Markus Climbing The Ladder

[TSmith34, Inc.]

no it wasn't.

Oh, well, Ok then, if you say so.

[MU82]

I'm gonna wait until we finish this season and we'll see.

What if we win the BEast regular-season title, Markus averages 25+ in leading us to the BET title and then Markus averages 25-30 in leading us to the Final Four? Wouldn't that change his ranking compared at least to, say, Jimmy and Jae?

I know it's hard to not look at NBA accomplishments, but if Markus did all that, wouldn't he at least be approaching DWade?

I mean, Laettner is regarded as one of the best college players ever, but I don't think anybody would put him on a list of top several hundred basketball players ever.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You do realize that this is openly admitting a goalpost shift right? 

Yes, you shifted a goalpost. First it was "he's in the conversation." Then you said "he's in the conversation without being laughed at." Those are two different standards so I adjusted my answer.

This also supports my argument.  We're literally having the discussion right now, which means that Markus belongs in the discussion.

As I said before, if your definition of "in the conversation" is that he is one of the top 10-15 MU players of all time then yes, Markus is in the conversation. My definition of "in the conversation" means that there are at least a few reasonable people would pick Markus over Wade as the GOAT. I don't think there is anyone who would pick Markus over Wade. ARod vs. Brady, you've got people on both sides. Jordan v Lebron, you've got people on both sides. Markus v DWade? It's one sided.

How many more 40+ point games would it take to catch Wade?  IDk, but if Markus sticks around and not only becomes the programs first 2000 point scorer, but its first 3000 point scorer (not entirely outside the realm of possibility) will you still be saying that Wade is the GOAT and no one can catch him?

I never said no one can catch Wade. I'm saying Howard hasn't caught Wade as of right now. I also don't think he's particularly close. Honestly, putting up more 40 point games isn't going to do much to change my mind. He's already well in the conversation for and possibly is the MU GSOAT (greatest scorer of all time). What would change my mind is improvement in other parts of his game while maintain his absurd scoring numbers. More importantly, what would change my mind is if those 40 point games started happening in Sweet 16, Elite 8, and Final Four games.

[1SE]

I don't know about the 70s players because I wasn't alive but all D-wade has on Markus right now at the COLLEGE level is NCAA success. If we make a run this year (or next if he stays) Markus will have surpassed D-wade's time at MU without a doubt.

Wade will always be the better NBA player - but that's not what MU GOAT is about.

[1SE]

Yes, you shifted a goalpost. First it was "he's in the conversation." Then you said "he's in the conversation without being laughed at." Those are two different standards so I adjusted my answer.

As I said before, if your definition of "in the conversation" is that he is one of the top 10-15 MU players of all time then yes, Markus is in the conversation. My definition of "in the conversation" means that there are at least a few reasonable people would pick Markus over Wade as the GOAT. I don't think there is anyone who would pick Markus over Wade. ARod vs. Brady, you've got people on both sides. Jordan v Lebron, you've got people on both sides. Markus v DWade? It's one sided.

I never said no one can catch Wade. I'm saying Howard hasn't caught Wade as of right now. I also don't think he's particularly close. Honestly, putting up more 40 point games isn't going to do much to change my mind. He's already well in the conversation for and possibly is the MU GSOAT (greatest scorer of all time). What would change my mind is improvement in other parts of his game while maintain his absurd scoring numbers. More importantly, what would change my mind is if those 40 point games started happening in Sweet 16, Elite 8, and Final Four games.

I posted this the last time we had this convo but I can't remember if it was this thread or another thread. Look at D-wade's 2002-2003 numbers. Look at Markus' this year - at best for D-wade it's a wash - but actually Markus is better.

And that was D-wade's best season by far. Markus already has had two solid years. If he stays next year he'll do it all over again. I love D-wade and all he's done for the program but to somehow maintain he's way ahead of Markus in terms of collegiate accomplishments is just ridiculous.

[Cheeks]

I don't know about the 70s players because I wasn't alive but all D-wade has on Markus right now at the COLLEGE level is NCAA success. If we make a run this year (or next if he stays) Markus will have surpassed D-wade's time at MU without a doubt.

Wade will always be the better NBA player - but that's not what MU GOAT is about.

Recency bias. 

