collapse

* Resources


UDM 4

* 2018-2019 SOTG


2018-19 Season SoG Tally
Howard11
S Hauser4
John4
Anim3
Chartouny2

'17-18 * '16-17 *
'15-16'14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

Recruiting as of 9/15/19 by Johnny B
[Today at 07:41:43 PM]


Top 100 players named by Three Man Weave by JWags85
[Today at 07:22:30 PM]


Give me a break Joey by wadesworld
[Today at 07:15:25 PM]


26 years ago today... by Warrior Code
[Today at 06:51:05 PM]


[Cracked Sidewalks] Seton Hall Preview by Dr. Blackheart
[Today at 06:21:42 PM]


NM by GooooMarquette
[Today at 05:43:54 PM]


Open Practice video by Mr. Sand-Knit
[Today at 12:05:13 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: St. Norbert (Exhibition)

Marquette
Marquette vs

St Norbert

Date/Time: Oct 29, 2019 - 7:00pm
TV: None
Schedule for 2019-20
24-10

Author Topic: A macro view of P6 coaches  (Read 8809 times)

Uncle Rico

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 644
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #75 on: June 13, 2019, 11:44:45 PM »
TAMU was talking about Deane's last 4 years and Wojo's last 4 years. Unlike Deane -- who was handed Miller, Eford, McCaskill, Pieper and Abraham from a team that went to the S16 under K.O. -- Wojo had some rebuilding to do in Year 1.

In his fifth and final year, Deane won 14 games, finished last in Conference USA American division and recruited terribly; Wojo won 23 games, finished second in the Big East and already has snagged a 4-star recruit and a transfer big. Deane was clearly trending down in Year 5, Wojo was clearly trending up.

Game ... set ... match.

If Wojo has a year like Mike Deane this year, Wojo won’t be back.
Alleged Slurper

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12064
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #76 on: June 13, 2019, 11:47:59 PM »
If Wojo has a year like Mike Deane this year, Wojo won’t be back.


Yep, and none of us even got into creepy Deane getting drunk and trying to pick up 20-year-olds.

It's such a silly comparison that it should be way beneath guru ... but when you strongly dislike a coach or athlete as guru strongly dislikes Wojo, you get desperate to twist facts and make a case that isn't there.

Mike Deane. That's hilarious.
“Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.”

— Thomas Jefferson

Uncle Rico

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 644
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #77 on: June 13, 2019, 11:57:05 PM »

Yep, and none of us even got into creepy Deane getting drunk and trying to pick up 20-year-olds.

It's such a silly comparison that it should be way beneath guru ... but when you strongly dislike a coach or athlete as guru strongly dislikes Wojo, you get desperate to twist facts and make a case that isn't there.

Mike Deane. That's hilarious.

The ‘96 Tournament team lost as 4-seed to 12-seed Arkansas in the second round.  Thank god scoop wasn’t around for that “debacle”.

The ‘97 Tournament team needed 4 straight wins in St. Louis to make the NCAA Tournament.  Kudos to Deane and the team for doing so, but it took some luck to get in where they promptly got waxed by Providence, the 10-seed.

Things went downhill from there.  They had a nice run in the ‘98 NIT but the talent had dropped a lot from what O’Neill left.  It’s no surprise Crean came in and did a full rebuild.
Alleged Slurper

TAMU Eagle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 15994
  • A Reading from Wojo's 1st Slide to the Marquettens
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #78 on: June 14, 2019, 12:58:43 AM »
Hmmm...

1994–95    Marquette    21–12    
1995–96    Marquette    23–8    
1996–97    Marquette    22–9    
1997–98    Marquette    20–11

Those were Mike Deane's first four years at MU...No matter how many times I add it up..I get 86 wins..which is ACTUALLY 2 more than Wojo had after 4 years.

You seemed to have forgotten the conversation we were having. Let me remind you. You posted this:

I will leave this here...in another thread, Tower said people don't fire Coaches that have won 84 games in 4 years like Wojo has.

