didn't exist. Athletes didn't have to attend at all. They just were given grades. The coaches not only condoned it, they encouraged it ... as represtatives of the university. Should have had the book thrown at them . And Roy shoulda been fired.

What are you talking about.  The classes existed, they were shams, but they did exist.  Cataloged with the university, official classes that any student could take.  No one is arguing they weren’t a joke, that attendance was not monitored, grades were a joke, a professor didn’t teach it....100% agree.  The NCAA also agrees, but it doesn’t matter....any student could take them.  UNC decided that this is how they were going to run their university.  They were put on probation for a few years by the accrediting agency, made many changes to alleviate the sham classes, but nothing the NCAA can do about it.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 15, 2019, 04:35:12 PM
Lol.  No it doesn’t.  Does the opposite.

Right. Because legit contracts are worse than a bag man. Look if a kids knows they are getting $5,000 from Nike for going to Duke, good for them! They should be in the market for the best deal possible.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 15, 2019, 04:59:49 PM
Right. Because legit contracts are worse than a bag man. Look if a kids knows they are getting $5,000 from Nike for going to Duke, good for them! They should be in the market for the best deal possible.

Except they won't be "legit", that's the point.  Same as the jobs student athletes used to do were called into question because the athlete would show up (maybe), a card punched, and paid $15 an hour to do absolutely nothing.  The same will happen for the endorsements.  And exactly how is this going to work...is Joe Blow at Duke going to be pitching the local car dealership?   Yeah, what could possibly go wrong with schools with 40,000 students, alumni 10X other schools, and every kid on the team getting "deals" that are alledgedly above board (LOL).

Reap what you sow I guess.   Release that genie and it is all over.  These kids are already taken care of, 99% of them will never play a hot second in the NBA, they are receiving a great value but the "SOLVE" is to make sure they are paid for the likeness when most teams in this nation people couldn't name 3 guys on a team.....poor guys aren't getting the attention or $$$ they deserve.  Give me a break.

They get paid, then they should get zero scholarship and can pay for school.  I keep hearing this bullshyte argument that other students can endorse things....sure...and other students are paying tuition, and don't get free tutors, and free room and board, and a chance to audition several times a week to a future employer.  So if they want to do what other students do, start paying for school, going to class and then we can talk.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 15, 2019, 05:22:51 PM
Except they won't be "legit", that's the point.  Same as the jobs student athletes used to do were called into question because the athlete would show up (maybe), a card punched, and paid $15 an hour to do absolutely nothing.  The same will happen for the endorsements.  And exactly how is this going to work...is Joe Blow at Duke going to be pitching the local car dealership?   Yeah, what could possibly go wrong with schools with 40,000 students, alumni 10X other schools, and every kid on the team getting "deals" that are alledgedly above board (LOL).

How aren’t they above board?
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Loose Cannon on June 15, 2019, 11:11:27 PM
It definitely isn’t the NCAA’s jurisdiction, this is an academic issue not an athletic issue. 

The Southern Association of Schools and Colleges gave full accreditation in Dec 2017, 2 years after they were put on probation as a result of the various issues that were going on.  The accreditation lasts 10 years. 

The agency said some members wanted to drop their accreditation of the university. Probation was the harshest penalty that agency had given in 40 years.

Further complicating things, the NCAA membership (the universities) passed a rule that only a school can determine what is academic fraud, not the NCAA itself.  The foxes run the henhouse as it were, but the actual body of the ncaa in Indianapolis can only follow the rules and regs of their body membership.

Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: muguru on June 16, 2019, 08:30:49 AM
What are you talking about.  The classes existed, they were shams, but they did exist.  Cataloged with the university, official classes that any student could take.  No one is arguing they weren’t a joke, that attendance was not monitored, grades were a joke, a professor didn’t teach it....100% agree.  The NCAA also agrees, but it doesn’t matter....any student could take them.  UNC decided that this is how they were going to run their university.  They were put on probation for a few years by the accrediting agency, made many changes to alleviate the sham classes, but nothing the NCAA can do about it.

This is 100% correct...and I just have to chuckle when I go to other message boards, and anytime something like this FBI probe is going on, and now that schools are going to be punished, everyone references how UNC got away with this that or the other. The NCAA couldn't do anything about it. That's the bottom line. No one has to like it, and no one does like it, but they didn't get away with anything as far as breaking NCAA rules goes. Fanbases can't be pissed off because one of their assistants was taking money to get players to their school, and then say "well UNC didn't get punished". UNC couldn't be punished. Arizona, KU, UL, they CAN be punished.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: MU82 on June 16, 2019, 08:37:42 AM
What are you talking about.  The classes existed, they were shams, but they did exist.  Cataloged with the university, official classes that any student could take.  No one is arguing they weren’t a joke, that attendance was not monitored, grades were a joke, a professor didn’t teach it....100% agree.  The NCAA also agrees, but it doesn’t matter....any student could take them.  UNC decided that this is how they were going to run their university.  They were put on probation for a few years by the accrediting agency, made many changes to alleviate the sham classes, but nothing the NCAA can do about it.

If you say so. Merry Xmas!
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: MomofMUltiples on June 16, 2019, 10:36:21 AM
I mean...why do things have to be "equal" to begin with anyway??

*wondering why this isn’t in teal...
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 16, 2019, 10:33:48 PM
If you say so. Merry Xmas!

The Raleigh News and Observer says so
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Pakuni on June 17, 2019, 10:25:13 AM
The NCAA has a built in audience of alumni, and "State-pride", viewers that tune in for the team, not the players on the roster.

Well, yes ... and no.
Are a lot of alums and "state-pride" people tuning in to watch Florida International  basketball? Or New Hampshire football?
Nope. Because they don't have the players that make those teams worth watching.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Pakuni on June 17, 2019, 10:43:25 AM
They get paid, then they should get zero scholarship and can pay for school.  I keep hearing this bullshyte argument that other students can endorse things....sure...and other students are paying tuition, and don't get free tutors, and free room and board, and a chance to audition several times a week to a future employer.  So if they want to do what other students do, start paying for school, going to class and then we can talk.

This silly argument ignores the fact that athletes in the revenue-producing sports contribute substantially more to their university than any other student. When 18,000 people fill the Fiserv to watch an engineering competition, or 110,000 pack the Big House to see a poetry reading, you might have a point. Until then, it's ludicrous.

Also, I'm saddened to learn that all academic and need-based scholarships, grants, co-op and internship programs, etc., have been eliminated.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Galway Eagle on June 17, 2019, 10:59:15 AM
This silly argument ignores the fact that athletes in the revenue-producing sports contribute substantially more to their university than any other student. When 18,000 people fill the Fiserv to watch an engineering competition, or 110,000 pack the Big House to see a poetry reading, you might have a point. Until then, it's ludicrous.

Also, I'm saddened to learn that all academic and need-based scholarships, grants, co-op and internship programs, etc., have been eliminated.

Short term perhaps, but long term I'd be curious. Let's take Stanford, id wager good money that the grads that contribute to tech start up in Silicon Valley have done more to further that school than the revenue producing sports. Same with Wharton Business, god knows how many people from duke, vandy, etc. heck I'd be very curious if Georgetown receives more money from high rolling alumni than the teams net rev.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Pakuni on June 17, 2019, 11:08:56 AM
Short term perhaps, but long term I'd be curious. Let's take Stanford, id wager good money that the grads that contribute to tech start up in Silicon Valley have done more to further that school than the revenue producing sports. Same with Wharton Business, god knows how many people from duke, vandy, etc. heck I'd be very curious if Georgetown receives more money from high rolling alumni than the teams net rev.