I would have at LEAST 4 if not 5 guys ahead of him on the all time MU list.  Need to look at the whole package, offense, defense, level of competition, etc, IMO.  MH is outstanding, truly outstanding, but to use a baseball term he isn't a 5 tool guy IMO.  We've had guys come through MU there didn't score at the level of MH (partly because of the offensive philosophy, teammates, coaching style), but had better all around games.

[1SE]

I posted this the last time we had this convo but I can't remember if it was this thread or another thread. Look at D-wade's 2002-2003 numbers. Look at Markus' this year - at best for D-wade it's a wash - but actually Markus is better.

And that was D-wade's best season by far. Markus already has had two solid years. If he stays next year he'll do it all over again. I love D-wade and all he's done for the program but to somehow maintain he's way ahead of Markus in terms of collegiate accomplishments is just ridiculous.

And - arguably - Wade had as much, if not more, talent around him on that team.

[BM1090]

Recency bias. 

I would have at LEAST 4 if not 5 guys ahead of him on the all time MU list.  Need to look at the whole package, offense, defense, level of competition, etc, IMO.  MH is outstanding, truly outstanding, but to use a baseball term he isn't a 5 tool guy IMO.  We've had guys come through MU there didn't score at the level of MH (partly because of the offensive philosophy, teammates, coaching style), but had better all around games.

There are 100 players with better all-around games than Steph Curry in the NBA, but Steph is still a top 3 player in the league.

Sometimes impact or mastery of one essential skill > tools.

That said, Markus isn't D Wade. The stats are better but Wade's impact and team achievements speak for themselves.

[1SE]

Recency bias. 

I would have at LEAST 4 if not 5 guys ahead of him on the all time MU list.  Need to look at the whole package, offense, defense, level of competition, etc, IMO.  MH is outstanding, truly outstanding, but to use a baseball term he isn't a 5 tool guy IMO.  We've had guys come through MU there didn't score at the level of MH (partly because of the offensive philosophy, teammates, coaching style), but had better all around games.

I've been as hard as anyone on Markus for his proclivity for hero-ball, but the numbers this year just don't back up that he's a "score-only" guard.

Dude's 5-11 in pumps and is pulling down 4.2 boards, dishing 4 dimes and grabbing a steal per game. Others who do the advance stats say his D is decent this year. His TOs aren't great - but that's part and parcel with high usage. Wade averaged 3.2 TOs per game in 2002-2003, his rebounds and steals were higher, but his assists were lower and he was scoring 5 points less a game on far less efficient shooting.

[1SE]

There are 100 players with better all-around games than Steph Curry in the NBA, but Steph is still a top 3 player in the league.

Sometimes impact or mastery of one essential skill > tools.

That said, Markus isn't D Wade. The stats are better but Wade's impact and team achievements speak for themselves.

I just don't get this. Wade's game against Kentucky was probably the best MU performance of all time, and perhaps on of the best in the history of the NCAA. Outside of that, he was a star, for sure, but he didn't go "video-game mode" with nearly the ease or regularity as Markus.

The FF was huge - and Wade was huge in getting us there. But that's ALL he has on Markus as a college player at this point IMHO.

[Its DJOver]

TAMU, you don't think level of competition has anything to do with it.  3 of 4 40+ point games for Markus came against high majors, and the 4th came against a top 25 mid major.  That's a lot more impressive than dominating CUSA the way Wade did, Markus would already be at 2000+ points if he were in CUSA.  Also, aren't you one of those that preaches that postseason games should be given the same weight as regular season games.  If we win the Beast, win the BET, and flame out in the NCAA I'm sure you would be on the train saying that it was a successful season with a disappointing ending.  Wade's triple double against the #1 team in the country is massively impressive (quite possible the greatest single game performance in MU history), but it's not more impressive just because it came in the tourney IMO.  It would have been just as impressive if he had done that in a regular season game against the #1 team in the country.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Hard to compare college players to each other in a vacuum just because we tend to lump in their NBA accomplishments as well, whether it's intentional or not.

For example, I think we can all agree that Vander, DJO, hell even Junior Cadougan were better players for Marquette than Dwight Buycks was. But Buycks has played more NBA games than the other three combined.

[BM1090]

I just don't get this. Wade's game against Kentucky was probably the best MU performance of all time, and perhaps on of the best in the history of the NCAA. Outside of that, he was a star, for sure, but he didn't go "video-game mode" with nearly the ease or regularity as Markus.