The 84 games Wojo has won have come in the last 4 years, not his first 4 years. Since you brought this up and started comparing him to Deane, I compared Dean's last 4 years to Wojo's last 4. Wojo won 5 more games in his last 4 years than Deane did, despite playing in a much tougher conference. Also, Wojo's best season came in the final of those seasons (trending up) while Deane's worst season came in the final season (trending down)

Now let's look at these next column(s) side by side...

Coach A

Low majorConf record([1stLast four years).....
                                                10-4 (2nd)
                                                 9-5  (4th)
                                                 8-8  (4th)
                                                 6-10 (6th)

Post Season(1stLast four years)     
                                                 NCAA 2nd round
                                                 NCAA 1st round
                                                 NIT Quarterfinals
                                                 No Postseason

Coach B

High MajorConf record(1stLast 4 years)         
                                               8-10 (7th)
                                               10-8 (T-3rd)
                                                9-9  (T-6th)
                                               12-6 (2nd)

Post season (1stLast 4 years)       
                                                 None
                                                 NCAA Round 1
                                                 NIT Quarters
                                                 NCAA Round 1

I made some edits to properly reflect what we were talking about.

So...To recap...In the first 4 years...Deane had more overall wins..Higher finishes in the conference ALL 4 years, more post season success(whether you want to say the NIT matters or not, some here use that FOR Wojo)....Yet...Deane got fired...again..Deane was better in EVERY meaningful area than Wojo was his first 4 years..You are under the table for Wojo...and yet say it didn't take stones to fire Deane, it took logic?? Based on EVERY meaningful criteria that every Wojo backer here uses to SUPPORT Wojo, Deane was better. It took STONES to fire Deane...If all you can come back with is "uhhhh well, uhhh Wojo's trendline is better, and uhhh it's a stronger conference", that's moving the goalposts 110%.

So...if it took "logic" to fire Deane...being better in EVERY area(and Coaching aspect isn't even close), then it it definitely is/was MORE than logical to fire Wojo.

Numbers don't lie....but is it lying when you present them in a way that doesn't show the whole picture? Cause it seems like you intentionally removed Deane's worst year (which was also his last) and Wojo's best year (which was also his last). You also are equating Conference USA to the Big East, which if anyone else was doing you would call them a moron.

No goalposts have been shifted. You just ignored the only thing that matters when judging a coach. Is he improving the program as he goes along? Or making it worse? Wojo took over a team that missed the postseason and lost 6/7 of its top players in minutes played and now has teams capable of earning 5 seeds in the NCAA tournament. Deane took over a team coming of a Sweet 16 that did lose three key players but kept everyone else and in 5 years managed to piss it all away.

You keep wanting to ignore trend because you know it defeats your argument. Since you like Deane/Wojo comparison, how about another comparison?

Coach A First Six Years:
118-73 record (.617)
44-54 conference record (.448)
No Postseason
NIT Finals
NIT Quarterfinals
NCAA (Elite Eight)
NCAA (Sweet 16)
NCAA (Round of 32)

Coach B Full 6 Years:
127-79 record (.617)
59-49 conference record (.546)
No Postseason (due to postseason ban, would have been a high seed)
NCAA (National Champions)
NIT First Round
NCAA (Second Round)
No Postseason
No Postseason

Since you say numbers don't lie, you would have to say Coach B is the better coach. Same record, better conference record, national championship trumps Elite Eight and Sweet 16, sure Coach A has one more NIT instead of a no postseason but who cares about the NIT?

I think most people would notice that Coach A started poorly and then built his program into a yearly contender whereas Coach B started really strong (likely with their predecessor's recruits) and then started tanking the program. I would go with Coach A.

If you didn't guess already, Coach A is Jim Calhoun, Coach B is Kevin Ollie.

