Markus Climbing The Ladder

[Its DJOver]

You and I disagree on the closeness and that's fine. Personally, I don't think Markus has caught Crowder yet and Crowder is behind Wade. Again, when you find someone who actually thinks Markus is better than Wade, let me know. Until then, I don't think there's any reasonable conversation to be had.

There are stats to support both of them, I think that makes the conversation pretty reasonable, which has been my argument all along.  They are both great college players, and one has not yet finished his collegiate career.  Since that data set is incomplete, a true comparison is difficult (among other reasons as well).

If a player only has bad performances in the postseason, they can still be a great player. But it's unlikely that they'll be the GOAT. Also just because I say Virginia was a great team last season doesn't mean I didn't knock them for woeful postseason performance.

This also contradicts what you said earlier.  You said that you were on the Tom Brady train for GOAT.  I don't follow football very closely, but a quick google search tells me that he had a pretty dreadful time in the postseason in 2009.  3 interceptions and a fumble, that should disqualify him from the GOAT discussion right?

Cheeks addressed this somewhat but Conference USA wasn't as bad as it is now. And it was certainly better than the conferences Daum and Clemons are currently playing in. Some really good teams at the top and some really really bad ones at the bottom. The level of competition argument doesn't really sway me. Wade was dominant against all levels of competition. You could have dropped him anywhere and he would have put up monster numbers and he showed that by turning in the most memorable individual performance in MU history against #1 Kentucky on one of the biggest stages. There's a reason why after college Wade was a top 5 pick. Now draft position doesn't mean he's the GOAT (because if it did Henry would be a lot higher on the MU pantheon than he actually is), but it is a testament to the talent and skill that he had.

Cheeks attempted to shift the goalposts and tried to explain why CUSA was so bad, and got caught and called out for it.  It also doesn't change the fact that CUSA was still objectively worse in 2003 than the BEast currently is.

We can disagree and that's fine, but I think it's more than fair to state that many people view Wade in higher stature than he actually was because he is a future NBA HOFer, because he played in a worse Conference (and was arguably the reason that we moved to a better conference), and because he achieved the postseason success that he did.  I know hypotheticals are a slippery slope, but I think 82 has a good point in that if we had lost that game to Holy Cross, Wade may not be seen as the undisputed GOAT.  Would one game have changed the raw skill and talent he possessed? No, but it would have altered his perception among the B+G tinted googles that we all wear.

[GooooMarquette]

This also supports my argument.  We're literally having the discussion right now, which means that Markus belongs in the discussion.  How many more 40+ point games would it take to catch Wade?  IDk, but if Markus sticks around and not only becomes the programs first 2000 point scorer, but its first 3000 point scorer (not entirely outside the realm of possibility) will you still be saying that Wade is the GOAT and no one can catch him?

FWIW, I never said "no one can catch him." Could Markus get into the discussion if he has an incredible March and leads us to a FF? Maybe.

Either way, Markus is a remarkable player, a great kid and a joy to watch on and off the court. GOAT or not, we are extremely lucky to be able to watch him, so I'm gonna enjoy the ride.

[Its DJOver]

FWIW, I never said "no one can catch him." Could Markus get into the discussion if he has an incredible March and leads us to a FF? Maybe.

Either way, Markus is a remarkable player, a great kid and a joy to watch on and off the court. GOAT or not, we are extremely lucky to be able to watch him, so I'm gonna enjoy the ride.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you did.  Agree with the rest of your post.

[Cheeks]

I'm not sure about that. CUSA in 2002 had 2 top 11 teams according to Kenpom. Cincy was 2. Marquette was 11. Memphis was 33 and Charlotte was 40. Nobody else was top 60 and 6 teams were below 100.

In 2003, CUSA had 4 top 60 teams and 7 below 100.

2002 CUSA might be better than 2019 Big East. But 2018 and 2017 Big East were far better than anything CUSA offered.

Interestingly, our 2002 team was ranked better than our 2003 team (11 vs. 15)

I took it directly from the site.  Here is 2003 numbers, if you scroll to bottom it breaks each conference team out  https://www.usatoday.com/sports/ncaab/sagarin/2003/conference/

   9  Louisville       
  10  Marquette         
  26  Memphis           
  47  Cincinnati     
  67  DePaul     
  71  UAB       
  76  Saint Louis     
  91  Charlotte       
 111  South Florida   
 112  Tulane             
 152  East Carolina       
 158  Southern Miss         
 178  TCU                   
 209  Houston

[RJax55]

FWIW, I never said "no one can catch him." Could Markus get into the discussion if he has an incredible March and leads us to a FF? Maybe.

