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Author Topic: NBA Thread 2019-20  (Read 39547 times)

Pakuni

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #750 on: June 16, 2019, 03:03:58 PM »
I think the point being missed by many is the severe lack of protections in place. If all these picks were protected, that’d be different.

I'm not missing that point, I'm just not convinced protection will be necessary. I see no reason anyone would be confident that the 2023-2025 Lakers will be among the league's worst teams. And as the Ringer story illustrates, lottery picks outside the top 5 are rarely all stars and only become NBA starters about 50 percent of the time. 
So, the "good" bet here by the Pelicans  is that a) the Lakers will be very bad in 4-5 years and b) they'll hit on their picks.

I'm not knocking the Pelicans' return. I think they probably did the best they could. But it's far from a sure thing that these future draft picks are as valuable as some seem to believe.

MU82

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #751 on: June 16, 2019, 03:48:24 PM »
No disrespect to Kemba, but I don’t see that and don’t think he’s a good fit. He’s a ball dominant PG who isn’t a great defender and his best skill is scoring. He will be the 3rd option there. And you take a guy who scores a ton leading the offense and want to put him on the wing for catch and shoot? Just doesn’t makes sense to me. Honestly someone like Tobias Harris fits better IMO.

And I was talking to another friend of mine, who is a Lakers fan, and he’s not totally convinced Lebron and AD coexist as perfectly as people think. AD is versatile, but he’s still a C, and Lebron has not had great success getting the best out of skilled big men in his career.

If you’re a Lakers hater or NO fan, the not impossible dream scenario is AD picking  up another injury (he’s the Gronk of the NBA in that regard) and Lebron mailing it in afterwards.

Also, if you’re the Pels, you don’t trade Jrue. Jrue and Lonzo are likely a top 2 defensive backcourt in the league

During the Hornets' most recent playoff season, Kemba played off the ball A LOT. Nice Batum and Jeremy Lin did a huge amount of ballhandling.

Kemba would play fine with LeBron and Davis if he chose to sign with LA.

The other stuff you say here ... I guess we'll see if LeBron and Davis can play together and if AD can stay healthy.
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wadesworld

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #752 on: June 16, 2019, 04:21:40 PM »
While 5-7 teams every year have an incentive to tank (better chance at a top 3 draft pick), the Lakers will not have that incentive (the Pelicans, a team in their Conference, will have their picks). You have to be REALLY bad to finish below teams TRYING to lose if you have no incentive to lose yourself. Just look at the Celtics and their refusal to trade their Nets pick for a number of stars, including Kawhi. They hung on thinking they’ll go bigger and it’ll be the key piece in their package for AD and then sign him long term, and then it turns out the Nets make the Playoffs.

Jockey

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #753 on: June 16, 2019, 05:29:07 PM »
Agreed. With this trade, the Lakers really should be AD's team, not Lebron's. AD is young, entering his prime, and at least last year was the better player.

No reason Lebron retiring should make the Lakers suddenly a lottery team.

I don't think AD has ever shown the alpha dog mentality in the NBA. Maybe that can change. I don't see it though.

The Lakers will still be LBJ's team this year.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #754 on: June 16, 2019, 06:04:39 PM »
BS. If they want the freedom to play where they want to, they can sign 1-year contracts. Just like everything in life, you can't have everything you want, you have to make sacrifices. Whining about how "unfair" free agency is in the NBA is ridiculous.


Per usual, nothing you said negates my point.  As I said, its leverage to get "max deals where they want to play."  A one year contract isn't a max deal.

NBA free agency is by and large unfair to those at the top end of the pyramid.  Those players are routinely underpaid considering their impact.  Now it was collectively bargained, so its legally fine, but I don't blame super stars for doing what they do to leverage what they want.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

wadesworld

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #755 on: June 16, 2019, 06:33:03 PM »
Most businesses are made to be profitable. How do you know what an employee “is worth,” and if you pay every single employee what they’re “worth” are you still going to have a business? If LeBron James and Michael Jordan never existed do David Robinson (or pick the 2nd best player from that era) and Kevin Durant become “worth” what those 2 were/are?

Personally, I think anybody making $25M+/year in base salary and hundreds of millions more (total, not yearly) in endorsements is compensated more than “fairly.”
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 06:34:50 PM by wadesworld »

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #756 on: June 16, 2019, 06:59:44 PM »
Most businesses are made to be profitable. How do you know what an employee “is worth,” and if you pay every single employee what they’re “worth” are you still going to have a business? If LeBron James and Michael Jordan never existed do David Robinson (or pick the 2nd best player from that era) and Kevin Durant become “worth” what those 2 were/are?

Personally, I think anybody making $25M+/year in base salary and hundreds of millions more (total, not yearly) in endorsements is compensated more than “fairly.”