Beats me. Do the research and let me know.
But for purposes of this discussion, it's totally irrelevant, since we were discussing "students" not "alumni."

Of course, when you calculate, keep in mind that Stanford graduates a several thousand students (undergrad and masters) every year, but only about 20-25 from the football and men's basketball program. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison, right?
Also, keep in mind that most alumni don't give anything, or very little, after graduating, so you'll need to factor that into the equation as well.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Galway Eagle on June 17, 2019, 11:17:19 AM
Beats me. Do the research and let me know.
But for purposes of this discussion, it's totally irrelevant, since we were discussing "students" not "alumni."

Of course, when you calculate, keep in mind that Stanford graduates a several thousand students (undergrad and masters) every year, but only about 20-25 from the football and men's basketball program. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison, right?
Also, keep in mind that most alumni don't give anything, or very little, after graduating, so you'll need to factor that into the equation as well.

Bruh I've got a thesis to finish that's more than enough research for me was just trying to poke holes in the argument about who contributes more.

Well, yes ... and no.
Are a lot of alums and "state-pride" people tuning in to watch Florida International  basketball? Or New Hampshire football?
Nope. Because they don't have the players that make those teams worth watching.

Well I think it's because the standard of player is significantly less for them to the point where they know they won't be competitive. If the top 50 recruits all went pro and MU got stuck recruit 100-150 instead of 50-100 we'd all still watch because again it's the name on the front. Maybe some of the casual viewers would stop watching over time.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Pakuni on June 17, 2019, 11:21:08 AM
Bruh I've got a thesis to finish that's more than enough research for me was just trying to poke holes in the argument about who contributes more.

Bruh, that thesis hasn't kept you from 5,700+ posts here.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Galway Eagle on June 17, 2019, 11:25:14 AM
Bruh, that thesis hasn't kept you from 5,700+ posts here.

Well three of those were undergrad, then 5 years of being in the working world...or do you think I've been doing a thesis for 7yrs? Also I'd say if you look at my posts there's probably one hands worth of well researched posts  and none to the level of research you're asking :P
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: MU Fan in Connecticut on June 17, 2019, 11:56:30 AM
Oh, that means when Arizona is formerly acknowledged as cheating, Prescott Community College will get the death penalty.

You read my mind.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: MU82 on June 17, 2019, 12:56:56 PM
The Raleigh News and Observer says so

Since when do you care what newspapers say? Merry Xmas!
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 17, 2019, 01:04:00 PM
Since when do you care what newspapers say? Merry Xmas!

Hoist on his own petard - again!
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Slim on June 17, 2019, 01:13:55 PM
Well three of those were undergrad, then 5 years of being in the working world...or do you think I've been doing a thesis for 7yrs? Also I'd say if you look at my posts there's probably one hands worth of well researched posts  and none to the level of research you're asking :P

I’m guessing it is not a thesis in Mathematics.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Galway Eagle on June 17, 2019, 04:26:23 PM
I’m guessing it is not a thesis in Mathematics.

Lol typo but I'll keep it for the humor 🤗
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 17, 2019, 06:22:15 PM
This silly argument ignores the fact that athletes in the revenue-producing sports contribute substantially more to their university than any other student. When 18,000 people fill the Fiserv to watch an engineering competition, or 110,000 pack the Big House to see a poetry reading, you might have a point. Until then, it's ludicrous.

Also, I'm saddened to learn that all academic and need-based scholarships, grants, co-op and internship programs, etc., have been eliminated.

Those people are filling Michigan stadium whether the 4th string punter is on the team or not, same for the 3rd string LB that plays on special teams. They are going to cheer on the team with the name on the FRONT of the uniform, not on the back.

Guess what also contributes....the fact Michigan, Duke, Marquette, etc are on TV gives these guys a grand platform to showcase their wares every time out in exchange for a job, possibly millions in compensation.  If it wasn't for that platform, which the school and conference provide, they wouldn't be in line to make that money.  Goes both ways. 

You want to get paid....go pro, go to the G League....or pay your own tuition and all the costs involved.  If you don't want to get paid, then your education will be covered along with other costs of attendance. 
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 17, 2019, 06:23:35 PM
Since when do you care what newspapers say? Merry Xmas!

The ones with fraud reporters and agendas, I don't.  The ones that have written an outcome or purposely leave critical pieces of information out of their "reporting"...I don't.   Fortunately not all journalists are like this.  Unfortunately, too many are.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: 79Warrior on June 17, 2019, 06:53:11 PM
This silly argument ignores the fact that athletes in the revenue-producing sports contribute substantially more to their university than any other student. When 18,000 people fill the Fiserv to watch an engineering competition, or 110,000 pack the Big House to see a poetry reading, you might have a point. Until then, it's ludicrous.

Also, I'm saddened to learn that all academic and need-based scholarships, grants, co-op and internship programs, etc., have been eliminated.

Totally agree with you.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 17, 2019, 07:18:21 PM
Those people are filling Michigan stadium whether the 4th string punter is on the team or not, same for the 3rd string LB that plays on special teams. They are going to cheer on the team with the name on the FRONT of the uniform, not on the back.

Guess what also contributes....the fact Michigan, Duke, Marquette, etc are on TV gives these guys a grand platform to showcase their wares every time out in exchange for a job, possibly millions in compensation.  If it wasn't for that platform, which the school and conference provide, they wouldn't be in line to make that money.  Goes both ways. 


1. Has anyone suggested that the 3rd string LB or the 4th string punter is being denied compensation associated with selling their likeness?

2. Are you honestly suggesting the NBA and NFL discover their future players on TV?

Dumb.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Galway Eagle on June 17, 2019, 07:24:56 PM
1. Has anyone suggested that the 3rd string LB or the 4th string punter is being denied compensation associated with selling their likeness?

2. Are you honestly suggesting the NBA and NFL discover their future players on TV?

Dumb.

Is there any evidence that players who go to high major schools and get drafted in the lottery end up with higher shoe deals than Europe or mid major players? I only ask because that'd be pretty solid evidence that the money they make post college is impacted by having that launching platform of a well known program.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 17, 2019, 08:29:03 PM
Is there any evidence that players who go to high major schools and get drafted in the lottery end up with higher shoe deals than Europe or mid major players? I only ask because that'd be pretty solid evidence that the money they make post college is impacted by having that launching platform of a well known program.

Ja Morant from mid major Murray State signed a multi year deal with Nike that will likely only be eclipsed (among this year's draftees) only by the one Zion Williamson signs. Somehow the scouts and the $$$ found him despite the unattractive name on the front of his jersey and his lack of TV exposure. I'm sure Chico is shocked. I'm not.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 17, 2019, 10:13:31 PM
1. Has anyone suggested that the 3rd string LB or the 4th string punter is being denied compensation associated with selling their likeness?

2. Are you honestly suggesting the NBA and NFL discover their future players on TV?

Dumb.

Are you suggesting only the starters get paid?  Lol.  Good luck with that.  Look, this is where this all goes sideways.  In recruiting these kids will be guaranteed $$$ whether they ever play or not, that’s how the scam is going to work. 