Do you need any more lessons, young man?? I'd be happy to teach you, like I just did here..took yo uto school...consider it post college education :)

Anyone else that chimes in...save all your weak ass arguments..you have NONE. ZERO, ZILCH. The numbers don't lie. Game...set...match.               

I think I am good. But I would like to hear your justification on how a recruiting class of Krunti Hester was evidence that Deane's recruiting was trending up.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

MUMonster03

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 467
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #79 on: June 14, 2019, 01:21:21 AM »
Butler and Xavier would be counter-examples to this. They change coaches frequently, and the replacement is often simply the promotion of an assistant.

Lets take Xavier: I don't know if they are considered "elite level", but with 19 NCAA appearances over the past 25 years, including 3 Elite Eights and 4 Sweet 16s, I would call that "winning year in and year out."  And they did it without a long tenured coach.

When Pete Gillen left, they hired former assistant Skip Prosser after a 1 year stint at Loyola MD.  When Prosser left, they hired Thad Matta from Butler--their only true outside hire in the past 25 years.  When Matta left they promoted Sean Miller. When Miller left, they promoted Chris Mack.  When Mack left they promoted Travis Steele.

And I don't think they ever navel gazed over who they should hire from the outside, should it be a top-level assistant or a rising mid-major coach, whether they were experienced enough, or prestigious enough or won enough.

Maybe its splitting hairs, but I don't see a single long-tenured coach as necessary. You can get the same kind of continuity if you hire from your own coaching and playing ranks.

But is our goal really to be a Butler or Xavier? Two schools with 0 NC's and 2 FF's?

They have continued to be successful, in terms o making the tournament, but think about where the could be if Stevens and Miller or Matta hadn't left. Butler would definitely be better if they hadn't had so much churn in the last few years and while Xavier did okay in year 1 with Steele we have seen many coaches come out of the gate fast only to flame out in a year or two.

It seems most successful schools either have given their coach plenty of time as the success slowly grows over a decade, or have hired someone with 5 or so years at a smaller school where they have been able to establish a system and can implement it quickly at a bigger school with better talent. There will always be an outlier or two.

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 14790
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #80 on: June 14, 2019, 03:06:27 AM »
Deane also had said that Marquette fans should be content with occasional trips to the dance.    Wojo's statements indicate he is not willing to settle for such mediocrity.   Still has work to do, but has higher expectations for the program.      Shocking that you would celebrate someone willing to settle for mediocrity and criticize someone with higher goals he is working toward.   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

Galway Eagle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6053
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #81 on: June 14, 2019, 03:10:23 AM »
You seemed to have forgotten the conversation we were having. Let me remind you. You posted this:

The 84 games Wojo has won have come in the last 4 years, not his first 4 years. Since you brought this up and started comparing him to Deane, I compared Dean's last 4 years to Wojo's last 4. Wojo won 5 more games in his last 4 years than Deane did, despite playing in a much tougher conference. Also, Wojo's best season came in the final of those seasons (trending up) while Deane's worst season came in the final season (trending down)

I made some edits to properly reflect what we were talking about.

Numbers don't lie....but is it lying when you present them in a way that doesn't show the whole picture? Cause it seems like you intentionally removed Deane's worst year (which was also his last) and Wojo's best year (which was also his last). You also are equating Conference USA to the Big East, which if anyone else was doing you would call them a moron.

No goalposts have been shifted. You just ignored the only thing that matters when judging a coach. Is he improving the program as he goes along? Or making it worse? Wojo took over a team that missed the postseason and lost 6/7 of its top players in minutes played and now has teams capable of earning 5 seeds in the NCAA tournament. Deane took over a team coming of a Sweet 16 that did lose three key players but kept everyone else and in 5 years managed to piss it all away.

You keep wanting to ignore trend because you know it defeats your argument. Since you like Deane/Wojo comparison, how about another comparison?