I don’t think your opinion has anything to do with it. The market does.

James would undoubtedly make much more money without the CBA restrictions in place. Michael Jordan made $33 million in his last year because the cap was more flexible then. And that was 20 years ago.

“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Jockey

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #757 on: June 16, 2019, 07:00:00 PM »
I'm not missing that point, I'm just not convinced protection will be necessary. I see no reason anyone would be confident that the 2023-2025 Lakers will be among the league's worst teams. And as the Ringer story illustrates, lottery picks outside the top 5 are rarely all stars and only become NBA starters about 50 percent of the time. 
So, the "good" bet here by the Pelicans  is that a) the Lakers will be very bad in 4-5 years and b) they'll hit on their picks.

I'm not knocking the Pelicans' return. I think they probably did the best they could. But it's far from a sure thing that these future draft picks are as valuable as some seem to believe.

I think you are spot on. I agree that the Pelicans got a very good return. But, draft picks are an unknown. And as you said, we don't know where those picks will be and if some will even have much value if they are late 1st round.

I think the Lakers clearly "won" this trade. It took them from being a non-playoff team to being one of the top contenders for the title.

MU82

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #758 on: June 16, 2019, 09:02:29 PM »

I don’t think your opinion has anything to do with it. The market does.

James would undoubtedly make much more money without the CBA restrictions in place. Michael Jordan made $33 million in his last year because the cap was more flexible then. And that was 20 years ago.

Well then, James should do what Jordan did and work hard to get a better CBA.

Until then, he'll have to feed Latrell Sprewell's family the best he can.
“Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.”

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Pakuni

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #759 on: June 16, 2019, 09:06:56 PM »

I don’t think your opinion has anything to do with it. The market does.

James would undoubtedly make much more money without the CBA restrictions in place. Michael Jordan made $33 million in his last year because the cap was more flexible then. And that was 20 years ago.

Exactly.
It's OK to say "NBA players make a sh*tload of money and should feel blessed" while also recognizing they play under a system that artificially depresses the compensation of the best players.
These two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #760 on: June 16, 2019, 09:20:38 PM »
Exactly.
It's OK to say "NBA players make a sh*tload of money and should feel blessed" while also recognizing they play under a system that artificially depresses the compensation of the best players.
These two concepts are not mutually exclusive.


Right.  I'm not saying anyone should feel sorry for them either.  I just find it odd that Leonard gets criticized for using his leverage to get himself a better deal, but owners like Lasry and Edens are praised for their ownership when much of it is based on how they blackmailed taxpayers to get them to fund a new arena.

“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

wadesworld

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #761 on: June 16, 2019, 09:22:49 PM »

Right.  I'm not saying anyone should feel sorry for them either.  I just find it odd that Leonard gets criticized for using his leverage to get himself a better deal, but owners like Lasry and Edens are praised for their ownership when much of it is based on how they blackmailed taxpayers to get them to fund a new arena.

Kawhi is on the same deal he was on with the Spurs.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #762 on: June 17, 2019, 07:30:28 AM »
Kawhi is on the same deal he was on with the Spurs.

Yeah no kidding. It’s about his next deal.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

wadesworld

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #763 on: June 17, 2019, 08:10:50 AM »
Yeah no kidding. It’s about his next deal.

He was a Finals MVP at 22 years old.  He finished 3rd in NBA MVP voting in the last year he actually played with the Spurs.  He was the head and shoulders star of a team that was up 20 in Game 1 of the Western Conference Finals before Zaza stepped under his foot and he missed the rest of the series against the GSW.  You really think he was going to be anything other than a max contract player this offseason had he continued playing with the Spurs?  I, for one, do not.  If anything, he gave up money by not being eligible as a super max player.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #764 on: June 17, 2019, 08:15:06 AM »
Of course you are assuming he wants to play for the Spurs.  Which he didn't seem to want to any longer for whatever reason.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

wadesworld

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #765 on: June 17, 2019, 08:48:49 AM »
Of course you are assuming he wants to play for the Spurs.  Which he didn't seem to want to any longer for whatever reason.

Then he should've considered that before signing a 5 year contract with the Spurs.  He has only himself to blame for that.  He could've signed a 1 year qualifying offer when his rookie contract was up and been an unrestricted free agent and free to go to LA or wherever else he wanted to.

The guy had an injury that his own teammates said they had and came back from in 2 weeks and Kawhi sat out an entire season.  He then threatened to sit out an entire season after that if he did not get traded for no reason other than he didn't want to play for one of the best basketball coaches in the history of the sport.  The guy should get backlash from that, but rarely seemed to.  Comparing it to an owner of a team saying the team needs to get a new stadium is silly.  The owner bought the franchise with the contingency that a new stadium would be built.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #766 on: June 17, 2019, 09:03:42 AM »
The owner bought the franchise with the contingency that a new stadium would be built.