On your second question, do I think scouts notice players at bigger schools that are media visible more than those that aren’t?  Uhm, yes.  I have quoted several scouts over the years here for NBA teams that I am friends with who will tell you the same thing. 

So not dumb at all.  With limited time and resources, the better players go to the better schools and are on tv more often on average, so yes it matters when trying to allocate time, money, resources.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 17, 2019, 10:16:55 PM
Ja Morant from mid major Murray State signed a multi year deal with Nike that will likely only be eclipsed (among this year's draftees) only by the one Zion Williamson signs. Somehow the scouts and the $$$ found him despite the unattractive name on the front of his jersey and his lack of TV exposure. I'm sure Chico is shocked. I'm not.

Yup, he is the rare case.  Should we rattle off the many players that were free agents or second round draft picks that ended up being very good players the scouts missed on because they weren’t at high majors and playing every game on tv?  Happy to do that but this week meetings with NBA, but will be happy to look into it next week when I have the time and inclination. 
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 17, 2019, 10:23:56 PM
Yup, he is the rare case.  Should we rattle off the many players that were free agents or second round draft picks that ended up being very good players the scouts missed on because they weren’t at high majors and playing every game on tv?  Happy to do that but this week meetings with NBA, but will be happy to look into it next week when I have the time and inclination.

LOL. You mean free agents like Wesley Matthews from never on TV Big East mid major Marquette? Lack of TV keeping guys from being "discovered"? The 1970s just called for you. Too funny.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 17, 2019, 10:31:02 PM
LOL. You mean free agents like Wesley Matthews from never on TV Big East mid major Marquette? Lack of TV keeping guys from being "discovered"? The 1970s just called for you. Too funny.

Exceptions to everything, again would you like to go through the list of players...more than happy after meetings are concluded next Tuesday.

We can start with undrafted Seth Curry who went to a small school rarely on TV...how does that sound Lenny?
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on June 17, 2019, 10:35:00 PM
Again, I don't think anyone is saying the schools aren't important or that most student-athletes (I would argue 99%) are fairly compensated. But if outside entities want to pay them for their likeness, I still haven't heard an argument against it other than "it will get abused." That's true, but I think the current system and any system will be abused so I don't think it's the strongest argument.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on June 17, 2019, 10:36:25 PM
What does mid-major players not getting drafted have to do with student-athletes being allowed to profit off their likeness? I got lost on the way from Point A to Point Q.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: MU82 on June 17, 2019, 10:39:06 PM
The ones with fraud reporters and agendas, I don't.  The ones that have written an outcome or purposely leave critical pieces of information out of their "reporting"...I don't.   Fortunately not all journalists are like this.  Unfortunately, too many are.

And you're the judge and jury of this? You, with extreme views and an ax to grind? You, who actually believes the free press is the enemy of the people?

That's rich.

You're just another guy with an opinion, just like anybody else.

Merry Xmas!
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on June 17, 2019, 10:41:22 PM
Exceptions to everything, again would you like to go through the list of players...more than happy after meetings are concluded next Tuesday.

We can start with undrafted Seth Curry who went to a small school rarely on TV...how does that sound Lenny?

Duke = small school rarely on TV
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: forgetful on June 17, 2019, 10:55:49 PM
This silly argument ignores the fact that athletes in the revenue-producing sports contribute substantially more to their university than any other student. When 18,000 people fill the Fiserv to watch an engineering competition, or 110,000 pack the Big House to see a poetry reading, you might have a point. Until then, it's ludicrous.

Also, I'm saddened to learn that all academic and need-based scholarships, grants, co-op and internship programs, etc., have been eliminated.

Enormously false. Examples:

Grad students at Northwestern contributed to the discovery of Lyrica. It currently brings in around $150-200M in PROFIT each year.

Similar stories at many big Universities. $1.8B in profits from tech per year. That doesn't include the Billions in revenue from research grants, that come from the work of graduates and undergraduates. Some big schools bring in revenue (and spend) in the billions of dollars every year off the backs of student researchers.

Revenue sports athletes are bringing in drops in a bucket compared to these other sources.

And these sources of revenue bring in net profits, that in turn are used to support other university endeavors, even being siphoned off to prop up sports departments that are operating at massive losses.

Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Pakuni on June 17, 2019, 11:06:42 PM
Those people are filling Michigan stadium whether the 4th string punter is on the team or not, same for the 3rd string LB that plays on special teams. They are going to cheer on the team with the name on the FRONT of the uniform, not on the back.

Let's try a little mental exercise to see if you really believe this nonsense.
If the Michigan athletic department decided tomorrow to stop giving football scholarships and instead assembled a team of walk ons from the student body, would 110K still show up on Saturdays to see that to lose 90-0 to Ohio State, Wisconsin and Penn Stat ... because of the name on the FRONT of the uniform?
Obviously not.
They show up because they have an expectation of Michigan football, and that expectation is built 100 percent around the idea that Michigan football will field a team of elite athletes which will compete at the highest level. Take away that expectation, and Michigan football = Beloit College football.

By the way, how many fans are buying Michigan jerseys with the 4th string punter's number on them?

Quote
Guess what also contributes....the fact Michigan, Duke, Marquette, etc are on TV gives these guys a grand platform to showcase their wares every time out in exchange for a job, possibly millions in compensation.  If it wasn't for that platform, which the school and conference provide, they wouldn't be in line to make that money. 

Kevin Garnett. Kobe Bryant. LeBron James. Jermaine O'Neal. Tracy McGrady. A'mare Stoudamire. Rashard Lewis. Tyson Chandler. Dwight Howard. Yao Ming. Giannis Antetokounmpo. Nikola Jokic.
These and many, many other players say you're wrong. Because these and many, many other players have landed jobs in the NBA and earned millions in compensation without this grand platform.
The idea that players need the NCAA in order to be seen by NBA scouts is beyond a doubt false.

Seriously, what could you possibly have against players being able to profit off their own likeness? Like, give us one good reason that doesn't involve some bogus slippery slope or chicken little argument.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Pakuni on June 17, 2019, 11:20:32 PM
Enormously false. Examples:

Grad students at Northwestern contributed to the discovery of Lyrica. It currently brings in around $150-200M in PROFIT each year.

Similar stories at many big Universities. $1.8B in profits from tech per year. That doesn't include the Billions in revenue from research grants, that come from the work of graduates and undergraduates. Some big schools bring in revenue (and spend) in the billions of dollars every year off the backs of student researchers.

Revenue sports athletes are bringing in drops in a bucket compared to these other sources.


And these sources of revenue bring in net profits, that in turn are used to support other university endeavors, even being siphoned off to prop up sports departments that are operating at massive losses.

No, this is enormously misleading. Crediting students for these revenues is akin to crediting team managers for NCAA tournament shares and the girl who carries Nick Saban's headset for Alabama's bowl revenue

Lyrica was, in fact, invented by a Northwestern professor with help from a visiting professor from Poland, not grad students. And given that the school sold away its royalty rights years ago, it seems unlikely, they school is netting a $200 million PROFIT each year.
Facts matter.

https://research.northwestern.edu/news/legacy-lyrica
https://dailynorthwestern.com/2016/04/10/in-focus/in-focus-as-lyrica-profits-dry-up-northwestern-seeks-another-blockbuster-drug/

Likewise, research grants aren't earned by students. They're obtained by faculty and staff. At most, students serve as lab assistants, but the important work and discovery is done by the faculty.


Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: forgetful on June 18, 2019, 12:14:49 AM
No, this is enormously misleading. Crediting students for these revenues is akin to crediting team managers for NCAA tournament shares and the girl who carries Nick Saban's headset for Alabama's bowl revenue

Lyrica was, in fact, invented by a Northwestern professor with help from a visiting professor from Poland, not grad students. And given that the school sold away its royalty rights years ago, it seems unlikely, they school is netting a $200 million PROFIT each year.
Facts matter.

https://research.northwestern.edu/news/legacy-lyrica
https://dailynorthwestern.com/2016/04/10/in-focus/in-focus-as-lyrica-profits-dry-up-northwestern-seeks-another-blockbuster-drug/

Likewise, research grants aren't earned by students. They're obtained by faculty and staff. At most, students serve as lab assistants, but the important work and discovery is done by the faculty.

You are out of your league here, and misguided.

Research professors and staff are the equivalent of coaching staffs. They recruit, train, guide and direct students in research. The actual research is done by grad students, postdocs, and some undergraduates.

They generate the data, analyze it, come up with new ideas, and are the ones getting discoveries.

Check your inbox for more.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on June 18, 2019, 06:25:38 AM
Superbar... and boring
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Charlotte Warrior on June 18, 2019, 06:37:02 AM
Bruh, that thesis hasn't kept you from 5,700+ posts here.
That's funny!!!!
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: KampusFoods on June 18, 2019, 07:42:01 AM
Duke = small school rarely on TV

 ;D
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 18, 2019, 08:00:39 AM
Exceptions to everything, again would you like to go through the list of players...more than happy after meetings are concluded next Tuesday.

We can start with undrafted Seth Curry who went to a small school rarely on TV...how does that sound Lenny?


Seth Curry played his last three years at Duke.  It's kind of a small school but my understanding is that it's on TV quite often.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 18, 2019, 08:15:18 AM
Exceptions to everything, again would you like to go through the list of players...more than happy after meetings are concluded next Tuesday.

We can start with undrafted Seth Curry who went to a small school rarely on TV...how does that sound Lenny?

Seth Curry went to Liberty for one year then transferred to Duke. All of his games were on TV and he went undrafted. His brother Steph went to Davidson, played on a much smaller stage (rarely on national TV) and was drafted with the #7 pick in the first round.

So, to answer your question, "How does that sound?" as a rebuttal? It sounds dumb, a total refutation of a point you tried to make.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 18, 2019, 08:17:27 AM
Are you suggesting only the starters get paid?  Lol.  Good luck with that.  Look, this is where this all goes sideways.  In recruiting these kids will be guaranteed $$$ whether they ever play or not, that’s how the scam is going to work. 


How is that a "scam?"  Let's say Nike signs all players who go to Michigan to $2,000 deals.  Eventually they sign the top players for larger deals. 

How is that a scam?  How does it "go sideways?"  I fail to understand how any of this is a problem.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 18, 2019, 08:33:58 AM
And you're the judge and jury of this? You, with extreme views and an ax to grind? You, who actually believes the free press is the enemy of the people?

That's rich.

You're just another guy with an opinion, just like anybody else.

Merry Xmas!

Yup, just an opinion shared by nearly 72% of the nation that say the media knowingly publishes false information to push their POV.   They did it to themselves for all to see.  But you are correct, just our opinions.

Merry Christmas to one and all. 
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 18, 2019, 08:34:34 AM
Duke = small school rarely on TV

Point taken, double for the good sarcasm
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 18, 2019, 08:43:58 AM

How is that a "scam?"  Let's say Nike signs all players who go to Michigan to $2,000 deals.  Eventually they sign the top players for larger deals. 

How is that a scam?  How does it "go sideways?"  I fail to understand how any of this is a problem.

For a number of reasons.  Pakuni is arguing, it seems, that only the stars will be compensated....I call BS on that which create an enormous recruiting advantage for rich schools during the recruiting process.  The rich will get even richer, schools will drop out because they can no longer compete and throw their hands up....that means less opportunities for kids, mostly minorities by the way.

Through the course of time most ncaa problems with schools has been around money and essentially bribing kids to play there.  I fail to see how you don’t recognize this as a problem.  Now, I know there are people that believe if you just do everything above board it solves the problem....like making drugs legal eliminates drug violence and illegal sales, or prostitution, or fill in the blank.....of course we know in reality that is pure BS, but people believe in unicorns.   Your $2000 example will become $10k under the table because a new market will be set and human beings, who love to cheat and scam the system, will do exactly that.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Uncle Rico on June 18, 2019, 08:46:35 AM
Set the bagmen free
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 18, 2019, 08:52:31 AM
For a number of reasons.  Pakuni is arguing, it seems, that only the stars will be compensated....I call BS on that which create an enormous recruiting advantage for rich schools during the recruiting process.  The rich will get even richer, schools will drop out because they can no longer compete and throw their hands up....that means less opportunities for kids, mostly minorities by the way.

Of course it's a recruiting advantage.  Schools already have recruiting advantages.  That's life.

And I find your hand-wringing about minorities and scholarship opportunities really convenient since you seem to be aghast at giving students such opportunities when it comes to dropping standardized test requirements.  Not to mention that's a slippery slope argument that doesn't seem to have much basis in reality.  More and more athletic scholarships are available now when compared to a generation ago, yet the "resource gap" between schools has widened considerably.  More forces are at work than you are acknowledging.


Through the course of time most ncaa problems with schools has been around money and essentially bribing kids to play there.  I fail to see how you don’t recognize this as a problem.  Now, I know there are people that believe if you just do everything above board it solves the problem....like making drugs legal eliminates drug violence and illegal sales, or prostitution, or fill in the blank.....of course we know in reality that is pure BS, but people believe in unicorns.   Your $2000 example will become $10k under the table because a new market will be set and human beings, who love to cheat and scam the system, will do exactly that.

You are comparing college age students getting additional income to attend school with drugs and prostitution.  Just let that sink in for a moment.  It doesn't take a genius to realize that drug use and prostitution have other negative benefits on society.  Giving college kids additional money really doesn't.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: StillAWarrior on June 18, 2019, 08:59:17 AM
Again, I don't think anyone is saying the schools aren't important or that most student-athletes (I would argue 99%) are fairly compensated. But if outside entities want to pay them for their likeness, I still haven't heard an argument against it other than "it will get abused." That's true, but I think the current system and any system will be abused so I don't think it's the strongest argument.

I agree with every word of this.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Pakuni on June 18, 2019, 09:01:58 AM
For a number of reasons.  Pakuni is arguing, it seems, that only the stars will be compensated....I call BS on that which create an enormous recruiting advantage for rich schools during the recruiting process.  The rich will get even richer, schools will drop out because they can no longer compete and throw their hands up....that means less opportunities for kids, mostly minorities by the way.
No, I actually never said that.

But don't rich schools already have an enormous recruiting advantage? Do you not believe the recruiting budget at Duke and Kentucky is substantially larger than at UW-Green Bay and Wright State? Do you think North Texas and Troy football programs aren't at a facilities disadvantage to Alabama and Texas A&M?

