MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: ZiggysFryBoy on October 20, 2018, 10:40:52 PM
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Discuss.
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Harper to the cubs being an awful decision hot take!
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I would rather the Cubs not sign Machado than sign Harper.
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Very interested to see what the Brewers rotation will look like. Woody, Burnes, Nelson, Chacin, Chase, Davies, Peralta. Then you have Suter at some point mid season. I’d hope Miley is back. Don’t think Gio is back.
My hope is you go into the season with Nelson, Chacin, Woody, Burnes, and Miley as your starting rotation. There is some depth there, but not sure you can get much for Chase or Davies on the trade market. I’d keep Guerra in the pen and I think I might turn Peralta into a reliever too. Not sure he ever really figures out how to pitch deep into games. Let him play Burnes’s role out of the pen. Strikeout stuff but struggles to pitch to contact. High pitch counts.
If second half Aguilar is who he really is that might be the spot I’d pick to spend money on for the Brewers. Don’t think Moose is back but if so I’d be tempted to just move Shaw to 1B. Catcher and 2B should be improved on.
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Heyward has a player option. Rumor is he will decline it. Let's hope so.
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Feel good about the Brewers arms going into next year. Could use some upgrading at 2B, C, and possibly 1B (not sold on Aguilar).
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Heyward has a player option. Rumor is he will decline it. Let's hope so.
It'd be really stupid on his part unless he wants out more then he wants money.
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Harper to the cubs being an awful decision hot take!
We are not signing Harper, he will go to the Yankees. Get rid of Russell. Machado would do nicely, but it is easy to hate him. With the Cubs new TV deal coming, a lot of money to spend on the horizon. Resign Hamels. Fix Chatwood, get him consistent. Pray Darvish does something.
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I'll be happy to see Schoop and Cedeno leave town. I suspect Moose will be gone to someone that will pay a lot more than the Brewers will, which is also fine. He was a veteran presence, but otherwise just a guy. Might not be room for Gio. Hope they can keep Miley and Soria.
Shaw's flexibility means you can find either an upgrade at 3B or 2B. I think Arcia is over the hump and they are set at SS. If Woodruff and Burnes both move to the rotation, do they have any more power arms ready to come up and fill in the bullpen?
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Aren't we stuck with Schoop next year? I thought he had one more year on his deal. Is there a solid trade market for him?
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Schoop is basically under control for next year. (One more arbitration year.) I would guess that he stays in Milwaukee and starts at 2B with Shaw moving back to 3B. Unless they enter free agency for someone like DJ LeMahieu or Asdrubal Cabrera, I don't see what other option they have unless they think Perez is a legit everyday player.
They have a couple real good infield prospects who are probably each a year away from the majors, unless they start the year real hot. (Keston Hiura who was in AA last year, and Mauricio Dubon who was at AAA but missed most of the year due to injury.)
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Schoop is basically under control for next year. (One more arbitration year.) I would guess that he stays in Milwaukee and starts at 2B with Shaw moving back to 3B. Unless they enter free agency for someone like DJ LeMahieu or Asdrubal Cabrera, I don't see what other option they have unless they think Perez is a legit everyday player.
They have a couple real good infield prospects who are probably each a year away from the majors, unless they start the year real hot. (Keston Hiura who was in AA last year, and Mauricio Dubon who was at AAA but missed most of the year due to injury.)
Thanks for the refresher Sultan. I agree that Schoop probably plays 2B next year. I'd really like to sign Moose and he seems to like it here. But the price might be too high and they will want room for Hiura/Dubon probably no later than '20.
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Miley is the perfect fit for Miller Park. If there's a deal for 2-3 years that looks anything like Chacin's I'd sign him in a heartbeat. Either way, he seems like a real good guy so I'm pleased that he's about to get paid.
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Moose is theoretically under contract next year - a $15M mutual option that the Brewers won't pick up. But IMO I think the only way they resign of they just don't think Schoop has it. I would think Shaw should be at 3B though. He doesn't have great range as a 2B.
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Bullpen arms - good ones -considering the Brewers style of play.
Burnes and Woodruff will be in the rotation so they will need to be replaced in the pen.
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Moose is theoretically under contract next year - a $15M mutual option that the Brewers won't pick up. But IMO I think the only way they resign of they just don't think Schoop has it. I would think Shaw should be at 3B though. He doesn't have great range as a 2B.
Yeah, $15 is too much. And no doubt Shaw is better at third but I do remember all the Cubs fans on here going insane saying Shaw at 2nd would never work. NOT. He was 'fine' in the playoff run.
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Moose is theoretically under contract next year - a $15M mutual option that the Brewers won't pick up. But IMO I think the only way they resign of they just don't think Schoop has it. I would think Shaw should be at 3B though. He doesn't have great range as a 2B.
I wouldn't be so certain that they won't pick up Moose's option. Stearns has said multiple times that when he makes acquisitions he wants guys with years of team control. We can control Moose for next year, so I imagine we will.
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Well Moose isn’t necessarily under Brewers’ control. The option is mutual. I understand what you are saying though.
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Moose couldn’t find a long term deal after last season. He might not be able to this offseason either. $15M wouldn’t be a bad thing for him for next year, and for the Brewers they can eat big money for a single year.
I think Schoop will be just fine. He was awful no doubt, but he’s a very good player. Give him an offseason and have him coming into the organization at the start of the year and he’ll produce.
I’d be cool with having Moose the everyday 3B and Shaw playing some days at 1B and some days at 2B.
But my guess would be Moose does sign elsewhere and Shaw moves back to 3B.
Brewers will need to add some bench players. Santana, Keon, Hernan. Will be interesting to see who the rookies are next year. And if Stearns can find any castoffs this year that can break into the everyday lineup.
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One position I again think we're fine at is SS. Credit to Arcia for going down and working. He needs to spend the offseason really dialing it in at the plate. He's a damn good player if he can give us .250-265 every year.
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Discuss.
Man, the carcass is still warm.
Wait till next year!
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Man, the carcass is still warm.
Wait till next year!
Nah, I probably won't watch a minute of the WS.
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Very interested to see what the Brewers rotation will look like. Woody, Burnes, Nelson, Chacin, Chase, Davies, Peralta. Then you have Suter at some point mid season. I’d hope Miley is back. Don’t think Gio is back.
My hope is you go into the season with Nelson, Chacin, Woody, Burnes, and Miley as your starting rotation. There is some depth there, but not sure you can get much for Chase or Davies on the trade market. I’d keep Guerra in the pen and I think I might turn Peralta into a reliever too. Not sure he ever really figures out how to pitch deep into games. Let him play Burnes’s role out of the pen. Strikeout stuff but struggles to pitch to contact. High pitch counts.
If second half Aguilar is who he really is that might be the spot I’d pick to spend money on for the Brewers. Don’t think Moose is back but if so I’d be tempted to just move Shaw to 1B. Catcher and 2B should be improved on.
#startersnomatta.
Brewers will use 6-9 relievers every game. Save big $$ cuz one-inning pitchers are a lot cheaper than starters.
Starting pitchers are so ... 2017.
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Heyward has a player option. Rumor is he will decline it. Let's hope so.
This makes zero sense unless Heyward wants to give up $50 million+ to help the Cubs. He's a good dude but he's not that good of a dude.
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The offseason will be extremely interesting for the Cubs.
I assume they pick up Hamels' option and go into 2019 with a rotation of Hamels, Lester, Hendricks, Quintana, and Darvish with Smyly, Montgomery, and maybe Chatwood as depth.
In terms of the pen, you can't count on Morrow to be healthy so they'll need to add someone else that can potentially close. They'll also need to add a very good lefty. Morrow, Strop, Cishek and Edwards should be back so there's a solid base there for a good pen but some work needs to be done.
What happens on offense will be the most fascinating. The key is getting Bryant health and back to his usual level of production. Rizzo, Baez and Contreras will be back. Getting Contreras back on track will be key.
Zobrist will be back in a utility role in the last year of his contract and I can't see Heyward opting out. Can the Cubs eat enough of Heyward's deal for another team to trade for him? Doubtful but I assume they'll try.
I assume Russell will be let go. I'd also be surprised if all of Schwarber, Happ, and Almora will be back.
The Cubs will be in on Harper and Machado. It won't surprise me if they get one or neither. Aside from the core 4 of Bryant, Rizzo, Baez, and Contreras there will definitely be some changes.
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The offseason will be extremely interesting for the Cubs.
I assume they pick up Hamels' option and go into 2019 with a rotation of Hamels, Lester, Hendricks, Quintana, and Darvish with Smyly, Montgomery, and maybe Chatwood as depth.
If we don't pick up Hamels we deserve our fate.
Zobrist will be back in a utility role in the last year of his contract and I can't see Heyward opting out. Can the Cubs eat enough of Heyward's deal for another team to trade for him? Doubtful but I assume they'll try.
Money not an issue with new television deal.
I assume Russell will be let go. I'd also be surprised if all of Schwarber, Happ, and Almora will be back.
Yes. Agree, but think 2 of 3 will.
The Cubs will be in on Harper and Machado. It won't surprise me if they get one or neither. Aside from the core 4 of Bryant, Rizzo, Baez, and Contreras there will definitely be some changes.
Cannot see Harper here. Machado is dirty and would be difficult to cheer for as I do not care for his antics.
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The offseason will be extremely interesting for the Cubs.
I assume they pick up Hamels' option and go into 2019 with a rotation of Hamels, Lester, Hendricks, Quintana, and Darvish with Smyly, Montgomery, and maybe Chatwood as depth.
In terms of the pen, you can't count on Morrow to be healthy so they'll need to add someone else that can potentially close. They'll also need to add a very good lefty. Morrow, Strop, Cishek and Edwards should be back so there's a solid base there for a good pen but some work needs to be done.
What happens on offense will be the most fascinating. The key is getting Bryant health and back to his usual love of production. Rizzo, Baez and Contreras will be back. Getting Contreras back on track will be key.
Zobrist will be back in a utility role in the last year of his contract and I can't see Heyward opting out. Can the Cubs eat enough of Heyward's deal for another team to trade for him? Doubtful but I assume they'll try.
I assume Russell will be let go. I'd also be surprised if all of Schwarber, Happ, and Almora will be back.
The Cubs will be in on Harper and Machado. It won't surprise me if they get one or neither. Aside from the core 4 of Bryant, Rizzo, Baez, and Contreras there will definitely be some changes.
Agree with all of this.
If the Cubs were to end up with Machado, I think Bryant becomes the everyday left fielder with Baez at third.
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Aren't we stuck with Schoop next year? I thought he had one more year on his deal. Is there a solid trade market for him?
I wouldn't be surprised to see him non-tendered. He is projected to make somewhere around 10 mil in arbitration.
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I wouldn't be surprised to see him non-tendered. He is projected to make somewhere around 10 mil in arbitration.
So why do you think it will be that high?
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Money not an issue with new television deal.
If you believe that, well, you probably don't have a good understanding of humanity.
Also it may cost more than money. Let's say the Cubs eat 56 Million on Heyward. That leaves 50. That is still a significant risk. The Cubs may have to throw in a fairly decent prospect to make it more alluring.
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Machado is dirty and would be difficult to cheer for as I do not care for his antics.
Interesting. In a different thread (that had nothing to do with baseball), you said:
Retool a few areas, slot Machado at short, avoid the injury bug and we are right there.
You didn't seem the least bit distressed about the possibility of slotting the dirty douche at short so "we" could be "right there."
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If you believe that, well, you probably don't have a good understanding of humanity.
Also it may cost more than money. Let's say the Cubs eat 56 Million on Heyward. That leaves 50. That is still a significant risk. The Cubs may have to throw in a fairly decent prospect to make it more alluring.
In the context of whether they can afford it or not, they will have more wiggle room due to the new TV situation. I'm not advocating for it, only explaining there is a large pot of gold coming that they didn't have before. If Theo and management decide they want to play in the luxury tax space they can, though to my knowledge they have not done so in the past. The new deal starts after next season, but they will be able to back load some contracts to accommodate. https://www.cubsinsider.com/2018/08/28/new-tv-deal-could-earn-cubs-additional-100-million-in-annual-revenue/
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Interesting. In a different thread (that had nothing to do with baseball), you said:
Retool a few areas, slot Machado at short, avoid the injury bug and we are right there.
You didn't seem the least bit distressed about the possibility of slotting the dirty douche at short so "we" could be "right there."
I also said this (below) before I said what you quoted me on. They are called continuous comments, in multiple responses. Feel free to put them together to understand a person's complete thought process, rather than isolating them as if they are sound bytes. Thank you.
We are not signing Harper, he will go to the Yankees. Get rid of Russell. Machado would do nicely, but it is easy to hate him. With the Cubs new TV deal coming, a lot of money to spend on the horizon. Resign Hamels. Fix Chatwood, get him consistent. Pray Darvish does something.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=56700.msg1047636#msg1047636
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Agree with all of this.
If the Cubs were to end up with Machado, I think Bryant becomes the everyday left fielder with Baez at third.
I’d keep Javy at short and play Machado at 3B. If it wasn’t for the Almora connection, I don’t see the Cubs FO going for Machado. The comments after he didn’t run out the grounder were interesting, “that’s just me” or something to that effect. Contrast that to the reaction within the team after Willson didn’t run out the 400 foot fly ball, big difference.
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I’d keep Javy at short and play Machado at 3B. If it wasn’t for the Almora connection, I don’t see the Cubs FO going for Machado. The comments after he didn’t run out the grounder were interesting, “that’s just me” or something to that effect. Contrast that to the reaction within the team after Willson didn’t run out the 400 foot fly ball, big difference.
Manny has said he wants to play short, so I assume wherever he lands, that's where he will play. I would much rather have Javy at short as you say but I don't know if Manny will play third.
I think the connection also comes from the Cubs needing an infielder with Addy likely on the way out.
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Manny has said he wants to play short, so I assume wherever he lands, that's where he will play. I would much rather have Javy at short as you say but I don't know if Manny will play third.
I think the connection also comes from the Cubs needing an infielder with Addy likely on the way out.
If the team that will pay him the most wants him at 3rd, he will play 3rd. I think playing SS this year was a move to show teams that he can play either to increase his market and value.
Also with Bryant, Baez, Zobrist, Happ and Bote, it is interesting to see you say the Cubs need an infielder.
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I also said this (below) before I said what you quoted me on. They are called continuous comments, in multiple responses. Feel free to put them together to understand a person's complete thought process, rather than isolating them as if they are sound bytes. Thank you.
We are not signing Harper, he will go to the Yankees. Get rid of Russell. Machado would do nicely, but it is easy to hate him. With the Cubs new TV deal coming, a lot of money to spend on the horizon. Resign Hamels. Fix Chatwood, get him consistent. Pray Darvish does something.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=56700.msg1047636#msg1047636
Bottom line: You will be perfectly happy to see "us" sign a player who maliciously tries to injure opponents.
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If the team that will pay him the most wants him at 3rd, he will play 3rd. I think playing SS this year was a move to show teams that he can play either to increase his market and value.
Also with Bryant, Baez, Zobrist, Happ and Bote, it is interesting to see you say the Cubs need an infielder.
Zobrist turns 38 next season, will be in the last year of his contract, and is not a full-time player any longer.
Bote struggled mightily after the league adjusted to him and is probably best served in a utility role.
Happ primarily played OF. He started 12 games at 3rd, primarily due to Bryant's injury. He started two games at 1B and zero at 2nd.
Assuming Bryant at 3rd, Baez at SS, and Russell gone the team definitely needs another IF.
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Addie is a free agent if they let him walk, and he couldn't have lower trade value right now. I think the Cubs will go to arbitration with him and look to trade him around the All Star break. If he gets his life and game in order, maybe they stay with him but letting him walk or trade him for nothing or little seems unwise from a club perspective.
The Cubs need a leadoff man. It's either play Almora everyday or trade him. They also need a veteran back-up catcher.
Their starting pitching is a cluster. Lester, Hendricks and Q are set but Yu, Monty, Smyly, Chits are all major question marks as starters. Lester is getting old so banking on a repeat season like 2018 is iffy. I think Theo takes on Cole then, moves Monty to the pen (he won't like it but he really didn't prove himself this season). Chatwood will have to be moved.
Like the infield, the outfield needs more stability and everyday power versus Joe's platoon game. I think that is why the Cubs go after Harper. Whether Hey opts out (hard to believe he would but he feels he isn't being played correctly with Joe's rotations in his prime) or traded, I think he is gone. Schwarbs and Happ will be kept but the right offer could entice the Cubs to package them. But, that would mean they would lose a lot of left handed bats. Maybe Murphy is kept around as a result.
The Cubs will have to eat some salary and take on some, but they need more everyday cornerstones in their line-up even though Joe loves the depth game. On starting and bullpen, they have their fingers crossed on an aging and unhealthy staff. Theo and Jed have made a lot of roster mistakes here so I am hoping hubris is in their vocabulary.
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Zobrist turns 38 next season, will be in the last year of his contract, and is not a full-time player any longer.
Bote struggled mightily after the league adjusted to him and is probably best served in a utility role.
Happ primarily played OF. He started 12 games at 3rd, primarily due to Bryant's injury. He started two games at 1B and zero at 2nd.
Assuming Bryant at 3rd, Baez at SS, and Russell gone the team definitely needs another IF.
Took the words out of my mouth. Zobrist isn't part of a mid or long term plan. Bote has shown flashes but its too early to see what he truly has. I think Happ becomes the "new Zobrist" and you slot him in the OF or 2B/1B if needed, but I don't think you decide he's your 2B going forward.
Makes a ton of sense for the Cubs to find a good everyday SS or 2B and move Javy to the other. While he can certainly play it, Titan's suggestion of moving to Javy to 3B really minimizes his defensive prowess IMO.
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Moose couldn’t find a long term deal after last season. He might not be able to this offseason either. $15M wouldn’t be a bad thing for him for next year, and for the Brewers they can eat big money for a single year.
I think Schoop will be just fine. He was awful no doubt, but he’s a very good player. Give him an offseason and have him coming into the organization at the start of the year and he’ll produce.
I’d be cool with having Moose the everyday 3B and Shaw playing some days at 1B and some days at 2B.
But my guess would be Moose does sign elsewhere and Shaw moves back to 3B.
Brewers will need to add some bench players. Santana, Keon, Hernan. Will be interesting to see who the rookies are next year. And if Stearns can find any castoffs this year that can break into the everyday lineup.
I agree with most of this, except I'm bearish on Schoop. Very little chance he's not the opening day starting 2B, though. If nothing else, I think the sunk cost fallacy keeps the Crew invested in him until at least next year's trade deadline. At most, Stearns adds a veteran bench guy to steal some ABs.
I would like to see one or both of Matt Adams and/or Asdrubal Cabrera. Adams could platoon at 1B with Aguilar, maybe play for Braun a little; Asdrubal switch hits but is better from the right side, meaning he could play 3B for Shaw vs left handers or play for Schoop at 2B hitting from the left side.
With all the young arms coming around and Nelson back, I don't think the Brewers spend big on pitching, but I would be a fan of overpaying if necessary for a middling 150+ IP guy to keep all the pen and young arms fresh - esp with all the extra playoff innings. Maybe something of the Derek Holland, James Shields, Ervin Santana vintage.
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The Cubs need a leadoff man. It's either play Almora everyday or trade him. They also need a veteran back-up catcher.
Almora does best when Joe plays him in certain matchups. As a everyday player he starts to decline.
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Almora does best when Joe plays him in certain matchups. As a everyday player he starts to decline.
If he isn't an everyday player, then time to move him. The Cubs have missed that Fowler guy (but not Fowler).
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Zobrist turns 38 next season, will be in the last year of his contract, and is not a full-time player any longer.
Bote struggled mightily after the league adjusted to him and is probably best served in a utility role.
Happ primarily played OF. He started 12 games at 3rd, primarily due to Bryant's injury. He started two games at 1B and zero at 2nd.
Assuming Bryant at 3rd, Baez at SS, and Russell gone the team definitely needs another IF.
Didn't Happ play IF all through the minors? I thought he was drafted as a 2B and played OF at the big league level because of need and the Cubs full infield more than anything.
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White Sox sign Eloy's little brother, Enoy.
Which makes me wonder if there's a middle brother named Emoy.
https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/white-sox/white-sox-sign-enoy-jimenez-17-year-old-brother-eloy-jimenez
Oh, and don't sleep on the Phils for Bryce Harper. Big market team that really needs to make a splash and has plenty of money to spend.
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Makes a ton of sense for the Cubs to find a good everyday SS or 2B and move Javy to the other. While he can certainly play it, Titan's suggestion of moving to Javy to 3B really minimizes his defensive prowess IMO.
I completely agree. Javy is ideal at short. But if Manny is there I'd prefer Javy at third over second because of his arm.
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We are not signing Harper, he will go to the Yankees. Get rid of Russell. Machado would do nicely, but it is easy to hate him. With the Cubs new TV deal coming, a lot of money to spend on the horizon. Resign Hamels. Fix Chatwood, get him consistent. Pray Darvish does something.
Yankees are not signing Harper. They already have Judge & Stanton. And he'll cost more than they want to spend. They are still trying to keep payroll down.
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Cubs currently have over 131 million committed for next season. That is not including arbitration numbers for Bryant, Baez, Hendricks, Montgomery and Schwarber (MLBTR projects the Cubs arbitration players to make 40.1 Million, thought that includes 4.3 for Russell.) It also does not include any pre-arb guys like Almora and Contreras who will likely get raises. It also only includes the buy out for Quintana, so another 9.5 for him puts the Cubs over 140. It doesn't include anything for Hamels, so 6 for the buyout (did Texas cover that?) or 20 for the option. Obviously that puts them over 160 if they take the option. That also factors in the 500K buyout for Strop, who seems like a no brainer at 6.25 so add in another 5.7. Factor in the arb guys, minus Russell and they are already over 200 in salary for next season where they stand right now.
Trading guys like Happ or Schwarber would only move about 5 million. I have a hard time seeing anyone taking on Heyward without the Cubs taking on an insane amount of that deal. Guys like Darvish and Chatwood seem unmovable entirely.
Signing Machado or Harper would certainly put them in the area of 240 without some significant moves (the projected luxury tax is 20% of every dollar over 206, so about 7mil). That would be the highest It seems like an onerous task, not impossible, but other teams have a much easier path. Especially if Machado and Harper sign early (the best players usually do) the Cubs have a lot to get done before then.
Or maybe the money really is no issue and the Cubs will blow past 240 without hesitation. Certainly possible.
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Cubs currently have over 131 million committed for next season. That is not including arbitration numbers for Bryant, Baez, Hendricks, Montgomery and Schwarber (MLBTR projects the Cubs arbitration players to make 40.1 Million, thought that includes 4.3 for Russell.) It also does not include any pre-arb guys like Almora and Contreras who will likely get raises. It also only includes the buy out for Quintana, so another 9.5 for him puts the Cubs over 140. It doesn't include anything for Hamels, so 6 for the buyout (did Texas cover that?) or 20 for the option. Obviously that puts them over 160 if they take the option. That also factors in the 500K buyout for Strop, who seems like a no brainer at 6.25 so add in another 5.7. Factor in the arb guys, minus Russell and they are already over 200 in salary for next season where they stand right now.
Trading guys like Happ or Schwarber would only move about 5 million. I have a hard time seeing anyone taking on Heyward without the Cubs taking on an insane amount of that deal. Guys like Darvish and Chatwood seem unmovable entirely.
Maybe money is no issue, but signing Machado or Harper would certainly put them in the area of 240 without some significant moves. It seems like an onerous task, not impossible, but other teams have a much easier path. Especially if Machado and Harper sign early (the best players usually do) the Cubs have a lot to get done before then.
Cubs narrowly avoided the luxury tax last season and will have a tough time getting under it next year even without signing Harper or Machado.
A $240 million payroll like the one you're talking about would mean they're paying an additional 20 percent (so $48 million) and then 30 percent the year after that ($72 million). Are the Ricketts really willing to go there?
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Oh, and don't sleep on the Phils for Bryce Harper. Big market team that really needs to make a splash and has plenty of money to spend.
Yep, I think they will be among the favs in both the Harper and Machado sweepstakes.
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Cubs narrowly avoided the luxury tax last season and will have a tough time getting under it next year even without signing Harper or Machado.
A $240 million payroll like the one you're talking about would mean they're paying an additional 20 percent (so $48 million) and then 30 percent the year after that ($72 million). Are the Ricketts really willing to go there?
Could be wrong here, but I believe they only pay the tax on the amount they are over. So they would pay the tax on 240, but on about 32. I think...
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Could be wrong here, but I believe they only pay the tax on the amount they are over. So they would pay the tax on 240, but on about 32. I think...
That's right, you pay tax on the overages - 20% in year one, then 30% in year two, then 50% if you're in the tax 3+ consecutive years. But there are also surtaxes based on how far over the threshold you are. If you're more than $20M over, you pay an additional 12%, and if your'e more than $40M over you pay an additional 42.5-45%. Here's a pretty good summary of how it works and the thresholds for the next couple years - http://m.mlb.com/glossary/transactions/competitive-balance-tax (http://m.mlb.com/glossary/transactions/competitive-balance-tax)
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Internal middle infield options:
1. Bote’s bat obviously tailed off, but his defense was excellent and I heard somewhere this summer he can play 2B and SS pretty well too.
2. Love to see Zach Short get a chance, a FanGraphs favorite.
3. I also read Nico Horner might be in AA to start the year, with possibility to be in MLB by the end of next year.
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Could be wrong here, but I believe they only pay the tax on the amount they are over. So they would pay the tax on 240, but on about 32. I think...
My bad.
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So why do you think it will be that high?
He made $8.5m this year.
It will be at least $10 m next year. That's the way arbitration works.
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He made $8.5m this year.
It will be at least $10 m next year. That's the way arbitration works.
OK, I must have had his 2017 contract in my head instead. Thanks.
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Addie is a free agent if they let him walk, and he couldn't have lower trade value right now. I think the Cubs will go to arbitration with him and look to trade him around the All Star break. If he gets his life and game in order, maybe they stay with him but letting him walk or trade him for nothing or little seems unwise from a club perspective.
The Cubs need a leadoff man. It's either play Almora everyday or trade him. They also need a veteran back-up catcher.
Their starting pitching is a cluster. Lester, Hendricks and Q are set but Yu, Monty, Smyly, Chits are all major question marks as starters. Lester is getting old so banking on a repeat season like 2018 is iffy. I think Theo takes on Cole then, moves Monty to the pen (he won't like it but he really didn't prove himself this season). Chatwood will have to be moved.
Like the infield, the outfield needs more stability and everyday power versus Joe's platoon game. I think that is why the Cubs go after Harper. Whether Hey opts out (hard to believe he would but he feels he isn't being played correctly with Joe's rotations in his prime) or traded, I think he is gone. Schwarbs and Happ will be kept but the right offer could entice the Cubs to package them. But, that would mean they would lose a lot of left handed bats. Maybe Murphy is kept around as a result.
The Cubs will have to eat some salary and take on some, but they need more everyday cornerstones in their line-up even though Joe loves the depth game. On starting and bullpen, they have their fingers crossed on an aging and unhealthy staff. Theo and Jed have made a lot of roster mistakes here so I am hoping hubris is in their vocabulary.
Murphy won't be brought back.
The need for a leadoff hitter is hugely exaggerated. I believe the Cubs had the highest OBP from the leadoff spot in the NL last year.
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Murphy won't be brought back.
The need for a leadoff hitter is hugely exaggerated. I believe the Cubs had the highest OBP from the leadoff spot in the NL last year.
Murphy would need to agree to a step down at his age and the Russell situation. But it's not out of the question but it would be a late sign like Fowler if no one else bites.
I disagree on the lead-off. They had to put Rizzo in there for a good chunk of the summer which with KB out caused a very unbalanced lineup. It was great for lead-off OBP but not team OBS+. Look at the Brewers top of the order lineup for balance.
I like Almora a lot there but as a high first rounder, he has to be an everyday player or it's time to move on when he has trade value.
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Also keep in mind the current CBA expires in 2021 at which time it's possible a whole new system is put into place.
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Murphy would need to agree to a step down at his age and the Russell situation. But it's not out of the question but it would be a late sign like Fowler if no one else bites.
I disagree on the lead-off. They had to put Rizzo in there for a good chunk of the summer which with KB out caused a very unbalanced lineup. It was great for lead-off OBP but not team OBS+. Look at the Brewers top of the order lineup for balance.
I like Almora a lot there but as a high first rounder, he has to be an everyday player or it's time to move on when he has trade value.
I'm fine with Almora batting leadoff vs. LHP but he's abysmal vs. RHP. His .OBP against lefties is .340, which is solid but certainly not great. Against righties it's a terrible .315. He also had a .267 OBP and .547 OPS post All Star break. He was really, really bad in the 2nd half and if he doesn't become more selective he's not going to improve.
Honestly, I'm not sure how much trade value he actually has. Right now he's a good defensively OF but more of a platoon guy offensively.
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Cubs narrowly avoided the luxury tax last season and will have a tough time getting under it next year even without signing Harper or Machado.
A $240 million payroll like the one you're talking about would mean they're paying an additional 20 percent (so $48 million) and then 30 percent the year after that ($72 million). Are the Ricketts really willing to go there?
I think the Cubs purposefully stayed under the tax last season with the knowledge they we're likely to go over it this season and next season.
I don't think money will be an issue, especially with the new tv deal coming. Their planning will revolve around avoiding penalties where they lose draft picks, etc. I'm not sure of the details of when that would kick in.
Lester's contract is up after 2020. Quintana becomes a free agent after 2020, assuming the Cubs pick up his options the next two years. Chatwood's contract is up after 2020.
Assuming there are no extensions, Rizzo, Bryant, Baez, and Hendricks become free agents after 2021.
There will be a lot of big name, expensive players hitting free agency over those two years. Unfortunately, Darvish and Heyward will still account for about $40 million total in 22 and 23 (although I still believe Darvish can be productive in the coming seasons).
The Cubs are going to have to develop some cheap starting pitching, something they haven't been able to do in Epstein's 7 years.
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So why do you think it will be that high?
Not me. MLBtraderumors has a guy that does it every year. Not sure how they arrive at their numbers but they are usually pretty close.
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Bottom line: You will be perfectly happy to see "us" sign a player who maliciously tries to injure opponents.
Bottom line, he is a very good player that I don't care for. If we do sign him, my hope is we can get to his head and change some of things he does. I believe in reformation and a few chances in life, not totally throwing people on the trash pile. I didn't realize you were such a hardliner.
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Anybody else literally LOL every time Chicos talks about the Cubs? "Us" and "we."
You convinced us! Definitely NOT chicos. Couldn't be. His "us" is the Angels.
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Bottom line, he is a very good player that I don't care for. If we do sign him, my hope is we can get to his head and change some of things he does. I believe in reformation and a few chances in life, not totally throwing people on the trash pile. I didn't realize you were such a hardliner.
Not a hardliner at all, cubbiechicos. If it was once, even twice, I'd be like, "Maybe he's misunderstood." He's a dirty SOB who deliberately tries to injure opponents. It's a multi-year pattern.
But I understand what it means to be a fan. GS Warriors fans love Draymond even though his dirty play cost the Warriors a championship (obviously, he helped them win three others). Bulls fans, by and large, loved Rodman. Duke fans loved Grayson Allen and before him Christian Laettner. And just about all Cubbie fans I know justified the addition of Chapman. I get it.
It will be interesting to see what happens in Cubbieland if "you" sign him and he doesn't run out grounders because "that's not my thing." Especially if he is slumping and/or the team is struggling.
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Not me. MLBtraderumors has a guy that does it every year. Not sure how they arrive at their numbers but they are usually pretty close.
Way I see it, we have a chance to keep him or Moose (Maybe a longer term deal but lower AAV than the $15M ). If the latter, Shaw is your 3B and they'll find some way to platoon with him, even if it's Perez. If the latter, Shaw is your 2B until Dubon or Hiura are ready (bets on the former).
I don't know the signing of Moose or Schoop does anything for me, but if I had to have one, give me hope that Schoop can at least hit .25 instead of flirting with the Mendoza line. I have a hard time believing we're going to let a 26 yo former all star walk, and I don't think it's necessarily just throwing good money after bad. His abilities didn't just dry up - give him an offseason to see if he recovers a bit.
I'm just hoping Miley is affordable on a 2-3 year deal. Would be nice to be able to push someone like Peralta back into the pen
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Not a hardliner at all, cubbiechicos. If it was once, even twice, I'd be like, "Maybe he's misunderstood." He's a dirty SOB who deliberately tries to injure opponents. It's a multi-year pattern.
Cubs fans simply won't tolerate a player on their team who's been guilty of questionable baserunning.
(http://freegifmaker.me/img/res/1/5/2/7/6/2/15276259923167512.gif?1527625994)
(https://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/cubs-anthony-rizzo-home-plate-collision-padres-austin-hedges-.jpg)
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Long list, Chase Utley made it over many years, so did AJ Pierzynski, Milton Bradley.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/867841-seven-dirtiest-players-in-mlb#slide2
https://www.thesportster.com/baseball/top-15-dirtiest-players-in-the-mlb-today/
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Couple of Brewers tidbits yesterday:
Quintin Torres-Costa underwent TJ surgery and will miss all of 2019. Very unfortunate loss. 24 year old LHP reliever who had a tremendous season between AA/AAA. Was a lock to be added to the 40 man due to Rule 5 and was certainly going to see time in Milwaukee next year.
Mauricio Dubon expected to be ready for spring training. Was hitting .343 in AAA until he tore his ACL. Was strongly implied that he was days from a call-up as the corresponding move the first time Arcia was optioned. Could have been a 2B option for this year without the setback.
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Cubs fans simply won't tolerate a player on their team who's been guilty of questionable baserunning.
Come on. Nobody in baseball is gonna call Rizzo dirty and he's near universally liked and respected. Lets not bring him into the convo with Machado. Thats unnecessary.
Long list, Chase Utley made it over many years, so did AJ Pierzynski, Milton Bradley.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/867841-seven-dirtiest-players-in-mlb#slide2
https://www.thesportster.com/baseball/top-15-dirtiest-players-in-the-mlb-today/
That second list is iffy at best. It has Harper on there and the reasons are him celebrating and yelling at umps :o
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Come on. Nobody in baseball is gonna call Rizzo dirty and he's near universally liked and respected.
Austin Hedges and Elias Diaz might beg to differ.
Bottom line: When your guy takes out a fielder with a questionable baserunning move, it's a good, hard baseball play.
When the other guy does it, it's dirty.
This goes for all fans, not just Cubs fans. But maybe Cubs fans seem a little more reluctant to admit it.
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Anybody else literally LOL every time Chicos talks about the Cubs? "Us" and "we."
You convinced us! Definitely NOT chicos. Couldn't be. His "us" is the Angels.
Now I understand the Sciocia reference from the other day. No, the Angels are not my team. Based on the reactions others are having to you in various conversations, I'm trying to understand why anyone truly cares what you think. Two days ago was the anniversary of the Cubs clinching the pennant. I can die a happy man for seeing that and will never forget it. Winning the entire thing a week and a half later, though it took years off my life, was pure joy. You don't get to take that away from me sir. Have a nice day.
https://www.youtube.com/v/k2J9Vnw4M-E
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Couple of Brewers tidbits yesterday:
Quintin Torres-Costa underwent TJ surgery and will miss all of 2019. Very unfortunate loss. 24 year old LHP reliever who had a tremendous season between AA/AAA. Was a lock to be added to the 40 man due to Rule 5 and was certainly going to see time in Milwaukee next year.
