NFL 2018-19 2.0

[Jockey]

Brady may be the GOAT........

But, Mahoney was the better QB yesterday.

He was harassed on at least half of his throws yesterday and still put as many points on the board in regulation. Brady was able to throw like it was a walk-through practice. The only time I remember anyone from the defense even get close? A bogus roughing the passer call that helped decide the game.

[wadesworld]

Brady doesn't get touched because he gets the ball out.

Let's keep in mind that Mahomes took a sack to take the Chiefs out of field goal range in a game that went to overtime.  And it wasn't just some 3 yard, he stepped up in the pocket to try to keep them in field goal range but there was just nothing there.  He got pressured up the middle and tried to run backwards and took a 10+ yard sack while they were in field goal range.  Brady doesn't do that, the Pats get the points, and this is why they're champions.  Discipline is part of being a great quarterback.

[JWags85]

Well, 10-5. but still ...they were the 12th-ranked passing offense with Cassell, after being 1st the year before with Brady and third the year after with Brady.
4,731 yards passing in 2007
3,569 yards passing in 2008
4,436 yards passing in 2009.

QB no matta?


Brissett was thoroughly mediocre, throwing for zero TDs and 400 yards in about 10+ quarters of football.
Jimmy G played 1+ games and was good, but way too small of a sample size. and his success in SF indicates he's a pretty good QB and not a product of the New England system, which sorta wrecks your argument.

Why not talk about McDaniels' 28 games in Denver, or Brian Daboll's five seasons as an NFL coordinator, or Bill O'Brien's five seasons in Houston, in which his offenses have ranked 17th, 19th, 29th, 20th and 15th? Or the Charlie Weis' one season as OC in Kansas City, when they had the league's 30th ranked offense?

For the record, I'm never saying Brady is barely replacement level.  I fully admit that he's a great QB, just not heads and tails better than his high level peers.  Cassell was thoroughly mediocre (his only good post-Pats season was 2010 with an All Pro RB and an All Pro WR) and still had by far his best season and shepherded that Pats team to a near Playoff berth.  I'm not saying the Pats do what they do with Colt McCoy or Blake Bortles.  But I think they do with Brees, Rodgers, or even Matt Ryan if you wanna get spicy.  Brady's greatest strength in my opinion has been his longevity and relative durability

As for JG and Brissett, the offense didn't fall apart like most good teams with a good QB do.

Lets see, Brian Daboll isn't a good coordinator.  He was never an OC with the Pats, he was so bad he was brought in as an offensive assistant after being in the league 12 years.  Bill O'Brien had scrubs at QB until this years.  Josh McDaniels lit a franchise on fire the minute he walked in and never had any respect or buy-in.  And I don't even know what to say about Weis who has been a joke since the debacle at ND.

From all accounts BB is a dictator and an overlord, to great success.  Its no surprise to see his acolytes fail to blossom away from him.

[Jockey]

Brady doesn't get touched because he gets the ball out.

Let's keep in mind that Mahomes took a sack to take the Chiefs out of field goal range in a game that went to overtime.  And it wasn't just some 3 yard, he stepped up in the pocket to try to keep them in field goal range but there was just nothing there.  He got pressured up the middle and tried to run backwards and took a 10+ yard sack while they were in field goal range.  Brady doesn't do that, the Pats get the points, and this is why they're champions.  Discipline is part of being a great quarterback.

Brady threw downfield many times with no pressure whatsoever. Mahoney faced constant pressure - even on quick throws.

I also never said Brady wasn’t a great QB. Just said Mahomes was the better QB in this game.

Brady needed a bogus call to help him win. LA needed a bogus call in order to win. That does not mean they were the better teams.

[StillAWarrior]

But, Mahoney was the better QB yesterday.

Well, those Irish kids often make good quarterbacks.

[wadesworld]

Brady threw downfield many times with no pressure whatsoever. Mahoney faced constant pressure - even on quick throws.

I also never said Brady wasn’t a great QB. Just said Mahomes was the better QB in this game.

Brady needed a bogus call to help him win. LA needed a bogus call in order to win. That does not mean they were the better teams.

Did Brady really need a bogus call to help him win?  The call was on 2nd and 7 in a 4 point game with 8 minutes left in the game.  Given that the Chiefs got the Patriots to 3rd and medium/long multiple times on each of their last 3 drives and never got off the field, are we sure they would've gotten off the field there?  The fact of the matter is the Patriots last 3 drives resulted in touchdowns.  There's a lot more evidence to suggest that the Chiefs weren't stopping the Patriots than there is to suggest the Patriots needed that call to win the game.