How does allowing players to profit from their likeness - say, by appearing in an ad for a local car dealership or signing a deal with adidas - force Stetson and High Point to drop their programs? It changes nothing for those programs.

Lastly, aren't there already huge "compensation" gaps? You frequently cite the value of a scholarship, i.e. tuition, access to facilities, coaching, etc. But these things aren't the same at every program.
Isn't the value of, say, a Michigan education greater than Cleveland State? Isn't the coaching at Duke or Kansas better than San Jose State? Aren't the facilities at Marquette or Kentucky better than Chicago State or Prairie View A&M?

Huge inequities exist in the system. Nothing about allowing a kid to profit off his likeness changes or exacerbates that.

Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 18, 2019, 09:02:04 AM
Seth bad example, and I deserve the pummeling. 

Will give better effort.  Bruce Bowen.  Ben Wallace.  Avery Johnson.  Raja Bell.  JJ Barea.  Jeremy Lin.  Dellevedova.  Tim Legler.  Connie Hawkins.  Michael James.  Troy Hudson.  Etc etc
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 18, 2019, 09:02:14 AM
I agree with every word of this.

Yes. Anytime you create situations where outside entities put a ceiling on income, "the market" will work to find ways to subvert that ceiling.  It's simple economics.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 18, 2019, 09:10:03 AM
Yes. Anytime you create situations where outside entities put a ceiling on income, "the market" will work to find ways to subvert that ceiling.  It's simple economics.

American taxation system where ceilings or tiers = penalties.  Fortunately that system is a model of stability and honesty........
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 18, 2019, 09:11:38 AM
Again, I don't think anyone is saying the schools aren't important or that most student-athletes (I would argue 99%) are fairly compensated. But if outside entities want to pay them for their likeness, I still haven't heard an argument against it other than "it will get abused." That's true, but I think the current system and any system will be abused so I don't think it's the strongest argument.

So other than it will lead to more cheating and more corruption, it is ok and not a good argument.  Uhm, ok.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 18, 2019, 09:16:30 AM
American taxation system where ceilings or tiers = penalties.  Fortunately that system is a model of stability and honesty........

Right. Thanks for proving my point.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 18, 2019, 09:16:59 AM
So other than it will lead to more cheating and more corruption, it is ok and not a good argument.  Uhm, ok.


How will it lead to more cheating and more corruption?
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Pakuni on June 18, 2019, 09:17:35 AM
So other than it will lead to more cheating and more corruption, it is ok and not a good argument.  Uhm, ok.

Classic slippery slope. It will lead to more cheating and more corruption ... because you say it will?
In reality, it's just as likely to lead to less cheating and corruption. There's no longer any reason for shoe companies, etc. to pay kids under the table and, besides the existing disincentives for that, the NCAA could create new ones. Likewise, if players can make money above board, there would be disincentive for them to "cheat" via the threat of losing that "legal" compensation.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 18, 2019, 09:18:00 AM
Of course it's a recruiting advantage.  Schools already have recruiting advantages.  That's life.

And I find your hand-wringing about minorities and scholarship opportunities really convenient since you seem to be aghast at giving students such opportunities when it comes to dropping standardized test requirements.  Not to mention that's a slippery slope argument that doesn't seem to have much basis in reality.  More and more athletic scholarships are available now when compared to a generation ago, yet the "resource gap" between schools has widened considerably.  More forces are at work than you are acknowledging.


You are comparing college age students getting additional income to attend school with drugs and prostitution.  Just let that sink in for a moment.  It doesn't take a genius to realize that drug use and prostitution have other negative benefits on society.  Giving college kids additional money really doesn't.

No, I am showing examples of arguments by people if you just bring it above board it solves everything.  No, it doesn’t...that was the point.

On admissions, Asians are minorities in this country...right?  Thanks.  Are more and more athletic scholarships going to be available if schools drop out because they cannot afford where some want to take this? 

Yes, schools have recruiting advantages that are built in and nothing can be done about weather, coeds, school size, etc.  This is why rules and guidelines are created where there can be some constraint elsewhere on things that are controlled....that is entirely the point.  Whether that is Standard Oil or a school offering to pay players, this is why governing agencies are created to try and balance market forces and some reasonable level of fairness.  No such thing as a free market, and the reason for that is complete destruction of the market if left to its own devices.  College athletics is not immune to this either.


Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 18, 2019, 09:24:18 AM
Classic slippery slope. It will lead to more cheating and more corruption ... because you say it will?
In reality, it's just as likely to lead to less cheating and corruption. There's no longer any reason for shoe companies, etc. to pay kids under the table and, besides the existing disincentives for that, the NCAA could create new ones. Likewise, if players can make money above board, there would be disincentive for them to "cheat" via the threat of losing that "legal" compensation.

Just make pot legal and it will eliminate the black market.  Remember that one.  LOL.

Just grant amnesty and it will not happen again....pinky promise.  Lol

There are 1000’s of such ridiculous claims in history that just easing this, or easing that was going to cure the problem.  Nope.

Your last sentence is the best one....except it ignores human action in wanting more.  By this logic the $5k stipend is in jeopardy now if cheating goes on, so surely it has stopped or disincentivizing bad behavior since that was instituted....oh wait....it hasn’t, because there is always someone wanting more, someone willing to offer it, worth the risk, and the cycle continues with even more corruption.  This is what dishonest people do all the time.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 18, 2019, 09:28:43 AM
Just make pot legal and it will eliminate the black market.  Remember that one.  LOL.


Because the black market is cheaper.  Proves my point once again.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 18, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
No, I am showing examples of arguments by people if you just bring it above board it solves everything.  No, it doesn’t...that was the point.

On admissions, Asians are minorities in this country...right?  Thanks.  Are more and more athletic scholarships going to be available if schools drop out because they cannot afford where some want to take this? 

Yes, schools have recruiting advantages that are built in and nothing can be done about weather, coeds, school size, etc.  This is why rules and guidelines are created where there can be some constraint elsewhere on things that are controlled....that is entirely the point.  Whether that is Standard Oil or a school offering to pay players, this is why governing agencies are created to try and balance market forces and some reasonable level of fairness.  No such thing as a free market, and the reason for that is complete destruction of the market if left to its own devices.  College athletics is not immune to this either.


The ironic thing, and I don't even think you realized this when you said it, is that the Standard Oil in this case is the NCAA.  It sets the level of compensation and does not allow freer market conditions to take place.  It uses a market dominant position to squelch competition. 
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on June 18, 2019, 09:33:43 AM
My “gaydar” is sounding a five alarm alert!!
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 18, 2019, 09:35:23 AM

The ironic thing, and I don't even think you realized this when you said it, is that the Standard Oil in this case is the NCAA.  It sets the level of compensation and does not allow freer market conditions to take place.  It uses a market dominant position to squelch competition.

Hardly.  The SEC is the NCAA if we want to attempt an analogy, though it is poor because the ncaa has so little power and is made up of the very institutions it is trying to apply rules to.  Standard Oil is akin to Kentucky, or Alabama, or Memphis.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Nukem2 on June 18, 2019, 09:38:05 AM
Hardly.  The SEC is the NCAA if we want to attempt an analogy, though it is poor because the ncaa has so little power and is made up of the very institutions it is trying to apply rules to.  Standard Oil is akin to Kentucky, or Alabama, or Memphis.
Yep, and guess who makes the rules.....the membership.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 18, 2019, 09:40:43 AM
Hardly.  The SEC is the NCAA if we want to attempt an analogy, though it is poor because the ncaa has so little power and is made up of the very institutions it is trying to apply rules to.  Standard Oil is akin to Kentucky, or Alabama, or Memphis.


