5 yrs is long enough

[BallBoy]

Not really. He saw Quentin Snider & Anas Mahmoud graduate and Deng Adel & Ray Spalding go pro. They lost 4 of their top-5 players from last year in terms of minutes and points. This isn't the same team that earned a NIT berth last year. Not even close.

Mack has done well with what was left, but they are definitely overachieving so far. I'm not looking at the line in terms of an expected result, I'm looking at what both teams mutually returned and added. If nothing else, the spread indicates we are underachieving and Louisville overachieving on that basis.

Except UL hasn’t overachieved. They lost.  They haven’t beaten anyone good yet either. Mack walked into a solid team. One 5 star and 5 four star recruits. None of which were his and all of which had at least one season in the NCAA’s and in the system.

[brewcity77]

KenPom and Vegas both expected a close game. They’re pretty good at what they do.

Yes, but to start the season, this was kenpom 29 vs kenpom 63. Starting today was 36 vs 57. That brought his projection closer & the results that led to that likely also brought Vegas closer.

So on a small sample size, Mack has overachieved and we have underachieved. Projected over a season, they would likely finish ahead of us.

[94Warrior]

So are you proposing that we fire Wojo in November, or fire him in March regardless of what happens between now and then?

I am proposing they start looking in the off season, if things don't get significantly better.  This team has top 20 talent, but don't play up to their potential.  They are no longer young, but continue to play soft.  We shouldn't be sweating the bubble, or heading to the NIT, but it looks like that's where we may be headed. 

I really miss how hard Buzz's teams played.  Crowder, DJO, Butler and even Vander didn't get pushed around. 

[Silent Verbal]

Except UL hasn’t overachieved. They lost.  They haven’t beaten anyone good yet either. Mack walked into a solid team. One 5 star and 5 four star recruits. None of which were his and all of which had at least one season in the NCAA’s and in the system.

Sounds kinda like the team Wojo walked into his first year on the job, hey?

[CleanishProgram]

So you want to fire Wojo because you think strongly that we might lose three upcoming games against teams that are ranked higher than we are?  And you think some other anonymous coach would do better than that?  Makes sense

I want Wojo to be terminated because I watched every minute of every game this season -- and most seasons for the past several years -- and didn't just look at the box score. Do you really think it is so insane to be pessimistic about Wojo's ability to make this team a perennial competitor in the NCAA tournament? I truly don't think he can or will do that. I am genuinely doubtful about his abilities.

Coaches get fired -- regularly. There are websites devoted to this topic, like Coaches Database.

[94Warrior]

  He has not yet made any of his team more than the sum of their parts.   Using tonight as an example of the team being 'soft' is just plain wrong.

The first 38 minutes were soft.  The last 2 and OT were better.  The fact remains UL let us off the hook with some terrible off the ball fouls on Markus, Sam.  They gave us 6 free throws down the stretch on DUMB fouls.  Thanks Loserville.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I want Wojo to be terminated because I watched every minute of every game this season -- and most seasons for the past several years -- and didn't just look at the box score. Do you really think it is so insane to be pessimistic about Wojo's ability to make this team a perennial competitor in the NCAA tournament? I truly don't think he can or will do that. I am genuinely doubtful about his abilities.

Coaches get fired -- regularly. There are websites devoted to this topic, like Coaches Database.

No, I don't think it's insane. I don't necessarily agree with it but I have my own doubts about his ceiling.

[Herman Cain]

There are two distinct groups here, I have come to realize.

Group 1 (Fire Wojo Crowd):  "In Wojo's Year 5, we notice significant flaws in the state of our program based on actual observation of Marquette's game-play. The games' final scores do not show the whole picture, because many would agree, our record would be similar with most other coaches.

Group 2 (Don't Fire Wojo Crowd):  "Let's let it play out, it's too early to judge. But anyone who questions Wojo's abilities as a coach is a fool and should stop posting."

Group 2 is much more likely to engage in ad hominem attacks or to demand the other group stop from posting. Why is this, when we are all ultimately seeking the best possible Marquette basketball program in the long-term? Is it because Group 2 takes an attack on Wojo as an attack on Marquette? Wojo is not Marquette.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ad%20hominem

[CleanishProgram]

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ad%20hominem

My point is that Group 2 is far more likely than Group 1 to attack the poster himself or herself as opposed to (or in addition to) the merits of the post. I think this is because Group 2 genuinely believes that members of Group 1 are working against the long-term well-being of the men's basketball team, while the members of Group 1 don't necessarily believe this about the members of Group 2, rather they just sort of hate Wojo's coaching. If I'm using the term ad hominem incorrectly, help me understand the better term, please? If you think I am just plain wrong then you can certainly argue that, but I'll pull the examples.