Mauricio Dubon expected to be ready for spring training. Was hitting .343 in AAA until he tore his ACL. Was strongly implied that he was days from a call-up as the corresponding move the first time Arcia was optioned. Could have been a 2B option for this year without the setback.
I saw that. I'm not an expert but it would seem to delay his being added to the 40 man. I'm not sure but I can't believe someone can claim him and then immediately IR him. I know you can IR a guy during the season when he gets hurt after having made the 25 and played. If anyone has a rules clarification I'd appreciate.
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Okay, I just answered my own question. The player must be ACTIVE on the 25 man for at least 90 days (read that as 1/2 the season), not the 10 or 60 day DL. If you're out for the year, that won't happen. So I highly doubt the Crew starts his clock.
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Now I understand the Sciocia reference from the other day. No, the Angels are not my team. Based on the reactions others are having to you in various conversations, I'm trying to understand why anyone truly cares what you think. Two days ago was the anniversary of the Cubs clinching the pennant. I can die a happy man for seeing that and will never forget it. Winning the entire thing a week and a half later, though it took years off my life, was pure joy. You don't get to take that away from me sir. Have a nice day.
https://www.youtube.com/v/k2J9Vnw4M-E
"I don't know why anyone cares what you think!" Yet here you are responding to me. Which is it?
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I like Machado, I'm mostly concerned about work ethic and conditioning after he signs his big deal. That's my real concern with him.
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Okay, I just answered my own question. The player must be ACTIVE on the 25 man for at least 90 days (read that as 1/2 the season), not the 10 or 60 day DL. If you're out for the year, that won't happen. So I highly doubt the Crew starts his clock.
I think there may be a loophole. I think if the guy is on the dl the entire season the rule 5 stipulations get pushed to the next season. The Twins lost a player like that last year.
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I think there may be a loophole. I think if the guy is on the dl the entire season the rule 5 stipulations get pushed to the next season. The Twins lost a player like that last year.
Explain further. You mean a new team gets to 'stash' him for a year and then in year #2 put him on the 25? Doesn't that terribly penalize the original team? If true, then the Crew might be compelled to put him on the 40 and then 60 day disable him? Wait, do guys on the 60 day DL count against the 40? I think not. So that might be the protection for the original team.
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Now I understand the Sciocia reference from the other day. No, the Angels are not my team. Based on the reactions others are having to you in various conversations, I'm trying to understand why anyone truly cares what you think. Two days ago was the anniversary of the Cubs clinching the pennant. I can die a happy man for seeing that and will never forget it. Winning the entire thing a week and a half later, though it took years off my life, was pure joy. You don't get to take that away from me sir. Have a nice day.
https://www.youtube.com/v/k2J9Vnw4M-E
Fun fact: The Cubs only faced 27 Dodger hitters that game. The only other time that has happened in the playoffs was Don Larsen's perfect game.
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just so i am aware of how this works. brewers fans only bring out the worst in cubs fans when its the in season thread, not the offseason thread? is that how this goes?
cubs fans feel the heat from the brewers closing the gap, say they arent feeling the heat, realize their seat is absolutely on fire and blame their running and hiding on the brewers fans "bringing out the worst in them." then days after the brewers are eliminated they are back discussing baseball again, despite brewers fans still being around and available to "bring out the worst in them."
convenient.
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just so i am aware of how this works. brewers fans only bring out the worst in cubs fans when its the in season thread, not the offseason thread? is that how this goes?
cubs fans feel the heat from the brewers closing the gap, say they arent feeling the heat, realize their seat is absolutely on fire and blame their running and hiding on the brewers fans "bringing out the worst in them." then days after the brewers are eliminated they are back discussing baseball again, despite brewers fans still being around and available to "bring out the worst in them."
convenient.
Jeebus...talk about some useless sh!t stirring. As a Brewers fan I hereby request that you STFU
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just so i am aware of how this works. brewers fans only bring out the worst in cubs fans when its the in season thread, not the offseason thread? is that how this goes?
cubs fans feel the heat from the brewers closing the gap, say they arent feeling the heat, realize their seat is absolutely on fire and blame their running and hiding on the brewers fans "bringing out the worst in them." then days after the brewers are eliminated they are back discussing baseball again, despite brewers fans still being around and available to "bring out the worst in them."
convenient.
There are 4 people who should be banned from these threads. Can we actually ban them this year so we don't have to constantly beat the dead horses?
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There are 4 people who should be banned from these threads. Can we actually ban them this year so we don't have to constantly beat the dead horses?
you are right. i bring out the worst in those angelic cubs fans. its not the cubs fans fault, its the brewers fans who just suck their deepest, darkest demons right out of them. ban me, i don't allow cubs fans to control themselves.
lets face it. cubs fans pretended all year that the little brother, who was supposed to be in year two of a MASSIVE rebuild, passed them up in what was supposed to be a multi-year dynasty on the mlb, and when cubs fans finally came to that realization they went into hiding and blamed it on the brewers fans "bringing out their worst." had the crew won game 7, and then won the ws, there is absolutely 0 chance many of the posters on here are on muscoop, let alone talking baseball on muscoop.
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What are the rules on trading arbitration eligible players that aren't under contract? Asking for a friend and not because Manny Pina was on my flight to Philly this morning.
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I left the other thread because I was getting in useless arguments with Brewer fans.
I figured a hot stove discussion wouldn't lead to the same crap but I guess I was wrong.
Leaving here now as well.
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I left the other thread because I was getting in useless arguments with Brewer fans.
I figured a hot stove discussion wouldn't lead to the same crap but I guess I was wrong.
Leaving here now as well.
The complex is strong.
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you are right. i bring out the worst in those angelic cubs fans. its not the cubs fans fault, its the brewers fans who just suck their deepest, darkest demons right out of them. ban me, i don't allow cubs fans to control themselves.
lets face it. cubs fans pretended all year that the little brother, who was supposed to be in year two of a MASSIVE rebuild, passed them up in what was supposed to be a multi-year dynasty on the mlb, and when cubs fans finally came to that realization they went into hiding and blamed it on the brewers fans "bringing out their worst." had the crew won game 7, and then won the ws, there is absolutely 0 chance many of the posters on here are on muscoop, let alone talking baseball on muscoop.
Who said anything about "bringing out their worst"? I may honestly have just missed it
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Who said anything about "bringing out their worst"? I may honestly have just missed it
Maybe one person, but honestly, as myself and other posters mentioned, the Cubs were playing awful baseball, the Brewers were on fire, and there wasn't much positive to talk about. So why bother posting? It was a Brewers excitement thread, and it had minimal interest for Cubs fans. Why come and have Brewers fans gloat or talk about the optimal balance between Hader, Jeffries, and Knebel? I would expect the same if it was the other way around. Its not shocking that they returned for offseason discussion. Its interesting for Cubs fans again.
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you are right. i bring out the worst in those angelic cubs fans. its not the cubs fans fault, its the brewers fans who just suck their deepest, darkest demons right out of them. ban me, i don't allow cubs fans to control themselves.
lets face it. cubs fans pretended all year that the little brother, who was supposed to be in year two of a MASSIVE rebuild, passed them up in what was supposed to be a multi-year dynasty on the mlb, and when cubs fans finally came to that realization they went into hiding and blamed it on the brewers fans "bringing out their worst." had the crew won game 7, and then won the ws, there is absolutely 0 chance many of the posters on here are on muscoop, let alone talking baseball on muscoop.
Just about every post of yours is unintentionally hilarious.
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It was a long time comin, but the Twins have brought in Rocco Siffredi to be manager
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Just about every post of yours is unintentionally hilarious.
glad to see you back out of hiding.
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Just about every post of yours is unintentionally hilarious. embarrassing.
FIFY...from a Brewer fan's perspective.
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Can we win hang a banner other than NL Central Champs or NLCS participants before rubbing it in the Cubs faces?
Also, there is nothing dumber than the signs in GAME F*CKING 7 that read "What time do the Cubs play?" It was humorous in game 1 of the DS, but come on
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Can we win hang a banner other than NL Central Champs or NLCS participants before rubbing it in the Cubs faces?
Also, there is nothing dumber than the signs in GAME F*CKING 7 that read "What time do the Cubs play?" It was humorous in game 1 of the DS, but come on
Yep. You don't want to be called "little brother?" Don't act like one.
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FIFY...from a Brewer fan's perspective.
Bias is the guy bringing a Cole Hamels sign to game 6 of the NLCS.
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Bias is the guy bringing a Cole Hamels sign to game 6 of the NLCS.
In the sake of transparency, screw Cole Hamels
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In the sake of transparency, screw Cole Hamels
I agree, but bringing that sign to one of the biggest games in franchise history?
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glad to see you back out of hiding.
It's clear logical thought isn't your strong suit but JWags85 summed it up nicely in regards to why it made no sense for Cubs fans to continue posting regularly once they were eliminated.
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In the sake of transparency, screw Cole Hamels
Hoping the Cubs sign Hamels to a nice, long, multi-year contract.
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"I don't know why anyone cares what you think!" Yet here you are responding to me. Which is it?
Maybe next time get the actual quote correct. "I'm trying to understand why anyone truly cares what you think" is much different than what you put in quotes.
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https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2018/10/25/brewers-hitting-coach-darnell-coles-resigns-after-erratic-offensive-year/1758051002/
Coles out as Brewers hitting coach. A welcome change. After dishing out the cash and trading half the farm, the offense had to be better than it was.
A little surprised at Tunnel being dismissed given the strength of the bullpen, though not really a role that is immune to changes (Bill Castro's longevity being the exception). Don't think it could have happened without Derek Johnson's ok, and he's done enough that I trust his judgment.
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They also got rid of their head athletic trainer, who probably screwed up the Suter forearm injury.
Being a hitting coach is tough. Yelich does his double-double-homer-walk-double-walk thing to end the regular season, and you're a genius. Don't hit the next week? You're fired.
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https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2018/10/25/brewers-hitting-coach-darnell-coles-resigns-after-erratic-offensive-year/1758051002/
Coles out as Brewers hitting coach. A welcome change. After dishing out the cash and trading half the farm, the offense had to be better than it was.
A little surprised at Tunnel being dismissed given the strength of the bullpen, though not really a role that is immune to changes (Bill Castro's longevity being the exception). Don't think it could have happened without Derek Johnson's ok, and he's done enough that I trust his judgment.
According to the article, Coles wasn't pushed.
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Bottom line, he is a very good player that I don't care for. If we do sign him, my hope is we can get to his head and change some of things he does. I believe in reformation and a few chances in life, not totally throwing people on the trash pile. I didn't realize you were such a hardliner.
Fans don't have that power, it will come from his teammates and coaches, or more importantly from within.
Lol.
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According to the article, Coles wasn't pushed.
Case of semantics--
"Wee r ant diggin' yo coachin'."
"Fook u and take dis job and shove it up yo tuchis. Eye quit."
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Both Moose and Soria decline their options, and become free agents.
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Lol.
Department of redundancy? You responded the same way in a different message group, now copied my response and your response to it in this one? Trying to drive clicks or something?
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Don't think it could have happened without Derek Johnson's ok, and he's done enough that I trust his judgment.
Derek Johnson leaving also, apparently heading to Cincinnati.
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Derek Johnson leaving also, apparently heading to Cincinnati.
This feels like a big loss.
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This feels like a big loss.
Totally agree. And they tried hard to keep him.
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Something isn't sitting right with these departures.
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Something isn't sitting right with these departures.
Could be any of several reasons that they left. I don't see anything unusual.
They tried to keep Johnson, but I think they were fine with Coles leaving.
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Cubs pick up the option on Hamels, trade Smyly to the Rangers.
Apparently, according to Ken Rosenthal, the Smyly trade had to happen to "clear salary" before picking up the Hamels money.
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Cubs pick up the option on Hamels, trade Smyly to the Rangers.
Apparently, according to Ken Rosenthal, the Smyly trade had to happen to "clear salary" before picking up the Hamels money.
This looked like an easy decision. Only cost the rangers $1m for a guy who is actually a pretty good pitcher when he is healthy. (Of course that is a big IF).
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This looked like an easy decision. Only cost the rangers $1m for a guy who is actually a pretty good pitcher when he is healthy. (Of course that is a big IF).
I also think I saw somewhere that the Rangers were on the hook for Hamels' $6M buyout if the Cubs didn't pick up his option (presumably a term of that trade) so they had incentive to help the Cubs clear salary.
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Cubs pick up the option on Hamels, trade Smyly to the Rangers.
Apparently, according to Ken Rosenthal, the Smyly trade had to happen to "clear salary" before picking up the Hamels money.
I'll be extremely surprised if Hamels is worth the $20M. I think his one-third of season or so of resurgence is mostly an illusion that likely won't be repeated. But hey, the Cubs seem to have an unlimited budget to throw away, so go for it. Maybe extend Darvish, too.
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I'll be extremely surprised if Hamels is worth the $20M. I think his one-third of season or so of resurgence is mostly an illusion that likely won't be repeated. But hey, the Cubs seem to have an unlimited budget to throw away, so go for it. Maybe extend Darvish, too.
I'm not so sure. If they needed to clear payroll to keep Hamels, well, that at least seems to indicate they are near the top of their budget. Who knows though, maybe they just had a threshold for this point in the offseason and they are still planning on pursuing someone like Harper.
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I also think I saw somewhere that the Rangers were on the hook for Hamels' $6M buyout if the Cubs didn't pick up his option (presumably a term of that trade) so they had incentive to help the Cubs clear salary.
Yup. That's why I said they were only on the hook for a mil for Smyly. His contract is $7m and the buyout for Hamels would have been $6m.
This move for the Cubs makes me really doubt whether they will be players for Harper or Machado.
(Hadn't read your comment yet - as that is what you were saying about payroll.)
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The Cubs also have a full rotation with Montgomery as the 6th starter. They very well may not get Harper or Machado but I think a lot of people are overanalyzing the trade of Smyly in terms of where they'd be willing to go in terms of the luxury tax.
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The Cubs also have a full rotation with Montgomery as the 6th starter. They very well may not get Harper or Machado but I think a lot of people are overanalyzing the trade of Smyly in terms of where they'd be willing to go in terms of the luxury tax.
Chatwood as well. The trade of Smyly is pretty "meh" to me in every way, it was more that Rosenthal, routinely one of the most connected, well informed guys, made is seem like where the payroll is could be a roadblock. The fact that KR framed the trade in that light seems to mean something.
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Chatwood as well. The trade of Smyly is pretty "meh" to me in every way, it was more that Rosenthal, routinely one of the most connected, well informed guys, made is seem like where the payroll is could be a roadblock. The fact that KR framed the trade in that light seems to mean something.
I thought about mentioning Chatwood but obviously he can't be counted on for anything right now.
Rosenthal is very good and I could be way off. I just think the trade of Smyly is more about reallocating some salary than a signal the Cubs won't go over the tax. Spending $7 million on what would be your 6th or 7th starter just doesn't seem to be the best use of payroll.
Harper may not happen for a variety of reasons. I just don't believe not being able to afford him is one. I don't think the financial penalties in regards to the luxury tax are an obstacle. It would be the loss of draft picks that they'd want to avoid.
And realistically they have 3 more years before there will be some really big changes so you have to take advantage of the opportunity to try to win another one while you can.
If Bryant is healthy and Contreras bounces back those are two big boosts to that offense.
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For the Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers and maybe a handful of other franchises, "afford" is a meaningless word.
They can choose not to afford somebody, they can choose not to run up their payroll and/or not to reach the luxury-tax threshold, but to say they "can't afford" somebody ... that's silliness.
It was like apologists who said Reinsdorf couldn't have "afforded" to keep the dynastic Bulls (or at least most of them) together. He chose not to.
I mean, I have the means to afford a Lamborghini. (As do many other Scoopers, I'm guessing.) But I choose not to buy one because I do not believe it would not be a wise allocation of my resources.
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For the Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers and maybe a handful of other franchises, "afford" is a meaningless word.
They can choose not to afford somebody, they can choose not to run up their payroll and/or not to reach the luxury-tax threshold, but to say they "can't afford" somebody ... that's silliness.
It was like apologists who said Reinsdorf couldn't have "afforded" to keep the dynastic Bulls (or at least most of them) together. He chose not to.
I mean, I have the means to afford a Lamborghini. (As do many other Scoopers, I'm guessing.) But I choose not to buy one because I do not believe it would not be a wise allocation of my resources.
There was an interesting panel discussion on MLB Network the other day. They were discussing the outrageous salaries of players, to include Stanton's 30 million per year. Many GMs are now in the belief mode of not paying a player 30 million a year, yes Kershaw just got around that, and going in a different direction. Pitchers would be the priority in the money spending, since there are so many talented younger position players at big league level or minors.
The direction would be getting two players at 15 million a year or three players at 10 million a year. This off season will be the barometer of that precedent with the free agent status of Harper and Machado. Two years ago, it was discussed that Harper would be the first 400 million man and they all stated that won't happen now. Should be an interesting few months.
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Discuss: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/11/mlb-free-agent-predictions-2019.html (https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/11/mlb-free-agent-predictions-2019.html)
My initial reactions:
1. Harper at $420M/14 from the Dodgers and Machado at $390/13 from the Phillies. I don't often pretend to know more than the experts, but this will not happen. Last year was the beginning of a trend, not an anomaly. I don't put either player at a greater than 50% chance to get 10+ years. (caveat - if there are 3 mutual options or opt outs over the life of a deal, you could make it 100 years if you want because the term becomes kind of meaningless).
2. I think some of these SPs were made to look better than they are at the end of 2018, due to managers going to their bullpen earlier and more often than they will over a full year (even in the new MLB). Gio was great for the Brewers after the trade, for example, but he was also put into good situations by CC. If someone wants to give him $24/2, he should laugh to the bank.
3. Don't overpay for old pitchers that were reclamation projects. Underpay for your own new reclamation projects. I'd rather take swings at Clay Buccholz, Marco Estrada, or Chris Tillman vs paying Charlie Morton, Anibal Sanchez or Eovaldi.
4. These projections really show how qualifying offers punish players. Ryu should be worth far more than one extra year $9M vs Gio or Anibal Sanchez.
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Discuss: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/11/mlb-free-agent-predictions-2019.html (https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/11/mlb-free-agent-predictions-2019.html)
My initial reactions:
1. Harper at $420M/14 from the Dodgers and Machado at $390/13 from the Phillies. I don't often pretend to know more than the experts, but this will not happen. Last year was the beginning of a trend, not an anomaly. I don't put either player at a greater than 50% chance to get 10+ years. (caveat - if there are 3 mutual options or opt outs over the life of a deal, you could make it 100 years if you want because the term becomes kind of meaningless).
2. I think some of these SPs were made to look better than they are at the end of 2018, due to managers going to their bullpen earlier and more often than they will over a full year (even in the new MLB). Gio was great for the Brewers after the trade, for example, but he was also put into good situations by CC. If someone wants to give him $24/2, he should laugh to the bank.
3. Don't overpay for old pitchers that were reclamation projects. Underpay for your own new reclamation projects. I'd rather take swings at Clay Buccholz, Marco Estrada, or Chris Tillman vs paying Charlie Morton, Anibal Sanchez or Eovaldi.
4. These projections really show how qualifying offers punish players. Ryu should be worth far more than one extra year $9M vs Gio or Anibal Sanchez.
I agree on #1 with a caveat that I think there's still an outside possibly that one team blows modern thinking out of the water. I think both of them set new records in AAV, but I don't see a contract > 10 years. If one gets it, it's Machado, who has been more durable and consistent. Granted, these guys are just entering their physical prime, so this is very different than when the Angels signed Pujols, who was already over 30.
1 Win (read, one WAR) is valued at - give or take - about $10M (https://bit.ly/2sCVBs3 (https://bit.ly/2sCVBs3)). So by signing Harper at this value, you're banking on 42 WAR over the lifetime of that deal. Harper to date has produced an average of 3.85 WAR/year (albeit in a couple injury shortened seasons). So over the lifetime, of this deal, he'd make it up if he continued at this pace. The question is whether teams are willing to bet on that as he enters his age 37, 38, 39, 40 seasons. I don't think that's reasonable to expect at his position. The other way I suppose teams couldconvince themselves into this contract is if they think they can get SO much value out of these guys in the first decade of their deals that they will absorb and tolerate less production on the last couple.
Separately, I don't know that I agree on #2 - star relievers are making $10M/year, so if you can have a SP that you put into a position to succeed, you might get that value back considering more innings. I think teams will be more judicious in general around overpaying for starters given the horrors that were the 2017 SP market, but teams will still pay good (not great) value if they think they can better utilize a guy like Gio (for the record, no one should pay Gio $12M/year)
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I agree on #1 with a caveat that I think there's still an outside possibly that one team blows modern thinking out of the water. I think both of them set new records in AAV, but I don't see a contract > 10 years. If one gets it, it's Machado, who has been more durable and consistent. Granted, these guys are just entering their physical prime, so this is very different than when the Angels signed Pujols, who was already over 30.
1 Win (read, one WAR) is valued at - give or take - about $10M (https://bit.ly/2sCVBs3 (https://bit.ly/2sCVBs3)). So by signing Harper at this value, you're banking on 42 WAR over the lifetime of that deal. Harper to date has produced an average of 3.85 WAR/year (albeit in a couple injury shortened seasons). So over the lifetime, of this deal, he'd make it up if he continued at this pace. The question is whether teams are willing to bet on that as he enters his age 37, 38, 39, 40 seasons. I don't think that's reasonable to expect at his position. The other way I suppose teams couldconvince themselves into this contract is if they think they can get SO much value out of these guys in the first decade of their deals that they will absorb and tolerate less production on the last couple.
Separately, I don't know that I agree on #2 - star relievers are making $10M/year, so if you can have a SP that you put into a position to succeed, you might get that value back considering more innings. I think teams will be more judicious in general around overpaying for starters given the horrors that were the 2017 SP market, but teams will still pay good (not great) value if they think they can better utilize a guy like Gio (for the record, no one should pay Gio $12M/year)
Harper just turned 26. A 10 year deal makes the final years of his contract 34,35,36. He seems, likely at least to me, to still be a productive player. He is also, statistically, just about to enter his prime. It wouldn't be surprising at all to see him put up seasons of exceeding that 3.85 number by a decent margin.
I was happy to hear rumblings today that the White Sox are going to be aggressive after both Harper and Machado (an either or, not both at least that was my impression). Not that they will get either, but they have very limited payroll commitments and could certainly snag one of them. I'd be happy with either, but if it were my money, I'd prefer Harper.
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Discuss: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/11/mlb-free-agent-predictions-2019.html (https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/11/mlb-free-agent-predictions-2019.html)
My initial reactions:
1. Harper at $420M/14 from the Dodgers and Machado at $390/13 from the Phillies. I don't often pretend to know more than the experts, but this will not happen. Last year was the beginning of a trend, not an anomaly. I don't put either player at a greater than 50% chance to get 10+ years. (caveat - if there are 3 mutual options or opt outs over the life of a deal, you could make it 100 years if you want because the term becomes kind of meaningless).
I think you are spot on. I agree it will not happen. Teams do not want to be saddled with any more Pujols-type deals. Contracts are going to reflect what teams feels a player will be worth over the life of the contract rather than pay them for what they have already done as has been for the last few decades.
I'm also guessing that this will cause more friction between the Union and the owners. It's gonna be very tough getting a new labor deal in a couple years when the contract is up - partly because of the new way salaries will be given over the next two years. I think the Union just hired a couple of really good labor lawyers just in the last week or two.
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Harper just turned 26. A 10 year deal makes the final years of his contract 34,35,36. He seems, likely at least to me, to still be a productive player. He is also, statistically, just about to enter his prime. It wouldn't be surprising at all to see him put up seasons of exceeding that 3.85 number by a decent margin.
I was happy to hear rumblings today that the White Sox are going to be aggressive after both Harper and Machado (an either or, not both at least that was my impression). Not that they will get either, but they have very limited payroll commitments and could certainly snag one of them. I'd be happy with either, but if it were my money, I'd prefer Harper.
To clarify, I was referring to what seasons he'd be in under a 14 year contract. And I stand by those years not being worth it even if the player outpaces his AAV in the early years. If I had to choose, I'd choose the above average left infielder, royal dickhead that he is.
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To clarify, I was referring to what seasons he'd be in under a 14 year contract. And I stand by those years not being worth it even if the player outpaces his AAV in the early years. If I had to choose, I'd choose the above average left infielder, royal dickhead that he is.
Ah, my fault entirely. I missed the years.
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Don't know why more teams don't follow the Bobby Bonilla model, aina?
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I’m not breaking any news here, but for two years I had been mentioning that I’ve heard from people with the Sox that they will be all in on Machado. I saw Rosenthal mention the Sox and Machado today as well. They may not get him, but I have heard from reliable people that they will not be outbid.
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As a Sox fan, I'm intrigued by the Mariners reported fire sale. Paxton and Haniger would be expensive gets (probably at least Cease, Robert, Madrigal) in terms of prospects, but cash wise they'd still have tons of flexibility.
If the Sox could get a 2020 rotation that is anchored by Paxton, Rodon, and Kopech, and one of Hansen/Dunning pan out, and Gioloto or Lopez is your fifth starter, that would work.
An outfield with Hangier and Jimenez would work for me as well. If somehow they could sign Machado, and then in the draft luck into Rutschman at 3...sign me up.
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As a Sox fan, I'm intrigued by the Mariners reported fire sale. Paxton and Haniger would be expensive gets (probably at least Cease, Robert, Madrigal) in terms of prospects, but cash wise they'd still have tons of flexibility.
If the Sox could get a 2020 rotation that is anchored by Paxton, Rodon, and Kopech, and one of Hansen/Dunning pan out, and Gioloto or Lopez is your fifth starter, that would work.
An outfield with Hangier and Jimenez would work for me as well. If somehow they could sign Machado, and then in the draft luck into Rutschman at 3...sign me up.
Haniger probably isn't going anywhere considering is he is under control for 5 more years. Does it make sense to trade prospect capital for Paxton when he's a free agent in two years considering the Sox aren't likely to be competitive in 2019?
And how much over the highest offer for Machado would the Sox have to go to sign him? Anything could happen but it's extremely unlikely from my perspective.
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As a Sox fan, I'm intrigued by the Mariners reported fire sale. Paxton and Haniger would be expensive gets (probably at least Cease, Robert, Madrigal) in terms of prospects, but cash wise they'd still have tons of flexibility.
If the Sox could get a 2020 rotation that is anchored by Paxton, Rodon, and Kopech, and one of Hansen/Dunning pan out, and Gioloto or Lopez is your fifth starter, that would work.
An outfield with Hangier and Jimenez would work for me as well. If somehow they could sign Machado, and then in the draft luck into Rutschman at 3...sign me up.
As a Sox fan, giving up Madrigal, Cease and Robert for Haniger and Paxton would make me want to jump off the upper deck of the Cell.
Haniger has had one solid MLB season - and not until he turned 27 - plays replacement-level defense and strikes out too often (not exactly what the Sox need). And except for one excellent season, Paxton has basically been no better than a middle-of-the-rotation guy.
You do not give up three top 50 prospects for that, IMO. Arguably, the Red Sox gave up less for Chris Sale than what the White Sox would be giving up here.
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As a Sox fan, giving up Madrigal, Cease and Robert for Haniger and Paxton would make me want to jump off the upper deck of the Cell.
Haniger has had one solid MLB season - and not until he turned 27 - plays replacement-level defense and strikes out too often (not exactly what the Sox need). And except for one excellent season, Paxton has basically been no better than a middle-of-the-rotation guy.
You do not give up three top 50 prospects for that, IMO. Arguably, the Red Sox gave up less for Chris Sale than what the White Sox would be giving up here.
In my scenario, they're giving up more because they'd be getting Haniger and Paxton. You're also getting long term cost control with Haniger, and you're in good shape with Paxton's contract through the rest of his prime. Whether you think Haniger or Paxton are quality is worthy of discussion, but I think if you're going to sell high on Robert/Madrigal, this is the time to do so. I wouldn't want to part with Cease, but he'd be a cost of doing business guy.
I think Hahn is going to trade some prospects for either a proven outfielder or starter in the next few weeks. Knowing he's picking third in June and will have high picks in every round would help offset any moving of prospects this winter.
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In my scenario, they're giving up more because they'd be getting Haniger and Paxton. You're also getting long term cost control with Haniger, and you're in good shape with Paxton's contract through the rest of his prime. Whether you think Haniger or Paxton are quality is worthy of discussion, but I think if you're going to sell high on Robert/Madrigal, this is the time to do so. I wouldn't want to part with Cease, but he'd be a cost of doing business guy.
I think Hahn is going to trade some prospects for either a proven outfielder or starter in the next few weeks. Knowing he's picking third in June and will have high picks in every round would help offset any moving of prospects this winter.
Right, but they already have long(er)-term cost control over Robert, Madrigal and Cease, so I don't see a great upside in getting cost control over Haniger, a guy who's already halfway through his baseball prime years. What good is cost control over a guy who, history suggests, is unlikely to improve as a player. And again, this is a guy who's had one good MLB season. . Maybe Haniger is a late bloomer. But there's just as much chance he's a one-year wonder. After all, we're talking about a guy who slashed .289/.370/.492 in six minor-league seasons. Solid, but not portending of stardom, especially considering he was mostly playing against younger competition.
I guess my point is I just don't see Haniger and Paxton as the kind of franchise-changing players you sell the farm for. And why sell Robert and Madrigal at all? Obviously potential is a loaded word, but all three guys have long-term all-star potential.
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Right, but they already have long(er)-term cost control over Robert, Madrigal and Cease, so I don't see a great upside in getting cost control over Haniger, a guy who's already halfway through his baseball prime years. What good is cost control over a guy who, history suggests, is unlikely to improve as a player. And again, this is a guy who's had one good MLB season. . Maybe Haniger is a late bloomer. But there's just as much chance he's a one-year wonder. After all, we're talking about a guy who slashed .289/.370/.492 in six minor-league seasons. Solid, but not portending of stardom, especially considering he was mostly playing against younger competition.
I guess my point is I just don't see Haniger and Paxton as the kind of franchise-changing players you sell the farm for. And why sell Robert and Madrigal at all? Obviously potential is a loaded word, but all three guys have long-term all-star potential.
All reasonable and fair points, no argument here. You could very well be right on, and I didn't want to wrongly compare Haniger to Yelich, but I can see the Sox doing something like what the Brewers did last offseason. I just don't know who that guy(s) would be, and when I was reading about the M's possible firesale, that's who initially caught my eye. Very fair assessment though, made me re-consider a bit.
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All reasonable and fair points, no argument here. You could very well be right on, and I didn't want to wrongly compare Haniger to Yelich, but I can see the Sox doing something like what the Brewers did last offseason. I just don't know who that guy(s) would be, and when I was reading about the M's possible firesale, that's who initially caught my eye. Very fair assessment though, made me re-consider a bit.
FWIW, I agree that Hahn will (and should!) add some established talent this offseason, and may give up some prospects to do it. I just don't see it being any of their top 7-8 guys.
The nice thing is that the Sox system is so deep that their 9-12 prospects (guys like Hansen, Adolfo, Basabe, Gonzalez) would be top 5 guys in a lot of systems.
Rutschman vs Langeliers will be interesting to watch in the spring.
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FWIW, I agree that Hahn will (and should!) add some established talent this offseason, and may give up some prospects to do it. I just don't see it being any of their top 7-8 guys.
The nice thing is that the Sox system is so deep that their 9-12 prospects (guys like Hansen, Adolfo, Basabe, Gonzalez) would be top 5 guys in a lot of systems.
Rutschman vs Langeliers will be interesting to watch in the spring.
It's funny, because 3 of the guys you mention I irrationally high hopes for in Hansen, Adolfo, and Basabe. I admittedly have only read up on Langeliers, but when Madrigal was in the CWS, I fell in love watching Rutschman, he's a DUDE in my opinion, the kind of guy who just looks like he can lead and carry a team in a big series. Collins then maybe can become a DH and catch 30-40 games a year (if they go with either Rutschman or Langeliers).
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As a Sox fan, I'm intrigued by the Mariners reported fire sale. Paxton and Haniger would be expensive gets (probably at least Cease, Robert, Madrigal) in terms of prospects, but cash wise they'd still have tons of flexibility.
If the Sox could get a 2020 rotation that is anchored by Paxton, Rodon, and Kopech, and one of Hansen/Dunning pan out, and Gioloto or Lopez is your fifth starter, that would work.
An outfield with Hangier and Jimenez would work for me as well. If somehow they could sign Machado, and then in the draft luck into Rutschman at 3...sign me up.
I disagree with pretty much everything here. Paxton has never been healthy (and 2 years of control left). His stuff is unquestionable, but his career high in innings is 160. That just seems like way to much to give up. Robert is tearing up the AFL (the premier prospect league) to the tune of about .370. Cease has ace potential and will probably be with the Sox at some point next season if all goes well. Haniger was great last year, and I'm a big fan, but I think that would be just too much. He is also a guy that the M's are saying they are probably not going to move (along with Diaz).
They could likely get Greinke for a couple 10-20 range prospects and half his deal. Arizona seems basically desperate to move that deal. Any one of those guys you mentioned could headline a deal for Kluber (Cleveland is reportedly willing to shop him or Carrasco).
The Sox should have money to spend right not. Their payroll right now for next year is somewhere around 54 depending on some arbitration. The middle of the pack last year was around 140. The Sox can just use money to acquire some guys. Maybe Machado, Harper, maybe just use it to get Greinke. Giving up Robert, Madrigal and Cease would be their 3-4-5 prospects, with 2 (Kopech) being down for a year. That trade would send at least 2 guys with All Star potential. Not that they will be, but that is high end prospect talent. I don't think they should be clearing out the top levels of their farm system at this point.
I am also not a fan of Rutschman. Catchers high in the draft scare me. It is just such a demanding position that it saps guys of their skills and wears them down. It is certainly too early to say, but I am very skeptical to say the least.
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A lot of pitching looks to be on the market. I think a trade deadline deal for Paxton, either this year or next, likely will make more sense than a winter meetings deal for both the M's and whoever ends up buying. To buck's point, his stuff rocks but he's never healthy. If I'm a GM, I would rather pay $5/start over 50 games plus playoffs to not have to worry about injury risk over a full season than $3/start over a full 162.
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Bill James seems to have jumped the shark.
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Bill James seems to have jumped the shark.
Guilty of saying the quiet parts out loud. Not everyone in MLB management thinks this way, but I'd bet that there are more that think the MLB is a machine that will survive whatever labor issues they face.
As other labor stoppages in sports have shown, he's wrong.
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Bill James seems to have jumped the shark.
His place in baseball history as one of the pioneering sabermetricians is secure.
However, he may have outlived his usefulness.
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Bryce Harper
:P
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Guilty of saying the quiet parts out loud. Not everyone in MLB management thinks this way, but I'd bet that there are more that think the MLB is a machine that will survive whatever labor issues they face.
As other labor stoppages in sports have shown, he's wrong.
