MLB hot stove discussion 2018/19 off season

[MUBurrow]

Tru Blew Brue Krew have ta make a move at #2 position. Woodant bee a shocka if Real joins his bud in MKE, aina?

There's definitely a fit there, and I'm sure the Crew is sniffing around. Personally, I would rather see them use the trade capital elsewhere, but that's because I am biased against paying a premium for catchers.  There seems to be more variability with hitting catchers than any other position. Not sure if that's because of the stress of the position or what. 

I'd rather Stearns add Lucroy or Wieters to the catching rotation on the cheap.  Giving up the compensatory picks to sign Grandal should be discounted out of hand. For what its worth, MLBTR projects Grandal to get $64M over 4 and Wilson Ramos to get $36M over 3. I would be shocked if either of those deals comes close to producing even value.

[Jockey]

I'm happy he is in as he was always one of my favorite players.  I would argue that the reason he never had an impact on the HOF ballot was because he was primarily a DH.  DH is a position.  It is a real thing.  And Harold was the first great DH. 

.........

While I disagree with you on Baines, there is one former Sox player that should be in the Hall. He was hands down a better hitter than Baines and its not ebven close.

I'm talking about Dick Allen. Maybe the best eligible player who is not in the Hall (sorry, Albert Belle).

Wondering how you feel about Allen.

Also, would be interested in 82's opinion since he had the opportunity to vote for Allen.

[buckchuckler]

While I disagree with you on Baines, there is one former Sox player that should be in the Hall. He was hands down a better hitter than Baines and its not ebven close.

I'm talking about Dick Allen. Maybe the best eligible player who is not in the Hall (sorry, Albert Belle).

Wondering how you feel about Allen.

Also, would be interested in 82's opinion since he had the opportunity to vote for Allen.

In so many ways he is the opposite of Baines.  While Baines didn't have the peaks of greatness, he was just good for 20 years.  His career was a plateau that never moved much that yielded some big totals, which are the only thing Allen is missing.

Allen on the other hand, certainly had the years of greatness.  And while he also lacked the valleys of performance, he didn't have the long lasting career of Baines.  There is little doubt that he was a more feared and dangerous hitter than Harold, and really than pretty much any of his peers.  I think the only thing keeping him out was missing a few more years.  Like Baines, I think he was hurt by positional ambiguity.  If he would have stuck at 3B, he would have been a no doubt HOF-er I think. 

Quite honestly, I don't have the same connection to Allen that I do to Baines for a couple reasons, first of all, he was on the Sox for just a few years (including his MVP caompaign), and his career was over before I was born.  So while I know the lore of Dick Allen, and I know he was the guy my Dad always compared Frank to, I never watched him play, while Baines was one of my favorites as a kid, so I certainly didn't have the  same emotional attachment.  Though if they were hitting back to back in a lineup, I'm not sure how I'd go.  Allen is certainly the more dangerous of the two, he was also the much more likely to K.  He K'd more than Baines, in 3500 fewer ABs.  I think it would depend entirely on the situation.

As for the statement "best player not in the HOF, well, that is very interesting.  Allen would certainly have a strong case there.  He certainly has the accolades and the hardware to back that up, as well as some pretty strong numbers.  The only other guy that comes to mind is Dale Murphy, whose numbers aren't quite as strong but had the 2 MVPs.  Very interesting indeed...

All in all, very difficult for me to compare them, since I just didn't have the opportunity to really experience Allen.

[buckchuckler]

Brewers have been linked to both Moustakas and Daniel Murphy.

[MU82]

While I disagree with you on Baines, there is one former Sox player that should be in the Hall. He was hands down a better hitter than Baines and its not ebven close.

I'm talking about Dick Allen. Maybe the best eligible player who is not in the Hall (sorry, Albert Belle).

Wondering how you feel about Allen.

Also, would be interested in 82's opinion since he had the opportunity to vote for Allen.

My first year as a Hall voter (1996) coincided with Allen's next-to-last year on the ballot. I could lie to you and say I voted for him, or I didn't vote for him, but honestly I do not remember if I did or didn't. It was a long time ago, and I didn't save my ballots.

Also, his career ended in 1977, when I was still in high school in Connecticut. I honestly don't remember him much as a ballplayer. I see his stats and I heard the stories. Sounds like he was a hell of a ballplayer and a very interesting character.

[SaveOD238]

My first year as a Hall voter (1996) coincided with Allen's next-to-last year on the ballot. I could lie to you and say I voted for him, or I didn't vote for him, but honestly I do not remember if I did or didn't. It was a long time ago, and I didn't save my ballots.

Also, his career ended in 1977, when I was still in high school in Connecticut. I honestly don't remember him much as a ballplayer. I see his stats and I heard the stories. Sounds like he was a hell of a ballplayer and a very interesting character.

Excuse me if I missed this story somewhere else, but how did you manage to become a Hall voter, 82?