[94Warrior]

So you want to fire Wojo because you think strongly that we might lose three upcoming games against teams that are ranked higher than we are?  And you think some other anonymous coach would do better than that?  Makes sense

I guess I am tired of being unranked when we have better talent than half the ranked teams.  Use Wisconsin as an example.  We have far better talent, and it's not even close, yet there they are ranked and we needed a meltdown from a team in year 1 of a rebuild, to get to OT and remain in the 'others getting votes' category.  Not good enough.

[Pakuni]

I want Wojo to be terminated because I watched every minute of every game this season -- and most seasons for the past several years -- and didn't just look at the box score. Do you really think it is so insane to be pessimistic about Wojo's ability to make this team a perennial competitor in the NCAA tournament? I truly don't think he can or will do that. I am genuinely doubtful about his abilities.

Coaches get fired -- regularly. There are websites devoted to this topic, like Coaches Database.

No coach since Al has made this team a perennial  contender.  That's 40+ years ago. If that's your standard for success at MU, settle in for a lifetime of disappointment (and coaching changes).

[BM1090]

I guess I am tired of being unranked when we have better talent than half the ranked teams.  Use Wisconsin as an example.  We have far better talent, and it's not even close, yet there they are ranked and we needed a meltdown from a team in year 1 of a rebuild, to get to OT and remain in the 'others getting votes' category.  Not good enough.

Do we? Happ is better than anyone we have by far. Sam and Markus are probably the next two best players. But Trice, Reuvers, and Davison are better than our 3rd best player. All my opinion, of course.

[Silent Verbal]

No coach since Al has made this team a perennial  contender.  That's 40+ years ago. If that's your standard for success at MU, settle in for a lifetime of disappointment (and coaching changes).

Between Crean and Buzz, we made the tournament, what, 9 straight years before Buzz missed it in 2013-14?  I think that’s the standard most people want to get back to.  Given the program’s history and resources, I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

[CleanishProgram]

No coach since Al has made this team a perennial  contender.  That's 40+ years ago. If that's your standard for success at MU, settle in for a lifetime of disappointment (and coaching changes).

I wrote "perennial competitor" in the NCAA tournament. As in, the team MAKES the tournament and therefore is competing in the tournament.

I could have used clearer language to make my point that I expect a coach that brings this team to the NCAA tournament just about every year, with accommodations for cyclical change.

We are like 16th overall in terms of bids, historically. We should demand a coach that regularly gets us there. The reason we are even debating is because we both demand it and probably agree on different approaches to get back to it.

[wadesworld]

I guess I am tired of being unranked when we have better talent than half the ranked teams.  Use Wisconsin as an example.  We have far better talent, and it's not even close, yet there they are ranked and we needed a meltdown from a team in year 1 of a rebuild, to get to OT and remain in the 'others getting votes' category.  Not good enough.

So you think we have better talent than all but 12 teams in the country?

Sheesh.

[Pakuni]

Between Crean and Buzz, we made the tournament, what, 9 straight years before Buzz missed it in 2013-14?  I think that’s the standard most people want to get back to.  Given the program’s history and resources, I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

Most of those years MU was no threat to get past the Sweet 16, and certainly not a threat to win it all.
Yes, MU should be competing to get into the tournament every year. But competing to get in and being a competitor to win it are not the same.
Mu is well positioned to make the tournament this year and next. So, that's at least three of four.

[Mutaman]

I am proposing they start looking in the off season, if things don't get significantly better.  This team has top 20 talent, but don't play up to their potential.  They are no longer young, but continue to play soft.  We shouldn't be sweating the bubble, or heading to the NIT, but it looks like that's where we may be headed. 

I really miss how hard Buzz's teams played.  Crowder, DJO, Butler and even Vander didn't get pushed around.

The boys did not play soft tonight. The effort was 110%. The effort was Buzz like. No complaints from me.

[CleanishProgram]

Most of those years MU was no threat to get past the Sweet 16, and certainly not a threat to win it all.
Yes, MU should be competing to get into the tournament every year. But competing to get in and being a competitor to win it are not the same.
Mu is well positioned to make the tournament this year and next. So, that's at least three of four.

I believe it is wrong to expect Marquette to be in the mix of "winning it all" each year. And I never wrote that, you just chose your own word in place of mine.

I also don't agree that Marquette is well-positioned to make the tournament this year. As far as I can tell, they are positioned only for the bubble. I guess I liked last year's team better based on the current level of play, at this same time last year. We beat LSU, Vermont, Wisconsin (always nice) around this time.