Maybe I interpreted it wrong, could he just have been finally giving beer vendors their due? ;)
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Bryce Harper
:P
#LOVE
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Bryce Harper
:P
#LOVE
Feel free to rub it in my face if you sign him but for now....
(https://media.giphy.com/media/p0RDMJGgMXF96/giphy.gif)
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Feel free to rub it in my face if you sign him but for now....
(https://media.giphy.com/media/p0RDMJGgMXF96/giphy.gif)
The Sox have a lot of money to offer. Great players sign with bad teams all the time.
Lester to the cubs.
Cano to the M's
Arod to the Rangers.
All these teams were at least 20 games under the season before signing those guys.
Obviously the odds are against it happening, but if they offer the most money, it likely won't matter. Also they have been connected to Nelson Cruz and Patrick Corbin. They could add 80 million to their payroll this offseason and be about average.
Honestly, I'm thrilled they are pursuing him like this whether they end up getting him or not. I like the front office being aggressive.
And nice use of Jordan as apparently the Jordan statue was donning a Harper jersey today.
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I hope the Cubs and the Sox pass on Harper. He's not worth it.
I'd pay $400 million over 10 years for Trout.
Harper has played 7 full seasons at this point. He's a 3-5 win player (outside of 2015). In 7 years, Trout has been 9+ WAR except for one year at 8.3 and last year's 7 win season due to injury.
The Stanton contract is a realistic comp for Harper.
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The Sox have a lot of money to offer. Great players sign with bad teams all the time.
Lester to the cubs.
Cano to the M's
Arod to the Rangers.
All these teams were at least 20 games under the season before signing those guys.
Obviously the odds are against it happening, but if they offer the most money, it likely won't matter. Also they have been connected to Nelson Cruz and Patrick Corbin. They could add 80 million to their payroll this offseason and be about average.
Honestly, I'm thrilled they are pursuing him like this whether they end up getting him or not. I like the front office being aggressive.
And nice use of Jordan as apparently the Jordan statue was donning a Harper jersey today.
All the time? Lester clearly had a connection to Epstein and Hoyer that had a big impact there.
How did the Cano and ARod deals work out for Seattle and Texas? Granted, Harper is different due to his age.
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All the time? Lester clearly had a connection to Epstein and Hoyer that had a big impact there.
How did the Cano and ARod deals work out for Seattle and Texas? Granted, Harper is different due to his age.
Barry Bonds to the Giants (72-win team previous season)
Randy Johnson to the D-Backs (65 wins)
Carlos Beltran to the Mets (76 wins)
Roger Clemens to the Blue Jays (76 wins)
I also doubt Harper ends up on the South Side, but it won't be because they had a bad record last year.
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I’ve said the last two years in these baseball threads that come this winter, the Sox were going to be all in for free agency. They’ve been hoarding cash for the last few seasons, their future payroll commitment is zilch. They are going hard for both Machado & Harper.
The reality is, they have nothing to lose. The Kopech instagram post yesterday was legit about the jersey number. Coming strong out of the shoot and showing their interest is great. If you’re going to overpay in FA, better for a guy at 26 than in his 30’s.
Maybe they don’t get either one, but certainly love the fact they’re not eff’in around.
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Barry Bonds to the Giants (72-win team previous season)
Randy Johnson to the D-Backs (65 wins)
Carlos Beltran to the Mets (76 wins)
Roger Clemens to the Blue Jays (76 wins)
I also doubt Harper ends up on the South Side, but it won't be because they had a bad record last year.
Again, that's not "all the time". It's the exception more than the rule.
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Again, that's not "all the time". It's the exception more than the rule.
Those are some of the biggest contracts in history. Two of the deals I mentioned are 2 of the biggest 3 deals in the history of baseball (and Lester is top 10 ever for a pitcher). Many of the top deals are like this, most of the others are others are to the Yankees.
No it doesn't happen all the time, because contracts like those don't happen all the time. But I suppose you knew what I meant and are just being intentionally obtuse. What does happen all the time, is that guys sign where they are offered the most money. I imagine that will be the biggest factor for both Harper and Machado. And Corbin. And Cruz. And Grandal. And Pollock. And McCutcheon. And just about every other free agent.
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Those are some of the biggest contracts in history. Two of the deals I mentioned are 2 of the biggest 3 deals in the history of baseball. Many of the top deals are like this, most of the others are others are to the Yankees.
No it doesn't happen all the time, because contracts like those don't happen all the time. But I suppose you knew what I meant and are just being intentionally obtuse. What does happen all the time, is that guys sign where they are offered the most money. I imagine that will be the biggest factor for both Harper and Machado. And Corbin. And Cruz. And Grandal. And Pollock. And McCutcheon. And just about every other free agent.
If you want Scott Boras for an agent you have to go to the highest bidder - that's how he rolls.
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I hope the Cubs and the Sox pass on Harper. He's not worth it.
I'd pay $400 million over 10 years for Trout.
Harper has played 7 full seasons at this point. He's a 3-5 win player (outside of 2015). In 7 years, Trout has been 9+ WAR except for one year at 8.3 and last year's 7 win season due to injury.
The Stanton contract is a realistic comp for Harper.
I mean, you're right. But when the biggest knock on Harper is that he isn't Trout, well that alone speaks pretty highly of him.
The other obvious problem with you statement, is well, the Sox can't sign Trout. For any amount right now. They could theoretically sign Harper. He is also, again, theoretically, just entering his prime.
The problem with the Stanton contract being comparable is the simple fact that Stanton was not a free agent. His was signed as an extension, with out competition factoring into the contract. So just with that, it is a different situation.
In his 10 most comparable hitters by age, are names like Griffey Jr., Frank Robinson, Mike Trout, Eddie Mathews, Miguel Cabrera and Tony Conigliaro. That's 5 Hall of Famers ( 2 future, but basically sure things, and top caliber HOF-ers at that), and a career tragically cut short. Others on the list include Andruw Jones and Justin Upton.
Even with that, it is almost certain the team that signs Harper will overpay for him. Where the Sox are right, now, I'm ok with that. I think they should front load a deal because they have basically no commitments on the books right now. Front load it so in years 7-8-9 and however long after you aren't in a Pujols situation. Front load it to make it more attractive. That is a card the Sox can play that other franchises may not be able to match.
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If you want Scott Boras for an agent you have to go to the highest bidder - that's how he rolls.
Huh, does he have that reputation? I had no idea. It isn't like that has been his thing for like 20 years.
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Oh, and Arod worked out fine for the Rangers. He had 2 monster years, then they traded him for Soriano who had 2 monster years for them. Aside from all the other stupid BS that makes him a compete pariah, Arod always produced when he was on the field. He basically lived up to that contract, now, we all know how, but it wasn't the albatross that Cano has become. Those contracts aren't analogous in anything other that dollars.
Another factor here is that when Arod signed, there were only a few teams over 100 million in payroll, making his 25 even more significant. Now most teams are in the middle 100's. Some far over, so a 25-30 million contract isn't exactly the same burden.
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Those are some of the biggest contracts in history. Two of the deals I mentioned are 2 of the biggest 3 deals in the history of baseball (and Lester is top 10 ever for a pitcher). Many of the top deals are like this, most of the others are others are to the Yankees.
No it doesn't happen all the time, because contracts like those don't happen all the time. But I suppose you knew what I meant and are just being intentionally obtuse. What does happen all the time, is that guys sign where they are offered the most money. I imagine that will be the biggest factor for both Harper and Machado. And Corbin. And Cruz. And Grandal. And Pollock. And McCutcheon. And just about every other free agent.
If you didn't mean "all the time" you should have said something else. Lester didn't take the biggest deal. Heyward didn't take his biggest offer (wish he would have in hindsight). It's unusual but it happens.
Yes, free agents often take the biggest deal. How much more are the Sox going to have to offer than the next biggest competitor for Machado or Harper to take a massive leap of faith?
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If you didn't mean "all the time" you should have said something else. Lester didn't take the biggest deal. Heyward didn't take his biggest offer (wish he would have in hindsight). It's unusual but it happens.
Yes, free agents often take the biggest deal. How much more are the Sox going to have to offer than the next biggest competitor for Machado or Harper to take a massive leap of faith?
Ha. Ok then. Heyward got opt outs from the Cubs which added non monetary value to his deal that the Cards didn't add if I am remembering correctly. That is still value, and will almost certainly pertain to Harper. Thats why front loading the deal could be a factor. Heyward took the deal that gave him the most value.
How about this. When a player has the opportunity to sign a deal that will make him one of the 5 or so highest paid players in the game they sign with the highest bidder, but without regard to record.
The top 3 ever, the ones most similar to Harper or Machado:
Arod to Texas. Terrible record the previous year. Left a competitice team. Record not a factor.
Pujols to the Angels. They were good. So were the Cards. Angels offered more money. Record not a factor.
Cano to the M's. 20 games under. Record not a factor. Left a competitive team.
Cano and Pujols' deals are the same terms.
Record doesn't matter when the deal is of this magnitude.
Your examples are the ones that are anecdotal and exceptions.
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I mean, you're right. But when the biggest knock on Harper is that he isn't Trout, well that alone speaks pretty highly of him.
The other obvious problem with you statement, is well, the Sox can't sign Trout. For any amount right now. They could theoretically sign Harper. He is also, again, theoretically, just entering his prime.
The problem with the Stanton contract being comparable is the simple fact that Stanton was not a free agent. His was signed as an extension, with out competition factoring into the contract. So just with that, it is a different situation.
In his 10 most comparable hitters by age, are names like Griffey Jr., Frank Robinson, Mike Trout, Eddie Mathews, Miguel Cabrera and Tony Conigliaro. That's 5 Hall of Famers ( 2 future, but basically sure things, and top caliber HOF-ers at that), and a career tragically cut short. Others on the list include Andruw Jones and Justin Upton.
Even with that, it is almost certain the team that signs Harper will overpay for him. Where the Sox are right, now, I'm ok with that. I think they should front load a deal because they have basically no commitments on the books right now. Front load it so in years 7-8-9 and however long after you aren't in a Pujols situation. Front load it to make it more attractive. That is a card the Sox can play that other franchises may not be able to match.
It was more of a wild thought process of why this unprecedented money is being looked at for Harper and is it warranted. Not a reflection of organization or need.
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Guilty of saying the quiet parts out loud. Not everyone in MLB management thinks this way, but I'd bet that there are more that think the MLB is a machine that will survive whatever labor issues they face.
As other labor stoppages in sports have shown, he's wrong.
He's 100% correct. The game will go on regardless. If all of these players quit, there would still be interest in the game, kids would still play it and the game would be as good as ever shortly (though probably closer to 7 or 8 years than 3). Players come and go but the game goes on.
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The White Sox approach is similar to what you see NFL teams doing with QB’s on rookie deals. The Bears trading for Mack is a perfect example. The Sox have a bunch of hopefully good young players who won’t hit free agency until the mid 2020’s. They have an incredibly low future payroll commitment with their current roster. If they think they can contend in 2020 with their young guys, and you have in the open market two star players in their prime, at positions of need, do everything you can to go get them. Eventually you’re going to want to go out and get someone of a Harper/Machado caliber.
The Sox could offer 10/350 to both guys, and front load $50 mil in year one to both, and stay under the tax.
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Barry Bonds to the Giants (72-win team previous season)
Randy Johnson to the D-Backs (65 wins)
Carlos Beltran to the Mets (76 wins)
Roger Clemens to the Blue Jays (76 wins)
I also doubt Harper ends up on the South Side, but it won't be because they had a bad record last year.
A few more
Nationals signed Werth
Padres signed Hosmer
Mets signed Beltran
Tigers signed Pudge
Mariners signed Beltre
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Water coolers everywhere cower in fear https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2018/11/09/carlos-zambrano-says-he-wants-to-make-comeback/ (https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2018/11/09/carlos-zambrano-says-he-wants-to-make-comeback/)
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He's 100% correct. The game will go on regardless. If all of these players quit, there would still be interest in the game, kids would still play it and the game would be as good as ever shortly (though probably closer to 7 or 8 years than 3). Players come and go but the game goes on.
I have to disagree with this. If there were replacement players, even guys in the minors right now, it would be rough for a couple years. Interest would drop, as the skill level dropped. It would take a long time to recover. Financially it would really suffer.
And some of these players clearly are not replaceable. Trout is a once every 50 years type of talent. Same with Kershaw. The guys that are the 26th-30th guys on the roster would be the best players in the game that would lead to less interest, I know it would for me, and I am a pretty die hard baseball fan. Have you ever watched even a AA game? It is rough baseball in a lot of ways.
Players come and go, but it is a cycle. They aren't replaced. Ruth and Gehrig gave way to Williams, Musial and DiMaggio, who gave way to Mantle, Mays, Robinson and Aaron. They gave way to Yaz and Bench, to Schmidt, Yount, and Ripken. To Bonds, Sosa (double ick) Griffey, Thomas, Mcgwire and Thome. To Jeter, Vlad, and Miggy. To Trout and Harper. To Acuna, Soto and Vlad Jr. The same could be said on the pitching side.
Baseball is the players. They aren't even close to replaceable. It is the great players and the transcendent talents that draw you in. It is Arenado playing 3rd. Scherzer dominating starts, and it is (I guess...) Baez being the most exciting tag slider around.
Will there be another generation of great players, yes, of course there will be. That doesn't mean these guys are replaceable. They influence the guys that will be behind them. They mentor and shape the guys that will become those stars. Baseball, more than any other sport is connected to its past greats, their achievements are still hallowed, their names still revered.
Eh, maybe I'm wrong and I'm just too sentimental about it. But to say every player could be replaced in 2-3 years, even to say the game would be just as good in 10 years, seems like ignorance and hubris all in one.
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To be honest, I don't think baseball players draw people in like they used to. I think that's why the national numbers are way down. Before he was traded to Milwaukee last year, Christian Yelich could have walked into my house and sat on my couch and I would have had no idea who he was. I knew the name, but don't recall ever seeing him play.
NBA Basketball is still very much a player-driven sport. But I think outside of a few outliers, baseball, football and college basketball have become much more about the teams than the players. Unplug one...plug in another...life goes on.
So while I don't think James is "100% correct," I think he is about 90%.
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To be honest, I don't think baseball players draw people in like they used to. I think that's why the national numbers are way down. Before he was traded to Milwaukee last year, Christian Yelich could have walked into my house and sat on my couch and I would have had no idea who he was. I knew the name, but don't recall ever seeing him play.
NBA Basketball is still very much a player-driven sport. But I think outside of a few outliers, baseball, football and college basketball have become much more about the teams than the players. Unplug one...plug in another...life goes on.
So while I don't think James is "100% correct," I think he is about 90%.
Doesn't help that baseball does a sh!it job of marketing its one generational player and the best he can do/wants to do is market for Subway.
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Rumors abound that the Cubs are not only open to trading Bryant, but are "making an effort" to trade him.
My first thought here is that his shoulder must be a problem, I just don't understand why else they would shop him.
The initial report I saw I didn't mention because it was just a "there are not untouchables" deal, which doesn't mean much, but since there have been some report that it may be more than that.
I can't see it happening. Who knows though.
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Doesn't help that baseball does a sh!it job of marketing its one generational player and the best he can do/wants to do is market for Subway.
Trout is really good, but he isn't all that exciting. He makes a great catch now and then, but only 10-15 a year. That is another problem for the causal fan. Greatness in baseball is performing well more often than not over the long haul. When you watch Lebron, he may have an off night, but you can count on seeing him doing a few amazing things. Same with a great QB in football. Trout could easily go 0-3 with a walk or two and not have anything interesting hit to him. There's a good chance you won't see a great player do anything great at a random baseball game.
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Rumors abound that the Cubs are not only open to trading Bryant, but are "making an effort" to trade him.
My first thought here is that his shoulder must be a problem, I just don't understand why else they would shop him.
The initial report I saw I didn't mention because it was just a "there are not untouchables" deal, which doesn't mean much, but since there have been some report that it may be more than that.
I can't see it happening. Who knows though.
They know it's a long shot to re-sign him eventually. Rumors have been out there for a while that he's always been pissed about the service time issue, and he was going to 100% test the market when the time comes. Shoulder is probably an issue, but I'm personally not surprised by this news.
I can see the Cubs and Mets being trading partners here.
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Doesn't help that baseball does a sh!it job of marketing its one generational player and the best he can do/wants to do is market for Subway.
Trout, as good as he is at baseball, has all the charisma of a park bench. Add that to the fact that he plays on the #2 team in a West Coast city, and I have a hard time blaming baseball for the relative lack of attention Trout receives.
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To be honest, I don't think baseball players draw people in like they used to. I think that's why the national numbers are way down.
Except the national numbers aren't really way down. The World Series was down this year, but that's in comparison to the 2016 and 2017 numbers, which were the highest in more than a decade. This year's numbers were very much on par with what baseball has seen for most of the past 10-12 years.
And national regular season ratings on Fox and ESPN have been on the rise the past two (plus?) years.
Now, if you want to say they're way down compared with two decades ago, that's true. There's all sorts of reasons for that (fragmentation of the audience, way more entertainment options, cord-cutting, etc.), beyond how much baseball players themselves draw people in.
So while I don't think James is "100% correct," I think he is about 90%.
Sure, if sports fans across the nation suffered collective amnesia, he'd be right. But since that's not likely, most fans would remember the players who are gone, recognize that what's on the field is an inferior product and turn away in droves. Like in 1987, when football fans stayed away en masse from the NFL's replacement games.
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They know it's a long shot to re-sign him eventually. Rumors have been out there for a while that he's always been pissed about the service time issue, and he was going to 100% test the market when the time comes. Shoulder is probably an issue, but I'm personally not surprised by this news.
I can see the Cubs and Mets being trading partners here.
This seems much ado about nothing. Epstein was asked if he considered Bryant and Rizzo "untouchables" for trades and he said words to the effect of, "I've never considered a player untouchable and I'm not going to do that now."
That somehow has been spun into "The Cubs will consider trading Bryant." I mean, that's not totally wrong, but it's awfully misleading.
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From Paul Sullivan:
While anything can happen, Epstein on Friday downplayed the rumor that Bryant was available via trade trade Bryant.
“I answered a general question about whether we have untouchables,” the Cubs president said. “Like most every organization, we will listen to anything, but that’s just an operating philosophy.
“We are lucky to have some impact players and we are looking to add to them, not subtract.”
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Sure, if sports fans across the nation suffered collective amnesia, he'd be right. But since that's not likely, most fans would remember the players who are gone, recognize that what's on the field is an inferior product and turn away in droves. Like in 1987, when football fans stayed away en masse from the NFL's replacement games.
But fans came back to the NFL. Remember James had a three year window. Would fans come back in three years? That's the question.
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But fans came back to the NFL. Remember James had a three year window. Would fans come back in three years? That's the question.
The fans came back when the same players came back. How long would it take to get the entire league back to the same level with all new players. 5 years? Probably too short, guys drafted out of college, high end ones, usually take 3 years or so to develop. Mid tier guys longer, HS guys longer still, international guys longer still. It may take 10 years or more the get the league to the talent level it is at now. Even without considering the All-Star level players.
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But fans came back to the NFL. Remember James had a three year window. Would fans come back in three years? That's the question.
Right ... because the real players came back. That's not what James is suggesting. He's suggesting the real players never come back and in three years major league parks are packed to see scabs.
I find that unlikely, sans collective amnesia. If it were the game itself that filled seats, and not seeing the best players in the world, minor league ballparks around the country will be packed. They're not, of course.
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Huh, does he have that reputation? I had no idea. It isn't like that has been his thing for like 20 years.
Buck, I am assuming teal here. My point was that some players sign with a team that offers less $ than another. Scott Boras clients do not - and they know that when they hire him.
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Buck, I am assuming teal here. My point was that some players sign with a team that offers less $ than another. Scott Boras clients do not - and they know that when they hire him.
Yes sir. Sorry for any ambiguity.
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This seems much ado about nothing. Epstein was asked if he considered Bryant and Rizzo "untouchables" for trades and he said words to the effect of, "I've never considered a player untouchable and I'm not going to do that now."
That somehow has been spun into "The Cubs will consider trading Bryant." I mean, that's not totally wrong, but it's awfully misleading.
Agree. He'll be traded in time, but it won't be this year. He will be one of the casualties of the fact that they can't pay all of their young guys.
With this many years of control left, I can't picture a package that would satisfy Theo
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Agree. He'll be traded in time, but it won't be this year. He will be one of the casualties of the fact that they can't pay all of their young guys.
With this many years of control left, I can't picture a package that would satisfy Theo
Eloy, Cease, Rose and Flete?
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They know it's a long shot to re-sign him eventually. Rumors have been out there for a while that he's always been pissed about the service time issue, and he was going to 100% test the market when the time comes. Shoulder is probably an issue, but I'm personally not surprised by this news.
I can see the Cubs and Mets being trading partners here.
Rumors abound that the Cubs are not only open to trading Bryant, but are "making an effort" to trade him.
My first thought here is that his shoulder must be a problem, I just don't understand why else they would shop him.
The initial report I saw I didn't mention because it was just a "there are not untouchables" deal, which doesn't mean much, but since there have been some report that it may be more than that.
I can't see it happening. Who knows though.
Great stuff, as usual.
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Great stuff, as usual.
Well, you have the stupid pissing matches covered, so I thought I would just relay stories that people that don't follow the offseason may have missed. Sorry it wasn't up to your standards.
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Well, you have the stupid pissing matches covered, so I thought I would just relay stories that people that don't follow the offseason may have missed. Sorry it wasn't up to your standards.
Come on - posting the Bryant stuff was laughable as was what Buster Olney turned an innocuous comment into. Pure clickbait.
You also got extra worked up about legitimate questions about the Sox pursuit of Harper and Machado. Maybe some of it was semantics but I wasn't trying to be a dick.
I've said it before that I think Hahn has done a really nice job so far but there's still a long way to go.
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Come on - posting the Bryant stuff was laughable as was what Buster Olney turned an innocuous comment into. Pure clickbait.
You also got extra worked up about legitimate questions about the Sox pursuit of Harper and Machado. Maybe some of it was semantics but I wasn't trying to be a dick.
I've said it before that I think Hahn has done a really nice job so far but there's still a long way to go.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/p0RDMJGgMXF96/giphy.gif)
This was a legitimate question? Hmmm. Weird.
Also not aware I got worked up. I pointed out, several times, how your "point" was completely null.
Also, I know the original story was clickbait, which is why I specifically said I didn't mention anything about it until there were other reports basically backing it up saying the Cubs were pursuing offers. But I should know by this point I won't have any sort of actual discussion with you.
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Great stuff, as usual.
Do you pay any attention to what’s going on in the background with the Cubs? Why do you think the Bryant info got leaked? Do you think it’s a coincidence the two leaked stories this offseason are “Bryant turns down $200 mil” and “Cubs may trade Bryant”? You’re not that obtuse of a poster, but if you can’t see what’s going on behind the scenes, I don’t know what to tell you.
Is he going to get traded this offseason? Who knows. Do I think he’ll be a Cub in 2022? No.
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Giants looking to dump Bumgarner, Brewers and Phillies said to be interested. I really hope the Brewers don't give up the farm for a one year rental.
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Giants looking to dump Bumgarner, Brewers and Phillies said to be interested. I really hope the Brewers don't give up the farm for a one year rental.
There are some real warning signs starting to creep up with MadBum too. He's been the most important piece to the Giants' awesome "every other year" streak, but a team expecting him to put them over the top in 2019 is going to be disappointed methinks.
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There are some real warning signs starting to creep up with MadBum too. He's been the most important piece to the Giants' awesome "every other year" streak, but a team expecting him to put them over the top in 2019 is going to be disappointed methinks.
Most importantly, what's the point in keeping Schoop if he can't relive his only good moment in a Brewers uniform.
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In regards to Amazon potentially picking up the regional Fox channels, I'm excited for the potential to get better access to Brewers games out of market.
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In regards to Amazon potentially picking up the regional Fox channels, I'm excited for the potential to get better access to Brewers games out of market.
MLB has by far the best access of anyone to out of town games. $100 / year for streaming both radio & tv. The app works really with my FireTV. Throw the VPN on if I need to change my market. NBA only gets you TV. NFL - well they suck completely. Bless Reddit Streams for NFL games.
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Giants looking to dump Bumgarner, Brewers and Phillies said to be interested. I really hope the Brewers don't give up the farm for a one year rental.
Yeah, the Brewers were a game from being in the World Series last year, this is not the time to recklessly go for it.
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Yeah, the Brewers were a game from being in the World Series last year, this is not the time to recklessly go for it.
Bold strategy Cotton.
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One of the most interesting issues with baseball free agency is the impact it is having on team identity and the face of a team in its region.
Maybe it is because I qualify as an old-timer, but every city had its superstar. The Cubs had Ernie Banks. The Cardinals had Stan Musial. The Yankees had Mickey Mantle. The Dodgers had... well, the Dodgers had boatloads. The Braves (Milwaukee and Atlanta) had Hank Aaron. And so on... These guys did winter road shows, they signed autographs and they did enough public relations to choke a horse. Heck, until he died, Ernie Banks was everywhere!
It's tough to identify with a baseball player now. Kris Bryant is a good point. The well has been so poisoned by the service time issues related to the Cubs that I see no way Bryant will be back after his contract expires. You don't forget stuff like that if you are a ballplayer. No one thought this kid could have been the next face of the franchise -- or they were too caught up in nickels and dimes to think that way.
Albert Pujos was even worse. The Cardinals offered him $200 million to play baseball in St. Louis. His nickname was el hombre and he was going to be on the same level with Stan the Man, who was an icon in St. Louis long after he retired. The Angels offered him $240 million to play in Orange County. So he leaves and his wife says goodbye by claiming the Cardinals disrespected she and her husband by not exceeding the Angels offer.
Every team has had this issue with at least one player. That's the hard part about baseball. It's about the players and their relationship with the community in which they play. That relationship really doesn't exist anymore.
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One of the most interesting issues with baseball free agency is the impact it is having on team identity and the face of a team in its region.
Maybe it is because I qualify as an old-timer, but every city had its superstar. The Cubs had Ernie Banks. The Cardinals had Stan Musial. The Yankees had Mickey Mantle. The Dodgers had... well, the Dodgers had boatloads. The Braves (Milwaukee and Atlanta) had Hank Aaron. And so on... These guys did winter road shows, they signed autographs and they did enough public relations to choke a horse. Heck, until he died, Ernie Banks was everywhere!
It's tough to identify with a baseball player now. Kris Bryant is a good point. The well has been so poisoned by the service time issues related to the Cubs that I see no way Bryant will be back after his contract expires. You don't forget stuff like that if you are a ballplayer. No one thought this kid could have been the next face of the franchise -- or they were too caught up in nickels and dimes to think that way.
Albert Pujos was even worse. The Cardinals offered him $200 million to play baseball in St. Louis. His nickname was el hombre and he was going to be on the same level with Stan the Man, who was an icon in St. Louis long after he retired. The Angels offered him $240 million to play in Orange County. So he leaves and his wife says goodbye by claiming the Cardinals disrespected she and her husband by not exceeding the Angels offer.
Every team has had this issue with at least one player. That's the hard part about baseball. It's about the players and their relationship with the community in which they play. That relationship really doesn't exist anymore.
Is this a post from 1978 or something?
The biggest problem with baseball is that it's become a regional sport instead of a national one. With all local games on TV, people watch their team and don't bother with the national broadcasts. So they really don't know much beyond the local.
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One of the most interesting issues with baseball free agency is the impact it is having on team identity and the face of a team in its region.
Maybe it is because I qualify as an old-timer, but every city had its superstar. The Cubs had Ernie Banks. The Cardinals had Stan Musial. The Yankees had Mickey Mantle. The Dodgers had... well, the Dodgers had boatloads. The Braves (Milwaukee and Atlanta) had Hank Aaron. And so on... These guys did winter road shows, they signed autographs and they did enough public relations to choke a horse. Heck, until he died, Ernie Banks was everywhere!
It's tough to identify with a baseball player now. Kris Bryant is a good point. The well has been so poisoned by the service time issues related to the Cubs that I see no way Bryant will be back after his contract expires. You don't forget stuff like that if you are a ballplayer. No one thought this kid could have been the next face of the franchise -- or they were too caught up in nickels and dimes to think that way.
Albert Pujos was even worse. The Cardinals offered him $200 million to play baseball in St. Louis. His nickname was el hombre and he was going to be on the same level with Stan the Man, who was an icon in St. Louis long after he retired. The Angels offered him $240 million to play in Orange County. So he leaves and his wife says goodbye by claiming the Cardinals disrespected she and her husband by not exceeding the Angels offer.
Every team has had this issue with at least one player. That's the hard part about baseball. It's about the players and their relationship with the community in which they play. That relationship really doesn't exist anymore.
Isn't this true for all sports in this age? IMO Free agency has allowed the players to get paid and like most humans they would rather work for the employer that pays best.
I'm OK with that, times change.
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Every team has had this issue with at least one player. That's the hard part about baseball. It's about the players and their relationship with the community in which they play. That relationship really doesn't exist anymore.
Let's not forget that teams have never had a problem severing the relationship between a player and the community in which he plays when injury, age or something else diminishes his performance.
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Let's not forget that teams have never had a problem severing the relationship between a player and the community in which he plays when injury, age or something else diminishes his performance.
Exactly. Curt Flood will be forever remembered as baseball's most important player - he made the players millionaires and (against their will) the stodgy old owners billionaires.
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Bold strategy Cotton.
Yeah, making a one year, 12 million dollar commitment to a guy that has been the best postseason pitcher in a generation is not the sort move that would benefit a team that is close to winning on World Series and on a budget.
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Yeah, making a one year, 12 million dollar commitment to a guy that has been the best postseason pitcher in a generation is not the sort move that would benefit a team that is close to winning on World Series and on a budget.
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/madison-bumgarner-wont-fetch-the-giants-that-much/ (https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/madison-bumgarner-wont-fetch-the-giants-that-much/)
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Lotta smoke that Schoop gets non-tendered tomorrow. Pretty interesting decision with good arguments on either side. While frustrating, I think you let him go and sign one of the available FAs for cheaper $.
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I have to think the talk of Syndergaard getting traded is likely much ado about nothing, but if you can a deal headlined by Hiura, Peralta and a couple of high prospects not named Burnes or Woodruff, you make the choice to gut the farm*
*Unless there are grumblings of injury concerns
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I have to think the talk of Syndergaard getting traded is likely much ado about nothing, but if you can a deal headlined by Hiura, Peralta and a couple of high prospects not named Burnes or Woodruff, you make the choice to gut the farm*
*Unless there are grumblings of injury concerns
Syndergaard is a trade I can stomach a lot better. I think he's better than Bumgarner at this point and controllable for awhile.
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Syndergaard is a trade I can stomach a lot better. I think he's better than Bumgarner at this point and controllable for awhile.
I'm really curious what the return is if the Mets deal Syndergaard and the Indians follow through with dealing Kluber, Carrasco, or Bauer. Thor's got three Arb years left and made $3M last year. Kluber has 2 years $31M, Carrasco has 2 yrs $19M, and Bauer has two Arb years left and made $6.5M last year. There are good arguments for any of the four of those guys being the most valuable (except maybe Carrasco, though he's probably the least risky in that he's neither the most expensive nor the most volatile (injuries/performance).
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Syndergaard is a trade I can stomach a lot better. I think he's better than Bumgarner at this point and controllable for awhile.
The years of control likely means that he costs a lot more. Also the reports are that the Mets aren't just looking for prospect return, but for young major league players, so their ask would probably start with Woodruff or Burnes, and likely Hiura and Turang as well.
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The years of control likely means that he costs a lot more. Also the reports are that the Mets aren't just looking for prospect return, but for young major league players, so their ask would probably start with Woodruff or Burnes, and likely Hiura and Turang as well.
Maybe I'm just paranoid, but the Mets trading a bunch of prospects for Cano and Diaz, only to also trade away Syndergaard, suggests to me they don't trust Syndergaard's health.
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Wow, looks like the M's are kicking on 60 million for Cano, as well as taking on the contracts of Bruce and Swarzak.
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I have to think the talk of Syndergaard getting traded is likely much ado about nothing, but if you can a deal headlined by Hiura, Peralta and a couple of high prospects not named Burnes or Woodruff, you make the choice to gut the farm*
*Unless there are grumblings of injury concerns
I am not interested in any trade involving Keston Hiura. Everyone else is fair game. I gotta imagine that Keon Broxton or Corey Ray is probably the best bat available.
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I am not interested in any trade involving Keston Hiura. Everyone else is fair game. I gotta imagine that Keon Broxton or Corey Ray is probably the best bat available.
I guess you never know, but I wouldn't guess that would be near enough for Syndergaard. Edwin Diaz looks likely to command 2 top 100 prospects. Syndergaard with 3 years remaining, you would think the deal Sale would be the reference, and he commanded 2 top 15 prospects, and 2 more guys as well.
Jose Quintana commanded the Cubs top hitting prospect as well as their top hitting prospect.
Really, if I am the Mets GM, I would start by asking for Hader and Hiura and two other prospects, obviously though Hader would be nearly untouchable. But thinking you could get Thor with a package built around Keon Broxton seems unrealistic. He is a guy that will be 29 next season and has a career OPS of .721
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Cubs tender a contract to Addison Russell.
Maybe they can trade and get Chapman back as well. Maybe hire Lenny Dykstra since they are short of coaches.
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Cubs tender a contract to Addison Russell.
Maybe they can trade and get Chapman back as well. Maybe hire Lenny Dykstra since they are short of coaches.
Not a good look for the Cubs at all.
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I like flipping Navarez when his value is high for a very solid reliever in Colome.
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Mariners havin themselves a good ol fashioned fire sale, aina? Not a ton of pieces left, but Wade LeBlanc and Marco Gonzalez could really help some teams. Mitch Haniger is pretty good. Healy and Seager can hit the ball real far, but have a ton of empty at bats. Dee Gordon is going to be to them what Starlin Castro is to the Marlins.
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The Mets want Major League bats. For Syndergaard, would they consider a package of Schoop, Thames and Broxton or Santana?
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I like flipping Navarez when his value is high for a very solid reliever in Colome.
Me too. Sox either have a reasonably priced closer for 3 years or someone to flip at the deadline for a guy who can hit a little but is pretty bad behind the plate.
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Me too. Sox either have a reasonably priced closer for 3 years or someone to flip at the deadline for a guy who can hit a little but is pretty bad behind the plate.
Yeah, nice return for him I think. The pen is always an area of need. I hope they have a plan to fill Avi's spot that is better than Delmonico.
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Not a good look for the Cubs at all.
But will their fans give him a standing ovation?
(http://media.tenor.com/images/b5f9f16299e04da139c3aa1adac60d20/tenor.gif)
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Brewers officially non-tender Schoop, Cedeno and Jennings.
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But will their fans give him a standing ovation?
(http://media.tenor.com/images/b5f9f16299e04da139c3aa1adac60d20/tenor.gif)
He's not white
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The Mets want Major League bats. For Syndergaard, would they consider a package of Schoop, Thames and Broxton or Santana?
You can't get talent for scraps. That wouldn't get you Jason Vargas.
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Brewers officially non-tender Schoop, Cedeno and Jennings.