[4everwarriors]

In Chicago, ya vote early and often, hey?

[MU82]

Excuse me if I missed this story somewhere else, but how did you manage to become a Hall voter, 82?

In a former life, I was a sportswriter.

[CTWarrior]

I'm happy he is in as he was always one of my favorite players.  I would argue that the reason he never had an impact on the HOF ballot was because he was primarily a DH.  DH is a position.  It is a real thing.  And Harold was the first great DH. 

He is 34th all time in RBI, 46th all time in hits, and 65th all time in HRs and basically pioneered a position.  He was a .290 hitter for over 11000 plate appearances.

He has more RBI than guys like Schmidt, Dawson, Stargell, McCovey and Killebrew.

The guy right in front of him on the hit list, is the Babe.  Behind him, you will find names like Robinson, Griffey Jr, Dawson, Chipper, Gehrig, Banks and Vlad.

While he isn't the best guy in the HOF, he is far from the worst.  His numbers fit in with some of the greatest hitters in the history of the game.  Those numbers, 2866 Hits, 384 HRS, 488 2B, 1628 RBIs, aren't out of place in the Hall of Fame. 

According to BBref, his 5 most similar hitters, are Tony Perez, Al Kaline, Dave Parker, Billy Williams and Dawson.  If you are keeping score, 4 of those are HOF-ers.  And really, none were known for their gloves.

I'm biased.  I completely admit it.  I am glad he is in.  He was a great hitter.  He was an All Star at age 40, and he did it putting up an OPS of .919, again --as a 40 year old.  That is unreal.  He was always one of my favorites.  Always a tough out and a great AB. 

Tip of the cap to Harold.

Harold Baines wasn't a great DH.  He only won one Silver Slugger, which means only once was he the best DH.

His career totals are solid, because he played 22 years.  He has a lot of RBIs but he only drove in 100 three times in 22 years.  He has a lot of hits but he never got 200 in a season and only got more than 175 once.  Never scored 90 runs (more than 80 only twice), never hit 30 HRs (hit more than 25 only once), reached 30 doubles only once.  Wasn't a good base runner.  Offered nothing on defense even when he could go out there.  Led the league in anything only once in his career (SLG).  He's a DH who wasn't a great hitter. 

He's a good hitter who lasted a long time.  He's a good player who had a wonderful career but nothing like a Hall of Fame career.

Dick Allen is a Hall of Famer in my book.  He's hit by a double whammy statistically in that he had a relatively short career and played during the worst period for offense in MLB history outside the deadball era so his numbers are less impressive.  He has 20 more career WAR than does Baines in 9 less seasons.  He's got an MVP.

[Pakuni]

White Sox add a reliable bottom-of-the-rotation stater in Ivan Nova. A bit of an upgrade from Shields, one could say, but only one year left on his (very reasonable) deal.

https://www.dailyherald.com/sports/20181211/white-sox-acquire-nova-in-trade-with-pirates

[buckchuckler]

White Sox add a reliable bottom-of-the-rotation stater in Ivan Nova. A bit of an upgrade from Shields, one could say, but only one year left on his (very reasonable) deal.

https://www.dailyherald.com/sports/20181211/white-sox-acquire-nova-in-trade-with-pirates

Yeah, a bit of a whatever move.  Needed someone to eat some innings.  Seems like a choice.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Harold Baines wasn't a great DH.  He only won one Silver Slugger, which means only once was he the best DH.

His career totals are solid, because he played 22 years.  He has a lot of RBIs but he only drove in 100 three times in 22 years.  He has a lot of hits but he never got 200 in a season and only got more than 175 once.  Never scored 90 runs (more than 80 only twice), never hit 30 HRs (hit more than 25 only once), reached 30 doubles only once.  Wasn't a good base runner.  Offered nothing on defense even when he could go out there.  Led the league in anything only once in his career (SLG).  He's a DH who wasn't a great hitter. 

He's a good hitter who lasted a long time.  He's a good player who had a wonderful career but nothing like a Hall of Fame career.

Dick Allen is a Hall of Famer in my book.  He's hit by a double whammy statistically in that he had a relatively short career and played during the worst period for offense in MLB history outside the deadball era so his numbers are less impressive.  He has 20 more career WAR than does Baines in 9 less seasons.  He's got an MVP.

I agree, he belongs in the Hall of Very Good

[MUBurrow]

Brewers make their first move, trading their competitive balance pick for three relatively affordable years of Alex Claudio (projects at $1.3M in arbitration this year). 

This is an interesting move because it sets the market for trading competitive balance picks, no?  I think teams have only been able to do that for a few years, and I'm not aware of any other "1 pick for 1 player" straight up deals.  The pick was the 39th overall in the upcoming draft.

[GB Warrior]

Brewers make their first move, trading their competitive balance pick for three relatively affordable years of Alex Claudio (projects at $1.3M in arbitration this year). 