Coach A First Six Years:
118-73 record (.617)
44-54 conference record (.448)
No Postseason
NIT Finals
NIT Quarterfinals
NCAA (Elite Eight)
NCAA (Sweet 16)
NCAA (Round of 32)

Coach B Full 6 Years:
127-79 record (.617)
59-49 conference record (.546)
No Postseason (due to postseason ban, would have been a high seed)
NCAA (National Champions)
NIT First Round
NCAA (Second Round)
No Postseason
No Postseason

Since you say numbers don't lie, you would have to say Coach B is the better coach. Same record, better conference record, national championship trumps Elite Eight and Sweet 16, sure Coach A has one more NIT instead of a no postseason but who cares about the NIT?

I think most people would notice that Coach A started poorly and then built his program into a yearly contender whereas Coach B started really strong (likely with their predecessor's recruits) and then started tanking the program. I would go with Coach A.

If you didn't guess already, Coach A is Jim Calhoun, Coach B is Kevin Ollie.

I think I am good. But I would like to hear your justification on how a recruiting class of Krunti Hester was evidence that Deane's recruiting was trending up.

This. So much this.
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

TSmith34

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2547
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #82 on: June 14, 2019, 07:51:32 AM »
Do you need any more lessons, young man?? I'd be happy to teach you, like I just did here..took yo uto school...consider it post college education :)

Anyone else that chimes in...save all your weak ass arguments..you have NONE. ZERO, ZILCH. The numbers don't lie. Game...set...match.
                       
Ah yes, the Make a Horrible and Inaccurate Argument and Do A Victory Dance approach.  What an ass.
"Bigly mentally unstable, believe me.  Sad, unbelievably sad."

TSmith34

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2547
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #83 on: June 14, 2019, 07:52:25 AM »
TAMU was talking about Deane's last 4 years and Wojo's last 4 years. Unlike Deane -- who was handed Miller, Eford, McCaskill, Pieper and Abraham from a team that went to the S16 under K.O. -- Wojo had some rebuilding to do in Year 1.

In his fifth and final year, Deane won 14 games, finished last in Conference USA American division and recruited terribly; Wojo won 23 games, finished second in the Big East and already has snagged a 4-star recruit and a transfer big. Deane was clearly trending down in Year 5, Wojo was clearly trending up.

Game ... set ... match.
^This.  Nice post 82
"Bigly mentally unstable, believe me.  Sad, unbelievably sad."

Fluffy Blue Monster

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1718
  • When I'm in Holland I eat the pannenkoeken
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #84 on: June 14, 2019, 08:17:32 AM »
Anyone who thinks that at the end of Deane's tenure the basketball program was in a *better* place than it is now, needs to have their head examined.  That is an insanely dumb comment.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12064
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #85 on: June 14, 2019, 08:56:39 AM »
guru:

This Deane argument you tried to make -- and failed horribly at it -- is why some Scoopers can't take you seriously. You are so blinded by your dislike of the current coach, and are so desperate to prove that he is a failure (and that you are a basketball savant), that you ignore facts and reason.

Your claims that you see things others miss, that you are more competitive than others, and that you have forgotten more about basketball than the rest of us know ... well, those can now be joined by a couple of new ones that will live on in infamy:

"Do you need any more lessons, young man??" and "Game...set...match."

guru, most of us (and certainly I) appreciate your passion for Marquette hoops. We all want the team to win big. Your continued claims that you know more about basketball (and specifically MU hoops) than anybody else does and care more about the program than anybody else does ... those ring hollow when you make (to quote you) "weak ass arguments."

Hang in there, big guy. You aren't the first to be schooled by TAMU (and others).             
“Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.”

— Thomas Jefferson

Silent Verbal

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #86 on: June 14, 2019, 09:41:07 AM »
Deane also had said that Marquette fans should be content with occasional trips to the dance.    Wojo's statements indicate he is not willing to settle for such mediocrity.   Still has work to do, but has higher expectations for the program.      Shocking that you would celebrate someone willing to settle for mediocrity and criticize someone with higher goals he is working toward.