[Pakuni]

Bill O'Brien had scrubs at QB until this years.

So quarterbacks make a difference?
I read somewhere it was the scheme.

  Lets see, Brian Daboll isn't a good coordinator.  He was never an OC with the Pats, he was so bad he was brought in as an offensive assistant after being in the league 12 years. Josh McDaniels lit a franchise on fire the minute he walked in and never had any respect or buy-in.  And I don't even know what to say about Weis who has been a joke since the debacle at ND.

So, basically Tom Brady has had a bunch of clowns as his offensive coaches over the years, and his success is a result of the schemes and playcalling implemented by a bunch of clowns?

The funny thing is, the Patriots don't really have a single offensive scheme. A huge part of their success has been their ability to adapt what they do to the talent on the field. When they had Moss and Stallworth, they were one of the greatest vertical passing teams the league's ever seen. When they had Gronk in his prime paired with pre-murder Hernandez, they killed you with double tight end sets. Now with Edelman and White, they're masters of the dink and dunk.

This, of course, takes an exceptionally talented and versatile quarterback to pull off. Maybe one of these days they'll find one. For now, they're stuck with a system guy.

[Cheeks]

41 years old

41 years old

41 years old

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Bears in London next year. First time Mack will have to face the Raiders as well. Gruden better draft about five offensive linemen this go around, cause it could get ugly.

Great excuse to go visit some of my friends from grad school.

[Jockey]

The funny thing is, the Patriots don't really have a single offensive scheme. A huge part of their success has been their ability to adapt what they do to the talent on the field. When they had Moss and Stallworth, they were one of the greatest vertical passing teams the league's ever seen. When they had Gronk in his prime paired with pre-murder Hernandez, they killed you with double tight end sets. Now with Edelman and White, they're masters of the dink and dunk.

Excellent post.  Always thought BB’s best ability was adjusting to the talent he had.

[JWags85]

So quarterbacks make a difference?
I read somewhere it was the scheme.

So, basically Tom Brady has had a bunch of clowns as his offensive coaches over the years, and his success is a result of the schemes and playcalling implemented by a bunch of clowns?

The funny thing is, the Patriots don't really have a single offensive scheme. A huge part of their success has been their ability to adapt what they do to the talent on the field. When they had Moss and Stallworth, they were one of the greatest vertical passing teams the league's ever seen. When they had Gronk in his prime paired with pre-murder Hernandez, they killed you with double tight end sets. Now with Edelman and White, they're masters of the dink and dunk.

This, of course, takes an exceptionally talented and versatile quarterback to pull off. Maybe one of these days they'll find one. For now, they're stuck with a system guy.

Are you purposefully ignoring where Ive NEVER said Brady wasn't a great QB?  My only contention is he's not the best of all time cause he plays in a scheme where others would be successful.  I could have the most perfect scheme ever but I'm gonna run it better with an above average QB than I am with Nathan Peterman.

Daboll was never Brady's coordinator or coach. Lets see what O'Brien does with more than one year of a QB who isn't Tom Savage or Brandon Weeden. And McDaniels is a good OC who failed outside of NE for reasons that had nothing to do with playcalling.  And why is he a good OC?  Cause he has been with Belicheck executing his vision for all but 3 of his 18 seasons of NFL experience.

I also find it odd to call Brady exceptionally versatile when they've never been able to roll him out or move the pocket around.  He makes Manning look fleet of foot.

[forgetful]

This, of course, takes an exceptionally talented and versatile quarterback to pull off. Maybe one of these days they'll find one. For now, they're stuck with a system guy.

To be fair, anyone and everyone that has had to fill in for him over the years has had tremendous success, leading to mega deals elsewhere in some cases, where in most cases they flopped. 

I'm not saying it is necessarily a system-thing (although it helps). But it is an offensive line thing. For almost all of his career, he has been behind one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, the seasons he wasn't he struggled a lot more. That is the biggest deal in the NFL, the offensive line. Give elite QBs time and comfort and they will look all world, even if they are middle of the pack talent.

That is why "intelligence" is one of the big factors for success as a QB. Given protection, an intelligent QB will pick apart any defense.

