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Author Topic: Help on the way for 19/20?  (Read 74366 times)

Marquetteauburn

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #375 on: April 29, 2019, 04:03:56 PM »

So I really have to describe why I would prefer a top 50 freshman prospect to a couple guys who played in the America East?

Fair enough for long term, but the counter argument is that freshman really are bad more than 90 percent of the time for a year. The reason Buzz had the unbelievable run was he started with one year of the Three Amigos and was able to bring JUCOS who could start at a much higher level than freshmen.

First off, let me admit I thought Chartouney was a good get - but hopefully the difference in underestimating the adjustment for a point guard moving up to a conference with incredible guards would not be the same for these guys coming into a Big East that really did not have the dominant big men.

In Value Add, I have Yeboah in the top 20% of all players and Demir in the top 25% of all players, which is adjusted for level of competition and makes them solid contributors, or the 6th and 7th best players on our team last year with the problem being of course that the Hausers were 2nd and 3rd. However, Morrow, John and Bailey were all better than Joey the last couple of months so if you told me we were throwing them both into the 8-man rotation I would say it's not a bad mix, which is not to say we would have ever up front traded Joey and Sam away of course.

Positives:
They were both substantially better defensive rebounders than Joey (20.1 def reb % and 19.1 to 15.9 for Joey) which even adjusted for competition says they are better.

Im guessing Yeboah would be a major upgrade at getting to his man on the perimeter than Joey was with the constantly late rotation that led to open 3 pointers.

The both draw fouls much better than either Hauser, and between them shoot an above average 75% which is of course much worse than Sam but actually better than Joey the last couple of months.

For me the biggest thing is I just want someone in the mix behind Bailey if someone is killing us with offensive rebounds since that is the one area where Bailey will probably always be below average - so definitely happy for visits.


muguru

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #376 on: April 29, 2019, 06:11:47 PM »
I would hate having that lineup because Johnson isn't a great rim protector and whoever was guarding the 4 wouldn't have a prayer of keeping up with most Big East PFs.

I don't mean regularly, I mean for end of game situations only, where the other team has one shot and down 1 or 2.
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muguru

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #377 on: April 29, 2019, 06:13:42 PM »
He is a whole lot better than Heldt and would challenge Theo and Ed

This +1000...he instantly would become the best rebounder on the team by a fairly significant margin actually.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

MuMark

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #378 on: April 29, 2019, 06:59:49 PM »
5.6 block  percentage isn't elite like Theo but it's ok......better then Ed last season.

Excellent rebounder. On both ends of the court as Guru mentioned.

We have the space and he can play.

muguru

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #379 on: April 29, 2019, 07:36:29 PM »
5.6 block  percentage isn't elite like Theo but it's ok......better then Ed last season.

Excellent rebounder. On both ends of the court as Guru mentioned.

We have the space and he can play.

This is correct, to expound on the rebounding a bit more..his rates were elite.. 14.1% O-Reb%(27th in the country), 27.5 D-reb%(23rd in the country) . Averaged 1.1BPG(179th in the country).
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

Herman Cain

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #380 on: April 29, 2019, 10:07:45 PM »
Fair enough for long term, but the counter argument is that freshman really are bad more than 90 percent of the time for a year. The reason Buzz had the unbelievable run was he started with one year of the Three Amigos and was able to bring JUCOS who could start at a much higher level than freshmen.

First off, let me admit I thought Chartouney was a good get - but hopefully the difference in underestimating the adjustment for a point guard moving up to a conference with incredible guards would not be the same for these guys coming into a Big East that really did not have the dominant big men.

In Value Add, I have Yeboah in the top 20% of all players and Demir in the top 25% of all players, which is adjusted for level of competition and makes them solid contributors, or the 6th and 7th best players on our team last year with the problem being of course that the Hausers were 2nd and 3rd. However, Morrow, John and Bailey were all better than Joey the last couple of months so if you told me we were throwing them both into the 8-man rotation I would say it's not a bad mix, which is not to say we would have ever up front traded Joey and Sam away of course.

Positives:
They were both substantially better defensive rebounders than Joey (20.1 def reb % and 19.1 to 15.9 for Joey) which even adjusted for competition says they are better.

Im guessing Yeboah would be a major upgrade at getting to his man on the perimeter than Joey was with the constantly late rotation that led to open 3 pointers.

The both draw fouls much better than either Hauser, and between them shoot an above average 75% which is of course much worse than Sam but actually better than Joey the last couple of months.

For me the biggest thing is I just want someone in the mix behind Bailey if someone is killing us with offensive rebounds since that is the one area where Bailey will probably always be below average - so definitely happy for visits.
The value add analysis is helpful, but needs to be supplemented by the eye test. I pointed out many times on this site that Chartouny was a good guy but very slow/not quick. That was based on the eye test. Eye Test definition is seeing someone live. So I never had the high hopes some did. In fact, I felt JC out performed my expectations.