Either way, Markus is a remarkable player, a great kid and a joy to watch on and off the court. GOAT or not, we are extremely lucky to be able to watch him, so I'm gonna enjoy the ride.

Exactly. The story is still being written. And, it very well could extend into next year too.

There will be plenty of time to debate his place in MU history. Assuming, that the DOOM doesn't get us first.

[BM1090]

I took it directly from the site.  Here is 2003 numbers, if you scroll to bottom it breaks each conference team out  https://www.usatoday.com/sports/ncaab/sagarin/2003/conference/

   9  Louisville       
  10  Marquette         
  26  Memphis           
  47  Cincinnati     
  67  DePaul     
  71  UAB       
  76  Saint Louis     
  91  Charlotte       
 111  South Florida   
 112  Tulane             
 152  East Carolina       
 158  Southern Miss         
 178  TCU                   
 209  Houston

No doubt CUSA 2003 was stronger than the 2018 BE at the top.  I was just providing another set of data.

[Cheeks]

Cheeks attempted to shift the goalposts and tried to explain why CUSA was so bad, and got caught and called out for it.  It also doesn't change the fact that CUSA was still objectively worse in 2003 than the BEast currently is.

We can disagree and that's fine, but I think it's more than fair to state that many people view Wade in higher stature than he actually was because he is a future NBA HOFer, because he played in a worse Conference (and was arguably the reason that we moved to a better conference), and because he achieved the postseason success that he did.  I know hypotheticals are a slippery slope, but I think 82 has a good point in that if we had lost that game to Holy Cross, Wade may not be seen as the undisputed GOAT.  Would one game have changed the raw skill and talent he possessed? No, but it would have altered his perception among the B+G tinted googles that we all wear.

Uhm, no.  You used full rankings of every team.  What I said was accurate, CUSA at the top was better than Big East is at the top now, it was also worse than the Big East is now.  That isn't shifting anything, Wade had some great performances against most teams, including some teams better than what Markus is doing if you are to compare within a season....which is really difficult to do.

My response was due to this statement of yours.  3 of 4 40+ point games for Markus came against high majors, and the 4th came against a top 25 mid major.  That's a lot more impressive than dominating CUSA the way Wade did

In looking at what Wade did back then, I don't think you are correct necessarily because you implied CUSA wasn't as good, yet pointed out what Howard had done specifically against high majors and a top mid major.  Wade also did some excellent stuff against even better high majors, in my opinion, including Pitt, Nova, Wake Forest, Louisville, Wisconsin, etc.  Always hard to compare this stuff, but that isn't moving goalposts....I'm trying to point out that Wade accomplished his stuff against every bit as good of competition on the high side as MH has, even if overall CUSA wasn't as good...at the top it was better than the current Big East this year.

[Stretchdeltsig]

How much did Lazar average his fresh year and who the hell is George Thompson? I'm 22 have mercy

George Thompson was the greatest warrior ever.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

George Thompson was the greatest warrior ever.

Past tense?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This also contradicts what you said earlier.  You said that you were on the Tom Brady train for GOAT.  I don't follow football very closely, but a quick google search tells me that he had a pretty dreadful time in the postseason in 2009.  3 interceptions and a fumble, that should disqualify him from the GOAT discussion right?

We're going in circles so I'm just going to address this point because I think you misread my earlier post. I said if a player ONLY has bad postseason performances it is unlikely that they can be the GOAT. I never said that if a player has a single bad postseason performance that they can't be the GOAT. Brady has 5 rings and 4 super bowl MVPs to make up for that poor 2009 performance.

We have different definitions of "in the conversation" but seem to think roughly the same thing. Your definition means that he's one of the top 10-15 MU players ever, which I agree Markus is. My definition means that there are actually people who think Markus are better than Wade, which you seem to agree isn't the case. So we are just arguing over definitions and how close we think Markus is.

[brewcity77]

Fair or not, tourney results will determine a lot about how Howard is remembered. If we go to a Final Four this year & cut down the nets in April 2020 while Howard goes over 1,000 in a season & 3,000 for his career, he will go down as the greatest Marquette player ever for, at the minimum, anyone under the age of 30.