The FF was huge - and Wade was huge in getting us there. But that's ALL he has on Markus as a college player at this point IMHO.

I don't have access to the advanced stats but I assume Wade was a pretty elite defender both his years at MU. Markus is solid now but was bad the past two years.

I'm somewhat with you. If Markus leads a deep run this year or next I think the conversation can be had.

[Cheeks]

There are 100 players with better all-around games than Steph Curry in the NBA, but Steph is still a top 3 player in the league.

Sometimes impact or mastery of one essential skill > tools.

That said, Markus isn't D Wade. The stats are better but Wade's impact and team achievements speak for themselves.

True, one can excel at a few things and be great....see that in sports all the time.  But would you ever make a case for Steph as the GOAT. 

The situation matters a lot, too.  Reminds me of Ben Howland at UCLA, or Michael Jordan while playing for Dean Smith.  Howland had Russel Westbrook and others so clamped down on what they were allowed to do.  The joke with Jordan was that the only defender that could keep Jordan down was his coach.  Having good teammates also opens up spacing and opportunities.  Tony Smith, for example, had to do a bunch by himself with everyone keying on him.  George Thompson didn't have as much depth on all his teams as say Meminger or Lee did.  Tough to compare eras, even teams in same era because of the makeup of individuals.

One thing for certain, MH is going to go down as the greatest scorer in MU history.  He is an amazing guy to watch and by all accounts, a great young man.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

DJO, I'll ask again, who is better, Wade or Markus? I've asked a couple of times and I have yet to see anyone volunteer to say "I think Markus is better than Wade." Even you said Wade is better than Markus. That's what the GOAT is, the "greatest of all time". If not one person objectively thinks Markus is better than Wade I don't think its much of a conversation.

As for the tournament thing, I preach that solely looking at "Loyola went to the Final Four, Virginia lost in the first round. Loyola was a better team than Virginia" is dumb. That doesn't mean that you discard achievements in the postseason. I believe that good players lead their team to success in the postseason. That's why I personally am on Team Brady in the NFL GOAT discussion despite being a packer fan.

[lawdog77]

Unless MH is Player of the Year, he's not GOAT in my book. Butch Lee is the GOAT, while at Marquette.

That being said, if Markus comes back next year, his total points scored in a career may never be broken.

[Cheeks]

TAMU, you don't think level of competition has anything to do with it.  3 of 4 40+ point games for Markus came against high majors, and the 4th came against a top 25 mid major.  That's a lot more impressive than dominating CUSA the way Wade did, Markus would already be at 2000+ points if he were in CUSA.  Also, aren't you one of those that preaches that postseason games should be given the same weight as regular season games.  If we win the Beast, win the BET, and flame out in the NCAA I'm sure you would be on the train saying that it was a successful season with a disappointing ending.  Wade's triple double against the #1 team in the country is massively impressive (quite possible the greatest single game performance in MU history), but it's not more impressive just because it came in the tourney IMO.  It would have been just as impressive if he had done that in a regular season game against the #1 team in the country.

Thing is that I would argue Wade had overall more complete players around him, he didn't have to take over at times...more options for him.  Wade averaged more assists his last year than Howard does now.  Dwade had a very capable PG in Diener (Henry the year prior) that helped him but also meant the ball went a bunch of places. Merritt at SF, Jackson at center, Novak , etc.  That team had multiple future NBA players.  Maybe this MU team does, but certainly not a slam dunk.  Sam....maybe.  Joey, I don't know.  Hard to say.

Also, CUSA at that time was pretty good...4 teams went to the NCAAs.  That MU team beat Villanova, Pittsburgh (Big East champ), Wake Forest (ACC champ), Kentucky (SEC champ), top 10 Louisville, Wisconsin, Cincinnati, etc, etc.

[Its DJOver]

DJO, I'll ask again, who is better, Wade or Markus? I've asked a couple of times and I have yet to see anyone volunteer to say "I think Markus is better than Wade." Even you said Wade is better than Markus. That's what the GOAT is, the "greatest of all time". If not one person objectively thinks Markus is better than Wade I don't think its much of a conversation.

I think right now, Wade was better, but I certainly think Markus is close, and in a very good position to catch and potentially overtake Wade.  Even if he doesn't become an elite defender, distributor, or rebounder, his scoring is so elite that he can make up for it. 