At the time Deane made that comment, he might not have been far off.  We were in a middling conference, had crap facilities, and aside from a brief revival courtesy of KO, it had been 20 years since we’d been any good.  I wholeheartedly disagree with what he said, but I can see where he was coming from.  Thankfully we got rid of him and brought in a coach who knew we could be more.

Wojo’s comments on the subject of postseason success have been guarded at best.  He’s talked about how “the only expectations I care about are the expectations we have internally” and also said, “This is a program that will win a lot of games in March.”  In the recent Athletic article, he basically restated that second one and added, “It just hasn’t happened yet,” while not giving any sort of timeline on when it would, lest he paint himself into a corner.  Sure, he wants to win postseason games, but given the resources we have now as opposed to where we were under Deane, that’s the expectation.

While I do believe Wojo is better than Deane, he’s building a similar culture:  Recruit well-behaved student athletes who make the dance occasionally.  Wojo should be held to the standard of Crean and Buzz (our two most successful coaches since Al) and he hasn’t been so far.  Saying he’s better than Deane is faint praise.

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12064
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #87 on: June 14, 2019, 09:57:29 AM »
Wojo should be held to the standard of Crean and Buzz (our two most successful coaches since Al) and he hasn’t been so far.  Saying he’s better than Deane is faint praise.

We agree on this, and I'm pretty sure most other Scoopers do, too.

I believe he will be held to that higher standard when he faces similar circumstances, and I believe that time is approaching. Or at least I hope it is.
“Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.”

— Thomas Jefferson

Fluffy Blue Monster

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1718
  • When I'm in Holland I eat the pannenkoeken
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #88 on: June 14, 2019, 09:57:37 AM »
We were not in a "middling" conference back then.  In Deane's last year, CUSA was third in conference RPI - ahead of both the ACC and the Big East.  Ended the year with four NCAA bids - same as the Pac 10 and one more than the ACC.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12064
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #89 on: June 14, 2019, 10:01:05 AM »
We were not in a "middling" conference back then.  In Deane's last year, CUSA was third in conference RPI - ahead of both the ACC and the Big East.  Ended the year with four NCAA bids - same as the Pac 10 and one more than the ACC.

Good stats. Thanks.

Of course, Deane's final team finished dead last in its division and had a losing record. Regardless of how strong the league is, that's unacceptable.

Put it together with his middling body of work, his terrible recruiting, his downward trend and his off-court behavior, and it was an easy decision to fire him.

Any comparisons between Deane and Wojo remain silly. Maybe we should bring back the Dukiet-to-Wojo comparisons. Those were fun, too.
“Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.”

— Thomas Jefferson

muguru

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3730
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #90 on: June 14, 2019, 10:07:06 AM »
At the time Deane made that comment, he might not have been far off.  We were in a middling conference, had crap facilities, and aside from a brief revival courtesy of KO, it had been 20 years since we’d been any good.  I wholeheartedly disagree with what he said, but I can see where he was coming from.  Thankfully we got rid of him and brought in a coach who knew we could be more.

Wojo’s comments on the subject of postseason success have been guarded at best.  He’s talked about how “the only expectations I care about are the expectations we have internally” and also said, “This is a program that will win a lot of games in March.”  In the recent Athletic article, he basically restated that second one and added, “It just hasn’t happened yet,” while not giving any sort of timeline on when it would, lest he paint himself into a corner.  Sure, he wants to win postseason games, but given the resources we have now as opposed to where we were under Deane, that’s the expectation.

While I do believe Wojo is better than Deane, he’s building a similar culture:  Recruit well-behaved student athletes who make the dance occasionally. Wojo should be held to the standard of Crean and Buzz (our two most successful coaches since Al) and he hasn’t been so far.  Saying he’s better than Deane is faint praise.

