Can we blame the refs now?

[Its DJOver]

Here's what I don't get about the whole airborne player/vulnerable position thing.  If you're going to follow that rule to the letter of the law, which is what you should be doing when you review a play, wouldn't just about every shooting foul technically fall under that category?  It's literally called a "jump shot".  When you're shooting, you're always airborne and vulnerable, that's why a lot of the time a player falls down when a foul is called.  It just seems like the rule is worded so vaguely that most common fouls could be seen as F2 if you look hard enough.

TAMU quoted the entire rule earlier but "The potential for injury resulting from the contact (e.g., a blow to the head or a foul committed while the player was in a vulnerable position)"  So would the (should have been) block where Markus hurt his wrist have been a F2?  Of course not, but going strictly by the letter of the law it could have been.  Needs to be addressed.

[vogue65]

You keep forgetting that our two best defenders were in the locker room....why is this ignored?  You further forget to mention while they were on the floor, Mr. Powell was doing NOTHING.  Furthermore, Anim had 10 points and was looking damn good offensively.

Cheeks says it all in so few words, thanks.  Without Anim AND Markus Marquette is a totally different team.  With Powell thuggery S.H. is Seton Hall.  Let's see how their bad a$$ act works in the NCAA tournament.  It seems to be what our friends in NYC like to see.

[CTWarrior]

If you can stomach it you should watch the televised version. Your perception on everything you posted will be different

I watched the whole game again just now.  I do not understand any argument that Anim did not deserve that second technical.  He basically forced the ref's hand.  He has got to be smarter than that.  I agree the guy he was jawing with should also have gotten one.  To me, besides the bad officiating both ways where it is impossible to tell which of the two teams came out ahead (Markus got a couple of gift calls during our comeback), it boils down to Powell not getting a flagrant 2 and Theo getting a flagrant 2.   I agree that Powell's was worse, and I think an F1 was probably in order for Theo.  But we are ignoring that what Theo did was pointless and stupid, and maybe a little dirty.  He was not making a play on the ball and just gave a little push for no reason other than to give a little push.

The reffing was a big story, but I am not convinced it was the biggest reason we lost.  We didn't defensive rebound down the stretch yet again (they basically shot until they scored or we fouled them for a stretch), we didn't execute on offense during that stretch when they passed us and went up 7, and we missed some foul shots and Markus had a terrible shooting night. 

We can still get a win or two in the tournament, but this has been a brutal 3 weeks.

[JakeBarnes]

I watched the whole game again just now.  I do not understand any argument that Anim did not deserve that second technical.  He basically forced the ref's hand.  He has got to be smarter than that.  I agree the guy he was jawing with should also have gotten one.  To me, besides the bad officiating both ways where it is impossible to tell which of the two teams came out ahead (Markus got a couple of gift calls during our comeback), it boils down to Powell not getting a flagrant 2 and Theo getting a flagrant 2.   I agree that Powell's was worse, and I think an F1 was probably in order for Theo.  But we are ignoring that what Theo did was pointless and stupid, and maybe a little dirty.  He was not making a play on the ball and just gave a little push for no reason other than to give a little push.

The reffing was a big story, but I am not convinced it was the biggest reason we lost.  We didn't defensive rebound down the stretch yet again (they basically shot until they scored or we fouled them for a stretch), we didn't execute on offense during that stretch when they passed us and went up 7, and we missed some foul shots and Markus had a terrible shooting night. 

We can still get a win or two in the tournament, but this has been a brutal 3 weeks.

If only we had our best man defender and best interior defender to mitigate the "no rebounding" and letting them get shots.

[Jockey]

We thought the refs were bad in our game? Check out Florida - Auburn. Auburn was intentionally fouling the Florida player. Refs refused to call it. Could have sent the game to overtime.

https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/florida-football/watch-referees-decide-not-to-call-foul-as-florida-runs-out-of-time-vs-auburn/

[GB Warrior]

With respect to Anim, what I really didn't understand was the first technical.

[AlienWarrior]

Time to move on, better this happened in a BET game than an NCAA tourny game. Hopefully Howard heals up as does the team and we get decent draws for next weekend.

[willie warrior]

I watched the whole game again just now.  I do not understand any argument that Anim did not deserve that second technical.  He basically forced the ref's hand.  He has got to be smarter than that.  I agree the guy he was jawing with should also have gotten one.  To me, besides the bad officiating both ways where it is impossible to tell which of the two teams came out ahead (Markus got a couple of gift calls during our comeback), it boils down to Powell not getting a flagrant 2 and Theo getting a flagrant 2.   I agree that Powell's was worse, and I think an F1 was probably in order for Theo.  But we are ignoring that what Theo did was pointless and stupid, and maybe a little dirty.  He was not making a play on the ball and just gave a little push for no reason other than to give a little push.