There will be segments of older fans that point to what Wade did in two years, and even older fans that point to Lee, Chones, & Thompson. This also all hinges on a lot of postseason success & luck. But just the idea that Howard could rewrite the history books & memory banks for generations of Marquette fans makes this a pretty exciting space to be in. if'jk

[Its DJOver]

We're going in circles

Agree with this.  We obviously value different criteria when evaluating this subjective topic.  It was a fun, civil discussion that distracted me from a boring day at work  .  Thanks for that.  Lets find a new topic tomorrow.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Agree with this.  We obviously value different criteria when evaluating this subjective topic.  It was a fun, civil discussion that distracted me from a boring day at work  .  Thanks for that.  Lets find a new topic tomorrow.

LIkewise, except I probably should have gotten more done at work then I did!

[Cheeks]

No doubt CUSA 2003 was stronger than the 2018 BE at the top.  I was just providing another set of data.

Ahh, sorry I misunderstood.

[Cheeks]

Wade played for 2 years. The first ended with a horrible first-round NCAA loss to Tulsa. The second came pretty darn close to ending with what would have been an even more horrible first-round NCAA loss to Holy Cross -- in a game that Wade, to put it generously, was not very good. What would his GOAT-ness level be if we had lost that game, or even the Mizzou game that Diener and Novak keyed?

Tulsa was 30 in the power ratings.  Tulsa no way should have been a 12 seed, that was a ridiculous seed for them.  They should have been a 7 to 10.  That was the committee trying hard to get 12's to beat 5's.  Three of the four 12 seeds won that year.   We lost 71-69.   

 

[MU82]

Tulsa was 30 in the power ratings.  Tulsa no way should have been a 12 seed, that was a ridiculous seed for them.  They should have been a 7 to 10.  That was the committee trying hard to get 12's to beat 5's.  Three of the four 12 seeds won that year.   We lost 71-69.

OK, you convinced me. It was a wonderful loss.

[1SE]

LIkewise, except I probably should have gotten more done at work then I did!

I don't think we're using different criteria, just asking different questions.

TAMU's question is:

1) Who is the best basketball player who ever happened to be at Marquette? D-wade clearly outshines Markus here.


The alternative question is:

2) Who is the player that had the best career at Marquette? Here I think one can make the argument that Markus has already outshone Wade here, and certainly will if we make a run this year or he comes back next year.

I'd say MU GOAT is the answer to the second question, but reasonable people can disagree!

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

I don't think we're using different criteria, just asking different questions.

TAMU's question is:

1) Who is the best basketball player who ever happened to be at Marquette? D-wade clearly outshines Markus here.


The alternative question is:

2) Who is the player that had the best career at Marquette? Here I think one can make the argument that Markus has already outshone Wade here, and certainly will if we make a run this year or he comes back next year.

I'd say MU GOAT is the answer to the second question, but reasonable people can disagree!

I see the same two questions.   But to me, question number one answers GOAT.

[NHMUFAN]

We're going in circles so I'm just going to address this point because I think you misread my earlier post. I said if a player ONLY has bad postseason performances it is unlikely that they can be the GOAT. I never said that if a player has a single bad postseason performance that they can't be the GOAT. Brady has 5 rings and 4 super bowl MVPs to make up for that poor 2009 performance.

We have different definitions of "in the conversation" but seem to think roughly the same thing. Your definition means that he's one of the top 10-15 MU players ever, which I agree Markus is. My definition means that there are actually people who think Markus are better than Wade, which you seem to agree isn't the case. So we are just arguing over definitions and how close we think Markus is.

Brady has 6 Super Bowl Rings

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I don't think we're using different criteria, just asking different questions.

TAMU's question is:

1) Who is the best basketball player who ever happened to be at Marquette? D-wade clearly outshines Markus here.


The alternative question is:

2) Who is the player that had the best career at Marquette? Here I think one can make the argument that Markus has already outshone Wade here, and certainly will if we make a run this year or he comes back next year.

I'd say MU GOAT is the answer to the second question, but reasonable people can disagree!

Honestly, no. That's not my question. My question is a combination of the two. And honestly, I think DWade is beating Markus by a ton in #1 and comfortably in #2.

In Wade's first year he led a team to a 5 seed in the NCAA tournament where they lost in the first round.