Probably the right call on Schoop. He was slated to earn $10M-ish in his last arb year. Keeping him would have been succumbing to the sunk cost fallacy as much as anything. Higher floor 2B can be had this offseason for less money, and that's without considering the continuous flirtation with moving Shaw there.
I haven't been following Brew Crew Ball or the other blogs lately, but I'm a little more surprised at Cedeno and Jennings. Both are in their 30s and are what they are, but they were only going to earn like $2.5M between them.
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Cubs tender a contract to Addison Russell.
Maybe they can trade and get Chapman back as well. Maybe hire Lenny Dykstra since they are short of coaches.
Not a good look for the Cubs at all.
Did either of you read Epstein's statement on the decision?
But will their fans give him a standing ovation?
(http://media.tenor.com/images/b5f9f16299e04da139c3aa1adac60d20/tenor.gif)
No.
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Did either of you read Epstein's statement on the decision?
Yeah. It was PR schlock. Seriously, "we want to be part of the solution?"
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Yeah. It was PR schlock. Seriously, "we want to be part of the solution?"
So because you feel a statement was "PR schlock" the efforts to do more as an organization for that cause aren't worthwhile?
Seems idiotic.
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So because you feel a statement was "PR schlock" the efforts to do more as an organization for that cause aren't worthwhile?
Seems idiotic.
It’s just an organization saying the right things to justify its decision. It’s been done and said 100 times. There’s nothing special about it. Cubs don’t deserve any credit for it.
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Is this a post from 1978 or something?
The biggest problem with baseball is that it's become a regional sport instead of a national one. With all local games on TV, people watch their team and don't bother with the national broadcasts. So they really don't know much beyond the local.
Brother Sultan of SW Wisconsin, 1978 was a wonderful year. Except for that disgusting, disturbing Miami of Ohio debacle.
No, it is not a post from 1978. It is noting that baseball is about the players and the interconnection with the fans. I agree with another poster in this thread that it's a two-way street. The team has to ante up for the players. But the free agency has changed the game from a personal relationship with players who identify with a community to an institutional one.
Look, Marvin Miller was a genius. He taught the players that they really did have rights. And, yes, I am a Cardinals fan. And I rememebr Curt Flood like it was yesterday, as a center fielder who was one of the best in the business. I also know that Gussie Busch knew how to use the reserve clause to his advantage and I know he did to the detriment of Mr. Flood and other Cardinals of that era.
Bottom line: Free agency is necessary. But the relationship between the players and the community in which they play has been fractured, perhaps beyond repair. My Cardinals right now are trying like heck to find a way to sign Bryce Harper. They probably won't, particularly if Chicago or Los Angeles wants him. It's good for Mr. Harper. Probably not good for Washington baseball or the community that has invested their heart and soul in him.
Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio?
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It’s just an organization saying the right things to justify its decision. It’s been done and said 100 times. There’s nothing special about it. Cubs don’t deserve any credit for it.
You forget who you’re talking to.
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Yeah, nice return for him I think. The pen is always an area of need. I hope they have a plan to fill Avi's spot that is better than Delmonico.
Harper.
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It’s just an organization saying the right things to justify its decision. It’s been done and said 100 times. There’s nothing special about it. Cubs don’t deserve any credit for it.
The Cubs should have taken these steps in terms of working with the community and other organizations after acquiring Chapman. The organization certainly dropped the ball there.
Russell has also been a disappointment the last two years. The easiest thing to do would have been to cut bait and do nothing. I don't think this is a case of the organization doing whatever it can to justify retaining a star player. This is not sitting well in the media and with many fans and understandably so.
Russell is still on a zero tolerance policy and he may never play with the Cubs again and they'll still going to continue their efforts. Perhaps it came from mistakes the organization has made in the past but they're doing the right thing now. Better late than never.
You forget who you’re talking to.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/392439cf19e698d6fece11220e45a7e3/tenor.gif?itemid=4200659)
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I have no problem with keeping Russell. Though I think he's ss #3 on the team. I was fine with Chapman, I'll be fine when Kareem hunt returns.
Why?
Because it's baseball. I don't follow any of these guys personal lives, because I don't care about them at a personal level. Say I beat my girlfriend, sure I'm a scumbag in the social level and the eyes of law. But I don't lose my job over it. I think it should be the same here.
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I have no problem with keeping Russell. Though I think he's ss #3 on the team. I was fine with Chapman, I'll be fine when Kareem hunt returns.
Why?
Because it's baseball. I don't follow any of these guys personal lives, because I don't care about them at a personal level. Say I beat my girlfriend, sure I'm a scumbag in the social level and the eyes of law. But I don't lose my job over it. I think it should be the same here.
In some industries you do lose your job over it. Disappointed with the Cubs here.
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The Cubs should have taken these steps in terms of working with the community and other organizations after acquiring Chapman. The organization certainly dropped the ball there.
Russell has also been a disappointment the last two years. The easiest thing to do would have been to cut bait and do nothing. I don't think this is a case of the organization doing whatever it can to justify retaining a star player. This is not sitting well in the media and with many fans and understandably so.
Russell is still on a zero tolerance policy and he may never play with the Cubs again and they'll still going to continue their efforts. Perhaps it came from mistakes the organization has made in the past but they're doing the right thing now. Better late than never.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/392439cf19e698d6fece11220e45a7e3/tenor.gif?itemid=4200659)
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
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I appreciate the fact that Stearns took responsibility for the Schoop situation. His decision and he didn't let an ego allow him to compound the mistake. Plenty of cheaper viable options for the short term. Everyone gets a mulligan.
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Whatever helps you sleep at night.
I have no control over the decision. I would have had no issue if they non-tendered him. The team could have handled it better but they are doing something now.
I'm sure you're not aware of how much Cubs Charities does as well as individual players on their own.
Am I to not root for my favorite team because of this decision?
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The Cubs should have taken these steps in terms of working with the community and other organizations after acquiring Chapman. The organization certainly dropped the ball there.
Russell has also been a disappointment the last two years. The easiest thing to do would have been to cut bait and do nothing. I don't think this is a case of the organization doing whatever it can to justify retaining a star player. This is not sitting well in the media and with many fans and understandably so.
Russell is still on a zero tolerance policy and he may never play with the Cubs again and they'll still going to continue their efforts. Perhaps it came from mistakes the organization has made in the past but they're doing the right thing now. Better late than never.
If you want to give the Cubs credit for doing the absolute minimum, that's fine by me. Just don't expect others to be impressed.
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I appreciate the fact that Stearns took responsibility for the Schoop situation. His decision and he didn't let an ego allow him to compound the mistake. Plenty of cheaper viable options for the short term. Everyone gets a mulligan.
His comments were so great. When you play supermarket sweep at the deadline, you're going to have a miss or two, and he hit on literally every other move. Even at the time Schoop felt like the impulse buy when you're already in line at the register, but live and learn. Can't hit on em all, but each miss means heightens the stakes on the next move.
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I have no control over the decision. I would have had no issue if they non-tendered him. The team could have handled it better but they are doing something now.
I'm sure you're not aware of how much Cubs Charities does as well as individual players on their own.
Am I to not root for my favorite team because of this decision?
Hmmm, the Cubs are the only team with a charitable foundation and whose players donate money and their time? Wow, what a group.
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Hmmm, the Cubs are the only team with a charitable foundation and whose players donate money and their time? Wow, what a group.
Right. No professional athletes outside of Chicago do community service and donate money to charity.
The fact that Cubs fans claim this is the “tough route” and they’re doing this to make sure Russell gets the help he needs and that’s what the organization is about is hysterical. Maybe Theo will hit the streets of Chicago and sign every drug addict he can find to a contract in order to send them to rehab and clean up the city.
The Cubs made this move for one reason: they still hope the guy can someday contribute on the baseball field for them. To suggest anything else is beyond naive. Glad Theo gave such a nicely scripted statement on the situation though. What a dude.
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If you want to give the Cubs credit for doing the absolute minimum, that's fine by me. Just don't expect others to be impressed.
I don't expect anyone to be impressed. That was never the point.
If you think they're doing the absolute minimum you're absolutely wrong.
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Hmmm, the Cubs are the only team with a charitable foundation and whose players donate money and their time? Wow, what a group.
Hmmm, did I say or insinuate that?
Nope.
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Right. No professional athletes outside of Chicago do community service and donate money to charity.
The fact that Cubs fans claim this is the “tough route” and they’re doing this to make sure Russell gets the help he needs and that’s what the organization is about is hysterical. Maybe Theo will hit the streets of Chicago and sign every drug addict he can find to a contract in order to send them to rehab and clean up the city.
The Cubs made this move for one reason: they still hope the guy can someday contribute on the baseball field for them. To suggest anything else is beyond naive. Glad Theo gave such a nicely scripted statement on the situation though. What a dude.
Your hatred for the Cubs and Cubs fans consistently makes you look like a complete idiot.
It's amusing after you crapped out excuse after excuse for your redneck racist homophobe.
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I don't expect anyone to be impressed. That was never the point.
If you think they're doing the absolute minimum you're absolutely wrong.
You’re either incredibly naive or incredibly blinded by your fandom.
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Your hatred for the Cubs and Cubs fans consistently makes you look like a complete idiot.
It's amusing after you crapped out excuse after excuse for your redneck racist homophobe.
Lol. Never made an excuse for Hader other than he was a stupid teenager who made some unacceptable Tweets, which he was. And said every fan base in America would cheer on Hader. Which they would. And that people (okay, other than you, you came out of the womb perfectly mature) usually mature during and after their teen years.
But good comp. Teenager Tweeting and domestic violence. I’m the one who looks like an idiot. Lol.
Like I said, whatever helps you sleep at night big guy.
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/mlb/2018/12/1/18120804/addison-russell-theo-epstein-how-many-times-must-we-say-this-stuff
Good read. Has to be a blind Brewers fan writing this.
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Say I beat my girlfriend, sure I'm a scumbag in the social level and the eyes of law. But I don't lose my job over it. I think it should be the same here.
I don't think this statement is as true as you seem to think it is.
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I don't see how what Theo said makes any difference. His statement really doesn't say anything does it? It seems like corporate speak for using a lot of words to say nothing at all. "we have chosen to take action to try". What? That doesn't seem like it actually means anything. You would think in a prepared statement, if it were true, he would at least sort of reference what they were trying.
Another problem I have with the statement, is that the first part of the statement seems like, well, pride in Russell. Theo scouted him, traded for him and developed him into a champion. That's the beginning. Right there, Theo is telling you what is most important.
It is the actions that speak. The Chiefs cut an important part of their team this weekend because he assaulted a woman. The NFL, while it took a while, has gotten the message. The Cubs gave their well documented abuser a contract for next year. MLB has not. The "zero tolerance for domestic abuse" Astros, traded for an abuser, and made excuses because he was good, and fit their needs. The Cubs are trying to be a part of the solution, while trading for an abuser 2 years ago, now supporting another.
Sadly, though, I think this is how most, if not all teams would have proceeded. The only bright spot is that this, to me indicates, that no other teams were willing to trade for him.
Maybe their solution should be to send him to Rookie Ball. That might work. He'd still be highly paid, but it would be something.
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In much more fun baseball news, it seems like the much rumored and reported deal of Cano to the Mets is done.
Cano, Diaz, and 20 Million to the Mets for Swarzak(salary swap), Bruce(salary swap), Kelenec (Mets #3), Dunn (Mets 4) and Bautista.
The Mets already had to dump 2 contracts they signed last offseason, and are still burdened with some bad ones. Yikes.
Though Diaz is a complete stud as a closer, and it will be interesting to see how Cano plays, especially now that his secret to aging gracefully has been revealed and maybe removed.
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The Mariners appear set to continue their fire sale by dealing Segura to the Phillies.
I can't say I'm enjoying the talent influx to the NL from the AL this year:
Segura to Phils
Cano and Diaz to Mets
Donaldson to Braves
Richards to Padres
to name a few
Going the other way (NL to AL)
Jay Bruce to Ms
Tommy LaStella to Angels
It only means that the NL is getting stronger, deeper, and more competitive, while the AL becomes very top and bottom heavy. All the AL clubs (even the Indians!) know they can't beat the Red Sox, Astros, and Yankees, so why even try? It's becoming like the NBA's Eastern and Western conferences, especially when LeBron was the gatekeeper to the Finals out East. If you can't beat him, just tank and wait him out!
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Watching DiPoto run a fire sale is a thing to behold.
Also the Dodgers appear like theu4 are going to pursue Harper. Thay seems like his ideal fit, sad to say.
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Watching DiPoto run a fire sale is a thing to behold.
Also the Dodgers appear like theu4 are going to pursue Harper. Thay seems like his ideal fit, sad to say.
The Dodgers signing Harper would allow them to trade prospects for additional pieces then. Gives them more ammo.
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Nats aren’t messing around. They knew they could lose Harper and be fine.
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Nats aren’t messing around. They knew they could lose Harper and be fine.
Soto and Robles are a nice fall back.
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And now Goldy to the Cards. He's awesome, but I don't think I'd have made that deal - 5 years of team control on Luke Weaver is a heck of an asset.
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And now Goldy to the Cards. He's awesome, but I don't think I'd have made that deal - 5 years of team control on Luke Weaver is a heck of an asset.
Kelly may be a good piece in that trade as well, big move for the Cards though, they don't get much better than Goldschmidt. That is the middle-of-the-order bat they have needed for a while.
I also wouldn't be shocked if the Cards made it a priority to keep him in St. Louis. Who knows, and I'm sure he will test free agency, but still, they a year to sell him on the team.
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Kelly may be a good piece in that trade as well, big move for the Cards though, they don't get much better than Goldschmidt. That is the middle-of-the-order bat they have needed for a while.
I also wouldn't be shocked if the Cards made it a priority to keep him in St. Louis. Who knows, and I'm sure he will test free agency, but still, they a year to sell him on the team.
Goldschmidt is really good. But that's a lot to give up for one year of control.
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And now Goldy to the Cards.
It's a shame. I used to really like Paul Goldschmidt.
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Schoop to the twins for $7.5/1 yr.
Glad the crew non-tendered him.
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Red Sox sign Eovaldi to go along with Pearce to keep their postseason heroes. Their young cheap talent will be ready for free agency in the next couple years. I think they got a year or two and it has to fall apart. I love those three kids in the outfield and would hate to see any of them leave.
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Red Sox sign Eovaldi to go along with Pearce to keep their postseason heroes. Their young cheap talent will be ready for free agency in the next couple years. I think they got a year or two and it has to fall apart. I love those three kids in the outfield and would hate to see any of them leave.
Well, the Brewers will need a replacement for Braun about then...though we'd prefer to trade you middle reliever whose arm is falling off for one of them now.
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Former Halo (released in August), Luis Valbuena and former Pirate Jose Castillo were killed in car crash last night in Venezuela. Both only in their 30’s.
RIP.
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Former Halo (released in August), Luis Valbuena and former Pirate Jose Castillo were killed in car crash last night in Venezuela. Both only in their 30’s.
RIP.
That is tragic. Much too young.
Don't forget that Valbuena also played for the Cubs, Astros, Indians and Mariners. Castillo played for the Giants and Astros in addition to the Pirates.
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Chico replying to Chico - God I love Scoop!!!
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Chico replying to Chico - God I love Scoop!!!
On this we agree Lenny. Got a good laugh.
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Chico replying to Chico - God I love Scoop!!!
Who am I replying to? Sigh.....whatever....I hear that I am Billy Hoyle, too. I'm sure he is getting a kick out of the accusations as are the others.
Looks like Valbuena and Castillo were killed in a robbery gone wrong. Very sad. Not a lot of good things happening in Venezuela.
https://www.latimes.com/sports/angels/la-sp-luis-valbuena-20181206-story.html
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Winter Meetings are here! Anyone have any bold predictions?
I'm saying Realmuto goes to the Mets this week.
Bauer goes to the Dodgers.
and of course....
Harper to the White Sox on a completely outlandish deal.
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Winter Meetings are here! Anyone have any bold predictions?
I'm saying Realmuto goes to the Mets this week.
Bauer goes to the Dodgers.
and of course....
Harper to the White Sox on a completely outlandish deal.
Harper to Philly.
Machado to the Yankees.
Dallas Keuchel to the White Sox.
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Harold Baines has zero business being in the HOF.
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Harold Baines has zero business being in the HOF.
Amen!!
I don’t think he ever got even 10% of the vote.
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Harold Baines has zero business being in the HOF.
Holy cow, are you right. He's Dwight Evans if Dwight Evans couldn't play the field. Just a brutal choice. These committees feel like they have to elect somebody. I wouldn't have voted any of them in, but I could at least see someone like Albert Belle, who was a dominant player for a time, at least.
There are at least 20 better right fielders than Harold Baines who are not in the Hall He was a below average outfielder whose knees turned him into a DH. He had only two top 10 MVP voting finishes (10th in 1983 and 9th in 1985) and only two other seasons where he got so much as a vote.
I just don't get it at all. He topped out at 6% on the writers ballots. These committees are supposed to fix oversights. There was nothing about Harold Baines that was missed the first time around.
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I mean, I’m a White Sox fan, and I had to re-read Twitter when I saw the Baines news. I thought it was an Onion tweet.
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Harold Baines has zero business being in the HOF.
I'm happy he is in as he was always one of my favorite players. I would argue that the reason he never had an impact on the HOF ballot was because he was primarily a DH. DH is a position. It is a real thing. And Harold was the first great DH.
He is 34th all time in RBI, 46th all time in hits, and 65th all time in HRs and basically pioneered a position. He was a .290 hitter for over 11000 plate appearances.
He has more RBI than guys like Schmidt, Dawson, Stargell, McCovey and Killebrew.
The guy right in front of him on the hit list, is the Babe. Behind him, you will find names like Robinson, Griffey Jr, Dawson, Chipper, Gehrig, Banks and Vlad.
While he isn't the best guy in the HOF, he is far from the worst. His numbers fit in with some of the greatest hitters in the history of the game. Those numbers, 2866 Hits, 384 HRS, 488 2B, 1628 RBIs, aren't out of place in the Hall of Fame.
According to BBref, his 5 most similar hitters, are Tony Perez, Al Kaline, Dave Parker, Billy Williams and Dawson. If you are keeping score, 4 of those are HOF-ers. And really, none were known for their gloves.
I'm biased. I completely admit it. I am glad he is in. He was a great hitter. He was an All Star at age 40, and he did it putting up an OPS of .919, again --as a 40 year old. That is unreal. He was always one of my favorites. Always a tough out and a great AB.
Tip of the cap to Harold.
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Accumulation stats, especially when you don't play the field, really don't impress me from a HOF perspective. He was a very, very good player. But at no point when he was playing did I think he was HOF worthy - I don't recall anyone talking about him in that manner.
But you are right to tip your cap to him. He owes no one an explanation or an apology. He got in by the process the HOF created.
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Tru Blew Brue Krew have ta make a move at #2 position. Woodant bee a shocka if Real joins his bud in MKE, aina?
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Tru Blew Brue Krew have ta make a move at #2 position. Woodant bee a shocka if Real joins his bud in MKE, aina?
There's definitely a fit there, and I'm sure the Crew is sniffing around. Personally, I would rather see them use the trade capital elsewhere, but that's because I am biased against paying a premium for catchers. There seems to be more variability with hitting catchers than any other position. Not sure if that's because of the stress of the position or what.
I'd rather Stearns add Lucroy or Wieters to the catching rotation on the cheap. Giving up the compensatory picks to sign Grandal should be discounted out of hand. For what its worth, MLBTR projects Grandal to get $64M over 4 and Wilson Ramos to get $36M over 3. I would be shocked if either of those deals comes close to producing even value.
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I'm happy he is in as he was always one of my favorite players. I would argue that the reason he never had an impact on the HOF ballot was because he was primarily a DH. DH is a position. It is a real thing. And Harold was the first great DH.
.........
While I disagree with you on Baines, there is one former Sox player that should be in the Hall. He was hands down a better hitter than Baines and its not ebven close.
I'm talking about Dick Allen. Maybe the best eligible player who is not in the Hall (sorry, Albert Belle).
Wondering how you feel about Allen.
Also, would be interested in 82's opinion since he had the opportunity to vote for Allen.
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While I disagree with you on Baines, there is one former Sox player that should be in the Hall. He was hands down a better hitter than Baines and its not ebven close.
I'm talking about Dick Allen. Maybe the best eligible player who is not in the Hall (sorry, Albert Belle).
Wondering how you feel about Allen.
Also, would be interested in 82's opinion since he had the opportunity to vote for Allen.
In so many ways he is the opposite of Baines. While Baines didn't have the peaks of greatness, he was just good for 20 years. His career was a plateau that never moved much that yielded some big totals, which are the only thing Allen is missing.
Allen on the other hand, certainly had the years of greatness. And while he also lacked the valleys of performance, he didn't have the long lasting career of Baines. There is little doubt that he was a more feared and dangerous hitter than Harold, and really than pretty much any of his peers. I think the only thing keeping him out was missing a few more years. Like Baines, I think he was hurt by positional ambiguity. If he would have stuck at 3B, he would have been a no doubt HOF-er I think.
Quite honestly, I don't have the same connection to Allen that I do to Baines for a couple reasons, first of all, he was on the Sox for just a few years (including his MVP caompaign), and his career was over before I was born. So while I know the lore of Dick Allen, and I know he was the guy my Dad always compared Frank to, I never watched him play, while Baines was one of my favorites as a kid, so I certainly didn't have the same emotional attachment. Though if they were hitting back to back in a lineup, I'm not sure how I'd go. Allen is certainly the more dangerous of the two, he was also the much more likely to K. He K'd more than Baines, in 3500 fewer ABs. I think it would depend entirely on the situation.
As for the statement "best player not in the HOF, well, that is very interesting. Allen would certainly have a strong case there. He certainly has the accolades and the hardware to back that up, as well as some pretty strong numbers. The only other guy that comes to mind is Dale Murphy, whose numbers aren't quite as strong but had the 2 MVPs. Very interesting indeed...
All in all, very difficult for me to compare them, since I just didn't have the opportunity to really experience Allen.
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Brewers have been linked to both Moustakas and Daniel Murphy.
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While I disagree with you on Baines, there is one former Sox player that should be in the Hall. He was hands down a better hitter than Baines and its not ebven close.
I'm talking about Dick Allen. Maybe the best eligible player who is not in the Hall (sorry, Albert Belle).
Wondering how you feel about Allen.
Also, would be interested in 82's opinion since he had the opportunity to vote for Allen.
My first year as a Hall voter (1996) coincided with Allen's next-to-last year on the ballot. I could lie to you and say I voted for him, or I didn't vote for him, but honestly I do not remember if I did or didn't. It was a long time ago, and I didn't save my ballots.
Also, his career ended in 1977, when I was still in high school in Connecticut. I honestly don't remember him much as a ballplayer. I see his stats and I heard the stories. Sounds like he was a hell of a ballplayer and a very interesting character.
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My first year as a Hall voter (1996) coincided with Allen's next-to-last year on the ballot. I could lie to you and say I voted for him, or I didn't vote for him, but honestly I do not remember if I did or didn't. It was a long time ago, and I didn't save my ballots.
Also, his career ended in 1977, when I was still in high school in Connecticut. I honestly don't remember him much as a ballplayer. I see his stats and I heard the stories. Sounds like he was a hell of a ballplayer and a very interesting character.
Excuse me if I missed this story somewhere else, but how did you manage to become a Hall voter, 82?
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In Chicago, ya vote early and often, hey?
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Excuse me if I missed this story somewhere else, but how did you manage to become a Hall voter, 82?
In a former life, I was a sportswriter.
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I'm happy he is in as he was always one of my favorite players. I would argue that the reason he never had an impact on the HOF ballot was because he was primarily a DH. DH is a position. It is a real thing. And Harold was the first great DH.
He is 34th all time in RBI, 46th all time in hits, and 65th all time in HRs and basically pioneered a position. He was a .290 hitter for over 11000 plate appearances.
He has more RBI than guys like Schmidt, Dawson, Stargell, McCovey and Killebrew.
The guy right in front of him on the hit list, is the Babe. Behind him, you will find names like Robinson, Griffey Jr, Dawson, Chipper, Gehrig, Banks and Vlad.
While he isn't the best guy in the HOF, he is far from the worst. His numbers fit in with some of the greatest hitters in the history of the game. Those numbers, 2866 Hits, 384 HRS, 488 2B, 1628 RBIs, aren't out of place in the Hall of Fame.
According to BBref, his 5 most similar hitters, are Tony Perez, Al Kaline, Dave Parker, Billy Williams and Dawson. If you are keeping score, 4 of those are HOF-ers. And really, none were known for their gloves.
I'm biased. I completely admit it. I am glad he is in. He was a great hitter. He was an All Star at age 40, and he did it putting up an OPS of .919, again --as a 40 year old. That is unreal. He was always one of my favorites. Always a tough out and a great AB.
Tip of the cap to Harold.
Harold Baines wasn't a great DH. He only won one Silver Slugger, which means only once was he the best DH.
His career totals are solid, because he played 22 years. He has a lot of RBIs but he only drove in 100 three times in 22 years. He has a lot of hits but he never got 200 in a season and only got more than 175 once. Never scored 90 runs (more than 80 only twice), never hit 30 HRs (hit more than 25 only once), reached 30 doubles only once. Wasn't a good base runner. Offered nothing on defense even when he could go out there. Led the league in anything only once in his career (SLG). He’s a DH who wasn’t a great hitter.
He's a good hitter who lasted a long time. He's a good player who had a wonderful career but nothing like a Hall of Fame career.
Dick Allen is a Hall of Famer in my book. He's hit by a double whammy statistically in that he had a relatively short career and played during the worst period for offense in MLB history outside the deadball era so his numbers are less impressive. He has 20 more career WAR than does Baines in 9 less seasons. He's got an MVP.
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White Sox add a reliable bottom-of-the-rotation stater in Ivan Nova. A bit of an upgrade from Shields, one could say, but only one year left on his (very reasonable) deal.
https://www.dailyherald.com/sports/20181211/white-sox-acquire-nova-in-trade-with-pirates
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White Sox add a reliable bottom-of-the-rotation stater in Ivan Nova. A bit of an upgrade from Shields, one could say, but only one year left on his (very reasonable) deal.
https://www.dailyherald.com/sports/20181211/white-sox-acquire-nova-in-trade-with-pirates
Yeah, a bit of a whatever move. Needed someone to eat some innings. Seems like a choice.
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Harold Baines wasn't a great DH. He only won one Silver Slugger, which means only once was he the best DH.
His career totals are solid, because he played 22 years. He has a lot of RBIs but he only drove in 100 three times in 22 years. He has a lot of hits but he never got 200 in a season and only got more than 175 once. Never scored 90 runs (more than 80 only twice), never hit 30 HRs (hit more than 25 only once), reached 30 doubles only once. Wasn't a good base runner. Offered nothing on defense even when he could go out there. Led the league in anything only once in his career (SLG). He’s a DH who wasn’t a great hitter.
He's a good hitter who lasted a long time. He's a good player who had a wonderful career but nothing like a Hall of Fame career.
Dick Allen is a Hall of Famer in my book. He's hit by a double whammy statistically in that he had a relatively short career and played during the worst period for offense in MLB history outside the deadball era so his numbers are less impressive. He has 20 more career WAR than does Baines in 9 less seasons. He's got an MVP.
I agree, he belongs in the Hall of Very Good
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Brewers make their first move, trading their competitive balance pick for three relatively affordable years of Alex Claudio (projects at $1.3M in arbitration this year).
This is an interesting move because it sets the market for trading competitive balance picks, no? I think teams have only been able to do that for a few years, and I'm not aware of any other "1 pick for 1 player" straight up deals. The pick was the 39th overall in the upcoming draft.
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Brewers make their first move, trading their competitive balance pick for three relatively affordable years of Alex Claudio (projects at $1.3M in arbitration this year).
This is an interesting move because it sets the market for trading competitive balance picks, no? I think teams have only been able to do that for a few years, and I'm not aware of any other "1 pick for 1 player" straight up deals. The pick was the 39th overall in the upcoming draft.
At face, it felt like a lot for a LOOGY. But he's been very good in that role and he has a lot of team control. That pick would likely not be MLB ready for 4+ years; Claudio has 3 years of control.
Stearns is very aware what this team's window is
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At face, it felt like a lot for a LOOGY. But he's been very good in that role and he has a lot of team control. That pick would likely not be MLB ready for 4+ years; Claudio has 3 years of control.
Stearns is very aware what this team's window is
And recall that Stearns didn't tender a couple lefties.
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You've been saying for a year they were gonna pull out all the stops.
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Claudio is s very smart pick up. Very reasonable deal.
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Well, sacrificing Alex Call to land Machdado and/or Grandal would be a small price to pay.
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The old Wally Ellenson strategy from Rick Hahn.
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Claudio is s very smart pick up. Very reasonable deal.
I certainly have no objection, though both glow and MLBTR made some interesting points. To glow’s point, Claudio has a very similar contract situation to Jennings and Cedeno (Claudio has two extra years of team control), so Stearns must think Claudio +2 years is “40th overall pick in the draft better” than those guys.
MLBTR made the point that experienced college relievers who can be pretty close to MLB ready will be available in the compensatory rounds. With the extra control those options would bring, again, Stearns must think Claudio is head and shoulders better.
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The old Wally Ellenson strategy from Rick Hahn.
5 years of Grandal + 10 years of Machado > 1 year of Henry.
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5 years of Grandal + 10 years of Machado > 1 year of Henry.
Not sure Grandal is in the plans, they signed McCann, and have Castillo, not that either are great, but they also have Zavala and Collins in the wings, and Grandal would cost a draft pick.
And while I liked Call, he as what 8th on the Sox minor league OF depth chart? It would have been legitimately difficult to get him ABs this year in Birmingham or Charlotte.
Also in the catching market, it seems like the Marlins may have over played their hands, as it looks like the most aggressive suitor for Realmuto (the Mets) have moved on to Wilson Ramos. It also sounds like the Braves are out because of the Marlins demands, this may end up working in the Brewers favor, as they are interested and competitors keep dropping out.
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Dick Allen won't be HOF. Ever.
I remember him well as a Phillie, Cardinal and Dodger. I believe he also played for the White Sox, but I'm old enough I remember him more as a Phillie.
He certainly has the creds for the Hall of fame but he'll never get there. What people do not understand about Dick Allen was that he was extremely outspoken in his Phillie days. He alienated people and in a period where civil rights was far from a foregone conclusion, Allen did not get the best press in the world. That press followed him throughout his career.
Allen also played for crappy teams for the bulk of his career. The Phillies in the 1960s categorically stank. The 1970 St. Louis Cardinals were a transitional club in which the fading remnants of their 1964 and 1967 World Championships and 1968 National League Championship were a shadow of their former selves. The early 1970s Dodgers were pre-Steve Garvey, Davey Lopes, Ron Cey and Bill Russell and were an up-and-coming shadow against the Big Red Machine teams. And the Sox just stank. It's hard for any great player on bad teams to be noticed for the Hall.
Nope, Dick/Richie Allen will not be an HOFer.
P.S. -- How about that Goldschmidt trade, Cub fans. There's a rather nasty redbird in your rear view mirror now and he's pretty angry!
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Not sure Grandal is in the plans, they signed McCann, and have Castillo, not that either are great, but they also have Zavala and Collins in the wings, and Grandal would cost a draft pick.
And while I liked Call, he as what 8th on the Sox minor league OF depth chart? It would have been legitimately difficult to get him ABs this year in Birmingham or Charlotte.
Also in the catching market, it seems like the Marlins may have over played their hands, as it looks like the most aggressive suitor for Realmuto (the Mets) have moved on to Wilson Ramos. It also sounds like the Braves are out because of the Marlins demands, this may end up working in the Brewers favor, as they are interested and competitors keep dropping out.
There have always been legit questions about Collins remaining behind the plate and he's done little in the minors so far to answer those. His future may be at 1B. McCann is a backup. Zavala has some upside, but I don't see him as nearly enough of a sure thing that you pass on Grandal, if you can get him for a reasonable deal.
As for Call ... 8th on the depth chart might be generous. Jiminez, Robert, Rutherford, Gonzalez, Adolfo, Walker, Basabe, Weaver and Booker, and that's not including mid 20s AAA/AAAA guys like Thompson, Cordell, Engel, Delmonico and Tilson, etc.
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There have always been legit questions about Collins remaining behind the plate and he's done little in the minors so far to answer those. His future may be at 1B. McCann is a backup. Zavala has some upside, but I don't see him as nearly enough of a sure thing that you pass on Grandal, if you can get him for a reasonable deal.
As for Call ... 8th on the depth chart might be generous. Jiminez, Robert, Rutherford, Gonzalez, Adolfo, Walker, Basabe, Weaver and Booker, and that's not including mid 20s AAA/AAAA guys like Thompson, Cordell, Engel, Delmonico and Tilson, etc.
Made 8th up off the top of my head, didn't mean it literally, but I guess it would be pretty close.
As for Collins, the Sox seem pretty sold on him catching, and do point to improvements this year, but who knows. I'm not a big Grandal fan, anyways.
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Made 8th up off the top of my head, didn't mean it literally, but I guess it would be pretty close.
As for Collins, the Sox seem pretty sold on him catching, and do point to improvements this year, but who knows. I'm not a big Grandal fan, anyways.
Yeah, sorry, didn't mean to knock your ranking. Just trying to point out (poorly, it seems) how little the Sox gave up in the deal from an organizational standpoint.
I know the Sox want Collins to catch, but I'm just not seeing it. 29 passed balls the past two seasons (that's Gary Sanchez-esque). And threw out only 29 percent of base stealers last year.
I hope you're right, but I'm not yet convinced.
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Grandal might've had 29 past balls in the Brewers series alone...and he only caught in like 2 of the 7 games!
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Grandal might've had 29 past balls in the Brewers series alone...and he only caught in like 2 of the 7 games!
He had NO bat in the playoffs either
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He had NO bat in the playoffs either
Yup. He was absolutely horrendous.
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He had NO bat in the playoffs either
I'm not a huge Grandal fan, either, but per Fangraghs he had a 3.6 WAR last year - #2 among all catchers behind only JT Realmuto. All other catchers were below 2.0.
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Normally, I'd say Ramos netting $9.5 AAV would be very good news for Grandal, but with the way he played in the postseason, the QO and related draft pick could really depress his value
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I'm not a huge Grandal fan, either, but per Fangraghs he had a 3.6 WAR last year - #2 among all catchers behind only JT Realmuto. All other catchers were below 2.0.
I just don't think he is going to be worth it. He is already 30, catchers don't typically age gracefully, and he has a lot of warts to his game already. Decent power, and decent BBs, but not much else offensively, and defensively, while he grades out ok on most things, that playoff display was concerning.
He turned down the 18 mil (almost) QO, so he is looking for big money and will cost a draft pick. I wouldn't touch him.
And by the way, Wilson Ramos put up over 2 fWAR last year, and over 3 bWAR, and missed some time with injury.
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Sox meeting with Manny today. Antics and lack of hustle be damned. This guy is a perfect fit for the Sox organization right now. Hope Rick had his powerpoint in order.
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Sox meeting with Manny today. Antics and lack of hustle be damned. This guy is a perfect fit for the Sox organization right now. Hope Rick had his powerpoint in order.