Here's what I think the Wojo supporters fail to get...Both Crean and Buzz had better first 5 years than Wojo has...yet, no one seems to care about that(or they say it's irrelevant for some reason). Wojo doesn't seem to be held to that same standard.

For some reason, some fans have seem to fallen into that "recruits good kids that make the dance occasionally" trap. Suddenly that's acceptable, since that's part of the refrain they always recite when judging Wojo. It's also acceptable to the administration seemingly. The apathy surrounding the program from the outside is noticeable, and it's sad.

Here's the deal...I want to unite us all...have us all want the same thing...so here's my offer to the fellow scoopers...if Wojo wins a National Championship in the next two years, you will not see me ever again(be on too much of a high the rest of my life to care about anything else, especially posting).

Plus...and this is sincere, I will throw in a pair(unworn) of MU powder blue air Jordan low's(to one lucky scooper) that they were selling a couple of years ago..

Now...I hope you will all join me in rooting for MU to win the Natty in the next couple of years...they win, we ALL win!  ;)
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

Fluffy Blue Monster

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1718
  • When I'm in Holland I eat the pannenkoeken
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #91 on: June 14, 2019, 10:12:38 AM »
Here's what I think the Wojo supporters fail to get...Both Crean and Buzz had better first 5 years than Wojo has...yet, no one seems to care about that(or they say it's irrelevant for some reason). Wojo doesn't seem to be held to that same standard.


I'm sorry but what are you talking about here?  It's obvious that Wojo hasn't met the same standards as Crean or Buzz.  Is anyone disputing that?

But since neither one of those guys was fired, how that that be a reason to get rid of Wojo now? 


For some reason, some fans have seem to fallen into that "recruits good kids that make the dance occasionally" trap. Suddenly that's acceptable, since that's part of the refrain they always recite when judging Wojo.

Who has said this?
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12064
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #92 on: June 14, 2019, 10:22:33 AM »
Here's what I think the Wojo supporters fail to get...Both Crean and Buzz had better first 5 years than Wojo has...yet, no one seems to care about that(or they say it's irrelevant for some reason). Wojo doesn't seem to be held to that same standard.

For some reason, some fans have seem to fallen into that "recruits good kids that make the dance occasionally" trap. Suddenly that's acceptable, since that's part of the refrain they always recite when judging Wojo. It's also acceptable to the administration seemingly. The apathy surrounding the program from the outside is noticeable, and it's sad.

Here's the deal...I want to unite us all...have us all want the same thing...so here's my offer to the fellow scoopers...if Wojo wins a National Championship in the next two years, you will not see me ever again(be on too much of a high the rest of my life to care about anything else, especially posting).

Plus...and this is sincere, I will throw in a pair(unworn) of MU powder blue air Jordan low's(to one lucky scooper) that they were selling a couple of years ago..

Now...I hope you will all join me in rooting for MU to win the Natty in the next couple of years...they win, we ALL win!  ;)

Nice attempt to deflect from being totally schooled by TAMU and others on the ridiculous Deane comparisons, even if this new post also makes strawman arguments.

You keep making various "bets" that involve you never posting on Scoop again. I don't want that and I don't think most others do, either. We just want you to make sense when you do post, and to not post with such an obvious agenda.

We certainly agree on wanting the Warriors to be great again.
“Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.”

— Thomas Jefferson

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 19732
  • Alan Bykowski
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #93 on: June 14, 2019, 10:32:30 AM »
Here's what I think the Wojo supporters fail to get...Both Crean and Buzz had better first 5 years than Wojo has...yet, no one seems to care about that(or they say it's irrelevant for some reason). Wojo doesn't seem to be held to that same standard.

This is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

For some reason, some fans have seem to fallen into that "recruits good kids that make the dance occasionally" trap. Suddenly that's acceptable, since that's part of the refrain they always recite when judging Wojo. It's also acceptable to the administration seemingly. The apathy surrounding the program from the outside is noticeable, and it's sad.