In Markus' first year he was part of a team (at best we could say he was a co-leader with Sam, Luke, and JJJ) that got a 10 seed in the NCAA tournament and lost in the first round.

In his second year, Wade led a team to a 3 seed in the NCAA tournament where he turned in one of the most impressive individual postseason runs in MU history and practically carried the team to a Final Four.

In Markus' second year he was part of a team (again, many didn't even think he was our best player last season, some said it was Sam some said it was Rowdy) that earned a 2 seed in the NIT and won two games.

So far, Wade's career accomplishments far outrank what Markus has done IMHO. Individual accomplishments don't mean much to me, I care more about what your individual accomplishments did for the team. Now Markus is definitely leading the team this season and we look poised to match the 3-seed that Wade's team earned in his second year. If Markus also goes beserk in the tournament and leads us to a Final Four or even an Elite Eight then I think you start have more of an argument.

[Cheeks]

OK, you convinced me. It was a wonderful loss.

No NCAA losses are wonderful, but that was a piss poor seeding job by the committee. 

[Galway Eagle]

Honestly, no. That's not my question. My question is a combination of the two. And honestly, I think DWade is beating Markus by a ton in #1 and comfortably in #2.

In Wade's first year he led a team to a 5 seed in the NCAA tournament where they lost in the first round.

In Markus' first year he was part of a team (at best we could say he was a co-leader with Sam, Luke, and JJJ) that got a 10 seed in the NCAA tournament and lost in the first round.

In his second year, Wade led a team to a 3 seed in the NCAA tournament where he turned in one of the most impressive individual postseason runs in MU history and practically carried the team to a Final Four.

In Markus' second year he was part of a team (again, many didn't even think he was our best player last season, some said it was Sam some said it was Rowdy) that earned a 2 seed in the NIT and won two games.

So far, Wade's career accomplishments far outrank what Markus has done IMHO. Individual accomplishments don't mean much to me, I care more about what your individual accomplishments did for the team. Now Markus is definitely leading the team this season and we look poised to match the 3-seed that Wade's team earned in his second year. If Markus also goes beserk in the tournament and leads us to a Final Four or even an Elite Eight then I think you start have more of an argument.

Let's not act as though those are all things equal 1st and 2nd Years. wade played four years in HS and then had a year of practice and weight training while Markus played three in HS and was thrown into the fire. I feel as though last year Markus and this year Markus would be better against wade.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Let's not act as though those are all things equal 1st and 2nd Years. wade played four years in HS and then had a year of practice and weight training while Markus played three in HS and was thrown into the fire. I feel as though last year Markus and this year Markus would be better against wade.

I'm aware. Honestly, I don't think it matters in the GOAT discussion. I won't hold it against Markus that he will get 2 extra seasons than Wade to put up numbers and win games. It shouldn't be held against Wade that he was older than Markus in his first season.

[Carl Spackler]

In his second year, Wade led a team to a 3 seed in the NCAA tournament where he turned in one of the most impressive individual postseason runs in MU history and practically carried the team to a Final Four.

i love wade, and was at 4 of 5 games during the 2003 run - this is false. 

Diener carried us against Holy Cross, and without Novak we likely go down in OT to Missouri in round 2.  Wade carried us through Minnesota - with a lot of help from the rest.  Against UK, Wade gets a lot of credit for the 29/11/11, but Robert Jackson had 24/15 - with great D on Estill and Novak was 5/8 from 3.  Let's not pretend Wade was a 1 man show.  Again, i think his spectacular NBA career has revised a lot of memories of the great 03 TEAM (lead by a future all time great) into Wade and a band of misfits.

[Its DJOver]

I'm going to apologize ahead of time for using a Guru saying.

Honestly, while the numbers are fun to look at, when discussing GOAT, I would use the patented GURU eye test more than stats, age, or tourney success.  For example, the two best collegiate players that I have seen over the last 25 years or so each only played one year.  One of them won the National Championship, while the other only made the round of 32.  One averaged over 25 ppg, while the other averaged under 15.  However, both won Naismith POY, and it was clear that both were clearly a class above their competition.  Each of them developed into NBA superstars, but even if they hadn't, I still would have thought that they were the two best/most dominant players in a long time.  The players in question?  Durant and Davis.  Durant gets the nod despite not making it to the second weekend of the tourney, and Davis gets it despite averaging less than 15 ppg.  In my eyes, both were just in another class compared to their peers.