It's probably just one slide with a picture of AJ Pierzynski
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It's probably just one slide with a picture of AJ Pierzynski
If that were the case, I think we would have heard that he was already signed.
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Probably a good time for the Cubs to finally move on from the Addison Russell experience.
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Probably a good time for the Cubs to finally move on from the Addison Russell experience.
That was the Cubs attempt to help Addison refrain from spending his money too quickly. Pay the guy his millions in change.
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Sox meeting with Manny today. Antics and lack of hustle be damned. This guy is a perfect fit for the Sox organization right now. Hope Rick had his powerpoint in order.
My goodness it would be infuriating for me to root for a guy like that. This is a guy who couldn't be bothered to run out a gap shot in a one run game with his team down 2 games to none IN THE WORLD SERIES WHILE HE WAS SHOWCASING HIMSELF FOR HIS NEXT CONTRACT turning an easy stand-up double into a single. There is no reason on Earth to expect him to hustle once he gets his money.
As good as he is, I don't think I'd want him on my team. That kind of stuff rubs off when it is your alpha dog that plays like that. I do understand that he brings so much value that many/most would be willing to ignore the lack of hustle.
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My goodness it would be infuriating for me to root for a guy like that. This is a guy who couldn't be bothered to run out a gap shot in a one run game with his team down 2 games to none IN THE WORLD SERIES WHILE HE WAS SHOWCASING HIMSELF FOR HIS NEXT CONTRACT turning an easy stand-up double into a single. There is no reason on Earth to expect him to hustle once he gets his money.
As good as he is, I don't think I'd want him on my team. That kind of stuff rubs off when it is your alpha dog that plays like that. I do understand that he brings so much value that many/most would be willing to ignore the lack of hustle.
Am I wrong in remembering you are a Red Sox fan? Didn't you have a similar Manny? One that not only didn't hustle, but couldn't be bothered to play defense. Did you cheer for the WS he delivered?
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Am I wrong in remembering you are a Red Sox fan? Didn't you have a similar Manny? One that not only didn't hustle, but couldn't be bothered to play defense. Did you cheer for the WS he delivered?
Yeah, but Manny Ramirez antics were cheeky and fun.
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My goodness it would be infuriating for me to root for a guy like that. This is a guy who couldn't be bothered to run out a gap shot in a one run game with his team down 2 games to none IN THE WORLD SERIES WHILE HE WAS SHOWCASING HIMSELF FOR HIS NEXT CONTRACT turning an easy stand-up double into a single. There is no reason on Earth to expect him to hustle once he gets his money.
As good as he is, I don't think I'd want him on my team. That kind of stuff rubs off when it is your alpha dog that plays like that. I do understand that he brings so much value that many/most would be willing to ignore the lack of hustle.
I have a very hard time buying the notion that a four-time all-star, two time Gold Glove winner, who's missed 11 games in the past four years and compiled a 33+ WAR by his 26th birthday is some sort of malcontent who doesn't care or put out effort between the lines.
Baseball is hard. Being great at multiple aspects of the game is really hard. Players don't get as good as Machado without trying hard.
Waaayyyy too much has been made out of one offhand comment made out of frustration. The guy's career speaks for itself.
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Am I wrong in remembering you are a Red Sox fan? Didn't you have a similar Manny? One that not only didn't hustle, but couldn't be bothered to play defense. Did you cheer for the WS he delivered?
I am a Red Sox fan. Not sure what you mean by couldn't be bothered playing defense. He was terrible at it, but I never got the impression he wasn't trying while he was out there. I don't remember him not hustling all that much, either. Ortiz was one who didn't hustle all the time (and I didn't like it), mostly at the end with his bad feet. And he hustled always in the postseason.
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I have a very hard time buying the notion that a four-time all-star, two time Gold Glove winner, who's missed 11 games in the past four years and compiled a 33+ WAR by his 26th birthday is some sort of malcontent who doesn't care or put out effort between the lines.
Baseball is hard. Being great at multiple aspects of the game is really hard. Players don't get as good as Machado without trying hard.
Waaayyyy too much has been made out of one offhand comment made out of frustration. The guy's career speaks for itself.
I didn't need the offhand comment to tell me he doesn't hustle. I've watched him 20+ times a year since he came to the league. He is obviously a great player. I just hate it when guys don't bust it out of the box. Only need to do it 2-4 times a game.
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I have a very hard time buying the notion that a four-time all-star, two time Gold Glove winner, who's missed 11 games in the past four years and compiled a 33+ WAR by his 26th birthday is some sort of malcontent who doesn't care or put out effort between the lines.
Baseball is hard. Being great at multiple aspects of the game is really hard. Players don't get as good as Machado without trying hard.
Waaayyyy too much has been made out of one offhand comment made out of frustration. The guy's career speaks for itself.
Sorry, but Machado doesn't hustle. He's far from the only one, but when one doesn't do it in the postseason it stands out.
I'd still take him on my team, but I'd go in with eyes wide open.
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Sorry, but Machado doesn't hustle. He's far from the only one, but when one doesn't do it in the postseason it stands out.
I'd still take him on my team, but I'd go in with eyes wide open.
Sorry, but I don't believe anyone becomes an elite professional baseball player both at the plate and in the field without hustle.
But my definition of hustle isn't just running hard on routine groundball outs.
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I am a Red Sox fan. Not sure what you mean by couldn't be bothered playing defense. He was terrible at it, but I never got the impression he wasn't trying while he was out there. I don't remember him not hustling all that much, either. Ortiz was one who didn't hustle all the time (and I didn't like it), mostly at the end with his bad feet. And he hustled always in the postseason.
I think that is a bit of revisionist history, but even if it isn't, it doesn't matter. The point is, if Macahdo can help get the Sox better, and to a WS, it doesn't matter how much he hustles or how much I like him. He has the talent to do things few others can on the field and I'll take it.
You take great players with their warts, whether it is lazy and dirty like Machado can be, or bad (at defense) and on roids like Manny, their talent supercedes their problems. And in Ramirez's case, the results outweigh the considerable warts.
The biggest problem I had with Macahdo in the playoffs wasn't his not running out a grounder ( the double he admired into a single was bad though) it was the stupid plays that cost his team that would irritate me to no end.
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I think that is a bit of revisionist history, but even if it isn't, it doesn't matter. The point is, if Macahdo can help get the Sox better, and to a WS, it doesn't matter how much he hustles or how much I like him. He has the talent to do things few others can on the field and I'll take it.
You take great players with their warts, whether it is lazy and dirty like Machado can be, or bad and on roids like Manny, their talent supercedes their problems.
I get it and don't disagree with you. If he's your SS or 3B, you're gonna win more with him than with most other guys.
Just saying I find guys who don't go full out frustrating to watch. I think of those Yankees team from the late 90's that I hated that won every year. If you bobbled a ground ball those jerks would beat it out. If you threw to the wrong base they would advance and make you pay. If you didn't make a smooth turn on the DP they'd beat the throw to first and prolong the inning. If the ball got away from the catcher a little bit they'd have their secondary lead and be ready to take the next base. If you dropped an infield popup with two outs they scored from first. Machado doesn't do any of that stuff, and when your best player doesn't do it, it rubs off on the other guys.
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Machado very good player, bad example setter at times. I appreciate my stars busting ass all the time. Mike Trout, best player in baseball and busts it every damn time. It pays off with infield singles, infielders panicking and committing an error, etc. It was how I was raised, in the Pete Rose era.....bust it out every time. No doubt MM makes any team likely better as he is a pure upgrade, but there is baggage there that some other super stats managed not to bring with them, including the basics of how to properly play the game.
Feel free to attack on the grounds I am stuck in another era. I proudly wear the label.
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Bye Addison Russell, scumbag.
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Bye Addison Russell, scumbag.
The Cubs are taking the tough road and keeping him around to ensure he gets the help he really needs.
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The Cubs are taking the tough road and keeping him around to ensure he gets the help he really needs.
I believe that direction will change, I hope at least.
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Just going to leave this here and go so I don't get in a six page battle with wadesworld.
https://www.docdroid.net/b4Kkd6i/melisa-reidy-is-speaking-out-its-time-for-everyone-to-listen-kw.pdf
Addy has to be gone.
If he takes the stage at the Cubs Convention next month, the crowd response is going to be ugly.
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I believe that direction will change, I hope at least.
Serious question ... why?
They were willing to keep him as an allegedly abusive spouse, but finding out he's been an absentee dad - hardly unique among professional athletes - is too much for the organization?
Seems like an odd choice for the character flaw the Cubs choose to put their foot down over.
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Serious question ... why?
They were willing to keep him as an allegedly abusive spouse, but finding out he's been an absentee dad - hardly unique among professional athletes - is too much for the organization?
Seems like an odd choice for the character flaw the Cubs choose to put their foot down over.
I wouldn't have tendered him to begin with. Now the girlfriend is coming out with additional details, I think? I don't know if this was told to the MLB originally or not. I would think the MLB would have been a bit more severe given the details that she is providing now.
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I wouldn't have tendered him to begin with. Now the girlfriend is coming out with additional details, I think? I don't know if this was told to the MLB originally or not. I would think the MLB would have been a bit more severe given the details that she is providing now.
From what I read, the girlfriend basically is complaining he's a sh*tty father who wants to pay as little child support as he can get away with legally.
While that, if true, makes him a bad guy, it hardly seems a suspend-able offense or one that would get a guy cut. He's not in rare company when it comes to be a professional athlete who's a less-than-doting father.
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From what I read, the girlfriend basically is complaining he's a sh*tty father who wants to pay as little child support as he can get away with legally.
While that, if true, makes him a bad guy, it hardly seems a suspend-able offense or one that would get a guy cut. He's not in rare company when it comes to be a professional athlete who's a less-than-doting father.
Check out TT34's link.
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Check out TT34's link.
Oh, OK. That's his wife. When you said girlfriend, I thought you meant the baby mama written about on Deadspin today.
That said, I'm not convinced anything there is new to the Cubs or MLB. She spoke with MLB investigators in September. If there's something in that link that she didn't share with MLB, that's on her, not the league or the Cubs.
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Machado very good player, bad example setter at times. I appreciate my stars busting ass all the time. Mike Trout, best player in baseball and busts it every damn time. It pays off with infield singles, infielders panicking and committing an error, etc. It was how I was raised, in the Pete Rose era.....bust it out every time. No doubt MM makes any team likely better as he is a pure upgrade, but there is baggage there that some other super stats managed not to bring with them, including the basics of how to properly play the game.
Feel free to attack on the grounds I am stuck in another era. I proudly wear the label.
It has nothing to do with era. I think most people would prefer that players bust their asses each and every play. I know I certainly would. I would also prefer my team have a guy that doesn't kill himself on a routine groundout and is an 80 grade talent, that a guy that busts his butt and is a 50 grade player.
Yolmer Sanchez busts his butt all the time. Good player, seems super likable, best game winning celebrations around. But you replace him with Manny in a heartbeat and you don't think about it. Yolmer is better served as a utility guy, and Manny as a middle of the order bat that plays elite defense at 3B.
I have no doubt Mike Trout would love to have Manny on his team.
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Machado very good player, bad example setter at times. I appreciate my stars busting ass all the time. Mike Trout, best player in baseball and busts it every damn time. It pays off with infield singles, infielders panicking and committing an error, etc. It was how I was raised, in the Pete Rose era.....bust it out every time. No doubt MM makes any team likely better as he is a pure upgrade, but there is baggage there that some other super stats managed not to bring with them, including the basics of how to properly play the game.
Feel free to attack on the grounds I am stuck in another era. I proudly wear the label.
The Pete Rose era, when players did tons of coke (not to mention greenies) and started using steroids.
But Manny Machado sets a bad example.
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I think Machado and Harper don't sign with someone until the first week of January. Both their agents notoriously don't like each other, and each is waiting for the other to sign first, so the other guy can then get a bigger deal.
I think teams won't mind waiting through the holidays for either guy, but I think some posturing starts that week of January 7th. This market isn't as slow as it was last year, guys are getting signed and deals are getting made. At some point though, suitors are going to really pursue other guys/deals if the price isn't coming down (if the price is coming down, totally different scenario). Deals for either guy certainly can come sooner, but I think it won't be until that week that we see one of these guys sign.
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Oh, OK. That's his wife. When you said girlfriend, I thought you meant the baby mama written about on Deadspin today.
That said, I'm not convinced anything there is new to the Cubs or MLB. She spoke with MLB investigators in September. If there's something in that link that she didn't share with MLB, that's on her, not the league or the Cubs.
I think its a pattern of behavior. He's an absolute liability beyond being just a crapty person. Purely from a baseball standpoint, he's not shown an ability to separate his personal and professional to an extent it doesn't hurt him on the field. Now getting another woman pregnant in the midst of all the activity with his wife? There is just very little to feel good about if you're the Cubs in my opinion. Its sickening.
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It really shouldn't surprise anyone that an organization owned by terrible people condones or is implicit in the behavior of over terrible people.
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It really shouldn't surprise anyone that an organization owned by terrible people condones or is implicit in the behavior of over terrible people.
:)
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Just going to leave this here and go so I don't get in a six page battle with wadesworld.
https://www.docdroid.net/b4Kkd6i/melisa-reidy-is-speaking-out-its-time-for-everyone-to-listen-kw.pdf
Addy has to be gone.
If he takes the stage at the Cubs Convention next month, the crowd response is going to be ugly.
Honestly didn't read the link. Don't really need to read 12 pages on Addison Russell. It was pretty obvious the guy was a POS already. Not sure what there is to argue about. Are you saying I'd argue that fans at the Cubs Convention (assuming that's some sort of fan day where Cubs players interact with the fans, sing autographs, etc.?) would warmly welcome Addison Russell with open arms just like Brewers fans cheered Josh Hader when he pitched for the Brewers? If so, that's beyond laughable. Talk about an apples to hippopotamus comparison. Unacceptable racist, sexist Tweets surfaced 7 years after Hader was a stupid teenager while pitching on a baseball field. Compare that to a wife beating cheater smiling for pictures with fans. Good comp.
We don't need to wait around to see Cubs fans reactions to a wife beater on the team. Aroldis Chapman answered that question for us. When the Cubs tendered a contract to Addison some Cubs fans wanted to spread the narrative that this was a really classy thing for the Cubs to do. They weren't doing it because Addison could help them on a baseball field, they wouldn't even have him playing, they just wanted to see their own get the help he needed.
The reality is the ONLY reason they tendered a contract to Russell was in hopes that the worst was already out there, they could hide him away from the public eye until this died down, and then he could come back and be the All Star they thought he could be for the Chicago Cubs. They'd keep the narrative out there that he wouldn't play, they'd send him to anger management, and as long as nothing else was going to come out he'd be back on the field, and they could even claim there were some serious holes in the accusers story, she had failed to comply with authorities in the past when given an opportunity to do so, etc. Now we're (to nobody's surprise, or at least it shouldn't be) finding out the guy really is as bad of a person as the accuser claims he is and the Cubs are stuck.
And guess what? A LARGE MAJORITY OF PROFESSIONAL SPORTS TEAMS WOULD HANDLE THE SAME SITUATION THE SAME WAY! It's sad and gross, but that's how it goes. It's also absurd to claim that the Cubs were taking the "tough route" by tendering him a contract or pretending they did it because they wanted to see the guy rise above his challenges. They did it for one reason and one reason only, they still hoped he could produce on a baseball field, regardless of how terrible of a person they knew he was.
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Honestly didn't read the link. Don't really need to read 12 pages on Addison Russell. It was pretty obvious the guy was a POS already. Not sure what there is to argue about. Are you saying I'd argue that fans at the Cubs Convention (assuming that's some sort of fan day where Cubs players interact with the fans, sing autographs, etc.?) would warmly welcome Addison Russell with open arms just like Brewers fans cheered Josh Hader when he pitched for the Brewers? If so, that's beyond laughable. Talk about an apples to hippopotamus comparison. Unacceptable racist, sexist Tweets surfaced 7 years after Hader was a stupid teenager while pitching on a baseball field. Compare that to a wife beating cheater smiling for pictures with fans. Good comp.
We don't need to wait around to see Cubs fans reactions to a wife beater on the team. Aroldis Chapman answered that question for us. When the Cubs tendered a contract to Addison some Cubs fans wanted to spread the narrative that this was a really classy thing for the Cubs to do. They weren't doing it because Addison could help them on a baseball field, they wouldn't even have him playing, they just wanted to see their own get the help he needed.
The reality is the ONLY reason they tendered a contract to Russell was in hopes that the worst was already out there, they could hide him away from the public eye until this died down, and then he could come back and be the All Star they thought he could be for the Chicago Cubs. They'd keep the narrative out there that he wouldn't play, they'd send him to anger management, and as long as nothing else was going to come out he'd be back on the field, and they could even claim there were some serious holes in the accusers story, she had failed to comply with authorities in the past when given an opportunity to do so, etc. Now we're (to nobody's surprise, or at least it shouldn't be) finding out the guy really is as bad of a person as the accuser claims he is and the Cubs are stuck.
And guess what? A LARGE MAJORITY OF PROFESSIONAL SPORTS TEAMS WOULD HANDLE THE SAME SITUATION THE SAME WAY! It's sad and gross, but that's how it goes. It's also absurd to claim that the Cubs were taking the "tough route" by tendering him a contract or pretending they did it because they wanted to see the guy rise above his challenges. They did it for one reason and one reason only, they still hoped he could produce on a baseball field, regardless of how terrible of a person they knew he was.
Pretty much.
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Machado very good player, bad example setter at times. I appreciate my stars busting ass all the time. Mike Trout, best player in baseball and busts it every damn time. It pays off with infield singles, infielders panicking and committing an error, etc. It was how I was raised, in the Pete Rose era.....bust it out every time. No doubt MM makes any team likely better as he is a pure upgrade, but there is baggage there that some other super stats managed not to bring with them, including the basics of how to properly play the game.
Feel free to attack on the grounds I am stuck in another era. I proudly wear the label.
There are plenty of people now who go all out. There were plenty of people then who dogged it.
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And guess what? A LARGE MAJORITY OF PROFESSIONAL SPORTS TEAMS WOULD HANDLE THE SAME SITUATION THE SAME WAY! It's sad and gross, but that's how it goes. It's also absurd to claim that the Cubs were taking the "tough route" by tendering him a contract or pretending they did it because they wanted to see the guy rise above his challenges. They did it for one reason and one reason only, they still hoped he could produce on a baseball field, regardless of how terrible of a person they knew he was.
And that's why their original press release was just a load of B.S.
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It really shouldn't surprise anyone that an organization owned by terrible people condones or is implicit in the behavior of over terrible people.
::)
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And that's why their original press release was just a load of B.S.
Agreed. They said what they had to say but for someone to believe what they were trying to sell was naïve at best. I'd imagine that even the people writing the press release knew that only people within Chicago would buy a word of what they were saying.
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::)
But hey, if the Chicago Cubs won't support him, maybe he can get a fresh start with the Schaumburg Cubs
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Agreed. They said what they had to say but for someone to believe what they were trying to sell was naïve at best. I'd imagine that even the people writing the press release knew that only people within Chicago Cub fans would buy a word of what they were saying.
FIFY.
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Well, Harper to the Dodgers is gonna happen pretty soon I'd guess.
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The Pete Rose era, when players did tons of coke (not to mention greenies) and started using steroids.
But Manny Machado sets a bad example.
We can play this game all day I suppose, but not worth it.
I was talking about hustling in games, running out hits, hell even running at times when walked.....not what they were doing off the field.
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Well, Harper to the Dodgers is gonna happen pretty soon I'd guess.
I read it the other way, this is them signaling they’re out on Harper and giving them flexibility moving forward for another trade or signing someone like Pollock. Harper would still punish them well into the tax, a short term Pollock deal or trading for Kluber wouldn’t.
Machado also told all 3 teams today he won’t sign until after the new year. My Sox guy had heard that earlier this week, I had mentioned on here the week of Jan 7th would be likely, and appears to be the case.
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I read it the other way, this is them signaling they’re out on Harper and giving them flexibility moving forward for another trade or signing someone like Pollock. Harper would still punish them well into the tax, a short term Pollock deal or trading for Kluber wouldn’t.
Machado also told all 3 teams today he won’t sign until after the new year. My Sox guy had heard that earlier this week, I had mentioned on here the week of Jan 7th would be likely, and appears to be the case.
I guess that could certainly be the case. It just seems like everything is working out to get Bryce to the Dodgers, which seems to be what he wants, based on reports, but who knows what of that is true.
Also, I bet if Matt Kemp were advising any guys in free agency, all he would say is "no trade clause"
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Also, I bet if Matt Kemp were advising any guys in free agency, all he would say is "no trade clause"
Word. He’s gonna weigh 350 lbs by the start of the season.
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Word. He’s gonna weigh 350 lbs by the start of the season.
That's a lot of Skyline Chili
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That's a lot of Skyline Chili
Skyline Chili more likely would lead to weight loss.
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Skyline Chili more likely would lead to weight loss.
Hahahah!
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::)
Nuking the archives of two local news sites so their writers can’t recover their clippings to use to find new work isn’t political.
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Look Cub fans. You too Brewer fans. St. Louis is FOR REAL.
The signing of Goldschmidt is a turning point in St. Louis. If Ozuma is healthy and Carpenter continues on his MVP path, this team could pass the Cubs and the Brewers. They have more pitching depth. Their hitting will be on par with either team. Their only weakness will be their defense. If that improves, they're a 95-102 win team next year.
I think Dexter Fowler is washed up (thanks a heap Chicago Cubs) but if he somehow hits .260 or better next year, God help the rest of the division.
That red bird closing fast in the Cubbie bear's rear window is a real threat. And he's pretty angry about the past three years.
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But hey, if the Chicago Cubs won't support him, maybe he can get a fresh start with the Schaumburg Cubs
I've said I want him gone, but your other statement about terrible people was over the top and unwarranted.
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I've said I want him gone, but your other statement about terrible people was over the top and unwarranted.
You're right and I'm sorry. A completely unfair generalization.
Laura Ricketts deserves better.
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Look Cub fans. You too Brewer fans. St. Louis is FOR REAL.
The signing of Goldschmidt is a turning point in St. Louis. If Ozuma is healthy and Carpenter continues on his MVP path, this team could pass the Cubs and the Brewers. They have more pitching depth. Their hitting will be on par with either team. Their only weakness will be their defense. If that improves, they're a 95-102 win team next year.
I think Dexter Fowler is washed up (thanks a heap Chicago Cubs) but if he somehow hits .260 or better next year, God help the rest of the division.
That red bird closing fast in the Cubbie bear's rear window is a real threat. And he's pretty angry about the past three years.
That stuff doesn't even need to happen. The addition of Goldschmidt on its own is huge and instantly made the Central 3 team race, the addition of Miller, may make the Cards the favorite. If Carpenter, Ozuna and Goldschmidt all put up average seasons for themselves, that is a dangerous team. The question is where does Carpenter play? 3B? Do they run Jose Martinez out in RF? That would be an ugly defensive alignment.
The NL will be really tough. It looks like the East will have 4 pretty good teams, Mets, Nats, Phil and Braves should all be good. The Central is better with the Cards making some strides, Brewers and Cubs, and the Reds should at least be better. The west looks like Dodgers and Rockies. I would think the west would have the inside track to one of the wild cards with the division, but who knows.
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My son and I were talking about baseball this morning and Joe Mauer's name came up. I was laughing about all the "what a great player" pub he was getting now that he is retiring. I said he had a strong start to his career but after his MVP year of '09 got him the mega-contract, he became "little more than Mark Grace."
Then I looked up Mauer's stats ... and I owe Grace a huge apology.
Over his last 9 seasons -- and he had a 15-year career, so that's 60% of it -- Mauer averaged 8 HR and 58 RBI, and he had a .788 OPS. It was much worse than I had thought.
Not that it's his fault -- or even the Twins' fault, because they had little choice to pay him -- but one could make a pretty good argument that he was the most overpaid player in all of baseball during that stretch. Paid a run-producer's salary, but incapable of driving in runs for a team that sucked (in part because they paid so much to a mediocre ballplayer). He even stopped playing catcher, and his production was especially pathetic for a first baseman.
And yet this guy will get HoF votes. Probably won't get in ... until the old-timers committee says 20 years from now, "Well, Harold Baines is in, so we might as well put Mauer in, too."
Funny.
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My son and I were talking about baseball this morning and Joe Mauer's name came up. I was laughing about all the "what a great player" pub he was getting now that he is retiring. I said he had a strong start to his career but after his MVP year of '09 got him the mega-contract, he became "little more than Mark Grace."
Then I looked up Mauer's stats ... and I owe Grace a huge apology.
Over his last 9 seasons -- and he had a 15-year career, so that's 60% of it -- Mauer averaged 8 HR and 58 RBI, and he had a .788 OPS. It was much worse than I had thought.
Not that it's his fault -- or even the Twins' fault, because they had little choice to pay him -- but one could make a pretty good argument that he was the most overpaid player in all of baseball during that stretch. Paid a run-producer's salary, but incapable of driving in runs for a team that sucked (in part because they paid so much to a mediocre ballplayer). He even stopped playing catcher, and his production was especially pathetic for a first baseman.
And yet this guy will get HoF votes. Probably won't get in ... until the old-timers committee says 20 years from now, "Well, Harold Baines is in, so we might as well put Mauer in, too."
Funny.
On the other hand, his 55.1 career WAR is better than the average career WAR of HOF catchers (53.5) and his 7-year peak WAR of 39.0 is better than that of HOF catchers' average (34.5).
Based on his position, he should be in the Hall of Fame.
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On the other hand, his 55.1 career WAR is better than the average career WAR of HOF catchers (53.5) and his 7-year peak WAR of 39.0 is better than that of HOF catchers' average (34.5).
Based on his position, he should be in the Hall of Fame.
Do you count him just as a C though? He started 885 games as a C and 888 as a 1B or DH.
His first 9 years were entirely elite. Especially at C. That position just wears guys down. When a guy that is a great hitting C gets moved to 1B, it is a different story as what passes at good offensive player. I think the same thing is happening to Posey right now.
I think he is an interesting case, he was the best C in the AL for a decade. Guys like Molina that can catch everyday into their mid 30s are rare indeed. At least in today's game.
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On the other hand, his 55.1 career WAR is better than the average career WAR of HOF catchers (53.5) and his 7-year peak WAR of 39.0 is better than that of HOF catchers' average (34.5).
Based on his position, he should be in the Hall of Fame.
Less than half of his career was as a catcher. The entire second half of his career, he was a barely mediocre ballplayer.
I have nothing against Mauer personally. Seems like a nice gentleman. Just became almost a non-entity of a ballplayer starting in Year 7 of his 15-year career.
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Harper to the Cubs? One MLB exec is saying that is how he would bet on it at the moment.
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Harper to the Cubs? One MLB exec is saying that is how he would bet on it at the moment.
Which one?
How will he fit financially?
Are the Cubs moving Heyward? How? To whom? Are they selling off other players to move Heyward? In that case does it make the Cubs better?
Seems like people thing Boras would give them a sweetheart deal, but is their relationship good after the service time game with Bryant? Didn't Bryant reject a contract extension without thinking about it? Maybe that makes spending on Harper more likely, maybe it makes it more difficult.
I don't doubt that Harper would like to play on the north side, but the Cubs seem to have more hurdles than most to clear to make room for him. Unless all their budget constraints are being mis-reported. Which could be.
But there is this from MLBTR as well
"As per Roster Resource, the Cubs are currently on the hook for a payroll in excess of $220MM next season, which comes with a projected luxury tax price tag of just under $234.5MM (reminder: the luxury tax payroll carries some different calculations than solely the dollar figures on the MLB payroll). This puts them in position to exceed the $206MM Competitive Balance Tax threshold, and thus pay a tax penalty of 20% of every dollar on the overage. This is the “first-timer” rate for any team that exceeds the threshold but stayed under the line in the previous season. If the Cubs’ tax bill were to exceed the $246MM mark next season, they’d face a larger financial penalty as well as a ten-spot drop in the draft order for their highest selection in the 2019 amateur draft."
It could happen, but Heyward would seem to be a huge stumbling block. If he somehow gets moved, then it is a completely different story. But what if they needed to move Schwarber and Happ to move him? Happ and Contreras? It isn't like they have huge prospects to sweeten the deal. Cano and his terrible contract got moved, but he has been a more productive hitter, and it took the best closer in baseball last year to get the deal done.
Whether the Cubs are in on Harper or not, it is certainly in Boras and Harper's best interest that other teams think they are in on him.
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My son and I were talking about baseball this morning and Joe Mauer's name came up. I was laughing about all the "what a great player" pub he was getting now that he is retiring. I said he had a strong start to his career but after his MVP year of '09 got him the mega-contract, he became "little more than Mark Grace."
Then I looked up Mauer's stats ... and I owe Grace a huge apology.
Over his last 9 seasons -- and he had a 15-year career, so that's 60% of it -- Mauer averaged 8 HR and 58 RBI, and he had a .788 OPS. It was much worse than I had thought.
Why do you think we Cardinal fans don't cry every morning about Albert Pujols' signing with California?
To his credit, he took the money offered him. California proved there was an idiot born every minute.
To our credit, our team took the money and did something else with it -- something that proved better and brought more championships.
The sad thing was that Pujols, had he stayed, would have been the next Stan Musial. In LA, he's a nobody!
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To our credit, our team took the money and did something else with it -- something that proved better and brought more championships.
The Cardinals won championships since Pujols left?
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Why do you think we Cardinal fans don't cry every morning about Albert Pujols' signing with California?
To his credit, he took the money offered him. California proved there was an idiot born every minute.
To our credit, our team took the money and did something else with it -- something that proved better and brought more championships.
The sad thing was that Pujols, had he stayed, would have been the next Stan Musial. In LA, he's a nobody!
As an Angels fan I can assure you we overpaid, but we went for broke early on. We did finish with the best record in baseball four years ago with him and Trout, but that was the year the Royals caught fire and tore through everyone in the AL.
I’m not aware of you winning any championships since he left, however.
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Why do you think we Cardinal fans don't cry every morning about Albert Pujols' signing with California?
To his credit, he took the money offered him. California proved there was an idiot born every minute.
To our credit, our team took the money and did something else with it -- something that proved better and brought more championships.
The sad thing was that Pujols, had he stayed, would have been the next Stan Musial. In LA, he's a nobody!
California? Is it the 80s?
Pujols has been far from the Angels only problem. Their main problem has been pitching. And while the money allocated to Pujols does hinder them in adding to the rotation, a never ending string of injuries to Garret Richards and Heaney has played a big role. As has decisions to pay CJ Wilson TOR money, and Jered Weaver falling off the face of the Earth. Additionally, in my opinion one of the biggest misses for the Angels was the complete disaster of a contract for Josh Hamilton. I think that hamstrung them much more than the Pujols deal. It also seems like that deal has made Moreno a little gun shy.
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I’m not aware of you winning any championships since he left, however.
My gosh, I am beginning to think like a Cub fan! I'm giving credit for divisional titles! :-[
C'mon Angels fans -- you badly overpaid for a superstar whose best days were behind him.
$240 million? I realize Mr. Moreno has money to burn but that was ridiculous even by standards of the idle rich.
The money the DeWitt family did not spend on Pujols probably was part of the pool that was used to acquire and hopefully sign to a long-term contract Paul Goldschmidt. The Cardinals have been slimming down compensation wise since Pujols left, sort of, and the fans have become a bit restless. With Goldschmidt, we'll be well-prepared to bring home that championship I fretted about earlier.
I'll agree that the Cardinals really didn't replace Pujols until they signed Goldschmidt.
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My gosh, I am beginningThe money the DeWitt family did not spend on Pujols probably was part of the pool that was used to acquire and hopefully sign to a long-term contract Paul Goldschmidt.
I'm not saying it's the same situation, but Pujols did have a productive year at age 32 when he arrived in Anaheim before some injuries and a drop in production. Goldschmidt is 31, so a year younger than Pujols was when he made his move. Unless he's on the Barry Bonds workout regimen, the odds are his production will start to tail off in the next couple years. He's a great player who likely brings a big bat for a bit, but a long-term extension could put the Cards in a very similar situation to the one the Angels were in with Pujols.
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California? Is it the 80s?
Pujols has been far from the Angels only problem. Their main problem has been pitching. And while the money allocated to Pujols does hinder them in adding to the rotation, a never ending string of injuries to Garret Richards and Heaney has played a big role. As has decisions to pay CJ Wilson TOR money, and Jered Weaver falling off the face of the Earth. Additionally, in my opinion one of the biggest misses for the Angels was the complete disaster of a contract for Josh Hamilton. I think that hamstrung them much more than the Pujols deal. It also seems like that deal has made Moreno a little gun shy.
We have had more Tommy John surgeries I believe than any other team the last four years. It has been ridiculous. 7 pitchers since 2014, most of them starting rotation.
Ohtani (#2 starter)
Richards (#1 starter)
Skaggs (starter)
Heaney (starter)
Tropeano (starter / reliever)
Middleton (reliever)
Ramirez (reliever)
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My gosh, I am beginning to think like a Cub fan! I'm giving credit for divisional titles! :-[
C'mon Angels fans -- you badly overpaid for a superstar whose best days were behind him.
$240 million? I realize Mr. Moreno has money to burn but that was ridiculous even by standards of the idle rich.
The money the DeWitt family did not spend on Pujols probably was part of the pool that was used to acquire and hopefully sign to a long-term contract Paul Goldschmidt. The Cardinals have been slimming down compensation wise since Pujols left, sort of, and the fans have become a bit restless. With Goldschmidt, we'll be well-prepared to bring home that championship I fretted about earlier.
I'll agree that the Cardinals really didn't replace Pujols until they signed Goldschmidt.
His first few years were decent, and they were going all out to win it. Had the best record in baseball, ran into a hot Royals team in the playoffs. It happens, especially in baseball. The issue was the length of the deal, and that was the risk they wanted to take.
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I'm not saying it's the same situation, but Pujols did have a productive year at age 32 when he arrived in Anaheim before some injuries and a drop in production. Goldschmidt is 31, so a year younger than Pujols was when he made his move. Unless he's on the Barry Bonds workout regimen, the odds are his production will start to tail off in the next couple years. He's a great player who likely brings a big bat for a bit, but a long-term extension could put the Cards in a very similar situation to the one the Angels were in with Pujols.
Keep in mind that the Cardinals offered Mr. Pujols $200.0 million in a contract that would have made him a Cardinal and a legend for life. That's not chump change, even by current standards.
Ole Artie came around and offered $40 million more with a backloaded contract. Pujols' wife thought the Cardinals were ungrateful for not matching the salary and said so publicly. That led to a "good riddence" divorce between Ms. Pujols and Cardinal Nation.
You are right about the risk with Goldschmidt. The Barry Bonds needle regimine probably won't help much given advancement in detection techniques. But the Cardinals had to do something dramatic. They had a good team coming into 2019 but a team that without a big move was not going to catch the Cubs and perhaps not the Brewers. With this move, they are, as I earlier suggested, in a position to be the favorites in the NL Central and a contender for the National League Championship (especially given that the Dodgers just unloaded a core part of their team).
Cardinal Nation was demanding something be done. Three years out of the playoffs might be OK if you're a Cub fan. In Cardinal Nation, they're threatening to torch Busch III they're so angry.