What?  No he didn't.  The Bucks were purchased in early 2014 and the new arena financing wasn't approved until the Summer and Fall of 2015.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

wadesworld

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #767 on: June 17, 2019, 09:30:19 AM »

What?  No he didn't.  The Bucks were purchased in early 2014 and the new arena financing wasn't approved until the Summer and Fall of 2015.

Yes, they did.  The Bucks were sold to these owners because they agreed to keep the franchise in Milwaukee.  And the owners agreed to keep the franchise in Milwaukee only if a new arena was built.  If a new arena wasn't built (or financing agreed upon, I can't remember which) by a certain date then they had the right to sell the franchise back for a certain profit.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #768 on: June 17, 2019, 09:41:18 AM »
Gotcha.  I had forgot about that.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

MUBurrow

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #769 on: June 20, 2019, 10:54:13 AM »
What ya'll think about the Bucks selling their first rounder to Detroit to get rid of Snell's contract? I thought it was interesting they only save $4M this year, and the real savings is just getting out of his $12M player option for 2020-2021.  I think late first rounders tend to be the cost of doing business to get out of these overpriced midlevel contracts, but a little more immediate salary relief to go with it would have been nice.

Also, is this officially the end of this run of the Celtics? Whereas a guy like Morey sees all of his contracts as assets and liabilities, and never seems to lose an asset for free, Ainge is going to watch Kyrie and Horford walk, and are now left with just a package of middling picks they probably can't combine to move up even a handful of spots.

JWags85

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #770 on: June 20, 2019, 11:13:28 AM »
What ya'll think about the Bucks selling their first rounder to Detroit to get rid of Snell's contract? I thought it was interesting they only save $4M this year, and the real savings is just getting out of his $12M player option for 2020-2021.  I think late first rounders tend to be the cost of doing business to get out of these overpriced midlevel contracts, but a little more immediate salary relief to go with it would have been nice.

Also, is this officially the end of this run of the Celtics? Whereas a guy like Morey sees all of his contracts as assets and liabilities, and never seems to lose an asset for free, Ainge is going to watch Kyrie and Horford walk, and are now left with just a package of middling picks they probably can't combine to move up even a handful of spots.

Any savings they can get for Snell is a bonus.  He's never going to be a 6-7th man on a contending team.  His contract is atrocious.

I think the Celtics were done when they couldn't move all those assets to truly make a difference.  The Tatum-Fultz trade was a good bit of business, but otherwise he really just held his cards until they were worthless.  I think he was the victim of tampering in the AD scenario, but otherwise, he is the only one to blame for a surplus of assets and nothing happening.  Horford saw the writing on the wall and decided he needed to cash in or look for one more chance with a contender.

MUfan12

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #771 on: June 20, 2019, 11:18:09 AM »
What ya'll think about the Bucks selling their first rounder to Detroit to get rid of Snell's contract? I thought it was interesting they only save $4M this year, and the real savings is just getting out of his $12M player option for 2020-2021.  I think late first rounders tend to be the cost of doing business to get out of these overpriced midlevel contracts, but a little more immediate salary relief to go with it would have been nice.

They can stretch Leuer over 3 years to free up $6.5M more. Or flip his expiring in another deal.

I'm in no hurry to deal Ersan at this point. He plays his role well and is on a reasonable deal.

wadesworld

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #772 on: June 20, 2019, 11:42:24 AM »
They can stretch Leuer over 3 years to free up $6.5M more. Or flip his expiring in another deal.

I'm in no hurry to deal Ersan at this point. He plays his role well and is on a reasonable deal.

This is where I'm at.  For $7M/year, I want Ersan around.  I think he was a big loss for Philly.  The Bucks have more shooting to handle that loss, but I still don't think you find his value for $7M in the NBA.  He was playing outstanding before he broke his nose and missed some time this season, and was okay down the stretch of the season.

I don't understand why they picked up the last year of DJ Wilson's deal.  I know it's not some huge amount, and I know he's shown more than I ever thought he would, but he still will never play in the Playoffs for the Bucks.

Lazar's Headband

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #773 on: June 20, 2019, 01:18:05 PM »
The Celtics go into rebuild mode, with Tatum a nice starting point.  Now they have to tank and hope to earn high draft picks to surround Tatum with talent.

The Bucks really need to stop overpaying role players.  Delly, Henson, Snell, etc.  These contracts become liabilities and they have to part with assets to correct the mistake.

Pakuni

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Re: NBA Thread 2018-19
« Reply #774 on: June 20, 2019, 05:19:02 PM »
 Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
Minnesota has traded No. 11 and Dario Saric to Phoenix for the No. 6 pick in the draft, league source tells ESPN.

Minnesota wants a point guard, perhaps?