[Pakuni]

To be fair, anyone and everyone that has had to fill in for him over the years has had tremendous success, leading to mega deals elsewhere in some cases, where in most cases they flopped. 

This isn't true.
In the Brady era, here are the QB ratings of guys other than Brady who have thrown 50+ passes Patriots:
Matt Cassel: 88.2
Brian Hoyer: 80.1
Jimmy Garoppolo: 106.2
Jacoby Brissett: 83.9

Brady's career QBR = 97.6.

So, only one had anything close to tremendous success, and the others were wholly average or worse. And given Jimmy G's success in a different system with a different team, its fair to argue that he had tremendous success because he's good.
FWIW, if you want me to throw in the guys who've thrown fewer than 50 passes, all-timers like Rohan Davey, Kevin O'Connell, Brock Huard and Ryan Mallet, I can do that, but it won't help your case.

[Pakuni]

Are you purposefully ignoring where Ive NEVER said Brady wasn't a great QB?  My only contention is he's not the best of all time cause he plays in a scheme where others would be successful.  I could have the most perfect scheme ever but I'm gonna run it better with an above average QB than I am with Nathan Peterman.

Others haven't been nearly as successful in the same scheme, whether it be in New England or elsewhere.
But fine, I'm fairly certain you could make a similar argument for any great QB.
Who's your greatest, then?

[MU82]

Haven't seen a single argument yet that comes close to proving that Brady is anything but the greatest ever.

Opinions are opinions. We all have 'em, and that's cool. My opinion is that the guy who has won 5 SBs (perhaps going on 6), has competed in (now) 4 others, has passed for 70K yards and 500+ TDs in the regular season, and has led some of the most remarkable, memorable postseason drives in history ... that guy is the best ever. All despite playing under a variety of offensive coordinators and alongside dozens of "skill" position players, some of whom might never have been any good at all had other QBs throwing to them.

And I say all this as a guy who hates the Patriots.

I'm open-minded. If somebody can make a convincing, "Oh, Brady's only the 6th best ever" argument, I'm open to it. But lots of folks are throwing out all kinds of stuff so far that doesn't come anywhere near convincing me.

[JWags85]

Others haven't been nearly as successful in the same scheme, whether it be in New England or elsewhere.
But fine, I'm fairly certain you could make a similar argument for any great QB.
Who's your greatest, then?

I think Rodgers is probably the most talented.  I think there is a grouping of Brady, Brees, Montana, Manning, and Rodgers that you could all make arguments for.  I think this open and closed, unquestioned GOAT label always put on Brady is overdone, thats all.

This isn't true.
In the Brady era, here are the QB ratings of guys other than Brady who have thrown 50+ passes Patriots:
Matt Cassel: 88.2
Brian Hoyer: 80.1
Jimmy Garoppolo: 106.2
Jacoby Brissett: 83.9

Brady's career QBR = 97.6.

So, only one had anything close to tremendous success, and the others were wholly average or worse. And given Jimmy G's success in a different system with a different team, its fair to argue that he had tremendous success because he's good.

Cassell's Pats passer rating would be in the top 25 career passer ratings.  Hell, he was top 10 in the league in passing that year.  In no way was he wholly average.  The rest of his career, definitely so.  And Brian Hoyer never started a game so thats far from representative.

[MU82]

I think Rodgers is probably the most talented.  I think there is a grouping of Brady, Brees, Montana, Manning, and Rodgers that you could all make arguments for.  I think this open and closed, unquestioned GOAT label always put on Brady is overdone, thats all.

I've always thought Marino was the "most talented." A golden arm. Quickest release ever. Just about never got sacked because of that quick release and amazing pocket awareness. His second season in the league, he had a season that was statistically so superior to any other QB who had ever played that it started the scramble for this very copy-cat league to figure out how to compete with the Marino-led Miami offense. He broke the mold and ushered in a new era. He also went 14-2 and led the Dolphins to the SB that year.

But I'd never argue he was the best ever or even particularly close. One SB appearance, in his 2nd NFL season, and then a string of postseason defeats, often by lopsided scores. Just doesn't cut it.

Not easy to compare eras, though. Marino's center during his first 5 seasons was Dwight Stephenson, a perennial All-Pro who weighed 250 pounds. Can you imagine?