The Bryce Harper sweepstakes may modify the division and the league, depending on where Mr. Harper and his agent choose to sign. If Mr. Harper becomes a Cub -- God forbid -- the Divisional arms race was just escalated. If he becomes a Dodger, he'll just become part of the annual el foldo the Dodgers are known for.
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Cardinal Nation was demanding something be done. Three years out of the playoffs might be OK if you're a Cub fan. In Cardinal Nation, they're threatening to torch Busch III they're so angry.
There’s the hallmark smug attitude of the “Best Fans in Baseball”, in addition to dog whistling commentary aimed at players who don’t dare sign in STL (that part not aimed at dgies)
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We have had more Tommy John surgeries I believe than any other team the last four years. It has been ridiculous. 7 pitchers since 2014, most of them starting rotation.
Ohtani (#2 starter)
Richards (#1 starter)
Skaggs (starter)
Heaney (starter)
Tropeano (starter / reliever)
Middleton (reliever)
Ramirez (reliever)
Maybe y'all should just sign the original!
I hear Tommy would like to make a comeback, and he still could probably get some of these guys who swing from their heels on every pitch to whiff.
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There’s the hallmark smug attitude of the “Best Fans in Baseball”, in addition to dog whistling commentary aimed at players who don’t dare sign in STL (that part not aimed at dgies)
Brother JWags, I appreciate your exclusion on the dog whistling. I respect that players have a right to do what they want. Curt Flood risked it all for the right to control his destiny and the efforts he made, along with Marvin Miller, Dave McNally, Andy Messersmith and even Ted Simmons, work both ways.
As to the "hallmark smug attitude of the best fans in baseball," we're not Cub fans, I'll admit. In Chicago, you could put the Carol Stream Little League in Wrigley Field and draw 32,000 people. Those fans will slurp brie, drink white wine and spend six innings of the game on their cell phone (or other distraction) anyway. Their owners took advantage of that reality for decades and conditioned the Cub fan to expect bad baseball.
That's why 5 million people showed up for a parade when the Cubs won the World Series. It was the shock of something they never expected to see in their lifetime and probably never will see again!
We Cardinal fans expect to win. Probably like Yankee fans, we have little tolerance for bad baseball. Management knows that. Our former home stadium was one of the seven great pre-cast concrete wonders of the world. If the winds were out of the Northeast, we had the wonderful smell of a now gone Metro East stockyard filling the stadium. We went to see players like Bob Gibson, Ozzie Smith, Lou Brock and more recently, Matt Carpenter, Adam Wainwright, Albert Pujols and Yadier Molina. We filled the place. Cardinal Management knew that if they ever did a planned dump, like the Cubs and Astros did, there would barely be 1.0 million people at Busch III. We're not fair weather fans, we have expectations!
Think of it this way. Metro St. Louis is modestly larger than Orlando, Pittsburgh and Kansas City. It is modestly smaller than Baltimore, Minneapolis-St. Paul, Denver and Tampa. Yet the Cardinals consistently are among the top three or four teams in terms of home attendance in all baseball. They are arguably the most successful small market team in baseball for a reason.
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I mean, are you *trying* to live up to the insufferable a$$hole-ness stereotype of Cardinal fans? You couldn't put on a better act if you tried.
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Maybe y'all should just sign the original!
I hear Tommy would like to make a comeback, and he still could probably get some of these guys who swing from their heels on every pitch to whiff.
We had TJ on the roster for three years at one point. Being a lefty, he probably could get a few free swingers to chase today.
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Brother JWags, I appreciate your exclusion on the dog whistling. I respect that players have a right to do what they want. Curt Flood risked it all for the right to control his destiny and the efforts he made, along with Marvin Miller, Dave McNally, Andy Messersmith and even Ted Simmons, work both ways.
As to the "hallmark smug attitude of the best fans in baseball," we're not Cub fans, I'll admit. In Chicago, you could put the Carol Stream Little League in Wrigley Field and draw 32,000 people. Those fans will slurp brie, drink white wine and spend six innings of the game on their cell phone (or other distraction) anyway. Their owners took advantage of that reality for decades and conditioned the Cub fan to expect bad baseball.
That's why 5 million people showed up for a parade when the Cubs won the World Series. It was the shock of something they never expected to see in their lifetime and probably never will see again!
We Cardinal fans expect to win. Probably like Yankee fans, we have little tolerance for bad baseball. Management knows that. Our former home stadium was one of the seven great pre-cast concrete wonders of the world. If the winds were out of the Northeast, we had the wonderful smell of a now gone Metro East stockyard filling the stadium. We went to see players like Bob Gibson, Ozzie Smith, Lou Brock and more recently, Matt Carpenter, Adam Wainwright, Albert Pujols and Yadier Molina. We filled the place. Cardinal Management knew that if they ever did a planned dump, like the Cubs and Astros did, there would barely be 1.0 million people at Busch III. We're not fair weather fans, we have expectations!
Think of it this way. Metro St. Louis is modestly larger than Orlando, Pittsburgh and Kansas City. It is modestly smaller than Baltimore, Minneapolis-St. Paul, Denver and Tampa. Yet the Cardinals consistently are among the top three or four teams in terms of home attendance in all baseball. They are arguably the most successful small market team in baseball for a reason.
Oh my God.
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We're not fair weather fans, we have expectations!
(https://media.tenor.com/images/3bbd686c1660aead2e08b977726f22d9/tenor.gif)
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Which one?
Whether the Cubs are in on Harper or not, it is certainly in Boras and Harper's best interest that other teams think they are in on him.
Our family has been on vacation and returned home last night. Appears he may return to the Nationals now? They offered $300M, maybe no one else is willing to go that high.
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Brother JWags, I appreciate your exclusion on the dog whistling. I respect that players have a right to do what they want. Curt Flood risked it all for the right to control his destiny and the efforts he made, along with Marvin Miller, Dave McNally, Andy Messersmith and even Ted Simmons, work both ways.
As to the "hallmark smug attitude of the best fans in baseball," we're not Cub fans, I'll admit. In Chicago, you could put the Carol Stream Little League in Wrigley Field and draw 32,000 people. Those fans will slurp brie, drink white wine and spend six innings of the game on their cell phone (or other distraction) anyway. Their owners took advantage of that reality for decades and conditioned the Cub fan to expect bad baseball.
That's why 5 million people showed up for a parade when the Cubs won the World Series. It was the shock of something they never expected to see in their lifetime and probably never will see again!
We Cardinal fans expect to win. Probably like Yankee fans, we have little tolerance for bad baseball. Management knows that. Our former home stadium was one of the seven great pre-cast concrete wonders of the world. If the winds were out of the Northeast, we had the wonderful smell of a now gone Metro East stockyard filling the stadium. We went to see players like Bob Gibson, Ozzie Smith, Lou Brock and more recently, Matt Carpenter, Adam Wainwright, Albert Pujols and Yadier Molina. We filled the place. Cardinal Management knew that if they ever did a planned dump, like the Cubs and Astros did, there would barely be 1.0 million people at Busch III. We're not fair weather fans, we have expectations!
Think of it this way. Metro St. Louis is modestly larger than Orlando, Pittsburgh and Kansas City. It is modestly smaller than Baltimore, Minneapolis-St. Paul, Denver and Tampa. Yet the Cardinals consistently are among the top three or four teams in terms of home attendance in all baseball. They are arguably the most successful small market team in baseball for a reason.
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-15-2015/_5S3eP.gif)
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Brewers are said to be the front runner for Baumgarner and the possible centerpiece would be Corey Ray. If that’s the best prospect the Brewers would have to give up, I’d go for it.
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White Sox add another arm to the bullpen:
Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal
Source confirms: #WhiteSox in agreement with free-agent RHP Kelvin Herrera on two-year, $18M contract. Vesting or club option for third year could bring total value to $27M. Pending completion of physical. First reported: @JeffPassan.
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In 2019 does the term small market even exist? Especially for a place like st Louis.
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Hmm...
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Hmm...
Things are getting weird!!!!!
Independent of other attributes, Jay is a decent fit.
Love the Herrera move as well. Can never have enough good relievers. And while 9 per seasons seems a bit expensive at first look, it does seem that is the market rate.
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Brewers are said to be the front runner for Baumgarner and the possible centerpiece would be Corey Ray. If that’s the best prospect the Brewers would have to give up, I’d go for it.
Morosi followed up today that SF would need one of Burnes, Woodruff or Peralta to be included. I'd say no deal. I give it 50/50 odds that two of those three outperform MadBum in 2019 alone.
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This June, Machado, Yonder Alonso, Jon Jay and all their families will go out to a Father's Day brunch on a beautiful Sunday morning in Chicago. Later on that night Machado and the rest of the Yankees will fly back to New York.
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Morosi followed up today that SF would need one of Burnes, Woodruff or Peralta to be included. I'd say no deal. I give it 50/50 odds that two of those three outperform MadBum in 2019 alone.
MadBum will easily outperform all three of these guys next year.
That being said, I agree that I would not do the trade if I had to include one of the three. Not worth it for one year of service. If he had 3 years left, I would do it in a heartbeat.
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Morosi followed up today that SF would need one of Burnes, Woodruff or Peralta to be included. I'd say no deal. I give it 50/50 odds that two of those three outperform MadBum in 2019 alone.
No chance I'd give up the control the Crew has over those 3 for Baumgarner.
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I’d be fine giving up Peralta.
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I’d be fine giving up Peralta.
+1. Until Peralta shows any semblance of third pitch, his ceiling is exactly what he was in the playoffs - a long reliever/2 times through the order starter. If we have to give up a top pitching prospect, I hope he's the one.
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Morosi followed up today that SF would need one of Burnes, Woodruff or Peralta to be included. I'd say no deal. I give it 50/50 odds that two of those three outperform MadBum in 2019 alone.
He did say they were involved in initial talks. My read is that the price has come down to Ray.
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Morosi followed up today that SF would need one of Burnes, Woodruff or Peralta to be included. I'd say no deal. I give it 50/50 odds that two of those three outperform MadBum in 2019 alone.
Does that even matter? Who would you rather have on the mound in the playoffs? Peralta or Bumgarner? Seems like a pretty easy question.
And, gosh do the Brewers love former White Sox relievers.
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Does that even matter? Who would you rather have on the mound in the playoffs? Peralta or Bumgarner? Seems like a pretty easy question.
Exactly. The guy is one of the premier World Series pitchers of our lifetime. And it's nice to have control over all these young guys, but at some point, if you feel like it's time to take a shot, that's when you have to make the move.
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Exactly. The guy is one of the premier World Series pitchers of our lifetime. And it's nice to have control over all these young guys, but at some point, if you feel like it's time to take a shot, that's when you have to make the move.
I understand this, but I don’t think Baumgarner is that guy. His advanced stats have him more of a mid rotation guy and he’s been benefitting from his home park. They could go after a mid-level FA and get similar results without giving up any prospects.
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I understand this, but I don’t think Baumgarner is that guy. His advanced stats have him more of a mid rotation guy and he’s been benefitting from his home park. They could go after a mid-level FA and get similar results without giving up any prospects.
I don't follow it nearly close enough to know. What I fear is that there is a huge difference between Baumgarner THEN vs. Baumgarner NOW. At some price a one year rental makes sense I'm sure. I'll trust Stearn's judgement better than my own.
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I understand this, but I don’t think Baumgarner is that guy. His advanced stats have him more of a mid rotation guy and he’s been benefitting from his home park. They could go after a mid-level FA and get similar results without giving up any prospects.
For sure. And you're probably right about MadBum. But that's the decision Stearns has to make: is he or isn't he the guy. If he feels like you, then for sure you don't make that deal for anything you really value. But if he thinks he is, time to give up whatever. I'm a Cubs fan, but if I were a Brewers fan, I would seemingly have a lot of trust in what Stearns does at this point.
You guys remind me of where we were after the 2015 season, where we made that a run a lot sooner than expected. In 16 we gave up Gleyber Torres for a few months of Chapman, which was by all means insane because Torres has a whole career of good ball ahead of him. But we don't win the WS without Chapman that year, despite game 7.
It paid off so nobody can complain now. If we didn't though we'd still be hearing about it.
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Does that even matter? Who would you rather have on the mound in the playoffs? Peralta or Bumgarner? Seems like a pretty easy question.
And I guess the difference is that for me, this isn't the question. I think we've been unduly influenced by the "now or never" 2011 run and the traditional model of trading prospects for 162 games of guys to get you over the hump. This Brewers roster doesn't look like a "1 or 2 year window" type team to me. They have 4 years of Yelich, Cain, and Arcia, 3 years of Shaw, and host of controllable #2/3-long reliever type pitchers in Nelson, Burnes, Woodruff, Peralta, Hader. Whether or not that looks like a WS contender can be debated, but if you think they're really good, they will be good for years. If you think they were smoke and mirrors last year and are destined for regression, then they're more than a 2019 Madison Bumgarner away. Either way, its tough for me to get excited about the idea of trading controllable mid-tier starting pitching for MadBum.
I understand this, but I don’t think Baumgarner is that guy. His advanced stats have him more of a mid rotation guy and he’s been benefitting from his home park. They could go after a mid-level FA and get similar results without giving up any prospects.
My opinion above is also completely colored by this. His peripherals are plummeting, and he hasn't pitched more than 130 big league innings in two years, after going over 1,000 between 2011-2016 - plus another 100 playoff innings during that stretch. While his playoff runs were historic, I don't think anyone would be excited about a MadBum trade in "Player-A vs Player-B" blind resume test.
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I understand this, but I don’t think Baumgarner is that guy. His advanced stats have him more of a mid rotation guy and he’s been benefitting from his home park. They could go after a mid-level FA and get similar results without giving up any prospects.
This. Not that Bum isn't still a solid mid-rotation guy, but he isn't the super stud he once was. Can potentially get the same production elsewhere without giving up control of young guys.
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No way I'd trade Burnes, Woodruff or Peralta for Bumgarner, but I'd make the trade for Corey Ray. Quality pitching is just too difficult to find.
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No way I'd trade Burnes, Woodruff or Peralta for Bumgarner, but I'd make the trade for Corey Ray. Quality pitching is just too difficult to find.
Agreed. Maybe for Peralta, but not for either of the other two guys. As good as Ray may become, the Brewers are set in 2 of the 3 OF positions for 4 more years, and they have other stud outfielders coming up through the system, so Ray could be expendable for a one year "Ace" like MadBum. And I call him an ace because he would become the Brewers de facto ace on the current roster.
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Brewers sign Grandal.
1 year, $18.25 million
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Brewers sign Grandal.
1 year, $18.25 million
Very little downside to this. If he's worth it, you get first shot at resigning him or (more likely), you get a shot at recouping the QO pick they'll lose this year
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Grandal almost sent the Brewers to the WS last year. He gets another shot at it this year. I hope he succeeds.
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Very little downside to this. If he's worth it, you get first shot at resigning him or (more likely), you get a shot at recouping the QO pick they'll lose this year
No you can't. Players can't receive the QO twice.
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And I guess the difference is that for me, this isn't the question. I think we've been unduly influenced by the "now or never" 2011 run and the traditional model of trading prospects for 162 games of guys to get you over the hump. This Brewers roster doesn't look like a "1 or 2 year window" type team to me. They have 4 years of Yelich, Cain, and Arcia, 3 years of Shaw, and host of controllable #2/3-long reliever type pitchers in Nelson, Burnes, Woodruff, Peralta, Hader. Whether or not that looks like a WS contender can be debated, but if you think they're really good, they will be good for years. If you think they were smoke and mirrors last year and are destined for regression, then they're more than a 2019 Madison Bumgarner away. Either way, its tough for me to get excited about the idea of trading controllable mid-tier starting pitching for MadBum.
My opinion above is also completely colored by this. His peripherals are plummeting, and he hasn't pitched more than 130 big league innings in two years, after going over 1,000 between 2011-2016 - plus another 100 playoff innings during that stretch. While his playoff runs were historic, I don't think anyone would be excited about a MadBum trade in "Player-A vs Player-B" blind resume test.
No, they aren't a one year window team. But why waste a prime year? If he costs you Ray and Peralta, to me that is a no brainer.
Maybe he won't win the Cy Young. Maybe, over 162, he pitches like a 3 starter. Ok that's fine. The bottom line is this:
HE IS ONE OF THE BEST POSTSEASON PITCHERS IN MLB HISTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If your goal is to have a long term run of success like the Dodgers, without winning anything, fine, think long term. If the goal is to bring Milwaukee its first World Series Championship, Bumgarner is the guy you want pitching in the postseason. Is it risky to trade Peralta and Ray for him? Maybe, but that isn't even a sure thing.
You wouldn't trade this
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=peralt000fre
for this
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=bumgama01&t=p&post=1#7-16-sum:pitching_gamelogs_post
Teams can get too caught up in looking long term. When you are in your window, and have a chance to win, you need to take it. You need to blow through the salary cap like Boston. Or trade Gleyber Torres. The Brewers are a team that could contend for the World Series. Their one obvious weakness is their SPs, especially in the playoffs. He isn't a massive commitment in years or dollars, I think he is an absolutely perfect fit for the Brewers. And I can't imagine being gun shy about acquiring him for Freddy Peralta.
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I actually think the starting rotation is very underrated for Milwaukee. My hope is they bring Miley back. If they do that there is a lot of depth there. Chacin, Nelson, Anderson, Woodruff, Burnes, Davies, Miley, Peralta.
Having said that I’ll repeat I have no problem trading Peralta to get MadBum. We need to only look 90 miles south to the NL Central runner ups to see what trading for a former ace who appears washed up can do for a pitching rotation.
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I actually think the starting rotation is very underrated for Milwaukee. My hope is they bring Miley back. If they do that there is a lot of depth there. Chacin, Nelson, Anderson, Woodruff, Burnes, Davies, Miley, Peralta.
What I see there is a very deep rotation of starters whose ceilings are #2-#3 guys. If the Brewers go into 2019 with just that group, expect to see a lot of funny rotation management.
I wouldn't be too shocked to see Counsell implement a piggy-back starters plan, like they do in the minors. Put everyone on three days rest, but schedule two guys for each game. Start Chacin for 4-5 innings, then bring in Davies for 3-4, and bull pen to finish. Next day, run Nelson out there and bring in Anderson for a change of pace mid-game.
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He'll be he highest paid player on the team, which will be interesting. I expected Kratz to have a huge drop off so I'm ok with it. I think Grandal was in his own head in the post season, which I was perfectly fine with. Not sure what our budget is or where this puts them for the rest of the free agency window but 2b is still a black hole that hopefully they can put someone like lawrie into. I doubt the team can afford someone like dj lemahieu now, which I'm ok with.
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2b is still a black hole
Only until Hiura and/or Dubon show up. Perez/Saladino/Spangenberg might be enough for a few months.
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Only until Hiura and/or Dubon show up. Perez/Saladino/Spangenberg might be enough for a few months.
I think that the problem with filling the 2B hole is not wanting to commit to more than one year on a deal with anyone simply because Hiura and Dubon are waiting in the wings.
I'm guessing one or both to get on the big club and to hold down the position as the primary starter by year's end.
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I think that the problem with filling the 2B hole is not wanting to commit to more than one year on a deal with anyone simply because Hiura and Dubon are waiting in the wings.
I'm guessing one or both to get on the big club and to hold down the position as the primary starter by year's end.
Still holding out hope for Marwin Gonlzalez. Can hold down 2B until kids are ready to come up and then can play the role he did for Houston as a super UT. Also, as a switch hitter provides even versatility.
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Maybe he won't win the Cy Young. Maybe, over 162, he pitches like a 3 starter. Ok that's fine. The bottom line is this:
HE IS ONE OF THE BEST POSTSEASON PITCHERS IN MLB HISTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If your goal is to have a long term run of success like the Dodgers, without winning anything, fine, think long term. If the goal is to bring Milwaukee its first World Series Championship, Bumgarner is the guy you want pitching in the postseason.
I don't understand what you're saying here. Is the argument that he pitches like a #3 starter until the playoffs, at which point the Brewers would count on him to morph back into a superhero? Because trading Peralta and Ray for a guy that pitches to #3 numbers, when the Brewers already have #3/4 depth, is not fine. To Wades' point, the optimistic view is guys like Lester, Verlander, and even Hamels, who all pitched a bunch of innings, declined, and then bounced back after trades. But MadBum's mid-decade playoff success doesn't make this a no brainer. I'm not selling the farm for Hunter Pence either.
No, they aren't a one year window team. But why waste a prime year? If he costs you Ray and Peralta, to me that is a no brainer...
Teams can get too caught up in looking long term. When you are in your window, and have a chance to win, you need to take it. You need to blow through the salary cap like Boston. Or trade Gleyber Torres. The Brewers are a team that could contend for the World Series. Their one obvious weakness is their SPs, especially in the playoffs. He isn't a massive commitment in years or dollars, I think he is an absolutely perfect fit for the Brewers. And I can't imagine being gun shy about acquiring him for Freddy Peralta.
The opportunity cost of trading prospects isn't just that you're mortgaging the future. Even if you view prospects as nothing but trade capital, it restricts your ability to make future deals. Take Moose - pretty decent production: .256 avg, 8 bombs, a clutch postseason hit, lineup protection, clear L/R splits. But that cost Brett Phillips, who at the time was the team's #10 prospect. Was 64 games of Moose worth the #10 prospect? A good debate to be had, and that's acknowledging that Phillips was blocked and I couldn't care less about never seeing him on the big league roster. But maybe he could have been a part of this MadBum deal and we wouldn't be talking about Corey Ray. This year, due to the Claudio deal and Grandal signing, the Brewers have 2 picks in the top 100. Again, that's fine, but this adds up. Fangraphs already puts Mil's farm system at #22 in the majors. Most publications had it 4-8 pre-2017. The Brewers have already been priced out of Kluber. What if Washington turns seller and deals Strasburg? What if Zack Wheeler repeats his 2018 and is available at the deadline?
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Still holding out hope for Marwin Gonlzalez. Can hold down 2B until kids are ready to come up and then can play the role he did for Houston as a super UT. Also, as a switch hitter provides even versatility.
I'd love Marwin, but I think he's going to get paid. MLBTR had him at 36 over 4, and I think once Machado is off the market, teams are going to start lining up for him. I still think there's an outside chance one of the decent names on the 2B market is left without a chair as spring training draws closer, though, and maybe settles for a 1 year $3-5M-ish deal. Asdrubal Cabrera could be a really nice, versatile piece if Mil can find the payroll flexibility to fit him in. Ditto Josh Harrison. Derek Dietrich can do stuff.
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I get the impressions from Haudricourt that the Grandal deal has priced us out of Bumgarner, so it sounds moot at this point.
Also mentioned that we're still aggressive on getting a 2b.
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Speaking as a Cubs fan (I always feel the need to start with that when discussing the Crew), the thing that most impressed me last season was the managing of the rotation. It was so unconventional and honestly brilliantly done by Counsell. Is that sustainable? Counsell of course did things that way because the bullpen was the strength of his team. Whether or not it still is may depend on what they do with Burnes and Woodruff, but let's say there's no big trade and the bullpen is still the strength. Can that work for another season? The fact that it worked for all last year shocked me, and that's what makes me actually ask this instead of just say no way. The problem, of course, is that the more guys you have to rely on of the course of a game, the more likely somebody is going to have an off day.
Either way, Counsell has made me believe that he will find a way to get the most out of his players and use them each in a way that benefits the team.
Central is going to be a warzone this year.
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I don't understand what you're saying here. Is the argument that he pitches like a #3 starter until the playoffs, at which point the Brewers would count on him to morph back into a superhero? Because trading Peralta and Ray for a guy that pitches to #3 numbers, when the Brewers already have #3/4 depth, is not fine. To Wades' point, the optimistic view is guys like Lester, Verlander, and even Hamels, who all pitched a bunch of innings, declined, and then bounced back after trades. But MadBum's mid-decade playoff success doesn't make this a no brainer. I'm not selling the farm for Hunter Pence either.
The opportunity cost of trading prospects isn't just that you're mortgaging the future. Even if you view prospects as nothing but trade capital, it restricts your ability to make future deals. Take Moose - pretty decent production: .256 avg, 8 bombs, a clutch postseason hit, lineup protection, clear L/R splits. But that cost Brett Phillips, who at the time was the team's #10 prospect. Was 64 games of Moose worth the #10 prospect? A good debate to be had, and that's acknowledging that Phillips was blocked and I couldn't care less about never seeing him on the big league roster. But maybe he could have been a part of this MadBum deal and we wouldn't be talking about Corey Ray. This year, due to the Claudio deal and Grandal signing, the Brewers have 2 picks in the top 100. Again, that's fine, but this adds up. Fangraphs already puts Mil's farm system at #22 in the majors. Most publications had it 4-8 pre-2017. The Brewers have already been priced out of Kluber. What if Washington turns seller and deals Strasburg? What if Zack Wheeler repeats his 2018 and is available at the deadline?
If that is the comparison you make. Well, I don't know what to tell you. Other than maybe watch more baseball. Bumgarner would have had the best ERA on the Brewers last year - by quite a bit (except Miley, nut he threw 50 more innings). 2nd best in K/9, best in K/BB. I think you are being either hyperbolic or ignorant here.
And yeah, I think you can count him to Ace up in the playoffs. Do you think pitching in the llayoffs is different? Bumgarner seems to thrive on it where others wilt.
Oh, and Strasburg has like 5 more years on his deal. I don't think he'd be the guy sold off, and if he was he would cost a lot more than Ray and Peralta. Then you have to pay him what remains of the 130 million that is on his deal, which doesn't seem like a Brewer thing to do (I am assuming it is unlikely he opts out).
Another note, Corey Ray K'd in 33% of his ABs in AA. It isn't like he is Vlad Jr. There is a high ceiling for him, but also a high variance.
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If that is the comparison you make. Well, I don't know what to tell you. Other than maybe watch more baseball. Bumgarner would have had the best ERA on the Brewers last year - by quite a bit (except Miley, nut he threw 50 more innings). 2nd best in K/9, best in K/BB. I think you are being either hyperbolic or ignorant here.
Again, I'm not arguing that Bumgarner wouldn't slot in as a useful piece on the Brewers. But of the numbers you're citing: his ERA was 3.26 - three Brewers starters were below 4.0; his K/9 were 7.6 - four Brewers starters were above 7; his K/BB 2.53 - 5 Brewers starters were were 2.2 or higher. If you're using his 2018 numbers, he looks like just another guy in the context of the rest of the Brewers staff (already a group of just a bunch of guys). He averages out to about the #1.5-2 starter. Add to that Bumgarner's miles and obvious signs of decline - contrasted against the reasons for optimism for the Brewers up and coming arms - and I don't think its a given that MadBum's 2019 stats look any better among Milwaukee's pitchers if we're having this debate in 2020.
If the argument is that MadBum will go Lester or Verlander, his fastball speed will come back up and he'll stop walking people (only Junior Guerra had a worse WHIP than MadBum among Mil's qualifying starters) sure, I'd love to hear the reasons for that optimism. I actually want the Brewers to add a quality starter, and MadBum does seem like one of the best available. But quality wise, that also isn't saying much, and the rationale for the trade can't just be that he was unreal for 50 IP in 2014 playoffs and great for another 14 playoff innings in 2016. Hell, MadBum's second half was notably worse than his first half last year. For me this has very little to do with being worried about seeing Corey Ray play for the Brewers. Its got much more to do with hamstringing future trade and financial flexibility. From my selfish fan perspective, pitchers will shake loose in the next 6-7 months that I as a fan am more excited about than MadBum, and I want Stearns to have the resources to make that move when it arises.
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I think that the problem with filling the 2B hole is not wanting to commit to more than one year on a deal with anyone simply because Hiura and Dubon are waiting in the wings.
I'm guessing one or both to get on the big club and to hold down the position as the primary starter by year's end.
As a follow up here, I think Stearns is intentionally broadcasting that the Brewers' are "aggressively pursuing" a 2B/3B since the Grandal deal, to create leverage. And I love it. If I had to guess, "passive-aggressively pursuing" would be a better characterization. Every other significant move the Brewers have made has been very quiet until it was announced, so its a bit out of character for this to be so public.
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Grandal almost sent the Brewers to the WS last year. He gets another shot at it this year. I hope he succeeds.
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/yasmani-grandal-is-better-than-this/
Great informative article on Grandal including what a great defensive catcher he actually is.
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Yankees out on Machado.
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From my selfish fan perspective, pitchers will shake loose in the next 6-7 months that I as a fan am more excited about than MadBum, and I want Stearns to have the resources to make that move when it arises.
Ok. Whatever you think. An ERA under 4 is basically the same as 3.26. Ok.
If Bumgarner pitches 80 innings with a 3.49 ERA with 7.6 K/9 and a 1.25 WHIP in the first half next season, it will take a whole lot more than Corey Ray and Freddy Peralta to get him. And those 21 other teams with better farm systems, well, some of them may be in the hunt and need a starter. Then the Brewers end up with next year's Gio Gonzalez instead of Madison Bumgarner. Who is the guy that is better that the Brewers will be able to get with a bottom third farm system? They probably won't buy a bad contract like Greinke.
Here are the pitchers that are going to be free agents next season.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/08/2019-20-mlb-free-agents.html
These are the best opportunities for that rental trade. Who is better? Will they be available? I doubt guys like Sale, Verlander and Cole will be traded. Archer? Maybe, but he has never been even this obviously declining version of Bumgarner. Good luck finding that guy. And good luck competing with the farm system strength of teams like that Astros, Yankees, and Dodgers for those assets midseason.
Bumgarner is clearly the best pitcher likely to be available.
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buckchucker, just spewing straight facts.
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I don't want to hijack the thread and ultimately this is all about prognostication that can't be proven for another 6 months, so I'll take fiver on this one after this:
Ok. Whatever you think. An ERA under 4 is basically the same as 3.26. Ok.
I concede ERA was the biggest gap of the other three stats you listed. But ERA also hides the most warts in MadBum's declining peripherals. His ERA was okay last year, but his other numbers suggest his stuff isn't what it used to be, and most of his other stats are largely indistinguishable from the Brewers other starters.
If Bumgarner pitches 80 innings with a 3.49 ERA with 7.6 K/9 and a 1.25 WHIP in the first half next season, it will take a whole lot more than Corey Ray and Freddy Peralta to get him.
Is that true? There haven't been a lot of deadline deals for pitchers on expiring contracts lately, but here are two from 2018 with vaguely similar stats got dealt at this year's deadline:
J.A. Happ: 109 IP, 4.29 ERA, 9.99 K/9, 1.19 WHIP. The return was Brandon Drury and a prospect that was 25th in the Feb 2018 Yankees system rankings.
Cole Hamels: 109 IP, 4.36 ERA, 8.97 K/9 and 1.34 WHIP. The return was Eddie Butler, a disappointing 27 year old former top prospect with a 5.71 big league ERA and Rollie Lacy, who didn't rank in the Cubs top 30 prospects.
I'm not as unreasonable as you think I am - I acknowledge that the 3.49 ERA is a big drop from 4.29 and 4.36. But both Happ's and Hamels's first half xFIPs were better than Bumgarner's 2018 xFIP, so the gap isn't as big as it looks. I also acknowledge that MadBum's playoff history would fetch a higher price than Happ or Hamels at similar stats. But I don't think those bumps warrant a jump up to Peralta and Ray.
Here are the pitchers that are going to be free agents next season.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/08/2019-20-mlb-free-agents.html
Bumgarner is clearly the best pitcher likely to be available.
If Stras is having a good year, I think he declines his option - its worth $100M over 4 and Corbin is the same age and just signed a 6 yr $140M deal. Of the others, Alex Wood and Zack Wheeler both had better 2018s than MadBum. And that's assuming pitchers from Phi, Hou, ChC, Cle, LAD and StL are all unavailable.
This debate for me isn't whether 2011-2016 MadBum is worth Peralta and Ray. He is, #donedeal. Its about whether 2017-2018 MadBum is worth Peralta and Ray (for me, he isn't) and if not, whether you think 2011-2016 MadBum is sufficiently likely to return to spend a big remaining chunk of your trade capital (I'm pessimistic).
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I don't want to hijack the thread and ultimately this is all about prognostication that can't be proven for another 6 months, so I'll take fiver on this one after this:
I concede ERA was the biggest gap of the other three stats you listed. But ERA also hides the most warts in MadBum's declining peripherals. His ERA was okay last year, but his other numbers suggest his stuff isn't what it used to be, and most of his other stats are largely indistinguishable from the Brewers other starters.
Is that true? There haven't been a lot of deadline deals for pitchers on expiring contracts lately, but here are two from 2018 with vaguely similar stats got dealt at this year's deadline:
J.A. Happ: 109 IP, 4.29 ERA, 9.99 K/9, 1.19 WHIP. The return was Brandon Drury and a prospect that was 25th in the Feb 2018 Yankees system rankings.
Cole Hamels: 109 IP, 4.36 ERA, 8.97 K/9 and 1.34 WHIP. The return was Eddie Butler, a disappointing 27 year old former top prospect with a 5.71 big league ERA and Rollie Lacy, who didn't rank in the Cubs top 30 prospects.
I'm not as unreasonable as you think I am - I acknowledge that the 3.49 ERA is a big drop from 4.29 and 4.36. But both Happ's and Hamels's first half xFIPs were better than Bumgarner's 2018 xFIP, so the gap isn't as big as it looks. I also acknowledge that MadBum's playoff history would fetch a higher price than Happ or Hamels at similar stats. But I don't think those bumps warrant a jump up to Peralta and Ray.
If Stras is having a good year, I think he declines his option - its worth $100M over 4 and Corbin is the same age and just signed a 6 yr $140M deal. Of the others, Alex Wood and Zack Wheeler both had better 2018s than MadBum. And that's assuming pitchers from Phi, Hou, ChC, Cle, LAD and StL are all unavailable.
This debate for me isn't whether 2011-2016 MadBum is worth Peralta and Ray. He is, #donedeal. Its about whether 2017-2018 MadBum is worth Peralta and Ray (for me, he isn't) and if not, whether you think 2011-2016 MadBum is sufficiently likely to return to spend a big remaining chunk of your trade capital (I'm pessimistic).
Ok, that is fine, and completely fair, but probably doesn't make him any more likely to be traded. Even if the Nats are terrible. Then his trade would be more complicated because of the option looming. I think him being moved is incredibly unlikely.
Do you think either of those guys are better? If Wheeler is available it is because the Mets didn't play well, which probably means their pitching failed. That may make Wheeler less attractive.
Wood will likely be available. I'd rather have Bumgarner. Isn't very close, actually. Wood is fine. You know how many games he started in his team's run to the WS last year? Not a single one.
Yeah, not much traded for Cole Hamels. His ERA was 4.76 and his WHIP was 1.37 at the time of the trade, and he is 4 years older. They were trading for him hoping he found some magic of being in a pennant chase. He did.
JA Happ netted the Jays at least a decent MLB player, but JA Happ is not Bumgarner.
But it doesn't matter. Sounds like it isn't a thing anyways.
The real reason I wanted to post, is that there seems to be quite a lot of optimism that the Sox could have a pretty good 3B pretty soon.
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I believe by the end of the week, Manny Machado will sign with the Sox.
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I believe by the end of the week, Manny Machado will sign with the Sox.