The reffing was a big story, but I am not convinced it was the biggest reason we lost.  We didn't defensive rebound down the stretch yet again (they basically shot until they scored or we fouled them for a stretch), we didn't execute on offense during that stretch when they passed us and went up 7, and we missed some foul shots and Markus had a terrible shooting night. 

We can still get a win or two in the tournament, but this has been a brutal 3 weeks.

A win or 2 in the tournament? What do you base that on? Maybe playing a 16 seed.

[BM1090]

A win or 2 in the tournament? What do you base that on? Maybe playing a 16 seed.

I will bet you blindly we win our first round game without knowing opponent.

[Cheeks]

A win or 2 in the tournament? What do you base that on? Maybe playing a 16 seed.

Basing it on your lack of knowledge as a human being and basketball "fan", and the fact you saying it cannot be done makes it all the more likely it will.

[willie warrior]

Basing it on your lack of knowledge as a human being and basketball "fan", and the fact you saying it cannot be done makes it all the more likely it will.

You must be clairovoyant snowflake, as you do not know me at all as a human being. Interesting that you have such animosity for somebody that you do not know, simply because opinions expressed do not agree with yours. Yes, I am a fan, so stay in your lane snowflake. Let us all know when you develop some knowledge. And BTW, you saying "it" can be done does not make anything likely. But I guess you already know that, with you limitless knowledge, snowflake.

[Cheeks]

You must be clairovoyant snowflake, as you do not know me at all as a human being. Interesting that you have such animosity for somebody that you do not know, simply because opinions expressed do not agree with yours. Yes, I am a fan, so stay in your lane snowflake. Let us all know when you develop some knowledge. And BTW, you saying "it" can be done does not make anything likely. But I guess you already know that, with you limitless knowledge, snowflake.

I know you only come here to complain about the team and players.  It's what you do.  Furthermore, I know when we win, you are nowhere to be found.  I have this notion in my head that when we win, which is the vast majority of the time, you are just stewing in a pile of steamy sweat super pissed off at the world that MU won DESPITE your wishes and despite how you tell us how bad we are, or how bad our coach is.  Every time we win, it puts an extra smile on my face knowing how pissed off you are.  Makes my day. 

[WhiteTrash]

I watched the whole game again just now.  I do not understand any argument that Anim did not deserve that second technical.  He basically forced the ref's hand.  He has got to be smarter than that.  I agree the guy he was jawing with should also have gotten one.  To me, besides the bad officiating both ways where it is impossible to tell which of the two teams came out ahead (Markus got a couple of gift calls during our comeback), it boils down to Powell not getting a flagrant 2 and Theo getting a flagrant 2.   I agree that Powell's was worse, and I think an F1 was probably in order for Theo.  But we are ignoring that what Theo did was pointless and stupid, and maybe a little dirty.  He was not making a play on the ball and just gave a little push for no reason other than to give a little push.

The reffing was a big story, but I am not convinced it was the biggest reason we lost.  We didn't defensive rebound down the stretch yet again (they basically shot until they scored or we fouled them for a stretch), we didn't execute on offense during that stretch when they passed us and went up 7, and we missed some foul shots and Markus had a terrible shooting night. 

We can still get a win or two in the tournament, but this has been a brutal 3 weeks.

Not sure what game you watched, but outside SHU fans its is 100% agreed MU was at best victim of terrible officiating and at worst victim of a fix. Don't take my word for it, look on the internet for other insight.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm clearly biased, but I believe the officiating 100% favored Hall until about the last 120 seconds when it suddenly switched drastically to benefiting Marquette. My exhibits:

1. The clear hack on Sacar's dunk attempt that wasn't called
2. The hard foul on Markus on the breakaway layup that wasn't called
3. The flagrant 1 instead of 2 on Powell's intentional elbow
4. The treating Sacar clapping more harshly than Powell throwing an elbow
5. The goaltend on John that was a clean block (watched on slow mo a few times, he got the ball cleanly before it hit the backboard)
6. The phantom 3rd foul on John that was called with no time on the clock, that was upheld despite review
7. No technical for Nelson despite blindsiding Sacar with a shove
8. Calling a flagrant 2 on John
9. Not calling two fouls on Powell after the scuffle that would have fouled him out
10. No technical for McKnight when he elbowed Markus in the face (was given a personal foul)
11. Missed McKnight shoving Markus with two hands to get open on an inbounds play
12. Don't remember where but missed an obvious travel on a fast break (tried to jump stop but took two extra steps) that led to a Powell three

There were a lot bad calls that went our way, especially at the end, but early I think it was very favored towards Seton Hall. I don't think that was intentional, but just how it played out. Home court advantage is a thing.