You show a fundamental lack of understanding here.  The NCAA, as Nukem says, it the membership.  The membership is working together to keep the costs low and the sponsorship income to itself.  It's a monopolistic cartel.  Similar to Standard Oil.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: 79Warrior on June 18, 2019, 10:47:43 AM
Yep, and guess who makes the rules.....the membership.

Ding ding ding!
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Nukem2 on June 18, 2019, 10:57:59 AM

You show a fundamental lack of understanding here.  The NCAA, as Nukem says, it the membership.  The membership is working together to keep the costs low and the sponsorship income to itself.  It's a monopolistic cartel.  Similar to Standard Oil.
All 354 Div I, or whatever #, members belong.  That’s hardly a monopoly especially when you consider the many lesser members.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Silkk the Shaka on June 18, 2019, 11:02:24 AM
Seth Curry went to Liberty for one year then transferred to Duke. All of his games were on TV and he went undrafted. His brother Steph went to Davidson, played on a much smaller stage (rarely on national TV) and was drafted with the #7 pick in the first round.

So, to answer your question, "How does that sound?" as a rebuttal? It sounds dumb, a total refutation of a point you tried to make.

Legit LOL, thank you for that
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: StillAWarrior on June 18, 2019, 11:05:05 AM
Seth Curry went to Liberty for one year then transferred to Duke. All of his games were on TV and he went undrafted. His brother Steph went to Davidson, played on a much smaller stage (rarely on national TV) and was drafted with the #7 pick in the first round.

So, to answer your question, "How does that sound?" as a rebuttal? It sounds dumb, a total refutation of a point you tried to make.

Oof!  That's gonna leave a mark.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Hards Alumni on June 18, 2019, 11:20:36 AM
No, I am showing examples of arguments by people if you just bring it above board it solves everything.  No, it doesn’t...that was the point.

On admissions, Asians are minorities in this country...right?  Thanks.  Are more and more athletic scholarships going to be available if schools drop out because they cannot afford where some want to take this? 


Yes, schools have recruiting advantages that are built in and nothing can be done about weather, coeds, school size, etc.  This is why rules and guidelines are created where there can be some constraint elsewhere on things that are controlled....that is entirely the point.  Whether that is Standard Oil or a school offering to pay players, this is why governing agencies are created to try and balance market forces and some reasonable level of fairness.  No such thing as a free market, and the reason for that is complete destruction of the market if left to its own devices.  College athletics is not immune to this either.

Is this a serious argument that you're trying to make?  Stupidity on display folks.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Loose Cannon on June 18, 2019, 11:23:53 AM
Yup, just an opinion shared by nearly 72% of the nation that say the media knowingly publishes false information to push their POV.   They did it to themselves for all to see.  But you are correct, just our opinions.

Merry Christmas to one and all.

Sinclair.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on June 18, 2019, 12:02:14 PM
Is this a serious argument that you're trying to make?  Stupidity on display folks.
Once Chico's states his opinion, he finds it impossible to ever change his mind no matter what evidence or arguments are made. Thus, he is reduced to making dumber and dumber arguments to try to reduce his cognitive dissonance.

It is the same phenomenon as the people who scream "fake news!" anytime they are confronted with a fact that doesn't align with their beliefs.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 18, 2019, 01:05:36 PM
All 354 Div I, or whatever #, members belong.  That’s hardly a monopoly especially when you consider the many lesser members.


Of course it's a monopoly.  It is the largest sanctioning body in college sports by a mile, and works to keep compensation low.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Nukem2 on June 18, 2019, 01:11:41 PM

Of course it's a monopoly.  It is the largest sanctioning body in college sports by a mile, and works to keep compensation low.
Hmmm, the members could easily change that.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 18, 2019, 01:21:02 PM
Hmmm, the members could easily change that.


Of course they could.  They're incentivized not to.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Nukem2 on June 18, 2019, 02:36:50 PM

Of course they could.  They're incentivized not to.
So, it’s 354 monopolies?  It’s not the organization.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 18, 2019, 02:39:04 PM
So, it’s 354 monopolies?  It’s not the organization.


It's 354 organizations speaking and performing as one. 
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Pakuni on June 18, 2019, 02:51:48 PM
So, it’s 354 monopolies?  It’s not the organization.

Would you prefer "Cartel?"
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: MU82 on June 18, 2019, 03:14:07 PM
Yup, just an opinion shared by nearly 72% of the nation that say the media knowingly publishes false information to push their POV.   They did it to themselves for all to see.  But you are correct, just our opinions.

Merry Christmas to one and all.

Perfect. Let's go with majority on all issues

Abortion totally legal. Significantly more gun control than what's in place now. Some form of universal health care. End of gerrymandering. Etc.

Oh, and while we're at it, U.S. must change results of 2000 and 2016 elections.

Because, you know, what the majority says is always right!

Merry Xmas! (Don't forget to keep X in Xmas.)
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 18, 2019, 04:30:20 PM
Perfect. Let's go with majority on all issues

Abortion totally legal. Significantly more gun control than what's in place now. Some form of universal health care. End of gerrymandering. Etc.

Oh, and while we're at it, U.S. must change results of 2000 and 2016 elections.

Because, you know, what the majority says is always right!

Merry Xmas! (Don't forget to keep X in Xmas.)

Mike - I'm willing to wager that the majority has no idea what gerrymandering is.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: rocky_warrior on June 18, 2019, 04:54:08 PM
Next political post earns a ban!
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on June 18, 2019, 05:12:22 PM
(https://forum.warthunder.com/uploads/monthly_2018_05/efdfe13deed4b2eb5d5e34b1dd0639d1--great-ideas-gifs.jpg.b0946898010bebd96566c5e2dbc381bc.jpg)
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 18, 2019, 07:15:48 PM

You show a fundamental lack of understanding here.  The NCAA, as Nukem says, it the membership.  The membership is working together to keep the costs low and the sponsorship income to itself.  It's a monopolistic cartel.  Similar to Standard Oil.

Funny, several posts before this I said that the ncaa is the membership. I also said this yesterday and have said this for years here.  I get the understanding just fine, which is why I also said it is a flawed analogy.  That said, I do not believe it is the same as Standard Oil analogy at all.  Standard Oil was trying to use pricing leverage and purposely undercutting competitors to drive them out of business to form a monopoly.  That NCAA is an association of 1000’s of universities with voting rights, etc with the ultimate purpose nothing of the kind of Standard Oil.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 18, 2019, 07:21:38 PM
Perfect. Let's go with majority on all issues

Abortion totally legal. Significantly more gun control than what's in place now. Some form of universal health care. End of gerrymandering. Etc.

Oh, and while we're at it, U.S. must change results of 2000 and 2016 elections.

Because, you know, what the majority says is always right!

Merry Xmas! (Don't forget to keep X in Xmas.)

LOL.  Someone smarting that 3/4 of the country doesn’t trust their profession when the erosion was all done by their own actions.  It used to be a highly respected profession....remember when two sources were needed...ahh, those were the good old days.  Remember when opinions were not to be included in straight reporting?  Ahh, the memories.