(https://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/original/104/1046196/2955538-0192112613-8quPb.gif)
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Based on what I’ve put together, I would be more surprised if he signed elsewhere at this point. Nothing is #donedeal until pen to paper, but there is a ton of smoke starting to burn on this one. I do know for certain that the Sox hope and preference is that whatever happens, happens this week.
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I wonder if Arenado is hurting Machado's market at all. I've seen him linked to the Yankees (can't remember where) and it seems teams might be saying "well, make a lower offer to Machado, and if we don't get him and still really need a 3B next year, we can break the bank for Arenado." I could see NYY, Atl, StL, one or both LA teams (LAA would need to have a plan for adding to the team and resigning Trout) being in on Arenado.
If I had to guess, whether its 7 or 8 yrs, Machado's best offer in hand is from the Sox, but he's not excited about it, so Boras is advertising it to try to get another team to swoop in.
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I wonder if Arenado is hurting Machado's market at all. I've seen him linked to the Yankees (can't remember where) and it seems teams might be saying "well, make a lower offer to Machado, and if we don't get him and still really need a 3B next year, we can break the bank for Arenado." I could see NYY, Atl, StL, one or both LA teams (LAA would need to have a plan for adding to the team and resigning Trout) being in on Arenado.
If I had to guess, whether its 7 or 8 yrs, Machado's best offer in hand is from the Sox, but he's not excited about it, so Boras is advertising it to try to get another team to swoop in.
Boras is not Machado’s agent.
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Boras is not Machado’s agent.
Doh! My bad. I see Machado is with Lozano. Probably had Boras in my brain from all the Harper updates.
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Grandal's presser today sounded a lot like what press conferences a couple of years before work stoppages sound like :/
Two years into the competitive balance tax era, and from the players' perspective, its not working. The soft cap has been suppressing spending without guaranteeing the players a percentage of revenues. Tough to see that structure getting extended.
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Grandal's presser today sounded a lot like what press conferences a couple of years before work stoppages sound like :/
Two years into the competitive balance tax era, and from the players' perspective, its not working. The soft cap has been suppressing spending without guaranteeing the players a percentage of revenues. Tough to see that structure getting extended.
Not sure if it is the soft cap or that history says that these long term contracts for big money generally work against the team. Probably a little of both. The Red Sox (for the first time in the FA era, I believe), had the highest payroll this year, but only paid $12M in luxury tax, which John Henry probably found in his couch cushions.
I think the math of these contracts generally work against the players, because they have their most value in their younger years when their salary is artificially reduced. Not sure what the process for rectifying this issue is.
Machado and Harper are younger than the usual FA, so I would think they would be more immune to that kind of thinking. Even so, I'd rather have either of them for 4 years at $160M than 10 years at $300M. Essentially more per annum for less years, whatever the numbers work out to be. If, in four years, I'm angry that I made that deal, I would likely have gotten some great seasons for the money.
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Not sure if it is the soft cap or that history says that these long term contracts for big money generally work against the team. Probably a little of both. The Red Sox (for the first time in the FA era, I believe), had the highest payroll this year, but only paid $12M in luxury tax, which John Henry probably found in his couch cushions.
I think the math of these contracts generally work against the players, because they have their most value in their younger years when their salary is artificially reduced. Not sure what the process for rectifying this issue is.
Machado and Harper are younger than the usual FA, so I would think they would be more immune to that kind of thinking. Even so, I'd rather have either of them for 4 years at $160M than 10 years at $300M. Essentially more per annum for less years, whatever the numbers work out to be. If, in four years, I'm angry that I made that deal, I would likely have gotten some great seasons for the money.
Everyone is mentioning the word "collusion." And while that may be happening to some extent, I think you hit the nail on the head. Owners don't want to pay the back end of these large contracts when they can get good value from younger players at a much cheaper rate. Why would Attannacio shell out $$$ over a long time for a big name free agent when he was one game away from the WS last year?
The only way to rectify the issue is by adjusting the collective bargaining agreement to give players access to free agency earlier. But that's not going to happen without a strike, and as with all sports these days, the owners are in a much better bargaining possession.
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Remember John Wettland?
Another member of the late 90s Yankees dynasty accused of being a kid-diddler.
https://www.star-telegram.com/news/state/texas/article224564670.html
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Collusion because an OK catcher was able to get only $18 million?
How is he supposed to feed Latrell Sprewell's family on that?
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Collusion because an OK catcher was able to get only $18 million?
How is he supposed to feed Latrell Sprewell's family on that?
He also reportedly turned down a 4/60 offer from the Mets.
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Collusion because an OK catcher was able to get only $18 million?
How is he supposed to feed Latrell Sprewell's family on that?
No one is questioning whether he has enough to live with. But when you look at what catchers rated similarly, and then look across the MLB landscape, there's no doubt that there is a recalibration. I don't know if it's collusion or teams leaning on analytics or the existence of the softcap, but Yasmani is worth a lot more.
Would we be saying the same thing if Rodgers had somehow gotten less than Cousins? That's what's happening.
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No one is questioning whether he has enough to live with. But when you look at what catchers rated similarly, and then look across the MLB landscape, there's no doubt that there is a recalibration. I don't know if it's collusion or teams leaning on analytics or the existence of the softcap, but Yasmani is worth a lot more.
Would we be saying the same thing if Rodgers had somehow gotten less than Cousins? That's what's happening.
He made a bad decision and passed on his best and most aggressive suitor. They called his bluff and moved to the next guy.
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No one is questioning whether he has enough to live with. But when you look at what catchers rated similarly, and then look across the MLB landscape, there's no doubt that there is a recalibration. I don't know if it's collusion or teams leaning on analytics or the existence of the softcap, but Yasmani is worth a lot more.
Would we be saying the same thing if Rodgers had somehow gotten less than Cousins? That's what's happening.
I'll defer to you. I haven't followed the landscape closely enough.
I have seen Grindal plenty. Not a great player is being generous. $18M+. Seems not very collosion-y to me. In 1987, arguably the best starting pitcher in baseball (Jack Morris) couldn't get a contract offer from anybody. THAT was collusion!
Oh, and I'm not arguing with you, GBW. Just not seeing a ton of evidence. Maybe I need to update my definition of collusion; that's certainly possible.
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I'll defer to you. I haven't followed the landscape closely enough.
I have seen Grindal plenty. Not a great player is being generous. $18M+. Seems not very collosion-y to me. In 1987, arguably the best starting pitcher in baseball (Jack Morris) couldn't get a contract offer from anybody. THAT was collusion!
Oh, and I'm not arguing with you, GBW. Just not seeing a ton of evidence. Maybe I need to update my definition of collusion; that's certainly possible.
And I'm not saying it's collision in the traditional sense. But there is a confluence of things working against the players, and they'll all be the center of the next CBA
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And I'm not saying it's collision in the traditional sense. But there is a confluence of things working against the players, and they'll all be the center of the next CBA
Maybe the owners are just getting better at colluding!
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I don't understand the reasons at this point in time why the owners would collude. Why now and not 10-15 years ago? I just think baseball people are getting smarter about not paying a huge amount for players that give you marginal increases in productivity. Why pay what could likely be 3-4 years for an overpriced Machado or Harper, when you could have cheaper options that are just as good down the line?
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I don't know if it's collusion or teams leaning on analytics or the existence of the softcap, but Yasmani is worth a lot more.
This. To the extent there's anything nefarious going on, its the suspicion that analytics and the softcap are both being used as fronts to excuse the shift of a greater proportion of earnings to the owners and away from the players. IIRC, player payrolls used to be about 60% of revenue around the year 2000, but have since dropped below 50%. I think Tony Clark looked at baseball's spending history, and agreed to a soft cap assuming the owners would actually treat it as a soft cap - and its going to cost him his job.
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Remember John Wettland?
Another member of the late 90s Yankees dynasty accused of being a kid-diddler.
https://www.star-telegram.com/news/state/texas/article224564670.html
This is horrific. What a scumbag.
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And I'm not saying it's collision in the traditional sense. But there is a confluence of things working against the players, and they'll all be the center of the next CBA
No collusion!
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Lots of meatball takes on the Olney report that the Sox offered Machado 7/$175.
If that is indeed their offer, it's been on the table for weeks. Secondly, it's their first offer, why would or should they keep bidding against themselves? What other team (with the knowledge of what $ amount Machado has offered from the Sox) has come in and blown that away? It's literally been WEEKS since the initial offer was made. Hell, the Yankees made a proactive decision to go sign LeMahieu after knowing what the market was for Machado.
Tons of posturing coming out the last couple of days because the Sox offer currently and has been the best offer. The Sox know this too, none of the info coming out is coming from them, they have held their ground because they don't need to counteroffer (yet) because no one has beaten their offer.
The collusion stuff and is Manny worth more are another topic, but the amount of meatball takes out there are ridiculous.
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Lots of meatball takes on the Olney report that the Sox offered Machado 7/$175.
If that is indeed their offer, it's been on the table for weeks. Secondly, it's their first offer, why would or should they keep bidding against themselves? What other team (with the knowledge of what $ amount Machado has offered from the Sox) has come in and blown that away? It's literally been WEEKS since the initial offer was made. Hell, the Yankees made a proactive decision to go sign LeMahieu after knowing what the market was for Machado.
Tons of posturing coming out the last couple of days because the Sox offer currently and has been the best offer. The Sox know this too, none of the info coming out is coming from them, they have held their ground because they don't need to counteroffer (yet) because no one has beaten their offer.
The collusion stuff and is Manny worth more are another topic, but the amount of meatball takes out there are ridiculous.
Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal
Current offers for Machado not known. But Machado’s agent, Dan Lozano, issued a statement saying reports of a seven-year, $175M offer by the #WhiteSox to Machado are inaccurate.
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Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal
Current offers for Machado not known. But Machado’s agent, Dan Lozano, issued a statement saying reports of a seven-year, $175M offer by the #WhiteSox to Machado are inaccurate.
Lozano’s press release basically rolled the bus over Olney and Nightengale. Not a good look at all for those two guys.
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Harper lands where?
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Harper lands where?
My guess is the Phillies. (And Machado with the White Sox).
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Lozano’s press release basically rolled the bus over Olney and Nightengale. Not a good look at all for those two guys.
But just as reporters can say "sources tell me" so too can the agent say "reporters are wrong" using precisely the same level of demonstrated facts. Lozano could have a 7/$175M offer (or maybe the deal is 8/$201M w/ year 8 an option, making both technically correct) in hand and still throw the reporters under the bus with no repercussions. He'll have info that Olney and co will want that he wants to leak on the next deal and the deal after that.
Olney and other reporters are useful to agents/owners, and vice versa. Everyone will be fine (except maybe Machado who will be forced to play for below market value somewhere, I guess he's sorta hurt by this).
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Lozano’s press release basically rolled the bus over Olney and Nightengale. Not a good look at all for those two guys.
See I read this differently. I think Lozano has only had the $175/7 offer in hand for Machado this entire time. He "leaked" that report of an 8 year offer to try to get the ChiSox up to 8, to try to drum up interest beyond what Chicago was offering, or both. After a day or two of putting in the time and getting in touch with Chicago's front office, everyone caught up to Lozano's posturing and now he's the one that looks full of crap.
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See I read this differently. I think Lozano has only had the $175/7 offer in hand for Machado this entire time. He "leaked" that report of an 8 year offer to try to get the ChiSox up to 8, to try to drum up interest beyond what Chicago was offering, or both. After a day or two of putting in the time and getting in touch with Chicago's front office, everyone caught up to Lozano's posturing and now he's the one that looks full of crap.
Lozano says the reports about 7/$175 million are "completely wrong" and that Olney's and Nightengale's sources are "intentionally misleading" them or "flat out lying."
Doesn't seem to be much wiggle room there. I don't think he can honestly make that statement if there is indeed a 7/$175 million offer in hand. So, either he's lying or Olney/Nightengale are wrong. There's no other way to read it, that I can see.
Also, how would leaking that the White sox made an 8-year offer prod the Sox to make an 8-year offer?
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Jficke and Burrow make good points. I don't get a ton of info from my Sox front office friends, I'll see them next week at SoxFest, but I asked what the temp on Machado was right now. From what I can gather, and what I had mentioned earlier this week is that there were full expectations from Machado's camp that this was going to be the week that a decision was going to be made. The Sox have strongly believed their offer is the best out there. I have no idea what their offer is, but for some context, if it was $175/7, that would make Machado the 4th highest paid AAV for a position player, so it's not ridiculously low as some indicated, and again, it was their opening offer.
I certainly don't blame Lozano in the least for getting every last dollar for his client, and if the Phils/Yankees came in with $30 mil a year, he should take it if it's the best offer. I don't know who put the info out there yesterday, it obviously wasn't the Sox. If Lozano leaked it, doesn't it on the surface make him look desperate at this point? It seems rare for an agent to come out with the statement then there after. I mean he could certainly have orchestrated the entire thing from the leak to the statement, but down the road in negotiations it's certainly going to limit him from negotiating with certain owners. I'm sure Reinsdorf is pissed, as he personally has been involved in these negotiations. I'm all for posturing to get every dollar one can on the open market, but this has certainly turned into an odd dance for all parties involved.
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I had read the 8 year leak to be a false flag from Lozano. I remembered that report not being team specific - but looking back it seems most reports linked it to Chicago. Either way, I thought it was information that Lozano floated and then could take to another team. Even if the report said it was CWS, if Chicago's front office knew it wasn't them, Lozano could say "meh, reports have the team wrong but the numbers are pretty much right" and then CWS would be bidding against themselves. I'll grant that this theory would is not exactly Occam's Razor.
The part I'm most confused about from Lozano's press release - the assumption is that Lozano is trying to get everyone to believe the offer he has is better than $175/7, yes? What incentive would Olney or Nightengale's sources have to lie to say its lower? Wouldn't undercutting your offer in the press actually increase the likelihood other teams get involved?
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Cubs could've used Ottavino.
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The part I'm most confused about from Lozano's press release - the assumption is that Lozano is trying to get everyone to believe the offer he has is better than $175/7, yes? What incentive would Olney or Nightengale's sources have to lie to say its lower? Wouldn't undercutting your offer in the press actually increase the likelihood other teams get involved?
Some completely wild speculation:
1. Some other/rival club thinks the Sox are going to get steal on Machado and want to encourage other teams to get involved in the bidding.
2. Lozano is knowingly leaking a bogus offer to get other teams involved in the bidding.
3. The agent of a similarly situated player is looking to drive up the market for all-star corner infielders, making his client more valuable in 2020 (see: Arenado, Nolan; Donaldson, Josh).
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Agents are notorious "exaggerators" (I'll be nice and not call them liars) in these kinds of situations.
Their job is to get the best deal for their clients, and they'll do whatever they can as long as it's legal (and sometimes even if it's not).
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Cubs (Insert MLB team) could've used Ottavino.
I think that works.
The Yankees have built themselves a great bullpen again it seems.
I am amazed at the lack of movement from last years playoff teams. The Braves added a 3B on a pillow contract, the Brewers added Grandal, the Cubs have added no one, the Rockies have only lost guys, the Dodgers have only lost guys, the Red Sox have only lost guys, the Astros have lost a couple key pitchers, but did add a very good,though injury prone hitter.
The best move of the offseason, at least on paper is clearly the Cardinals and Goldy, other than that it looks like that Yanks, Nats and Reds have improved the most. It has been a weird offseason indeed.
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Evan Longoria's comments today, didn't exactly get a warm reception on Instagram by many.
"We are less then a month from the start of spring and once again some of our games biggest starts remain unsigned. Such a shame. It’s seems every day now someone is making up a new analytical tool to devalue players, especially free agents. As fans, why should “value” for your team even be a consideration? It’s not your money, it’s money that players have worked their whole lives to get to that level and be deserving of. Bottom line, fans should want the best players and product on the field for their team. And as players we need to stand strong for what we believe we are worth and continue to fight for the rights we have fought for time and time again."
It's not your money? Hmm, I think Evan might want to understand how ticket prices, television sports rights fees, etc, are computed and how they hit the average Joe SixPack fan. Not grounded in reality. And isn't what anyone has earned over their entire lifetime a product of their hard work? This screams out of touch.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BsyUZScney4/?utm_source=ig_embed
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Machado to Padres, the mystery team?
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Evan Longoria's comments today, didn't exactly get a warm reception on Instagram by many.
"We are less then a month from the start of spring and once again some of our games biggest starts remain unsigned. Such a shame. It’s seems every day now someone is making up a new analytical tool to devalue players, especially free agents. As fans, why should “value” for your team even be a consideration? It’s not your money, it’s money that players have worked their whole lives to get to that level and be deserving of. Bottom line, fans should want the best players and product on the field for their team. And as players we need to stand strong for what we believe we are worth and continue to fight for the rights we have fought for time and time again."
It's not your money? Hmm, I think Evan might want to understand how ticket prices, television sports rights fees, etc, are computed and how they hit the average Joe SixPack fan. Not grounded in reality. And isn't what anyone has earned over their entire lifetime a product of their hard work? This screams out of touch.
He didn't word it well. But to position his quote as Evan Longoria vs the fans without mentioning the owners is really disingenuous.
Its clear he's talking about the suspicion that owners are using analytics as a straw man to cheap out on free agents. He doesn't separate the two ideas well, but the bolded sentence is the real point. "Value" is only important if you take it as a given that your owner is setting his spending limit to maximize his own return. Every team in the league "could afford" to sign Machado - the owners appealing to value through analytics is to distract from the fact that they've been shifting greater proportions of revenue from the players to the owners. Longoria's point is that the result is that owners are pointing to value while declining to put the best possible product on the field.
There are two important ways to look at MLB spending. One is MLB as a whole year over year and the other is team vs team within a given year. The owners insistence on value and reliance on analytics would hold a lot more water if the players were getting the same pro-rata share of recent years' record revenues as they were of 90s and early 2000s revenues. But they aren't. When looking team vs team, value is real - if you're a GM, your owner will only spend what he'll spend, so you've got to use analytics to spend that money as intelligently as possible. But when looking at MLB averages year over year, analytics is used as an opportunity to shift earnings to the owners. Using analytics to defend the owners retaining a greater percentage of revenue makes no sense. They are two different discussions.
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Joc Pederson to the Sox rumblings starting up.
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He didn't word it well. But to position his quote as Evan Longoria vs the fans without mentioning the owners is really disingenuous.
Its clear he's talking about the suspicion that owners are using analytics as a straw man to cheap out on free agents. He doesn't separate the two ideas well, but the bolded sentence is the real point. "Value" is only important if you take it as a given that your owner is setting his spending limit to maximize his own return. Every team in the league "could afford" to sign Machado - the owners appealing to value through analytics is to distract from the fact that they've been shifting greater proportions of revenue from the players to the owners. Longoria's point is that the result is that owners are pointing to value while declining to put the best possible product on the field.
There are two important ways to look at MLB spending. One is MLB as a whole year over year and the other is team vs team within a given year. The owners insistence on value and reliance on analytics would hold a lot more water if the players were getting the same pro-rata share of recent years' record revenues as they were of 90s and early 2000s revenues. But they aren't. When looking team vs team, value is real - if you're a GM, your owner will only spend what he'll spend, so you've got to use analytics to spend that money as intelligently as possible. But when looking at MLB averages year over year, analytics is used as an opportunity to shift earnings to the owners. Using analytics to defend the owners retaining a greater percentage of revenue makes no sense. They are two different discussions.
I’m pretty sure I copied his entire post. The general take away by most of the readers was someone very out of touch. You are right he didn’t write it well. He may have wanted an agent or someone to else to take a look at that before putting it out there.
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AmFam Field?
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AmFam Field?
Maybe we'll trade for Russell Wilson's rights so that we beanball him in spring training
I hope that this means we can challenge the Brewers Logo and unis since we're no longer beholden to the Miller font. Bring back the ball & glove full time.
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AmFam Field?
Terrible. Will be like the Sears Tower, everyone will still call it Miller Park.
And when Amfam is running at a 109 combined ratio, they might not make it 20 years. (Spending $1.09 for every $1 of premium + investments)
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Asdrubal Cabrera was a personal favorite of mine in this market and just went to the Rangers on a 1 yr $3.5M deal. I hope that suggests there is an infield upgrade still in the wings for the Brewers, because I think if you just put Cabrera on the Brewers roster today, he gets more than 400 ABs this season.
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Asdrubal Cabrera was a personal favorite of mine in this market and just went to the Rangers on a 1 yr $3.5M deal. I hope that suggests there is an infield upgrade still in the wings for the Brewers, because I think if you just put Cabrera on the Brewers roster today, he gets more than 400 ABs this season.
Yeah. This is the kind of guy I thought Milwaukee would add to transition to Huira in 2020.
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Mussina, I struggle with this. What did he average, 11 wins a year? Was he ever the best pitcher in baseball in any given year.
Martinez.....why is it that guys don't make it for their entire eligibility until the last year....feels like sympathy vote.....four years ago got 27%. Did his stats change in 4 years? You either are or you aren't a HOFer, but now in 4 years his stats didn't change but he is a HOFer when 4 years ago he wasn't?
I'm not saying they don't deserve it, I'm just questioning what changed? What make 3X the voters who said not for umpteen years, not say yes? Feels like the sympathy award at this point.
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Mussina, I struggle with this. What did he average, 11 wins a year? Was he ever the best pitcher in baseball in any given year.
Martinez.....why is it that guys don't make it for their entire eligibility until the last year....feels like sympathy vote.....four years ago got 27%. Did his stats change in 4 years? You either are or you aren't a HOFer, but now in 4 years his stats didn't change but he is a HOFer when 4 years ago he wasn't?
I'm not saying they don't deserve it, I'm just questioning what changed? What make 3X the voters who said not for umpteen years, not say yes? Feels like the sympathy award at this point.
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Wins is a pretty awful metric to judge a pitcher by. I would concur though that him being a Hall of Famer is a bit surprising. I saw someone say he’d be a starter in the Hall of Very Good. I agree with that. He was very good no doubt, but not sure he was HOF good.
I think the case with Martinez is people were resistant to put a DH in the HOF.
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Mussina, I struggle with this. What did he average, 11 wins a year? Was he ever the best pitcher in baseball in any given year.
Martinez.....why is it that guys don't make it for their entire eligibility until the last year....feels like sympathy vote.....four years ago got 27%. Did his stats change in 4 years? You either are or you aren't a HOFer, but now in 4 years his stats didn't change but he is a HOFer when 4 years ago he wasn't?
I'm not saying they don't deserve it, I'm just questioning what changed? What make 3X the voters who said not for umpteen years, not say yes? Feels like the sympathy award at this point.
Tom Haudricourt defends his votes:
Mike Mussina: The more I looked at Mussina, the more I understood he should get serious consideration for Cooperstown, especially when you consider he pitched his entire career in the rugged AL East. He went 270-153 with a 3.68 ERA, 57 complete games, 23 shutouts and 2,813 strikeouts in 3,562 innings. Mussina had staying power, going 20-9 with a 3.37 ERA in his final season in 2008. Forget the 300-win thing. No one is likely to get to that plateau again.
Edgar Martinez: After years of being denigrated for being merely a designated hitter – which, by the way, happens to be an established role in the AL – Martinez has finally received deserved traction. He batted .312 for his career with a .418 on-base percentage, 2,247 hits, 309 HRs, 1,262 RBI, .933 OPS and 147 OPS+. Martinez was one of the best pure hitters of his generation and it's time to get over the DH thing. Paul Molitor was a DH for half his career. If DHs don't count, eliminate that role.
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Tom Haudricourt defends his votes:
Mike Mussina: The more I looked at Mussina, the more I understood he should get serious consideration for Cooperstown, especially when you consider he pitched his entire career in the rugged AL East. He went 270-153 with a 3.68 ERA, 57 complete games, 23 shutouts and 2,813 strikeouts in 3,562 innings. Mussina had staying power, going 20-9 with a 3.37 ERA in his final season in 2008. Forget the 300-win thing. No one is likely to get to that plateau again.
Edgar Martinez: After years of being denigrated for being merely a designated hitter – which, by the way, happens to be an established role in the AL – Martinez has finally received deserved traction. He batted .312 for his career with a .418 on-base percentage, 2,247 hits, 309 HRs, 1,262 RBI, .933 OPS and 147 OPS+. Martinez was one of the best pure hitters of his generation and it's time to get over the DH thing. Paul Molitor was a DH for half his career. If DHs don't count, eliminate that role.
Mike Mussina - Pitched in the AL East in the steroid error and still dominated.
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Martinez.....why is it that guys don't make it for their entire eligibility until the last year....feels like sympathy vote.....four years ago got 27%. Did his stats change in 4 years? You either are or you aren't a HOFer, but now in 4 years his stats didn't change but he is a HOFer when 4 years ago he wasn't?
I'm not saying they don't deserve it, I'm just questioning what changed? What make 3X the voters who said not for umpteen years, not say yes? Feels like the sympathy award at this point.
Let me put this out there: in his previous nine years on the ballot, every guy who ever finished ahead of Martinez in voting ended up in the Hall of Fame, save three (Bonds, Clemons, Schilling). Same is true with Tim Raines, who was inducted in his 10th year of eligibility in 2017. (He did finish behind Tommy John in his first two years.)
I don't think it's sympathy as much as the mechanics of a system with a fixed number of votes and an expiration date on eligibility. (The DH debate also played a role for Edgar.)
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Mussina, I struggle with this. What did he average, 11 wins a year? Was he ever the best pitcher in baseball in any given year.
Martinez.....why is it that guys don't make it for their entire eligibility until the last year....feels like sympathy vote.....four years ago got 27%. Did his stats change in 4 years? You either are or you aren't a HOFer, but now in 4 years his stats didn't change but he is a HOFer when 4 years ago he wasn't?
I'm not saying they don't deserve it, I'm just questioning what changed? What make 3X the voters who said not for umpteen years, not say yes? Feels like the sympathy award at this point.
Mike Mussina averaged 15 wins a year over an 18 year career. That's very good. Halladay, by comparison, averaged 12.7 in 16 years. I don't thinks wins are as poor of judge as people think, because to get them as a starter you've got to generally pitch well and eat up innings. But they are dependent a lot on your teammates. Mussina pitched 3563 innings with a 23% better than average ERA (123 ERA+). That is excellent pitching over a long period of time. He's a HOFer. He's not in the bottom third of starters in the Hall, IMO.
Martinez was held back by being a DH. I don't see how a specialist like Mariano can be voted in and not a specialist like Martinez. After Baines got in (a travesty, btw-He is the first Hall of Famer without even one 5 WAR season and he doesn't even have a 4 WAR season), how could you keep Martinez out?
If I could have any of them at the start of their career for their whole career, I'd want them in this order
1. Halladay
2. Mussina
3. Martinez
4. Rivera
Rivera was the best ever closer, but I'll take 210 IP of great pitching over 70 IP of spectacular pitching.
I'd have voted for those four, plus Schilling, Walker, McGriff, Clemens and Bonds.
I'm starting to come around on the steroids guys, except for those who tested positive after testing was in place. While the guys who took them were cheating, I think a huge percentage of players were taking them, and they were implicitly condoned by MLB. The whole steroids thing is interesting. In the 60s and 70s pretty much all players took greenies (amphetamines). In Bouton’s book Ball Four, if I remember correctly, he said there were teams that just had them out in a bowl like m & m’s. To me, taking steroids is no different ethically than that. The problem with steroids is that they worked too well, and the best players using them basically broke the game. If they only gave you a performance/energy bump like greenies did they’d probably all still be taking them today.
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Mussina, I struggle with this. What did he average, 11 wins a year? Was he ever the best pitcher in baseball in any given year.
Wins is a pretty awful metric to judge a pitcher by. I would concur though that him being a Hall of Famer is a bit surprising. I saw someone say he’d be a starter in the Hall of Very Good. I agree with that. He was very good no doubt, but not sure he was HOF good.
Almost 16 a year when looking at full MLB seasons. 7 time Gold Glover. Pitched his entire career in a stacked AL East. Top 5 in the Cy Young 8 diff times and those years they were mostly won by Clemens or Pedro Martinez who are legends.
Ive got no love for Yankees, but in his prime he was a BEAST and he was a top 10 pitcher for a decade in a time where Pedro, Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, and Randy Johnson were all clogging awards lists.
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Almost 16 a year when looking at full MLB seasons. 7 time Gold Glover. Pitched his entire career in a stacked AL East. Top 5 in the Cy Young 8 diff times and those years they were mostly won by Clemens or Pedro Martinez who are legends.
Ive got no love for Yankees, but in his prime he was a BEAST and he was a top 10 pitcher for a decade in a time where Pedro, Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, and Randy Johnson were all clogging awards lists.
He deserved this.
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He deserved this.
Completely. He may not have ever been the best pitcher in his league (Pedro, Clemens) but he was damn good for a really long time. He was probably top 5 for a decade. He had 117 more W's than losses in a time where they mattered. He averaged 6 2/3 IP per start for 18 years. No one may ever reach his win total. He was 6th or better in Cy Young voting 9 times. That's right Ed Rooney, 9 times.
Completely deserved.
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Anyone else think it's a joke that Mariano is the 1st guy elected unanimously to the HOF?
Ruth, Gehrig, Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Williams, Musial, Hornsby, Honus Wagner and a dozen others weren't good enough for that honor but Mariano is?
Embarrassing.
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Anyone else think it's a joke that Mariano is the 1st guy elected unanimously to the HOF?
Ruth, Gehrig, Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Williams, Musial, Hornsby, Honus Wagner and a dozen others weren't good enough for that honor but Mariano is?
Embarrassing.
Yes, I don't think he (because of his role) was even the most deserving guy on this ballot. If I could have him or Mussina (the guy who barely made after several years on the ballot) at the start of their career and keep them for their whole career, I'd take Mussina. But it was getting to be a big deal that there wasn't a unanimous guy. Maybe now the voters won't be so scrutinized and feel more free to vote for the guys that they want. I think Maddux would have been a good choice to be the first since it is only recently that people have been getting very close, but I think because there were so many deserving guys his year a couple guys gamed the ballot to vote for guys they figured needed the support.
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Anyone else think it's a joke that Mariano is the 1st guy elected unanimously to the HOF?
Ruth, Gehrig, Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Williams, Musial, Hornsby, Honus Wagner and a dozen others weren't good enough for that honor but Mariano is?
Embarrassing.
Completely. Not that Mariano didn't deserve it, he did. But the fact that he was the first shows a lot of arrogance, ignorance or just stupidity on the body of voters. Guys that didn't vote for Griffey Jr., or Maddux or Perdo, (those are just the most recent ones) should have their voting privileges revoked.
Hopefully this breaks down the mentality or whatever nonsense that caused this to happen in the past.
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Almost 16 a year when looking at full MLB seasons. 7 time Gold Glover. Pitched his entire career in a stacked AL East. Top 5 in the Cy Young 8 diff times and those years they were mostly won by Clemens or Pedro Martinez who are legends.
Ive got no love for Yankees, but in his prime he was a BEAST and he was a top 10 pitcher for a decade in a time where Pedro, Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, and Randy Johnson were all clogging awards lists.
Hall of the Very Good, but I get your argument. I think others over the years are as deserving if not more. Guys that played on crap teams, had no offensive support, etc. Some guys played in pitcher friendly parks, etc.
On Martinez, why is it that voters stick to their guns and then cave with sympathy at the end? It happens way too much. Either you have the numbers or you don't. What changed in the last 4 years to go from not even 30% to 75%? Did a trove of statistics get found in a precinct somewhere to add to his totals? No.
What changed?
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Completely. Not that Mariano didn't deserve it, he did. But the fact that he was the first shows a lot of arrogance, ignorance or just stupidity on the body of voters. Guys that didn't vote for Griffey Jr., or Maddux or Perdo, (those are just the most recent ones) should have their voting privileges revoked.
Hopefully this breaks down the mentality or whatever nonsense that caused this to happen in the past.
Careful, there is a voter in our midst
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Hall of the Very Good, but I get your argument. I think others over the years are as deserving if not more. Guys that played on crap teams, had no offensive support, etc. Some guys played in pitcher friendly parks, etc.
On Martinez, why is it that voters stick to their guns and then cave with sympathy at the end? It happens way too much. Either you have the numbers or you don't. What changed in the last 4 years to go from not even 30% to 75%? Did a trove of statistics get found in a precinct somewhere to add to his totals? No.
What changed?
The MLB HOF is the most exclusive of all of them, with less than 1% of players being enshrined, and it has actually gotten more difficult through the years to get in. I think there are more players that should be getting in. Mussina was one of the very best pitchers of his era. He isn't Freddy Garcia, AJ Burnett or Josh Beckett.
Pitching in the era he did, in the league he did, in the parks he did, he is very deserving, at least in my opinion.
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The MLB HOF is the most exclusive of all of them, with less than 1% of players being enshrined, and it has actually gotten more difficult through the years to get in. I think there are more players that should be getting in. Mussina was one of the very best pitchers of his era. He isn't Freddy Garcia, AJ Burnett or Josh Beckett.
Pitching in the era he did, in the league he did, in the parks he did, he is very deserving, at least in my opinion.
Fair points. He was very good, I just had him a tick below, but definitely get it.
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Careful, there is a voter in our midst
No offense intended, unless he didn't vote for Griffey or Maddux.
I would guess he thinks there are guys that should have gotten 100% before. But its only a guess.
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Joc Pederson to the Sox rumblings starting up.
Lots of smoke. Not sure this is a move that makes any sense on its own.
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I know WAR isn't the greatest stat, but Mussina is #23 on the career WAR for pitchers. The only person ahead of him who isn't in the HOF is Clemens. Pitchers like Tom Glavine, Bob Gibson and Fergie Jenkins (and many others) are behind him.
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Mussina yes
Rivera yes yes yes
Halladay yes (would he have made it on this ballot if he hadn't tragically passed?)
Martinez no (in the DH HOF yes, not in the baseball hall of fame)
Remaining Snubs
Schilling. If you believe in Wins Above Replacement, he gets in. Enough voters dislike his politics, that hurts him
Larry Walker. Playing in Coors Field hurts him with voters. 3 batting titles, 7 gold gloves, MVP
Sheffield? Whittaker? Rolen?
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The DH is a legitimate position in baseball and as such Martinez deserves to be in.
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The DH is a legitimate position in baseball and as such Martinez deserves to be in.
As a DH, Martinez can get 600 plate appearances a year. Rivera faces half that many batters in a normal year. Rivera sure isn't helping the offense. Martinez is moving the dial on your won-lost record more than Mariano Rivera is. I do not see the logic where you can take a relief pitcher but not a DH. (And Edgar OWNED Mariano - 11 for 19 w/3 2B and 2 HR).
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Yes. And relievers have been elected to the Hall since Hoyt Wilhelm in the mid-80s. Now it's not even a question.
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Mussina yes
Rivera yes yes yes
Halladay yes (would he have made it on this ballot if he hadn't tragically passed?)
Martinez no (in the DH HOF yes, not in the baseball hall of fame)
Remaining Snubs
Schilling. If you believe in Wins Above Replacement, he gets in. Enough voters dislike his politics, that hurts him
Larry Walker. Playing in Coors Field hurts him with voters. 3 batting titles, 7 gold gloves, MVP
Sheffield? Whittaker? Rolen?
I think Walker and Helton should both get in.
.278/.370/.495 -- .865 OPS. That is Larry Walker's slash line -- on the road.