On the other hand  the Value Add had grossly underestimated Quincy McKnight  going into last season. Based on eye test I felt he was much better than projected.  As the stats did not take into account the circumstances he was in at Sacred Heart.

McKnight indeed was a critical element of Seton Hall success and certainly outperformed Chartouny. In fact I think the system is still not necessarily accurate when it comes to McKnight. He was the starting point guard on an NCAA tournament team, I get that his free throws and 3 point  were not top notch but reality was he was always making key plays down the stretch of the big wins that Seton Hall had.

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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #381 on: April 29, 2019, 10:14:18 PM »
McKnight was exactly where he was supposed to be, 4th or 5th best player on a middle of the pack Big East team.

Chartouny underperformed greatly. Honestly, not getting Chartouny and Froling plugged in successfully has been two of my biggest red flags of the Wojo era.
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JakeBarnes

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #382 on: April 29, 2019, 10:44:20 PM »
McKnight was exactly where he was supposed to be, 4th or 5th best player on a middle of the pack Big East team.

Chartouny underperformed greatly. Honestly, not getting Chartouny and Froling plugged in successfully has been two of my biggest red flags of the Wojo era.

Chartouny I can understand. Froling never really did much before he came over and had a lot of questions about his effort following him here.
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Herman Cain

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #383 on: April 29, 2019, 10:59:20 PM »
McKnight was exactly where he was supposed to be, 4th or 5th best player on a middle of the pack Big East team.

Chartouny underperformed greatly. Honestly, not getting Chartouny and Froling plugged in successfully has been two of my biggest red flags of the Wojo era.
Funny as it may sound coming from an anti Wojo person like myself, I don't actually hold Chartouny and Froling against him. I think those two players are text book cases of the risks inherent in grad transfers and mid season transfers.

Every year you publish the grad transfer analysis. I read your work carefully and have noted there simply are not that many great grad transfers out there . There are a handful of super great guys but there tends to be a lot of guys who can't make the move to the next level of play. We had three great guard examples in the Big East this year, Chartouny, Joe Cremo and Connor Cashaw.

When a guy goes to the extreme of a mid season transfer, many times there are player coach and coach-ability problems. That is always a risk. Sometimes it works out beautifully but other times the situation persists at the new school.

Nonetheless, a school like MU needs to keep prospecting for grad transfers and mid season guys in hopes of finding a gem.
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auburnmarquette

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #384 on: April 29, 2019, 11:56:21 PM »
The value add analysis is helpful, but needs to be supplemented by the eye test. I pointed out many times on this site that Chartouny was a good guy but very slow/not quick. That was based on the eye test. Eye Test definition is seeing someone live. So I never had the high hopes some did. In fact, I felt JC out performed my expectations.

On the other hand  the Value Add had grossly underestimated Quincy McKnight  going into last season. Based on eye test I felt he was much better than projected.  As the stats did not take into account the circumstances he was in at Sacred Heart.

McKnight indeed was a critical element of Seton Hall success and certainly outperformed Chartouny. In fact I think the system is still not necessarily accurate when it comes to McKnight. He was the starting point guard on an NCAA tournament team, I get that his free throws and 3 point  were not top notch but reality was he was always making key plays down the stretch of the big wins that Seton Hall had.

Agree with you more than you know!

I just preach that Value Add sums everything into one stat that is adjusted by competition to give a STARTING point.

When I talked to guys with NBA teams they liked that they could spot a player worth scouting, but not that they'd base a pick on Value Add.

I was thinking the same thing when I talked to Cremo in the Nova locker room at the Big East tournament. He would have been fine, but in the end Markus was going to try to rest for a minute and then get run back into the game to run the point.

Definitely appreciate your eye test. JC had some nice moments and I never hold it against the player - if they were the best who chose to come to MU then they were better than the next option.

I do wish we still looked at JCs though.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 11:58:37 PM by auburnmarquette »
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MuMark

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #385 on: May 01, 2019, 01:39:44 PM »
McKnight was exactly where he was supposed to be, 4th or 5th best player on a middle of the pack Big East team.

Chartouny underperformed greatly. Honestly, not getting Chartouny and Froling plugged in successfully has been two of my biggest red flags of the Wojo era.

Funny I blame the player not the coach......

Everybody assumed that Chartouny was the answer......coaches.....posters on this board.......and we were all wrong......he had chances and for whatever reason....did not perform......call it a recruiting mistake if you want but if Wojo was wrong so was everybody else here.......so the same people who said we had to have JC because he was just what we need.......instead of now saying...."we all had it wrong" choose to blame the coach .....

Recruiting mistakes are made by everybody......is Jay Wright a lesser coach because he " couldn't plug in Quinerly more effectively?

JC's problem here was he turned it over at rates that were astronomical compared to his years at Fordham........when a grad transfer starts kicking it away in every way imaginable when he never did it before im not sure that blame falls on the coach.

He can't dribble or pass for him.......just like he can't shoot free throws for Theo.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 01:44:58 PM by MuMark »

willie warrior

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #386 on: May 01, 2019, 01:47:46 PM »
Chartouny I can understand. Froling never really did much before he came over and had a lot of questions about his effort following him here.
But wait...we heard it here a number of times that Froling was a game changer.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #387 on: May 01, 2019, 02:19:55 PM »
Funny I blame the player not the coach......

Everybody assumed that Chartouny was the answer......coaches.....posters on this board.......and we were all wrong......he had chances and for whatever reason....did not perform......call it a recruiting mistake if you want but if Wojo was wrong so was everybody else here.......so the same people who said we had to have JC because he was just what we need.......instead of now saying...."we all had it wrong" choose to blame the coach .....

Recruiting mistakes are made by everybody......is Jay Wright a lesser coach because he " couldn't plug in Quinerly more effectively?

JC's problem here was he turned it over at rates that were astronomical compared to his years at Fordham........when a grad transfer starts kicking it away in every way imaginable when he never did it before im not sure that blame falls on the coach.

He can't dribble or pass for him.......just like he can't shoot free throws for Theo.

Personally, when a player doesn't improve or gets worse from one year to the next (without injury) I question how that player is being coached.
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MuMark

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #388 on: May 01, 2019, 02:38:17 PM »
And when I see a player turn it over 34% of the time instead of 16% by falling down......not being able to catch the ball or dribble it down the court without turning it over ..... forcing the coach to bench him I blame the player.

When you recruit a grad transfer he should be able to dribble, catch it and not fall down with the ball.

He's 24 years old.......not 12. 


MuMark

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #389 on: May 01, 2019, 03:33:12 PM »
Some nice comments from Joe about his experience at Marquette

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Wp1NdKjcVW0


JamilJaeJamailJrJuan

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #390 on: May 02, 2019, 02:05:26 PM »
Some nice comments from Joe about his experience at Marquette

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Wp1NdKjcVW0

Definitely worth listening to.
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BM1090

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #391 on: May 02, 2019, 04:10:17 PM »
Isaiah Moss from Iowa will be an immediately eligible grad transfer. Not very efficient overall but a good three point shooter. Hope we take a long look at him.

moomoo

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #392 on: May 02, 2019, 05:02:48 PM »
Isaiah Moss from Iowa will be an immediately eligible grad transfer. Not very efficient overall but a good three point shooter. Hope we take a long look at him.

Completely agree.

He also has an edge to him, but sometimes disappears.

Would be a great punch off the bench as a 6th man.

And he played with Ed Morrow at Simeon.
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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #393 on: May 02, 2019, 05:15:54 PM »
Isaiah Moss from Iowa will be an immediately eligible grad transfer. Not very efficient overall but a good three point shooter. Hope we take a long look at him.

Getting him and Johnson would be interesting. In my opinion the thing we are in biggest need of for next season is a forward who can rebound and stretch the floor. It would be funny if instead they got a center who was an elite rebounder and a wing who was an elite floor stretcher.
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willie warrior

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #394 on: May 02, 2019, 06:17:50 PM »
What help is on the way?  Considering the loss of the Hausers we need tons of help. Maybe Patton and his tanks are coming.
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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #395 on: May 02, 2019, 06:33:32 PM »
What help is on the way?  Considering the loss of the Hausers we need tons of help. Maybe Patton and his tanks are coming.


Tanks can shoot from distance but are terrible at rebounding.  More of an offensive weapon than a defensive one.
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WarriorPride68

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #396 on: May 02, 2019, 08:32:40 PM »
Isaiah Moss from Iowa will be an immediately eligible grad transfer. Not very efficient overall but a good three point shooter. Hope we take a long look at him.

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marquette20

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #397 on: May 03, 2019, 03:34:58 AM »
Isaiah Moss from Iowa will be an immediately eligible grad transfer. Not very efficient overall but a good three point shooter. Hope we take a long look at him.

Played against him in high school when he was a sophomore before he transferred to Simeon. Was super athletic and commanded the floor. The knock on him was that he wasn’t a great shooter so to lay off him. Seems like that is still true. Feel like he would be a very similar player to Sacar for us.

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #398 on: May 03, 2019, 07:00:14 AM »
The knock on him was that he wasn’t a great shooter so to lay off him. Seems like that is still true.

If he comes to Marquette, I hope everyone continues to lay off the not great shooter that hit 42.1% beyond the arc last year.
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MUBurrow

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Re: Help on the way for 19/20?
« Reply #399 on: May 03, 2019, 08:52:47 AM »
Getting him and Johnson would be interesting. In my opinion the thing we are in biggest need of for next season is a forward who can rebound and stretch the floor. It would be funny if instead they got a center who was an elite rebounder and a wing who was an elite floor stretcher.

I was thinking this with Jayce Johnson as well. I'm not very imaginative, but I have trouble picturing what next year's team and playing style looks like if he's getting the minutes he's probably demanding, given the transfer options available to him. I don't think he'd be coming to be part of a Ed-Theo-Jayce three headed monster.