How good would Unitas or Bradshaw or Archie Manning have been playing in this pass-first, "can't touch the QB" era and if they (Manning especially) had been surrounded by great teammates? So we can only go with the results we've had.

Brady is No. 1 and, as I said, I think by a wide margin. Then maybe Montana and Peyton Manning. Then any of several others. I always thought Staubach was incredible, and I hated the Cowboys.

All I'll say is that any objective observer who really watched Marino's best dozen+ years and also have witnessed Rodgers' career, what criteria would place Rodgers ahead of Marino? Rodgers' 1 SB title? OK, then Brady "obviously" is miles better than Rodgers because he's got 5 of 'em.

[Pakuni]

Cassell's Pats passer rating would be in the top 25 career passer ratings.

Comparing career passer ratings across eras is kind of worthless, though. Kirk Cousins has a better career rating than Kurt Warner, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Brett Favre and Jim Kelly.
Heck, Cassel's rating is better than Marino, Kelly and Favre.

But OK, he was 9th one season, with an 89.4 rating. He threw 21 TDs and 11 INTs.
The year before, with the same supporting cast, Brady posted a 117.2 rating. He threw 50 TDs and 8 INTs.
Same system, same coaches, same offensive weapons .... not the same production. 

[JWags85]

But OK, he was 9th one season, with an 89.4 rating. He threw 21 TDs and 11 INTs.
The year before, with the same supporting cast, Brady posted a 117.2 rating. He threw 50 TDs and 8 INTs.
Same system, same coaches, same offensive weapons .... not the same production.

Dude, for the last time.  Ive never said Brady was an average QB or just another guy.  And I'm not saying Kirk Cousins comes in and has the same career.  But the system definitely made an average at best guy, like Cassell, above average.  That doesn't mean Brady=Cassell.

[jesmu84]

I think pats success across QBs under belicheck is a testament to belichecks ability to build/improve a team and scheme against opponent's.

I think qb success for pats/belicheck is also evidence of the same (as evidenced by most of those QBs failing elsewhere)

I think Brady's significant statistical improvement over other QBs in the pats/belicheck system is a testament to Brady's ability.

I think coordinators under belicheck failing elsewhere is a testament to belichecks ability and evidence of how much he micromanages.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Bears in London next year. First time Mack will have to face the Raiders as well. Gruden better draft about five offensive linemen this go around, cause it could get ugly.

Great excuse to go visit some of my friends from grad school.

Hoping to see the double, Bears and Tottenham at their new stadium on the same weekend. 

[Lennys Tap]

Haven't seen a single argument yet that comes close to proving that Brady is anything but the greatest ever.

Opinions are opinions. We all have 'em, and that's cool. My opinion is that the guy who has won 5 SBs (perhaps going on 6), has competed in (now) 4 others, has passed for 70K yards and 500+ TDs in the regular season, and has led some of the most remarkable, memorable postseason drives in history ... that guy is the best ever. All despite playing under a variety of offensive coordinators and alongside dozens of "skill" position players, some of whom might never have been any good at all had other QBs throwing to them.

And I say all this as a guy who hates the Patriots.

I'm open-minded. If somebody can make a convincing, "Oh, Brady's only the 6th best ever" argument, I'm open to it. But lots of folks are throwing out all kinds of stuff so far that doesn't come anywhere near convincing me.

Very well said, Mike. Five years ago my opinion was that Joe Montana was the GOAT. What Brady has accomplished when most would be retired or greatly diminished has convinced me otherwise.

[Not A Serious Person]

Very well said, Mike. Five years ago my opinion was that Joe Montana was the GOAT. What Brady has accomplished when most would be retired or greatly diminished has convinced me otherwise.

No question Brady is the GOAT.

The better question is who overtakes him for this moniker?  Mahomes?  Trevor Lawrence? Someone else?  Or no one currently on the radar?

[Cheeks]

No question Brady is the GOAT.

The better question is who overtakes him for this moniker?  Mahomes?  Trevor Lawrence? Someone else?  Or no one currently on the radar?

He might still be playing when those guys retire

[Pakuni]

Dude, for the last time.  Ive never said Brady was an average QB or just another guy.  And I'm not saying Kirk Cousins comes in and has the same career.  But the system definitely made an average at best guy, like Cassell, above average.  That doesn't mean Brady=Cassell.

Dude, I've never said you're calling Brady an average QB.
I'm saying that the argument that Brady's greatness is because of the system is a bad take.