Your examples, while cute, are way off target....due to things like the US Constitution.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 18, 2019, 07:23:19 PM
Once Chico's states his opinion, he finds it impossible to ever change his mind no matter what evidence or arguments are made. Thus, he is reduced to making dumber and dumber arguments to try to reduce his cognitive dissonance.

It is the same phenomenon as the people who scream "fake news!" anytime they are confronted with a fact that doesn't align with their beliefs.

That’s funny, I admitted I was wrong here only a few hours ago....so your statement is fake news....meaning you made a statement that it was IMPOSSIBLE for me to admit, when I did so in this very thread only hours ago.  That, is the very definition of fake news....congratulations.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 18, 2019, 07:24:49 PM
Is this a serious argument that you're trying to make?  Stupidity on display folks.

What is the concern here?

Please enlighten us.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 18, 2019, 07:27:05 PM

Because the black market is cheaper.  Proves my point once again.

Except that wasn’t the argument made to legalize, the argument was it would drive away the black market entirely.  Oopsie...as some of us predicted, it absolutely would not.  For the same reason paying players or compensating them in other ways is a fool’s errand that it will slow or curtail the desire for even more money.  It is ridiculous argument and absolutely will do the exact opposite.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 18, 2019, 07:34:54 PM
No, I actually never said that.

But don't rich schools already have an enormous recruiting advantage? Do you not believe the recruiting budget at Duke and Kentucky is substantially larger than at UW-Green Bay and Wright State? Do you think North Texas and Troy football programs aren't at a facilities disadvantage to Alabama and Texas A&M?

How does allowing players to profit from their likeness - say, by appearing in an ad for a local car dealership or signing a deal with adidas - force Stetson and High Point to drop their programs? It changes nothing for those programs.

Lastly, aren't there already huge "compensation" gaps? You frequently cite the value of a scholarship, i.e. tuition, access to facilities, coaching, etc. But these things aren't the same at every program.
Isn't the value of, say, a Michigan education greater than Cleveland State? Isn't the coaching at Duke or Kansas better than San Jose State? Aren't the facilities at Marquette or Kentucky better than Chicago State or Prairie View A&M?

Huge inequities exist in the system. Nothing about allowing a kid to profit off his likeness changes or exacerbates that.

The rich will get even richer, the poor even poorer.  Eventually some of these schools will say they can no longer compete at all and drop down, or reduce investment.

I’d like to know why we want universities to have institutional control over athletic programs and now all of a sudden think it is a swell idea to have third part car dealerships, etc paying players to endorse their products?  I’m spending the next two days doing commercials with very high profile NFL players that companies spend a lot of money on. The demands that go with that money is extreme, and require agents and all kinds of extra stuff to make sure everything is on the up and up.  I think some of you think Junior is going to get a check for $5000 to pitch for Bob Davis Ford and that’s that. Just wait until junior who is endorsed gets in trouble, will there be morality clauses in these deals?  Who reimburses the dealership when that happens...the student athlete? 

 It’s never as simple as that which is why this is an enormous can of worms, let alone the competitive piece for various schools.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: 79Warrior on June 18, 2019, 07:40:22 PM
Except that wasn’t the argument made to legalize, the argument was it would drive away the black market entirely.  Oopsie...as some of us predicted, it absolutely would not.  For the same reason paying players or compensating them in other ways is a fool’s errand that it will slow or curtail the desire for even more money.  It is ridiculous argument and absolutely will do the exact opposite.

Is that it?
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: StillAWarrior on June 18, 2019, 07:51:06 PM
Next political post earns a ban!

You get a ban!  You get a ban!  You get a ban!  Everybody gets a ban!
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 18, 2019, 08:00:25 PM
Is that it?

I’m not allowed to answer properly or risk a temporary ban, but I think you know the answer to your silly question.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on June 18, 2019, 08:12:54 PM
I’m not allowed to answer properly or risk a temporary ban, but I think you know the answer to your silly question.
You've already been banned a dozen times or more, what's one more? 
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on June 18, 2019, 08:24:32 PM
That’s funny, I admitted I was wrong here only a few hours ago....so your statement is fake news....meaning you made a statement that it was IMPOSSIBLE for me to admit, when I did so in this very thread only hours ago.  That, is the very definition of fake news....congratulations.
No, you admited you misstated an irrefutable fact, because you simply forgot Curry had transferred.  But nothing will make you change your opinions.  Nothing. 
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: jesmu84 on June 18, 2019, 08:47:20 PM
Except that wasn’t the argument made to legalize, the argument was it would drive away the black market entirely.  Oopsie...as some of us predicted, it absolutely would not.  For the same reason paying players or compensating them in other ways is a fool’s errand that it will slow or curtail the desire for even more money.  It is ridiculous argument and absolutely will do the exact opposite.

Really? There was only one singular argument for legalization?

Also, there's nearly a black market for everything on Earth. So I doubt anyone actually believed the "entirely" part.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 18, 2019, 09:04:36 PM
Really? There was only one singular argument for legalization?

Also, there's nearly a black market for everything on Earth. So I doubt anyone actually believed the "entirely" part.


Bingo.

Regardless, this is a very weird way for him to make his case.  But I'm done because he just seems to want to be right no matter how absurd he has to be to get there.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on June 18, 2019, 09:32:04 PM
Next political post earns a ban!

LOL.  Someone smarting that 3/4 of the country doesn’t trust their profession when the erosion was all done by their own actions.  It used to be a highly respected profession....remember when two sources were needed...ahh, those were the good old days.  Remember when opinions were not to be included in straight reporting?  Ahh, the memories.

Your examples, while cute, are way off target....due to things like the US Constitution.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/EXNc9JhIF2xrO/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: jesmu84 on June 18, 2019, 10:01:01 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/EXNc9JhIF2xrO/giphy.gif)

(https://media.giphy.com/media/LpkBAUDg53FI8xLmg1/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: MU82 on June 18, 2019, 10:21:06 PM
Next political post earns a ban!

Yessir.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 19, 2019, 12:06:02 AM
No, you admited you misstated an irrefutable fact, because you simply forgot Curry had transferred.  But nothing will make you change your opinions.  Nothing.

More fake news from you.  Lazy on your part, too.  Nothing, never, always....lazy.  My opinions change at times, so simply fakes news by you.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 19, 2019, 12:10:06 AM
Really? There was only one singular argument for legalization?

Also, there's nearly a black market for everything on Earth. So I doubt anyone actually believed the "entirely" part.

No, but I can see where I stated “the argument” and should have stated “an argument”, but it was a significant one, which of course was proven to be incorrect.  My apologies.  You can do a search here on this very site of people making the argument as well as Op Eds on the subject and how it was going to render the black market obsolete.....I would think obsolete is a pretty good synonym to “entirely”. 
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Cheeks on June 19, 2019, 12:12:07 AM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/EXNc9JhIF2xrO/giphy.gif)

Interesting, I thought my comment was a legal comment....you know, grounded in legal rights granted to us by that document.  Interesting. 
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Bocephys on June 19, 2019, 03:16:04 AM
Interesting, I thought my comment was a legal comment....you know, grounded in legal rights granted to us by that document.  Interesting.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/hDoGqZUHVEI/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Hards Alumni on June 19, 2019, 09:24:48 AM
What is the concern here?

Please enlighten us.

First off, there is no us.  Unless you're carrying a turd around in your pocket.

You seem to be implying that Asians as a minority are successful, so other minorities should also be successful.  Like Asians.  Am I off the mark here?
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Bad_Reporter on June 19, 2019, 10:07:47 AM
First off, there is no us.  Unless you're carrying a turd around in your pocket.

You seem to be implying that Asians as a minority are successful, so other minorities should also be successful.  Like Asians.  Am I off the mark here?

This could get fun.  I’d actually like to here people’s opinions on that. My wife is Asian, naturally her mother is as well.  Her mother grew up dirt poor in Korea.  My mother-in-law eventually went to school to be a doctor.  She did well in her life, and my wife also did well compared to most peoples standards. 

I notice the Asian culture works their a**es off in anything they do. (Not saying other ethnicities don’t). I personally believe the majority of Asians have a higher IQ then Caucasian’s, and every other race.  I also think Asians aren’t typically as athletically gifted as whites, African Americans, and other races.

Does that make it wrong or politically incorrect because those are my personal findings and experiences? I don’t think it does

Bail, and Mike, what do you think the reason is for the differences between cultures?  PM me if needed

Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 19, 2019, 10:18:31 AM
This could get fun.  I’d actually like to here people’s opinions on that. My wife is Asian, naturally her mother is as well.  Her mother grew up dirt poor in Korea.  My mother-in-law eventually went to school to be a doctor.  She did well in her life, and my wife also did well compared to most peoples standards. 

I notice the Asian culture works their a**es off in anything they do. (Not saying other ethnicities don’t). I personally believe the majority of Asians have a higher IQ then Caucasian’s, and every other race.  I also think Asians aren’t typically as athletically gifted as whites, African Americans, and other races.

Does that make it wrong or politically incorrect because those are my personal findings and experiences? I don’t think it does

Bail, and Mike, what do you think the reason is for the differences between cultures?  PM me if needed



I thought Reggie White was dead.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Hards Alumni on June 19, 2019, 10:41:01 AM
This could get fun.  I’d actually like to here people’s opinions on that. My wife is Asian, naturally her mother is as well.  Her mother grew up dirt poor in Korea.  My mother-in-law eventually went to school to be a doctor.  She did well in her life, and my wife also did well compared to most peoples standards. 

I notice the Asian culture works their a**es off in anything they do. (Not saying other ethnicities don’t). I personally believe the majority of Asians have a higher IQ then Caucasian’s, and every other race.  I also think Asians aren’t typically as athletically gifted as whites, African Americans, and other races.

Does that make it wrong or politically incorrect because those are my personal findings and experiences? I don’t think it does

Bail, and Mike, what do you think the reason is for the differences between cultures?  PM me if needed

stereotypes, anecdotes, and 'beliefs'.

Lordy.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: brewcity77 on June 19, 2019, 10:58:05 AM
Does that make it wrong

Let's keep it simple. Yes.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on June 19, 2019, 11:09:09 AM
This could get fun.  I’d actually like to here people’s opinions on that. My wife is Asian, naturally her mother is as well.  Her mother grew up dirt poor in Korea.  My mother-in-law eventually went to school to be a doctor.  She did well in her life, and my wife also did well compared to most peoples standards. 

I notice the Asian culture works their a**es off in anything they do. (Not saying other ethnicities don’t). I personally believe the majority of Asians have a higher IQ then Caucasian’s, and every other race.  I also think Asians aren’t typically as athletically gifted as whites, African Americans, and other races.

Does that make it wrong or politically incorrect because those are my personal findings and experiences? I don’t think it does

Bail, and Mike, what do you think the reason is for the differences between cultures?  PM me if needed
Ah, the wonders of Scoop that a thread on NCAA penalties got here.  Just as Ners could make every thread about Derrick and Dawson, so too can Chicos make every thread into this sort of nonsense.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: StillAWarrior on June 19, 2019, 11:11:44 AM
Ah, the wonders of Scoop that a thread on NCAA penalties got here.  Just as Ners could make every thread about Derrick and Dawson, so too can Chicos make every thread into this sort of nonsense.

So too can a half-dozen people (including Chicos) make every thread about Chicos.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: MU82 on June 19, 2019, 11:21:32 AM
This could get fun.  I’d actually like to here people’s opinions on that. My wife is Asian, naturally her mother is as well.  Her mother grew up dirt poor in Korea.  My mother-in-law eventually went to school to be a doctor.  She did well in her life, and my wife also did well compared to most peoples standards. 

I notice the Asian culture works their a**es off in anything they do. (Not saying other ethnicities don’t). I personally believe the majority of Asians have a higher IQ then Caucasian’s, and every other race.  I also think Asians aren’t typically as athletically gifted as whites, African Americans, and other races.

Does that make it wrong or politically incorrect because those are my personal findings and experiences? I don’t think it does

Bail, and Mike, what do you think the reason is for the differences between cultures?  PM me if needed

Given the spelling and grammar "hear," you might want to worry first about "you're" own IQ, Reggie.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: Galway Eagle on June 19, 2019, 11:32:22 AM
This could get fun.  I’d actually like to here people’s opinions on that. My wife is Asian, naturally her mother is as well.  Her mother grew up dirt poor in Korea.  My mother-in-law eventually went to school to be a doctor.  She did well in her life, and my wife also did well compared to most peoples standards. 

I notice the Asian culture works their a**es off in anything they do. (Not saying other ethnicities don’t). I personally believe the majority of Asians have a higher IQ then Caucasian’s, and every other race.  I also think Asians aren’t typically as athletically gifted as whites, African Americans, and other races.

Does that make it wrong or politically incorrect because those are my personal findings and experiences? I don’t think it does

Bail, and Mike, what do you think the reason is for the differences between cultures?  PM me if needed

I always thinking it's funny when people say Asian as if there isn't 49 countries and 60% of the worlds population.
Title: Re: Here come the judge...
Post by: GOO on June 19, 2019, 11:33:02 AM
This could get fun.  I’d actually like to here people’s opinions on that. My wife is Asian, naturally her mother is as well.  Her mother grew up dirt poor in Korea.  My mother-in-law eventually went to school to be a doctor.  She did well in her life, and my wife also did well compared to most peoples standards. 

I notice the Asian culture works their a**es off in anything they do. (Not saying other ethnicities don’t). I personally believe the majority of Asians have a higher IQ then Caucasian’s, and every other race.  I also think Asians aren’t typically as athletically gifted as whites, African Americans, and other races.

Does that make it wrong or politically incorrect because those are my personal findings and experiences? I don’t think it does

Bail, and Mike, what do you think the reason is for the differences between cultures?  PM me if needed

Not true, there is actually no IQ difference between races when taking other factors into account.

I read a wikipedia on bias a few times a year to help keep my self in check a bit  (there are many forms of bias that we need to be reminded of). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias

I also read the following book once in a while to be reminded of just how biased we are as humans based upon our limited experiences and that we try to extrapolate too much based upon our limited experiences ("We are all prisoners of our own experience" I think Arthur Schlesinger Jr. said this and something I always keep in mind):  Anyway, a great book:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/michael-lewiss-brilliant-new-book-about-cognitive-bias-1480982097

Reading this site is usually one case of bias after another.  The most prevalent one here is "well I really believe it strongly and with a lot of emotion so it must be true...: bias.