As for the tournament thing, I preach that solely looking at "Loyola went to the Final Four, Virginia lost in the first round. Loyola was a better team than Virginia" is dumb. That doesn't mean that you discard achievements in the postseason. I believe that good players lead their team to success in the postseason. That's why I personally am on Team Brady in the NFL GOAT discussion despite being a packer fan.

This seems somewhat contradictory.  If a team has a bad performance in the postseason they can still be a great team, but if a player has a bad performance in the postseason, they get knocked for it.   Was it you or Brew (or both) that was preaching "it's only one data point" after the I4 loss.  Markus was objectively bad in that game, yet still is the favorite for Beast POY.  If Markus goes on a tear and averages 30 per leading us to the regular season and tourney championship, but pulls an I4 in the tourney, he'd still likely be an AA.

Ill also ask again about level of competition.  Where do you rank Chris Clemons, and Mike Daum in the college ranks.  They'll both hit 3,000 career points, but because of the level of competition, I don't think they're anywhere near someone like Zion or Markus.  Fair or not, Wade dominated in a lesser league.  Markus is dominating against high majors night in and night out.

[Cheeks]

I think right now, Wade was better, but I certainly think Markus is close, and in a very good position to catch and potentially overtake Wade.  Even if he doesn't become an elite defender, distributor, or rebounder, his scoring is so elite that he can make up for it. 

This seems somewhat contradictory.  If a team has a bad performance in the postseason they can still be a great team, but if a player has a bad performance in the postseason, they get knocked for it.   Was it you or Brew (or both) that was preaching "it's only one data point" after the I4 loss.  Markus was objectively bad in that game, yet still is the favorite for Beast POY.  If Markus goes on a tear and averages 30 per leading us to the regular season and tourney championship, but pulls an I4 in the tourney, he'd still likely be an AA.

Ill also ask again about level of competition.  Where do you rank Chris Clemons, and Mike Daum in the college ranks.  They'll both hit 3,000 career points, but because of the level of competition, I don't think they're anywhere near someone like Zion or Markus.  Fair or not, Wade dominated in a lesser league.  Markus is dominating against high majors night in and night out.

You have to admit, though, the Big East is down this year and that includes the elite players...right?  Last year the Big East was stacked with some great players, this year there is talent but young for the most part.

[MU82]

Wade played for 2 years. The first ended with a horrible first-round NCAA loss to Tulsa. The second came pretty darn close to ending with what would have been an even more horrible first-round NCAA loss to Holy Cross -- in a game that Wade, to put it generously, was not very good. What would his GOAT-ness level be if we had lost that game, or even the Mizzou game that Diener and Novak keyed?

I normally don't like such hypothetical situations -- especially those that attempt to rewrite history. But there are folks saying Wade was about more than just the couple games (especially Kentucky) that he carried us to the Final Four. And I agree to a degree. But really, what would his MU legacy have been if we had lost to Holy Cross? Heck, he might even be remembered as a talented guy who choked!

I say this not to cut down Wade, whom I regard as the best Warrior of at least the last 40 years and a great ambassador for our program to this day, but to say that Markus' MU story hasn't been finalized yet. Let's see what happens the next 6 weeks -- and then, perhaps, next season.

[Its DJOver]

You have to admit, though, the Big East is down this year and that includes the elite players...right?  Last year the Big East was stacked with some great players, this year there is talent but young for the most part.

I'm not going to pretend to understand how SRS and SOS are calculated exactly, but it would appear that the 2018-19 Beast is superior to the 2002-03 CUSA, by a fairly comfortable margin.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2003.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2019.html

[Cheeks]

I'm not going to pretend to understand how SRS and SOS are calculated exactly, but it would appear that the 2018-19 Beast is superior to the 2002-03 CUSA, by a fairly comfortable margin.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2003.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2019.html

Yes, because the bottom of CUSA was God Awful, but the top of it was better than the top of the current Big East. 

Sagarin goes back that far and CUSA was ranked 7th overall and four teams in the top 47, including two in the top 10, one at 26th and one at 47th.  This year's Big East is ranked fifth by Sagarin, but zero teams in the top ten (two ranked 19th and 20th), and one at 43rd and one at 49th.   But at the bottom, Big East has only one team worse than 100, while CUSA had six, including one worse than 200. 

CUSA was massively imbalanced, but the top of the league was very good, the bottom was horrific.  This year's Big East is good, not great...no great teams IMO, no bad teams either. 

[Its DJOver]

Yes, because the bottom of CUSA was God Awful, but the top of it was better than the top of the current Big East. 

Sagarin goes back that far and CUSA was ranked 7th overall and four teams in the top 47, including two in the top 10, one at 26th and one at 47th.  This year's Big East is ranked fifth by Sagarin, but zero teams in the top ten (two ranked 19th and 20th), and one at 43rd and one at 49th.   But at the bottom, Big East has only one team worse than 100, while CUSA had six, including one worse than 200. 

CUSA was massively imbalanced, but the top of the league was very good, the bottom was horrific.  This year's Big East is good, not great...no great teams IMO, no bad teams either.

I guess it's a good that that Markus has 2 45 point non-conference performances too, including one against a top 10 defense (per kenpom).

[BM1090]

Yes, because the bottom of CUSA was God Awful, but the top of it was better than the top of the current Big East. 

Sagarin goes back that far and CUSA was ranked 7th overall and four teams in the top 47, including two in the top 10, one at 26th and one at 47th.  This year's Big East is ranked fifth by Sagarin, but zero teams in the top ten (two ranked 19th and 20th), and one at 43rd and one at 49th.   But at the bottom, Big East has only one team worse than 100, while CUSA had six, including one worse than 200. 

CUSA was massively imbalanced, but the top of the league was very good, the bottom was horrific.  This year's Big East is good, not great...no great teams IMO, no bad teams either.

I'm not sure about that. CUSA in 2002 had 2 top 11 teams according to Kenpom. Cincy was 2. Marquette was 11. Memphis was 33 and Charlotte was 40. Nobody else was top 60 and 6 teams were below 100.

In 2003, CUSA had 4 top 60 teams and 7 below 100.

2002 CUSA might be better than 2019 Big East. But 2018 and 2017 Big East were far better than anything CUSA offered.

Interestingly, our 2002 team was ranked better than our 2003 team (11 vs. 15)

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think right now, Wade was better, but I certainly think Markus is close, and in a very good position to catch and potentially overtake Wade.  Even if he doesn't become an elite defender, distributor, or rebounder, his scoring is so elite that he can make up for it.

You and I disagree on the closeness and that's fine. Personally, I don't think Markus has caught Crowder yet and Crowder is behind Wade. Again, when you find someone who actually thinks Markus is better than Wade, let me know. Until then, I don't think there's any reasonable conversation to be had.

This seems somewhat contradictory.  If a team has a bad performance in the postseason they can still be a great team, but if a player has a bad performance in the postseason, they get knocked for it.   Was it you or Brew (or both) that was preaching "it's only one data point" after the I4 loss.  Markus was objectively bad in that game, yet still is the favorite for Beast POY.  If Markus goes on a tear and averages 30 per leading us to the regular season and tourney championship, but pulls an I4 in the tourney, he'd still likely be an AA.

If a player only has bad performances in the postseason, they can still be a great player. But it's unlikely that they'll be the GOAT. Also just because I say Virginia was a great team last season doesn't mean I didn't knock them for woeful postseason performance.

Ill also ask again about level of competition.  Where do you rank Chris Clemons, and Mike Daum in the college ranks.  They'll both hit 3,000 career points, but because of the level of competition, I don't think they're anywhere near someone like Zion or Markus.  Fair or not, Wade dominated in a lesser league.  Markus is dominating against high majors night in and night out.

Cheeks addressed this somewhat but Conference USA wasn't as bad as it is now. And it was certainly better than the conferences Daum and Clemons are currently playing in. Some really good teams at the top and some really really bad ones at the bottom. The level of competition argument doesn't really sway me. Wade was dominant against all levels of competition. You could have dropped him anywhere and he would have put up monster numbers and he showed that by turning in the most memorable individual performance in MU history against #1 Kentucky on one of the biggest stages. There's a reason why after college Wade was a top 5 pick. Now draft position doesn't mean he's the GOAT (because if it did Henry would be a lot higher on the MU pantheon than he actually is), but it is a testament to the talent and skill that he had.

Wade is the MU GOAT. I think that is a statement most would agree with. Could Markus catch him? Yes. Has he yet? No. Do I personally think he will? No but who cares what I think?