No one has ever said that. No one has ever indicated that would be acceptable. The pro-Wojo argument is that building a successful program takes time. You can't have sustained success without the time necessary to determine if it's being sustained.

Here's the deal...I want to unite us all...have us all want the same thing...so here's my offer to the fellow scoopers...if Wojo wins a National Championship in the next two years, you will not see me ever again(be on too much of a high the rest of my life to care about anything else, especially posting).

This is a really weird pivot.

Plus...and this is sincere, I will throw in a pair(unworn) of MU powder blue air Jordan low's(to one lucky scooper) that they were selling a couple of years ago.

This is an even weirder pivot. The goodbye guru sweepstakes?

Now...I hope you will all join me in rooting for MU to win the Natty in the next couple of years...they win, we ALL win!  ;)

I don't think anyone expects that in the next two years. I am hoping in the next 10. Very few coaches win titles in the first 7 years of their career.

Herman Cain

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 7303
  • 9-9-9
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #94 on: June 14, 2019, 10:38:46 AM »
TAMU was talking about Deane's last 4 years and Wojo's last 4 years. Unlike Deane -- who was handed Miller, Eford, McCaskill, Pieper and Abraham from a team that went to the S16 under K.O. -- Wojo had some rebuilding to do in Year 1.

In his fifth and final year, Deane won 14 games, finished last in Conference USA American division and recruited terribly; Wojo won 23 games, finished second in the Big East and already has snagged a 4-star recruit and a transfer big. Deane was clearly trending down in Year 5, Wojo was clearly trending up.

Game ... set ... match.
Wojo had no rebuilding to do in year one. He threw Deonte Burton, who played in the NBA this year under the bus. John Dawson who has played in the G League was part of the collateral damage as well. All self inflicted wounds. Ners has documented all this in great depth in case you need more detail.

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 14790
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #95 on: June 14, 2019, 10:38:53 AM »
IMO, So far,  Wojo is basically Crean without Wade.    Although I think Wojo is a more consistent recruiter.    Also, I still believe Wojo has a higher ceiling than Crean, as evidenced by what Crean has done in the 17 seasons as a D1 coach without Wade.   Now, the everlasting eternal debate point is this..... is that enough?
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 19732
  • Alan Bykowski
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #96 on: June 14, 2019, 10:52:24 AM »
Wojo had no rebuilding to do in year one. He threw Deonte Burton, who played in the NBA this year under the bus. John Dawson who has played in the G League was part of the collateral damage as well. All self inflicted wounds. Ners has documented all this in great depth in case you need more detail.

He didn't throw Burton under the bus. Burton transferred as stated repeatedly due to family issues. John Dawson was clearly not a high major player. He had one quality high major game, against Georgetown. The G League is full of bit players like Dawson that were not high major quality.

muguru

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3730
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #97 on: June 14, 2019, 11:03:47 AM »
Nice attempt to deflect from being totally schooled by TAMU and others on the ridiculous Deane comparisons, even if this new post also makes strawman arguments.

You keep making various "bets" that involve you never posting on Scoop again. I don't want that and I don't think most others do, either. We just want you to make sense when you do post, and to not post with such an obvious agenda.

We certainly agree on wanting the Warriors to be great again.

Was NOT schooled by TAMU(he wishes). TAMU was using what he THOUGHT Tower was saying...because that's the only way it fit his argument.

This is exactly what tower said....." But there aren't many programs that fire coaches averaging 21 wins a season for four years".

He did NOT say the last 4 years specifically...he said averages 21 wins a season FOR 4 years. So TAMU somehow, wants to say Tower SAID Wojo's last 4 years...he NEVER said that. TAMU made an assumption(perhaps logically). However, that disregards Wojo's first year, which was absolute trash. Factor that in, and Wojo has NOT averaged 21 years over 4 years. So that's disingenuous. I got accused of "disregarding" Deane's last year. Well apparently Tower "threw out" Wojo's first year...so we must be "disregarding" both Coaches worst season's to date, and getting our averages that way, right??