This is an interesting move because it sets the market for trading competitive balance picks, no?  I think teams have only been able to do that for a few years, and I'm not aware of any other "1 pick for 1 player" straight up deals.  The pick was the 39th overall in the upcoming draft.

At face, it felt like a lot for a LOOGY. But he's been very good in that role and he has a lot of team control. That pick would likely not be MLB ready for 4+ years; Claudio has 3 years of control.

Stearns is very aware what this team's window is

[jsglow]

At face, it felt like a lot for a LOOGY. But he's been very good in that role and he has a lot of team control. That pick would likely not be MLB ready for 4+ years; Claudio has 3 years of control.

Stearns is very aware what this team's window is

And recall that Stearns didn't tender a couple lefties.

[Dish]

 

[buckchuckler]

You've been saying for a year they were gonna pull out all the stops. 

[RushmoreAcademy]

Claudio is s very smart pick up.  Very reasonable deal.

[Pakuni]

Well, sacrificing Alex Call to land Machdado and/or Grandal would be a small price to pay.

[JWags85]

The old Wally Ellenson strategy from Rick Hahn.

[MUBurrow]

Claudio is s very smart pick up.  Very reasonable deal.

I certainly have no objection, though both glow and MLBTR made some interesting points. To glow's point, Claudio has a very similar contract situation to Jennings and Cedeno (Claudio has two extra years of team control), so Stearns must think Claudio +2 years  is "40th overall pick in the draft better" than those guys.

MLBTR made the point that experienced college relievers who can be pretty close to MLB ready will be available in the compensatory rounds. With the extra control those options would bring, again, Stearns must think Claudio is head and shoulders better.

[Lennys Tap]

The old Wally Ellenson strategy from Rick Hahn.

5 years of Grandal + 10 years of Machado > 1 year of Henry.

[buckchuckler]

5 years of Grandal + 10 years of Machado > 1 year of Henry.

Not sure Grandal is in the plans, they signed McCann, and have Castillo, not that either are great, but they also have Zavala and Collins in the wings, and Grandal would cost a draft pick.

And while I liked Call, he as what 8th on the Sox minor league OF depth chart?  It would have been legitimately difficult to get him ABs this year in Birmingham or Charlotte. 

Also in the catching market, it seems like the Marlins may have over played their hands, as it looks like the most aggressive suitor for Realmuto (the Mets) have moved on to Wilson Ramos.  It also sounds like the Braves are out because of the Marlins demands, this may end up working in the Brewers favor, as they are interested and competitors keep dropping out. 

[dgies9156]

Dick Allen won't be HOF. Ever.

I remember him well as a Phillie, Cardinal and Dodger. I believe he also played for the White Sox, but I'm old enough I remember him more as a Phillie.

He certainly has the creds for the Hall of fame but he'll never get there. What people do not understand about Dick Allen was that he was extremely outspoken in his Phillie days. He alienated people and in a period where civil rights was far from a foregone conclusion, Allen did not get the best press in the world. That press followed him throughout his career.

Allen also played for crappy teams for the bulk of his career. The Phillies in the 1960s categorically stank. The 1970 St. Louis Cardinals were a transitional club in which the fading remnants of their 1964 and 1967 World Championships and 1968 National League Championship were a shadow of their former selves. The early 1970s Dodgers were pre-Steve Garvey, Davey Lopes, Ron Cey and Bill Russell and were an up-and-coming shadow against the Big Red Machine teams. And the Sox just stank. It's hard for any great player on bad teams to be noticed for the Hall.

Nope, Dick/Richie Allen will not be an HOFer.

P.S. -- How about that Goldschmidt trade, Cub fans. There's a rather nasty redbird in your rear view mirror now and he's pretty angry!

[Pakuni]

Not sure Grandal is in the plans, they signed McCann, and have Castillo, not that either are great, but they also have Zavala and Collins in the wings, and Grandal would cost a draft pick.

And while I liked Call, he as what 8th on the Sox minor league OF depth chart?  It would have been legitimately difficult to get him ABs this year in Birmingham or Charlotte. 

Also in the catching market, it seems like the Marlins may have over played their hands, as it looks like the most aggressive suitor for Realmuto (the Mets) have moved on to Wilson Ramos.  It also sounds like the Braves are out because of the Marlins demands, this may end up working in the Brewers favor, as they are interested and competitors keep dropping out.

There have always been legit questions about Collins remaining behind the plate and he's done little in the minors so far to answer those. His future may be at 1B. McCann is a backup. Zavala has some upside, but I don't see him as nearly enough of a sure thing that you pass on Grandal, if you can get him for a reasonable deal.

As for Call ... 8th on the depth chart might be generous. Jiminez, Robert, Rutherford, Gonzalez, Adolfo, Walker, Basabe, Weaver and Booker, and that's not including mid 20s AAA/AAAA guys like Thompson, Cordell, Engel, Delmonico and Tilson, etc.