[Markusquette]

I'm clearly biased, but I believe the officiating 100% favored Hall until about the last 120 seconds when it suddenly switched drastically to benefiting Marquette. My exhibits:

1. The clear hack on Sacar's dunk attempt that wasn't called
2. The hard foul on Markus on the breakaway layup that wasn't called
3. The flagrant 1 instead of 2 on Powell's intentional elbow
4. The treating Sacar clapping more harshly than Powell throwing an elbow
5. The goaltend on John that was a clean block (watched on slow mo a few times, he got the ball cleanly before it hit the backboard)
6. The phantom 3rd foul on John that was called with no time on the clock, that was upheld despite review
7. No technical for Nelson despite blindsiding Sacar with a shove
8. Calling a flagrant 2 on John
9. Not calling two fouls on Powell after the scuffle that would have fouled him out
10. No technical for McKnight when he elbowed Markus in the face (was given a personal foul)
11. Missed McKnight shoving Markus with two hands to get open on an inbounds play
12. Don't remember where but missed an obvious travel on a fast break (tried to jump stop but took two extra steps) that led to a Powell three

There were a lot bad calls that went our way, especially at the end, but early I think it was very favored towards Seton Hall. I don't think that was intentional, but just how it played out. Home court advantage is a thing.

You're absolutely right. The officiating was awful overall. The fact that we even came back to the point of having a potential game winner is a testament to that. They gave MU way a number of very favorable calls at the end, but throughout much of the game didn't work in their favor. The ejections were just a complete joke. If you want Anim + John gone, Powell has to be in the locker room too. They were too scared to sabotage SHU chances taking out their star player like that.

[Jockey]

I'm clearly biased, but I believe the officiating 100% favored Hall until about the last 120 seconds when it suddenly switched drastically to benefiting Marquette. My exhibits:

1. The clear hack on Sacar's dunk attempt that wasn't called
2. The hard foul on Markus on the breakaway layup that wasn't called
3. The flagrant 1 instead of 2 on Powell's intentional elbow
4. The treating Sacar clapping more harshly than Powell throwing an elbow
5. The goaltend on John that was a clean block (watched on slow mo a few times, he got the ball cleanly before it hit the backboard)
6. The phantom 3rd foul on John that was called with no time on the clock, that was upheld despite review
7. No technical for Nelson despite blindsiding Sacar with a shove
8. Calling a flagrant 2 on John
9. Not calling two fouls on Powell after the scuffle that would have fouled him out
10. No technical for McKnight when he elbowed Markus in the face (was given a personal foul)
11. Missed McKnight shoving Markus with two hands to get open on an inbounds play
12. Don't remember where but missed an obvious travel on a fast break (tried to jump stop but took two extra steps) that led to a Powell three

There were a lot bad calls that went our way, especially at the end, but early I think it was very favored towards Seton Hall. I don't think that was intentional, but just how it played out. Home court advantage is a thing.

I agree on all except the Theo call right before halftime. It shouldn't have been called, but he did hit the shooter's arm with 0.1 on the clock.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I agree on all except the Theo call right before halftime. It shouldn't have been called, but he did hit the shooter's arm with 0.1 on the clock.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the call needs to be made before the buzzer, not the foul itself.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Wow.  Excellent recap TAMU. If you fill in the last 120 seconds what you have are CYA refs knowing there will be a shytshow after the game to account for.  Hall got hosed in these last 110 seconds and then the Cain foul happened.  So erratic.

[GooooMarquette]

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the call needs to be made before the buzzer, not the foul itself.

Correct. It goes on the ref’s arm going up...which occurred after the clock hit 0.0.

[gsteinbrenner]

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the call needs to be made before the buzzer, not the foul itself.

I don’t care to look it up, but they seemed to be consistent with this kind of call in tonight’s championship game.  Right before the end of the game, when they whistled Booth for that horrible traveling call, they put the clock back to 0.4, which was when this so-called traveling would have happened, not when the ref put his arm up at like 0.1.

[CTWarrior]

If only we had our best man defender and best interior defender to mitigate the "no rebounding" and letting them get shots.