But, let's cherry pick to fit our argument however we want. So let's use Wojo's FIRST four years instead...no one liked me NOT including Deane's last year(I used his first 4)...so let's do APPLES to APPLES...Shall we??

Mike Deane: 86 wins his first 4 years..Hmmm that averages 21.5 wins per year. Let's go back to what Tower said EXACTLY shall we?? But there aren't many programs that fire coaches averaging 21 wins a season for four years".

Wojo had: 73 wins his first four years...that averages 18.25 wins per year. Now the cries are going to be "totally unfair to dismiss Wojo's season last year, it was his best year".  ::) Remember..Tower never said specifically the LAST 4 years.

But it fits the Pro Wojo crowd to say the last 4 years, because this trendline thing that they take as freaking gospel.

Mike Deane was 100-55(.645) in his 5 years

Wojo is 97-69(.584) in his 5 years.

Everyone wants to "disregard" Wojo's first year because he had to "rebuild". The season happened, you can't just ignore it when it's convenient. 4 years is 4 years. Numbers are numbers..Guy averages 21 wins over a 4 year span, he averages 21 wins over a 4 year span...throwing out a year, middle years, last four, first 4, it doesn't matter...it's all the same #'s. Unless of course you want to make excuse, THEN it matters.

School will continue to be in session for anyone that's interested in attending...free of charge. Just sign up here, and we can get started.

Tower's EXACT quote again...But there aren't many programs that fire coaches averaging 21 wins a season for four years".

Except Marquette did just that. I'd bet anyone MASSIVE amounts of coin if Cords were still the AD, Wojo would be on VERY thin ice, if not gone. Cords had stones.


“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

muguru

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3730
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #98 on: June 14, 2019, 11:43:31 AM »
Okay, for all of you "you must be patient" people..Let's say Wojo is here another 5 years, and produces relatively the same results as the first 5...now it's been 10 years, and where has it gotten you?? What I'm saying is..regardless of HIS or anyone's trend line(which so many use as gospel here), that doesn't guarantee you squat about how the future will play out with him. That's why I find it ironic, that the people that say patience is the way to go, yet point to his trend line like that is some "magical" future telling device. It's not.

Sometimes, you just have to go with your gut, don't you?? Either this guy is going to take us where we ultimately want to go, or he isn't. That can be done after 3 years, 4 years 5 years etc. You have to just "feel" it. What if this is Wojo's ceiling, and he still gets another 3-4 years(minimum). Then what?/ You have essentially wasted at least those last 3-4 years, hoping you'd find a unicorn, when if you would have acted sooner, you would have been able to recover quicker.

Now of course, it also matters what the expectations of the people running the show REALLY are(not what they say in public). You can see SOME indications, this is fine with them.

“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

Fluffy Blue Monster

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1718
  • When I'm in Holland I eat the pannenkoeken
Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #99 on: June 14, 2019, 11:47:46 AM »
Okay, for all of you "you must be patient" people..Let's say Wojo is here another 5 years, and produces relatively the same results as the first 5...now it's been 10 years, and where has it gotten you?? What I'm saying is..regardless of HIS or anyone's trend line(which so many use as gospel here), that doesn't guarantee you squat about how the future will play out with him. That's why I find it ironic, that the people that say patience is the way to go, yet point to his trend line like that is some "magical" future telling device. It's not.

Sometimes, you just have to go with your gut, don't you?? Either this guy is going to take us where we ultimately want to go, or he isn't. That can be done after 3 years, 4 years 5 years etc. You have to just "feel" it. What if this is Wojo's ceiling, and he still gets another 3-4 years(minimum). Then what?/ You have essentially wasted at least those last 3-4 years, hoping you'd find a unicorn, when if you would have acted sooner, you would have been able to recover quicker.


And maybe MU "feels" that this isn't his ceiling and he can be better.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow