5 yrs is long enough

[nyg]

I think it aged fine. On paper, this should've been a comfortable win for Marquette. Wojo has a lot of work to do to make this team a comfortable tournament team. I certainly don't see K-State, Wisconsin, or Buffalo as certain wins.

We'll see how the season goes, bit it's a bit dispiriting to see Mack get that roster to playing us dead even after a few months considering this is the team Wojo has been building for 5 years.

[Pakuni]

MU has won the games it was expected to win and lost the games they were expected to lose. And this has some calling for the coach's firing and/or feeling blue.

Never change, Scoop.

[CleanishProgram]

So now he's dumb?
Please never post again.

You're right. Perhaps his sideline speeches better indicate that he believes his players can't comprehend complex schemes or language beyond a fifth grade level, not that he himself is actually struggling with the complexity of coaching against his peers. Similar to your posting behavior?

[Pakuni]

His point is ... why would anyone have seen those as certain wins in the first place?
They weren't certain wins when the schedule came out and they aren't certain wins now.
Big. Deal.

[Pakuni]

You're right. Perhaps his sideline speeches better indicate that he believes his players can't comprehend complex schemes or language beyond a fifth grade level, not that he himself is actually struggling with the complexity of coaching against his peers. Similar to your posting behavior?

Yes! So excited that the really, super smart fans are back to criticizing the "in the huddle" charade.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Again, why would anyone think those should be ceratain wins in the first place?  Two of the three teams are ranked higher than we are and may be favored.

[ATL MU Warrior]

His point is ... why would anyone have seen those as certain wins in the first place?
They weren't certain wins when the schedule came out and they aren't certain wins now.
Big. Deal.

Yes, thank you.

[CleanishProgram]

Yes! So excited that the really, super smart fans are back to criticizing the "in the huddle" charade.

There are two distinct groups here, I have come to realize.

Group 1 (Fire Wojo Crowd):  "In Wojo's Year 5, we notice significant flaws in the state of our program based on actual observation of Marquette's game-play. The games' final scores do not show the whole picture, because many would agree, our record would be similar with most other coaches.

Group 2 (Don't Fire Wojo Crowd):  "Let's let it play out, it's too early to judge. But anyone who questions Wojo's abilities as a coach is a fool and should stop posting."

Group 2 is much more likely to engage in ad hominem attacks or to demand the other group stop from posting. Why is this, when we are all ultimately seeking the best possible Marquette basketball program in the long-term? Is it because Group 2 takes an attack on Wojo as an attack on Marquette? Wojo is not Marquette.

[BallBoy]

For those of you who point out the 22-0 run as something that should never happen. MSU was losing by 19 and won by 10 over Texas. shaka's, the savior, Texas.

[Pakuni]

Group 2 is much more likely to engage in ad hominem attacks or to demand the other group stop from posting. Why is this, when we are all ultimately seeking the best possible Marquette basketball program in the long-term? Is it because Group 2 takes an attack on Wojo as an attack on Marquette? Wojo is not Marquette.

The lack of self-awareness in this post is spectacular.
1. No one has suggested you stop posting.
2. You clearly don't know what ad hominem means.

[BallBoy]

There are two distinct groups here, I have come to realize.

Group 1 (Fire Wojo Crowd):  "In Wojo's Year 5, we notice significant flaws in the state of our program based on actual observation of Marquette's game-play. The games' final scores do not show the whole picture, because many would agree, our record would be similar with most other coaches.

Group 2 (Don't Fire Wojo Crowd):  "Let's let it play out, it's too early to judge. But anyone who questions Wojo's abilities as a coach is a fool and should stop posting."

Group 2 is much more likely to engage in ad hominem attacks or to demand the other group stop from posting. Why is this, when we are all ultimately seeking the best possible Marquette basketball program in the long-term? Is it because Group 2 takes an attack on Wojo as an attack on Marquette? Wojo is not Marquette.

Your groups are right descriptions are wrong.

Group 1 - Fire Wojo. I really want a coach that is a little nutty and I never liked Wojo. Complain about every lose and can't for the life of me figured out way we haven't won a national title like Buzz and Crean did.

Group 2 - Wojo is building a program. Every year his teams have been better than the last. Players have been better and Recruits have been better. This during a period when MU struggled to remain competitive and recruits have little to no reason to go to Marquette unlike when the Big East was the league. Outside of the transition year Wojo isn't losing whole recruiting classes year over year and no off the court issues.

[ATL MU Warrior]

There are two distinct groups here, I have come to realize.

Group 1 (Fire Wojo Crowd):  "In Wojo's Year 5, we notice significant flaws in the state of our program based on actual observation of Marquette's game-play. The games' final scores do not show the whole picture, because many would agree, our record would be similar with most other coaches.

Group 2 (Don't Fire Wojo Crowd):  "Let's let it play out, it's too early to judge. But anyone who questions Wojo's abilities as a coach is a fool and should stop posting."

Group 2 is much more likely to engage in ad hominem attacks or to demand the other group stop from posting. Why is this, when we are all ultimately seeking the best possible Marquette basketball program in the long-term? Is it because Group 2 takes an attack on Wojo as an attack on Marquette? Wojo is not Marquette.

If "our record would be similar with most other coaches" what's the point of firing Wojo again? 

[brewcity77]

Mack walked into a solid team.

Not really. He saw Quentin Snider & Anas Mahmoud graduate and Deng Adel & Ray Spalding go pro. They lost 4 of their top-5 players from last year in terms of minutes and points. This isn't the same team that earned a NIT berth last year. Not even close.

Mack has done well with what was left, but they are definitely overachieving so far. I'm not looking at the line in terms of an expected result, I'm looking at what both teams mutually returned and added. If nothing else, the spread indicates we are underachieving and Louisville overachieving on that basis.

[CleanishProgram]

The lack of self-awareness in this post is spectacular.
1. No one has suggested you stop posting.
2. You clearly don't know what ad hominem means.

1. So, RushmoreAcademy writing, "Please never post again," is not a suggestion that I should stop posting. Got it. I'll ask you to do your own research on the many other examples sprinkled around here.

2. "Really, super smart fans." My bad, I thought that was sarcasm. I guess you think I am actually a super smart fun. Because at first, my sarcasm meter went off, which would have meant that you think I am NOT actually a super smart fan and perhaps I am actually a dumb fan and that my opinion is therefore less meaningful. Please help me understand the definition of an ad hominem attack.

[RushmoreAcademy]

The lack of self-awareness in this post is spectacular.
1. No one has suggested you stop posting.
2. You clearly don't know what ad hominem means.

To be fair I asked him to stop posting. I did say please though.

[CleanishProgram]

If "our record would be similar with most other coaches" what's the point of firing Wojo again?

I agree with your point, but let's revisit after Kansas State, Wisconsin, and Buffalo.

For the record, I feel strongly we are going to lose all three. And I feel strongly that a better coach would find a way to win 1 or 2 of these games in his fifth year of the program.

[CleanishProgram]

To be fair I asked him to stop posting. I did say please though.

Pakuni meant to write, "No one has asked you to stop posting...impolitely."

So, I'll give him the point.

[Pakuni]

1. So, RushmoreAcademy writing, "Please never post again," is not a suggestion that I should stop posting. Got it. I'll ask you to do your own research on the many other examples sprinkled around here.

2. "Really, super smart fans." My bad, I thought that was sarcasm. I guess you think I am actually a super smart fun. Because at first, my sarcasm meter went off, which would have meant that you think I am NOT actually a super smart fan and perhaps I am actually a dumb fan and that my opinion is therefore less meaningful. Please help me understand the definition of an ad hominem attack.

1. I missed Rushmore's post. Apparently he's the entirety of the second group of fans.
2. That's not an ad hominem.  And, yes, it was sarcasm.  Because anyone who thinks  the made for TV "inside the huddle" snippets are an accurate reflection of in-game coaching is not, in fact, very smart.

[wadesworld]

I agree with your point, but let's revisit after Kansas State, Wisconsin, and Buffalo.

For the record, I feel strongly we are going to lose all three. And I feel strongly that a better coach would find a way to win 1 or 2 of these games in his fifth year of the program.

So why waste your time? Both watching and posting here?

[wadesworld]

Not really. He saw Quentin Snider & Anas Mahmoud graduate and Deng Adel & Ray Spalding go pro. They lost 4 of their top-5 players from last year in terms of minutes and points. This isn't the same team that earned a NIT berth last year. Not even close.

Mack has done well with what was left, but they are definitely overachieving so far. I'm not looking at the line in terms of an expected result, I'm looking at what both teams mutually returned and added. If nothing else, the spread indicates we are underachieving and Louisville overachieving on that basis.

KenPom and Vegas both expected a close game. They're pretty good at what they do.

[CleanishProgram]

1. I missed Rushmore's post. Apparently he's the entirety of the second group of fans.
2. That's not an ad hominem.  And, yes, it was sarcasm.  Because anyone who thinks  the made for TV "inside the huddle" snippets are an accurate reflection of in-game coaching is not, in fact, very smart.

Here's another from a few days ago, I pasted it below. I'll scrounge up more, won't take me long.The reality is, if a poster on this forum believes the best course of action for Marquette is to move in a different direction regarding the head coach, a common reaction is to advise that person to stop posting.

"
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on November 14, 2018, 09:52:03 PM
Fire Wojo. And before you ask - no I don't post in the off-season.

You should probably stop posting during the season, too."

[BM1090]

I think it aged fine. On paper, this should've been a comfortable win for Marquette. Wojo has a lot of work to do to make this team a comfortable tournament team. I certainly don't see K-State, Wisconsin, or Buffalo as certain wins.

We'll see how the season goes, bit it's a bit dispiriting to see Mack get that roster to playing us dead even after a few months considering this is the team Wojo has been building for 5 years.

Why, on paper, should this have been a comfortable win?

The spread was 3.5. Kenpom had it as a 3 point victory. Nothing indicated this was going to be a "comfortable win". A win? Sure. But it was close as expected.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I agree with your point, but let's revisit after Kansas State, Wisconsin, and Buffalo.

For the record, I feel strongly we are going to lose all three. And I feel strongly that a better coach would find a way to win 1 or 2 of these games in his fifth year of the program.

So you want to fire Wojo because you think strongly that we might lose three upcoming games against teams that are ranked higher than we are?  And you think some other anonymous coach would do better than that?  Makes sense

[Silent Verbal]

Not really. He saw Quentin Snider & Anas Mahmoud graduate and Deng Adel & Ray Spalding go pro. They lost 4 of their top-5 players from last year in terms of minutes and points. This isn't the same team that earned a NIT berth last year. Not even close.

Mack has done well with what was left, but they are definitely overachieving so far. I'm not looking at the line in terms of an expected result, I'm looking at what both teams mutually returned and added. If nothing else, the spread indicates we are underachieving and Louisville overachieving on that basis.

I agree with this analysis.  Mack is a good coach and showed that again tonight, but Louisville will be a basement-level ACC team this year.  That said, Marquette needed a win, and they took care of business.

[CleanishProgram]

So why waste your time? Both watching and posting here?

I can enjoy Marquette basketball, and Marquette University for that matter, while simultaneously believing they are going to lose a game and should move on from their current coach. It's sort of how I am watching the Packers this year, I guess. I'm enjoying the dialogue on this forum, I appreciate that it's filled with critical opinions and reasonable optimism.