I don't think Anim being tossed is the refs fault.  I think it is Anim's fault.  you clap and gloat at another player you risk a T.  Seen it called many times this season.  You chase and shove a guy, even if he shoved you first, and you're likely to get a technical.    I agree Theo should not have been tossed, but he put himself in jeopardy with that stupid little pointless push.  It was absolutely on purpose and not for any basketball reason.  At any rate, Theo played 13 minutes and had 4 fouls.  I doubt we would have gotten more than 3 or 4 more minutes out him anyway, particularly because of the way he plays and the way the game was being officiated in the second half.

One thing I agree with you all on is that the reffing was atrocious and that Powell's foul was more deserving of a flagrant two than any other foul on the evening, as it was obviously not a basketball play and just a cheap shot he was hoping to get away with.  And that is a huge thing.  Other than that, I just thought the lousy reffing was fairly evenly distributed.

I also freely admit I am less likely to blame referees than the average fan.  I tend to focus solely on the my team and what it could have done better or differently when considering or watching a game.

[NickelDimer]

I'm clearly biased, but I believe the officiating 100% favored Hall until about the last 120 seconds when it suddenly switched drastically to benefiting Marquette. My exhibits:

1. The clear hack on Sacar's dunk attempt that wasn't called
2. The hard foul on Markus on the breakaway layup that wasn't called
3. The flagrant 1 instead of 2 on Powell's intentional elbow
4. The treating Sacar clapping more harshly than Powell throwing an elbow
5. The goaltend on John that was a clean block (watched on slow mo a few times, he got the ball cleanly before it hit the backboard)
6. The phantom 3rd foul on John that was called with no time on the clock, that was upheld despite review
7. No technical for Nelson despite blindsiding Sacar with a shove
8. Calling a flagrant 2 on John
9. Not calling two fouls on Powell after the scuffle that would have fouled him out
10. No technical for McKnight when he elbowed Markus in the face (was given a personal foul)
11. Missed McKnight shoving Markus with two hands to get open on an inbounds play
12. Don't remember where but missed an obvious travel on a fast break (tried to jump stop but took two extra steps) that led to a Powell three

There were a lot bad calls that went our way, especially at the end, but early I think it was very favored towards Seton Hall. I don't think that was intentional, but just how it played out. Home court advantage is a thing.

I hate the game even more after reading this. There’s no worse feeling than being cheated

[Lennys Tap]

I watched the whole game again just now.  I do not understand any argument that Anim did not deserve that second technical.  He basically forced the ref's hand.  He has got to be smarter than that.  I agree the guy he was jawing with should also have gotten one.  To me, besides the bad officiating both ways where it is impossible to tell which of the two teams came out ahead (Markus got a couple of gift calls during our comeback), it boils down to Powell not getting a flagrant 2 and Theo getting a flagrant 2.   I agree that Powell's was worse, and I think an F1 was probably in order for Theo.  But we are ignoring that what Theo did was pointless and stupid, and maybe a little dirty.  He was not making a play on the ball and just gave a little push for no reason other than to give a little push.

The reffing was a big story, but I am not convinced it was the biggest reason we lost.  We didn't defensive rebound down the stretch yet again (they basically shot until they scored or we fouled them for a stretch), we didn't execute on offense during that stretch when they passed us and went up 7, and we missed some foul shots and Markus had a terrible shooting night. 

We can still get a win or two in the tournament, but this has been a brutal 3 weeks.

Warrior - your analysis won't be popular here - but it is spot on accurate.

[mileskishnish72]

I was at the game, I did not see everything that happened during the fracas that caused the ejections and they didn't show replays, so I did not know what happened.  Knowing Theo, I figured he probably earned his ejection.  The mood in the building was that Marquette was getting every call, and even I thought we got a friendlier then SHU whistle, especially at the end when Markus was the beneficiary of a couple ticky-tack bumps and SHU kept getting techs to keep us in the game.

If the ejections were unjustified, that of course changes everything.

I have the same problem, CT. I do have to disagree that the "mood in the building" was that MU was getting every call. I couldn't see what the hell happened in the scuffle. The elbow to Sacar was right in front of me, and I could not believe he got a T for clapping.

Could somebody post a clip that shows the scuffle? I can't open the one from Warriors1.

[Shooter McGavin]

Warrior - your analysis won't be popular here - but it is spot on accurate.

Agreed just not smart by our guys.  We did not need to tempt the refs.

Also can we please stop playing air guitar after threes in the first half?  Maybe when we are up by 30 with two minutes to go in the game it would be better (I’m all about having some fun).   But it reminds me of celebrating at first down when your football team is losing by two touchdowns.