And as I have written before, I'm predicting three losses to the next meaningful 3. I could be wrong, I could be right, who the hell knows.

[94Warrior]

The boys did not play soft tonight. The effort was 110%. The effort was Buzz like. No complaints from me.

Did you see the first 38 mins?  Makes me wonder if we were watching the same game.

[MUfan12]

Did you see the first 38 mins?  Makes me wonder if we were watching the same game.

They played hard. They didn't play smart.

[dgies9156]

The whole coaching thing breaks down into three groups:

Group 1 -- We want Marquette back to what it was under Coach Al. We want to be a perenial contender for a natchamp. We spend the money. We're in a great conference. We have some recognition. All we need is a leader. We have serious doubts as to whether Coach Wojo is it. We don't like the sloppiness and lack of collaboration on the floor and this is all coaching.

Group 2 --Coach Al retired in 1977. That was a looooonnnnnngggg time ago. College basketball has changed and schools like Marquette should be happy to be in the tournament periodically. Our conference isn't what it used to be and it has been 15 years since DWade got us to the Final Four. If we get someone really good, he will just leave for a Power Five Conference anyway. Our team and our coach represent Marquette well. Let's be happy for what we have.

Group 3 -- We're p**sed. We don't like what we see so far. The Presbyterian game scared the absolute hell out of us. It isn't that we lost to Kansas, it is how we lost to Kansas. We squandered an opportunity because we lacked poise. We're down on Coach Wojo, who is in his fifth year and should be producing a far better product than he has shown. We're not a mid-major but at times we play like one. We're frustrated at Coach Wojo but we are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until next March. But by the grace of God, we BETTER be in the NCAA tournament. If we aren't.....

I'm personally probably somewhere between 1 and 3. I think it is counterproductive to formally put Coach Wojo on probation of sorts and I sure hope the ship gets righted for the coming month. I really want him to succeed at Marquette but I definitely am concerned that we're not getting there. This team is not fun to watch at times, especially when the offense shuts down or relies on "3"s to the detriment of anything else. Our defense is better and I give Coach a lot of credit for that, but our team has to come together.

[Herman Cain]

My point is that Group 2 is far more likely than Group 1 to attack the poster himself or herself as opposed to (or in addition to) the merits of the post. I think this is because Group 2 genuinely believes that members of Group 1 are working against the long-term well-being of the men's basketball team, while the members of Group 1 don't necessarily believe this about the members of Group 2, rather they just sort of hate Wojo's coaching. If I'm using the term ad hominem incorrectly, help me understand the better term, please? If you think I am just plain wrong then you can certainly argue that, but I'll pull the examples.

I think you are using it correctly .

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I don't think this is the game to criticize the team for being soft. Tough, grind it out game that our boys came out on top of.

I was expecting a bigger win tonight. Like Brew I though the Vegas line was too small and that we would win by more. Despite that, there were some things that gave me some hope.

All the complaints after Kansas were that we didn't work the post enough and get to the line. Next game, we only took 18 3P shots (2 less than Louisville) and we made it to the line 23 times. Louisville's plan was obviously to run us off the three point line and we were able to adjust and win any way. I don't think you will see many games this season where our opponent shoots more threes than we do.

Other big complaint after Kansas was that Markus does too much hero ball. Well this game he had the defenses whole attention. By my count there were only two forced hero ball type shots and he limited his TOs to 1 while leading the team in assists. Not his most efficient game but he was patient and came up big in winning time. Again, making adjustments.

Defense continues to impress. Maybe Louisville isn't that good at offense but look at what they were able to do to Tennessee, one of the top defensive teams in the country. Transitive property of basketball isn't a thing of course, but it shows that the offensive talent is there. MU really limited them. Maybe it was my bias but I also felt like Louisville hit a lot more tough shots than we did. Our contested bunnies seemed to rim out while they got a lot of friendly rolls. Swear that Cunningham kid got an underhanded scoop through two defenders at the end of the shot clock that hit the backboard and the rim four times before going in.

As for all the b*tching between the different kinds of fans....I think Scoop has reached the online forum equivalent of desperately needing to get laid.

[Mutaman]

They played hard. They didn't play smart.

Exactly.

[skianth16]

Reasonable people can disagree. It's fair to remain optimistic because our record is what was expected through 6 games. It's also fair to be pessimistic because 180-200 minutes played this year have been reminiscent of disappointing outcomes from years past.

Honestly, if the biggest praise we have so far for Wojo is that he is great at meeting expectations and isn't paying players (dropping bags for Titus fans), then it makes a lot of sense as to why the board is so divided.

We'll have a better idea of what to expect for the coming months by Dec 8.