Ryne Sandberg's career OPS is .795. Jim Rice's was .854. Andre Dawson's was .806. Tony Gwynn's is .847. Paul Molitor's was .817.
I know these aren't perfect comparisons. And I realize it is just one category I am using (for simplicity), but I think it shows he was a great hitter. And he wasn't just a hitter. He won 7 Gold Gloves.
Yeah, he played in Denver. But that shouldn't disqualify him from the Hall of Fame. His home numbers are bonkers. His overall numbers are worthy. His road numbers are better than overall numbers for many guys already in the Hall. Every guy has a drop off on the road. Walker would hit no matter where he would have played. He hit with Montreal, he hit with St. Louis.
His OPS+ (which is normalized for ball park) is 141, basically saying he was 41 % better than an average player.
Helton has a similar case with a slash line of .287/.386/.469 (.855 OPS) on the road.
In 600 ABs, he would have averaged 22 HRS on the road. He would have averaged 88 BB per 650 PA on the road. 41 doubles per 600 ABs on the road.
Did he benefit from Coors. Sure. But he hit like a monster on the road.
This is just their road numbers. Their home numbers can't just be ignored either. Just about every guy hits better at home than on the road. But their road numbers are ridiculous. Also something that should be factored in is them playing at altitude. The strain and wear due to that should be considered as well. But even if you don't consider that, their numbers, even just on the road, are better than many guys in the HOF.
Are the numbers of guys that play in Camden discounted? Arizona? New Yankee stadium?
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No offense intended, unless he didn't vote for Griffey or Maddux.
I would guess he thinks there are guys that should have gotten 100% before. But its only a guess.
MU 82 used to be a voter - not any longer. That’s why you’ll see new address questions to him occasionally.
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MU 82 used to be a voter - not any longer. That’s why you’ll see new address questions to him occasionally.
Yeah I was aware, and I didn't mean to impugn the honor of 82. There does seem to be a swath of HOF voters that don't take their votes seriously. They shouldn't get the right to vote. From our conversations, 82 doesn't seem to be that type.
I just don't see what sense there could ever be in not voting for certain guys.
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MLB and the Cubs got a problem on their hands. Joe doesn’t run the day to day operations, but that’s his money his kids used to buy the team.
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MLB and the Cubs got a problem on their hands. Joe doesn’t run the day to day operations, but that’s his money his kids used to buy the team.
Wondering what you are referring to. Maybe Joe saying he is like a slave because he has to pay taxes on his billions?
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Wondering what you are referring to. Maybe Joe saying he is like a slave because he has to pay taxes on his billions?
Some of Joe's emails published - racist jokes, anti Muslim talk, etc.
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MU 82 used to be a voter - not any longer. That’s why you’ll see new address questions to him occasionally.
I am still a voter, and voted this year.
They are slowly weeding out us oldsters. Maybe this will turn out to have been my last year to vote, maybe not.
I do look at voting for the Hall as a privilege, and I take my responsibility seriously.
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I am still a voter, and voted this year.
They are slowly weeding out us oldsters. Maybe this will turn out to have been my last year to vote, maybe not.
I do look at voting for the Hall as a privilege, and I take my responsibility seriously.
Glad you are still active - for some reason I thought when you retired that you were no longer involved.
The Hall needs conscientious voters like you making these decisions.
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Some of Joe's emails published - racist jokes, anti Muslim talk, etc.
Thanks, Lenny.
No surprise really. That whole family is just rich, trailer trash.
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Been quite the offseason for them.
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Will the Cubbie fans come out with pitchforks like they did for 7 year old teenager Tweets?
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Will the Cubbie fans come out with pitchforks like they did for 7 year old teenager Tweets?
If they support wife beaters, there's no reason to think they won't support this vile, racist creep. Poor guy. Lamenting that he can't use the 'n' word and blaming it on political correctness.
Obviously, I don't think all Cubs fans are like this. Fans of any other team would probably react much the same, sad to say.
I guess my point is that sports should not be a reason to abandon basic human decency.
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As a lifelong White Sox guy, I have a natural aversion to all things Cub.
But I shudder to think that I'm somehow going to be held responsible for every dumb thing that comes out of my elderly father's mouth.
There are plenty of legitimate reasons to dislike or criticize Cubs' ownership. Something their father said in an email isn't one of them.
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If they support wife beaters, there's no reason to think they won't support this vile, racist creep. Poor guy. Lamenting that he can't use the 'n' word and blaming it on political correctness.
Obviously, I don't think all Cubs fans are like this. Fans of any other team would probably react much the same, sad to say.
I guess my point is that sports should not be a reason to abandon basic human decency.
Fans of all teams find it hard to separate the personal abhorrent behavior from great success and joy on the field for players in all sports. However, a rich old guy who just owns your team, and especially this one who isn't even active in your team? I see ZERO reason why Cubs fans would support Old Man Ricketts. Even if this was Tom Ricketts, I wouldn't necessarily think so.
Same way if Attanasio said something anti-Semitic or racist about LA, I dont think people who applauded Hader would automatically jump to his defense.
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Fans of all teams find it hard to separate the personal abhorrent behavior from great success and joy on the field for players in all sports. However, a rich old guy who just owns your team, and especially this one who isn't even active in your team? I see ZERO reason why Cubs fans would support Old Man Ricketts. Even if this was Tom Ricketts, I wouldn't necessarily think so.
Same way if Attanasio said something anti-Semitic or racist about LA, I dont think people who applauded Hader would automatically jump to his defense.
Well done, Wags. :)
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MLB and the Cubs got a problem on their hands. Joe doesn’t run the day to day operations, but that’s his money his kids used to buy the team.
This story will be forgotten by Sunday
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MLB looking at rule changes:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/02/06/mlb-considering-drastic-rule-changes-that-could-speed-up-games-create-universal-dh/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.364a68439fe5
Universal DH. Expand rosters to 26 players. Pitchers must pitch to at least three batters unless injured or end of an inning. Have one trading deadline.
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MLB looking at rule changes:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/02/06/mlb-considering-drastic-rule-changes-that-could-speed-up-games-create-universal-dh/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.364a68439fe5
Universal DH. Expand rosters to 26 players. Pitchers must pitch to at least three batters unless injured or end of an inning. Have one trading deadline.
I like all of the ones you listed.
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MLB looking at rule changes:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/02/06/mlb-considering-drastic-rule-changes-that-could-speed-up-games-create-universal-dh/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.364a68439fe5
Universal DH. Expand rosters to 26 players. Pitchers must pitch to at least three batters unless injured or end of an inning. Have one trading deadline.
This is a good list. I didn't like the expansion of the roster to 26, but as long as it comes with a limit of 12 pitchers/team, it is fine, especially as an incentive to the players union to accept other changes.
Not sure I like tweaking draft system. Small market teams need all the help they can get.
I think the big rift coming between players and management is going to be over salaries, as usual. Basically, players have been willing to accept being tethered to teams early in their career because of the big payday that awaits when they hit free agency. Now that the teams have wised up and are less willing to pay for past performance and base contracts on what they can expect using all the knowledge they have, free agents are getting less money. MLB is going to have to do something about that, and it has to revolve around paying the younger players more without shortening the tethered time, or the small market teams will never be able to compete. Not going to be easy, glad I don't have to figure it out. I think the first thing they have to do is kill that loophole where you wait to bring a guy up until May so you get an extra year under control.
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Ricketts now "apologizing."
But because it's impossible to sell an apology of, "I'm a racist, and sorry if you don't like that," it's not worth even considering the hollow words somebody wrote for him.
I tend to agree with Smuggles, though, that few will care about this long-term. Fans cheer the uniform, always have, always will.
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MLB looking at rule changes:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/02/06/mlb-considering-drastic-rule-changes-that-could-speed-up-games-create-universal-dh/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.364a68439fe5
Universal DH. Expand rosters to 26 players. Pitchers must pitch to at least three batters unless injured or end of an inning. Have one trading deadline.
I heard the players union wants the NL DH to start this year already after rosters are basically set. I can't see that happening.
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This is a good list. I didn't like the expansion of the roster to 26, but as long as it comes with a limit of 12 pitchers/team, it is fine, especially as an incentive to the players union to accept other changes.
Not sure I like tweaking draft system. Small market teams need all the help they can get.
I think the big rift coming between players and management is going to be over salaries, as usual. Basically, players have been willing to accept being tethered to teams early in their career because of the big payday that awaits when they hit free agency. Now that the teams have wised up and are less willing to pay for past performance and base contracts on what they can expect using all the knowledge they have, free agents are getting less money. MLB is going to have to do something about that, and it has to revolve around paying the younger players more without shortening the tethered time, or the small market teams will never be able to compete. Not going to be easy, glad I don't have to figure it out. I think the first thing they have to do is kill that loophole where you wait to bring a guy up until May so you get an extra year under control.
Could they accomplish this by shortening the time to arbitration? Or maybe introduce a restricted free agency where the current team has the opportunity to match a qualifying offer?
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I heard the players union wants the NL DH to start this year already after rosters are basically set. I can't see that happening.
And yet 4 of the top 5 free agents are still on the market. And many others.
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I, for one, am excited for the work stoppage in 2020 or 2021. Players need to rebalance the ledger
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Could they accomplish this by shortening the time to arbitration? Or maybe introduce a restricted free agency where the current team has the opportunity to match a qualifying offer?
I think they could if they were willing.
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I, for one, am excited for the work stoppage in 2020 or 2021. Players need to rebalance the ledger
This seems stupid to me. The last strike cost a World Series, took years to recover and at least somewhat led to the steroid era. But maybe that is because I am a fan of the game. I hope the work stoppage can be avoided because it can really hurt the game.
Tony Clark and Co. have done a terrible job on the behalf of the union. They have been short sighted and ignorant. Fighting for things like chefs in the clubhouse while the owners have been able to set up the luxury tax like a salary cap. The owners used a international draft as huge leverage (why should the players care???) to get what they want. The MLBPA has only themselves and their leadership to blame for their situation. Salaries haven't been their focus in the last 2 CBAs. They are paying for that now -- at least in perception.
A lot still depends on Harper and Machado. If they sign deals with an AAV in the neighborhood of 30, that seems to be exactly what was expected. Almost all of the other players on the market had their warts. Grandal is a career .240 hitter. Pollock can't stay healthy. Brantley is a great hitter, but has limited power and health concerns. Even with that, Grandal and Brantley got high AAV deals.
There will likely still be 4-5 guys that sign deals with an AAV of at least 23 million this year. It isn't easy to see the guys that have been drastically underpaid this offseason (Pollock, Bour -- I don't know who else). People pointed to Dozier at the time of his signing, but 9M seems pretty strong for a guy that hit .215 last season.
Free agency is riskier it seems, but players making bad decisions has made it look worse. Guys like Moustakas last year and Grandal this year overplayed their hands (both settled for 1 year deals while reportedly turning down deals in the neighborhood of 4/60) and had their primary suitors move onto other options, leaving them with few options.
I think the luxury tax will have to be strongly revisited. It is being used like a hard cap for pretty much every team but the Yankees. I think they have paid more than 90% of the money that has been allocated for the luxury tax, and it looks like Boston will be the only team over this season. The MLBPA has really underestimated the impact of the luxury tax. Is a tax if your payroll is too low the answer?
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This seems stupid to me. The last strike cost a World Series, took years to recover and at least somewhat led to the steroid era. But maybe that is because I am a fan of the game. I hope the work stoppage can be avoided because it can really hurt the game.
Tony Clark and Co. have done a terrible job on the behalf of the union. They have been short sighted and ignorant. Fighting for things like chefs in the clubhouse while the owners have been able to set up the luxury tax like a salary cap. The owners used a international draft as huge leverage (why should the players care???) to get what they want. The MLBPA has only themselves and their leadership to blame for their situation. Salaries haven't been their focus in the last 2 CBAs. They are paying for that now -- at least in perception.
A lot still depends on Harper and Machado. If they sign deals with an AAV in the neighborhood of 30, that seems to be exactly what was expected. Almost all of the other players on the market had their warts. Grandal is a career .240 hitter. Pollock can't stay healthy. Brantley is a great hitter, but has limited power and health concerns. Even with that, Grandal and Brantley got high AAV deals.
There will likely still be 4-5 guys that sign deals with an AAV of at least 23 million this year. It isn't easy to see the guys that have been drastically underpaid this offseason (Pollock, Bour -- I don't know who else). People pointed to Dozier at the time of his signing, but 9M seems pretty strong for a guy that hit .215 last season.
Free agency is riskier it seems, but players making bad decisions has made it look worse. Guys like Moustakas last year and Grandal this year overplayed their hands (both settled for 1 year deals while reportedly turning down deals in the neighborhood of 4/60) and had their primary suitors move onto other options, leaving them with few options.
I think the luxury tax will have to be strongly revisited. It is being used like a hard cap for pretty much every team but the Yankees. I think they have paid more than 90% of the money that has been allocated for the luxury tax, and it looks like Boston will be the only team over this season. The MLBPA has really underestimated the impact of the luxury tax. Is a tax if your payroll is too low the answer?
Average is a horrible statistical measure. Grandal lead the league in OBP (.349) for Catchers last year and #2 in WAR. His lifetime OBP is .341 because he walks so much.
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Average is a horrible statistical measure. Grandal lead the league in OBP (.349) for Catchers last year and #2 in WAR. His lifetime OBP is .341 because he walks so much.
...Nevermind that BA is the largest component of OBP... anyways...
You giving Johan Carmargo a 20 million per year deal? He basically had the same OBP and SLG.
Grandal was 52nd in OBP last season. Hardly elite. He is in the same ballpark as Matt Kemp and Jean Segura, guys not reknowned for their OBP skills. Walks only help so much if you still have a poor BA. I spent plenty of time studying Adam Dunn.
I know Grandal is a C having a C that is anything but a blackhole is valuable. My point was he is not without his warts. How about his complete mental breakdown in the postseason? Yeah he is a good framer (um hooray?) but he quite realistically couldn't catch in the playoffs. Not to mention he was 4/34 -- oh wait average doesn't count. He also had 5 BB. Solid .231 OBP. And not just this year either. Career in the postseason he is has a .107/.264/.200 slash line for an impressively bad OPS of .464.
He gave teams reasons not to go above and beyond to want his services.
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MLB also needs a salary floor.
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Deferred salary is a problem, too. This year's Tiger Roster is going to be another rebuild. However, their payroll is still going to be skewed as they are still paying Prince Fielder and Justin Verlander.
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I kinda wish MLB would stop trying to relate to the casual fans--who still won't like baseball that much anyway-- at the expense of the fans who really love the sport.
You can't have a reliever come in for one batter?
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I kinda wish MLB would stop trying to relate to the casual fans--who still won't like baseball that much anyway-- at the expense of the fans who really love the sport.
You can't have a reliever come in for one batter?
Completely with you on this.
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I kinda wish MLB would stop trying to relate to the casual fans--who still won't like baseball that much anyway-- at the expense of the fans who really love the sport.
You can't have a reliever come in for one batter?
I love baseball, but September can be almost unwatchable. I was at a game last season where the manager made 8 pitching changes in a game where his team was losing by 5 runs. Probably added 45 minutes to an hour to the gametime, at least. Even diehards don’t enjoy sitting through that.
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I love baseball, but September can be almost unwatchable. I was at a game last season where the manager made 8 pitching changes in a game where his team was losing by 5 runs. Probably added 45 minutes to an hour to the gametime, at least. Even diehards don’t enjoy sitting through that.
I’m an old geezer but I remember when games were done in 2 hours to 2.5 hours. With TV and hundreds of pitching changes, those days are quaint.
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MLB also needs a salary floor.
Yep
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Deferred salary is a problem, too. This year's Tiger Roster is going to be another rebuild. However, their payroll is still going to be skewed as they are still paying Prince Fielder and Justin Verlander.
Bobby bonilla! Still getting paid by the Mets.
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Completely with you on this.
I don't. I figured they were going to go to 2 batters, but 3 is better. Baseball got along fine for 100 years without one batter specialists. Anything that lowers mid-inning pitching changes is OK in my book. May put a little more offense in the game, too.
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Here's ALL of the rules that have been discussed:
- A three-batter minimum for pitchers- I don't like this, but I understand why. There have to be exceptions for guys who come out and get shelled (maybe if you give up 2+ runs) and for end-of-inning situations (come in and get the third out but don't come back for the next inning).
A universal designated hitter- It was going to happen eventually. Would rather see it wait a year.
A single trade deadline before the All-Star break- I'm ok with one trade deadline, and I'm ok with it being earlier, but before the All-Star break is too early. NBA's is before the All-Star break, but NBA All-Star game is also 2/3 way into the season. Go back to July 31 hard deadline.
A 20-second pitch clock- I'm 100% behind this one. My wife wouldn't let us go to Brewer games when Gallardo pitched because he was so slooooowwww.
The expansion of rosters to 26 men, with a 12-pitcher maximum.- I don't like the 12 pitcher maximum, especially if theres a DH. You'd be talking about 14 hitters for 9 lineup spots, but there's not much pinch-hitting in AL ball because there's no pitcher spot to compensate for. 13/13 is a decent compromise.
Draft advantages for winning teams and penalties for losing teams. Only if the penalty is for multiple years of intentional losing in a row (but how would you measure it).
A study to lower the mound.- A study, ok fine. Actually doing it? It would be a big change that would tremendously boost offense, and I'm not sure I want that.
A rule that would allow two-sport amateurs to sign major league contracts- The Kyler Murray rule....gotta keep up with NFL
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I am still a voter, and voted this year.
They are slowly weeding out us oldsters. Maybe this will turn out to have been my last year to vote, maybe not.
I do look at voting for the Hall as a privilege, and I take my responsibility seriously.
82, maybe you can't answer this out of a sense of integrity to not talk about potential players, but what do you think of CC Sabathia's chances at the Hall? I read an article this morning that said he's probably going to be the 17th player to get 3000 strikeouts, plus he will likely reach 250 wins and has a 3.70 career ERA. As a Brewer fan, I remember his two months in Milwaukee fondly.
I just don't see Sabathia talked about much when people write articles about active potential HoFers.
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And yet 4 of the top 5 free agents are still on the market. And many others.
Sure, 15 teams incorporating their 1st DH in the next month or so sounds doable, why wait another year?
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82, maybe you can't answer this out of a sense of integrity to not talk about potential players, but what do you think of CC Sabathia's chances at the Hall? I read an article this morning that said he's probably going to be the 17th player to get 3000 strikeouts, plus he will likely reach 250 wins and has a 3.70 career ERA. As a Brewer fan, I remember his two months in Milwaukee fondly.
I just don't see Sabathia talked about much when people write articles about active potential HoFers.
I haven't done a deep dive into him, but a quick glance makes me think he's a borderline case. His raw stats (wins, Ks, ERA) put him in a range of Mussina, who just got in, and Morris, who got in last year via the veterans panel. They also were borderline guys. He's certainly not an elite guy that makes me say, "Oh yeah, he's in." Nor is he one I think will be kicked to the curb.
CC had a very nice 12-year run from 2001 to 2012, with a 191-102 record (16-8 average yearly record), 3.50 ERA and 2214 Ks. He was an innings-eater (at least by modern standards), won a CY and finished in the top 5 of CY voting 4 other times. The CY finishes definitely will impress many voters, and deservedly so, because they signal that he was a dominant player, relative to his peers, for a long stretch. He was the stud on some decent (and less-decent) Cleveland teams and was the ace of the Yankees' last WS winner ('09).
All that works for him, as does the fact that he has spent the majority of his career in New York. Working against him: Unlike Mussina, he has not finished his career strong, and has been mediocre-to-bad, hurt or both for much of the last 5 years. In general, voters don't favor guys who just seem to be hanging on.
Given the trends, and his impressive CY finishes, I'd give him a better than 50/50 chance of making it eventually. I'm guessing I'll no longer have a vote when he becomes eligible. I voted for Mussina and Morris, and I also have voted for Schilling, who probably will make it eventually.
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Deferred salary is a problem, too. This year's Tiger Roster is going to be another rebuild. However, their payroll is still going to be skewed as they are still paying Prince Fielder and Justin Verlander.
Sorry folks, I'm a capitalist and I do not understand why the players should agree to something that would save the owners from their own stupidity at the expense of the players.
Bobby Bonilla was a boomer. The Mets have no more business paying him than my first employer does me, now. But yet they agreed to something really stupid because, well, they could.
The Albert Pujols contract generally falls into the same category. While should the players agree to something that would limit Mr. Pujols' earning power into his retirement if Artie wants to throw around a few hundred million in chump change? As much as I hated to see Mr. Pujols leave St. Louis, give him credit for squeezing ole Artie as hard as he could.
What we're seeing with the current wave of free agency is the first burst of sanity in baseball in years. Sabermetrics and other data analytic tools have shown that hitting and power skills decline after age 32, which is a big reason why Mr. Harper et al are not getting the length of contracts from free agency they think they deserve. That's a function of information and the market, not artificial limitations.
Ultimately, I recognize that if you are a fan of the Miami Marlins or the Kansas City Royals, big spenders and long contracts probably make your chances of seeing another world championship, or consistent excellence, modest at best. But the players have a right to make a living and if you're a Royal or a Marlin (or an A, Mariner, Twin, Tiger and a host of other teams) fan, you're going to have to spend your money far more wisely than ole Artie, the Steinbrenners, Ricketts, whoever owns the Dodgers this week (Magic, I know) etc.
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I wonder if Washington's $300M offer for Harper is still on the table. It seems highly, highly unlikely that he will get close to that from anybody else.
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Bobby bonilla! Still getting paid by the Mets.
Brewers are still paying Aramis Ramírez - though not as bad Bobby - still made me double take when I saw that.
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Brewers are still paying Aramis Ramírez - though not as bad Bobby - still made me double take when I saw that.
https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/aramis-ramirez-159/
Are you sure? It looks like a settlement was made in 2015.
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https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/aramis-ramirez-159/
Are you sure? It looks like a settlement was made in 2015.
Still on the books as 2019 deferred salary here:
https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/milwaukee-brewers/payroll/ (https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/milwaukee-brewers/payroll/)
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Sure, 15 teams incorporating their 1st DH in the next month or so sounds doable, why wait another year?
Yeah, that was the point I was trying to make. ::)
And Realmuto to the Phillies seems like it is done.
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Still on the books as 2019 deferred salary here:
https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/milwaukee-brewers/payroll/ (https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/milwaukee-brewers/payroll/)
thanks
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Yeah, that was the point I was trying to make. ::)
And Realmuto to the Phillies seems like it is done.
A buddy of mine texted to say this is a the all-in move the Phillies are making to sway Bryce Harper to join.
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A universal designated hitter- It was going to happen eventually. Would rather see it wait a year.
From the Detroit Free Press in 1973:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyvU_roWwAASi5b.jpg:large)
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From the Detroit Free Press in 1973:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyvU_roWwAASi5b.jpg:large)
That comic is pretty funny to look at because nowadays the complaint I hear isn't about hitters not having to field anymore, it's about pitchers not having to hit. I've seen and heard a lot of debate about the DH in the last 24 hours and not a single person has said "wow those lazy DHs not having to play the field!"
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Frank Robinson passes. Truly a legend of the game. One of the best ever.
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Frank Robinson passes. Truly a legend of the game. One of the best ever.
The bane of my existence as a young Red Sox fan watching those powerhouse Orioles teams of the late 60's early 70's.
Great, great player. Didn't quite get his due because he played at the same time as Willie Mays and particularly Hank Aaron and was just a tick less than those guys, but he could really play.
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Players will no longer be on the DL; they'll be on the "Injured List." I actually think that's kinda nice.
https://sports.yahoo.com/mlb-renaming-disabled-list-injured-212923283.html (https://sports.yahoo.com/mlb-renaming-disabled-list-injured-212923283.html)
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in 1962, Frank Robinson hit 51 doubles to lead the league, along with 39 home runs, 136 RBI, he hit .342/.421/.624 for an OPS of 1.045. He led the league in OBP and SLG, and of course OPS. He had 76 BB to 62 K. He had 208 hits, and 11 HBP (he reached base 295 times!).
This was not either of his MVP seasons. Just a monster hitter. 4th all time in home runs at the time of his retirement. He had a .537 SLG career, in over 10,000 ABs. Just amazing.
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Frank Robinson won the MVP in both leagues. He also has a statue at 3 ballparks: Cincinnati, Baltimore, and Cleveland.
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Frank Robinson passes. Truly a legend of the game. One of the best ever.
High school basketball teammate of Bill Russell’s.
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Moose back to Milwaukee on a one year deal. Love it.
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Moose back to Milwaukee on a one year deal. Love it.
$9M. He turned down a $15M mutual option after the end of 2018. I'm assuming that the Brewers wouldn't have picked up that option either. Smart move by the team.
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Moose back to Milwaukee on a one year deal. Love it.
Great move.
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Padres could land either Machado or Harper.
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Padres could land either Machado or Harper.
Breaking news!
They could also land neither.
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Padres could land either Machado or Harper.
Phillies for Harper....maybe Pads for Machado, but I will believe when I see it.
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CC is going to try Moose at second during spring training. I see the logic - Shaw and Arcia are both plus defenders so if they can shrink Moose’s range, they might be able to hide him. It could end up being be Crew’s best overall lineup but probably only against righty heavy lineups - Moose and Aguilar playing the right side will get hammered by lefties.
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Bochy to hang them up after the season. Certain HOFer.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/26025976/giants-manager-bruce-bochy-retire-2019-season%3fplatform=amp
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CC is going to try Moose at second during spring training. I see the logic - Shaw and Arcia are both plus defenders so if they can shrink Moose’s range, they might be able to hide him. It could end up being be Crew’s best overall lineup but probably only against righty heavy lineups - Moose and Aguilar playing the right side will get hammered by lefties.
Also keeps shaw at 3rd for when Hiura is called up.
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Also keeps shaw at 3rd for when Hiura is called up.
That's a good point. I wonder if part of the plan is for Moose to also see some time at 1B in a rough late season platoon with Aguilar once Hiura is up. Otherwise, comparing Moose's stats vs say, Josh Harrison, is interesting. Assuming Harrison will sign for like $4M, Stearns is paying about $6M to play Moose out of position on the promise of approximately 20 more bombs. Moose's familiarity with the clubhouse and lefthandedness would seem to play a role in justifying that outlay, but speaks to why I was so enamored with Asdrubal Cabrera (plays all over the infield, projects to about 20 bombs, and hits from both sides).
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Machado to the Padres. 10 years, $300 million.
As a Sox fan, I'm bummed he didn't land on the South Side.
Also as a Sox fan, I'm glad they didn't give him a 10-year deal.
Odds the Padres are looking to move his contract within three years?
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Machado to the Padres. 10 years, $300 million.
Interesting, talent continues to migrate to the NL.
Machado is young enough that you figure the Padres will get value for the front half of the contract. Back half depends on how healthy he stays (he won't pull any muscles trying to beat out a ground ball, that's for sure ;)) and where the average salary goes from here.
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Interesting, talent continues to migrate to the NL.
Technically he was already in the NL
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Frustrating day, as I had heard repeatedly they were all in and wouldn't be beat on cash (going back to early 2017). I know they thought they were really close in mid January. Of the players that are or may be available via free agency this offseason and next, I really believe Machado was the combo of player/age/position worth the coin.
They'll be out on Harper, and this will be a long year, that hopefully results in another top 5 pick. Have to hit on the third pick this year and see development from Moncada, Robert, Adolfo, Madrigal. Future is still bright, just have to wait another year.
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Frustrating day, as I had heard repeatedly they were all in and wouldn't be beat on cash (going back to early 2017). I know they thought they were really close in mid January. Of the players that are or may be available via free agency this offseason and next, I really believe Machado was the combo of player/age/position worth the coin.
Dish, do you think the Sox offer was fewer years but higher AAV? Kenny's comments are kind of confusing - says the Sox couldn't go to $300M, but also says that "there was potential for Machado to make more [in Chicago] than his deal with San Diego." Any idea what that means? Something like $35-40 per year over 5 years? His SD opt out is after 5.
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Padres could land either Machado or Harper.
Nice call
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Dish, do you think the Sox offer was fewer years but higher AAV? Kenny's comments are kind of confusing - says the Sox couldn't go to $300M, but also says that "there was potential for Machado to make more [in Chicago] than his deal with San Diego." Any idea what that means? Something like $35-40 per year over 5 years? His SD opt out is after 5.
Endorsements would be my initial guess.
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Dish, do you think the Sox offer was fewer years but higher AAV? Kenny's comments are kind of confusing - says the Sox couldn't go to $300M, but also says that "there was potential for Machado to make more [in Chicago] than his deal with San Diego." Any idea what that means? Something like $35-40 per year over 5 years? His SD opt out is after 5.
Pure guess, but I'm guessing Kenny's comments were dictated around lower jock tax rate. Manny's salary and signing bonus would be under Florida state income tax (0%), but his jock tax playing for the Sox versus the Padres would be far less.
Kenny's comments are all over the place today, he really should just shut up and let Hahn talk. Kenny's not making the Sox look good (and maybe they should be embarassed?).
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Kenny's comments are all over the place today, he really should just shut up and let Hahn talk. Kenny's not making the Sox look good (and maybe they should be embarassed?).
No idea whether the Sox should be embarrassed. If it came down to them deciding that 10/$300 million was too much, it's a reasonable take. A couple dozen other teams seem to agree.
But it's safe to say Kenny has rarely said anything helpful off-the-cuff and he should let Hahn do the talking.
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Nice call
Chicos Angels fan patting Chicos Cubs fan on the back. Nice.
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Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal
Source: #WhiteSox offer to Machado was 8/$250M (a higher AAV than he will receive from #Padres. Total value of deal - with incentives and vesting options - could have been “well north” of $300M.
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Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal
Source: #WhiteSox offer to Machado was 8/$250M (a higher AAV than he will receive from #Padres. Total value of deal - with incentives and vesting options - could have been “well north” of $300M.
My note on them being maybe embarrassed had to do with something odd seems to have happened in the last 24 hours that left the Sox looking like they didn't know what was going on. If they simply got outbid and the Padres were just closing the deal, that's one thing, but the info and reactions out there look like the Sox didn't get to go back to the table or something along those lines.
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Interesting, talent continues to migrate to the NL.
This is such a flip from a few years ago. Ten years back all of the talent was going to the AL. I think it’s in part due to the existence of the juggernauts in Boston, New York and Houston. Why spend money to bring in talent when toppling the big 3 is nearly impossible?
It’s the same reason why all of the talent went West in the NBA for the last ten years, since LeBron was dominating the conference. Now that LeBron is in the West and the Warriors are the dominant team, it looks like a lot of the talent is shifting back east.
Kudos to the White Sox for trying to get Machado. Just like all three NL divisions, the AL central is ripe for the taking as Cleveland tails off. Too bad it didn’t work out.
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This is such a flip from a few years ago. Ten years back all of the talent was going to the AL. I think it’s in part due to the existence of the juggernauts in Boston, New York and Houston. Why spend money to bring in talent when toppling the big 3 is nearly impossible?
It’s the same reason why all of the talent went West in the NBA for the last ten years, since LeBron was dominating the conference. Now that LeBron is in the West and the Warriors are the dominant team, it looks like a lot of the talent is shifting back east.
Kudos to the White Sox for trying to get Machado. Just like all three NL divisions, the AL central is ripe for the taking as Cleveland tails off. Too bad it didn’t work out.
I think the reason is pretty simple this time around.
The NL has only 2 teams that are tanking. Almost half the teams in the AL are trying to lose.
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Chicos Angels fan patting Chicos Cubs fan on the back. Nice.
was that really necessary? and many wonder where the back n forth comes from
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was that really necessary? and many wonder where the back n forth comes from
Chicos’s “look at me!” Post was treated accordingly. I gave him the attention he was looking for.
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Chicos Angels fan patting Chicos Cubs fan on the back. Nice.
Sigh. Whatever.
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My note on them being maybe embarrassed had to do with something odd seems to have happened in the last 24 hours that left the Sox looking like they didn't know what was going on. If they simply got outbid and the Padres were just closing the deal, that's one thing, but the info and reactions out there look like the Sox didn't get to go back to the table or something along those lines.
Now all we have to show for the pursuit of Manny is 13 million spent on 2 guys we didn't need. Kenny saying they were never going to 300 million was tantamount (IMO) to admitting they were never in on Harper and only getting Machado if a JD Martinez situation developed. This was a perfect storm scenario for the Sox to prove they were serious about their rebuild. The White Sox should be embarrassed. #Epic fail.
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Now all we have to show for the pursuit of Manny is 13 million spent on 2 guys we didn't need. Kenny saying they were never going to 300 million was tantamount (IMO) to admitting they were never in on Harper and only getting Machado if a JD Martinez situation developed. This was a perfect storm scenario for the Sox to prove they were serious about their rebuild. The White Sox should be embarrassed. #Epic fail.
I actually think the Jay signing makes some sense regardless, but, yeah, Alonso looks not so hot now. Could be a decent trade piece come July if he reverts to form.
So where to the Sox go from here? I don't think they'll take that $250+ million and spend it elsewhere this year, but there are still some valuable pieces out there to be had.
I'd really love to see them make a run at Keuchel. They need another starter, he's been through a rebuild so he can mentor the younger arms and he's still at least a mid-rotation guy who would continue to help when the team is ready to contend in a couple of seasons.
And now that I've said that, they'll go sign Gio Gonzalez.
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I forgot who I was listening to this afternoon, might have been Waddle, but what ticks me off the most as a Sox fan is this was the perfect storm for them to go big. They saved on payroll the last few years, their future payroll commitment is next to nothing, they have financial resources to go out and get a superstar, who at 26, plays a valuable position, while blueblood financial teams are sitting out the market. For 2 years internally they planned and marketed to go after him. The AL Central window has opened, he’d have been an anchor in their lineup as the kids came up. And at the end of the day, they lost, and it’s really hard to envision another opportunity for a player like this to hit the market with the bluebloods on the sidelines. They were going to have to get to a slightly uncomfortable salary number to get Machado, and all the time and effort they spent, they wouldn’t guarantee the number he wanted. Disappointing.
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This FO is ridiculous. The we tried BS is completely asinine.
I will enjoy watching Goldy on the Cards though. I will probably be watching a lot of Cards games...
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I forgot who I was listening to this afternoon, might have been Waddle, but what ticks me off the most as a Sox fan is this was the perfect storm for them to go big. They saved on payroll the last few years, their future payroll commitment is next to nothing, they have financial resources to go out and get a superstar, who at 26, plays a valuable position, while blueblood financial teams are sitting out the market. For 2 years internally they planned and marketed to go after him. The AL Central window has opened, he’d have been an anchor in their lineup as the kids came up. And at the end of the day, they lost, and it’s really hard to envision another opportunity for a player like this to hit the market with the bluebloods on the sidelines. They were going to have to get to a slightly uncomfortable salary number to get Machado, and all the time and effort they spent, they wouldn’t guarantee the number he wanted. Disappointing.
You're not the only person I've heard say that, which makes the fact that he signed at a completely predictable number, that the Sox wouldn't approach, well it makes me question the sanity of the FO. A perfect opportunity, and the did nothing with it. Last time they missed out on big FA targets (Cespedes/Gordon) it turned out to be a blessing, maybe this works out the same, but I doubt it.
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Saw 2 things on the tweeter today.
One was the Sox were willing to got to a potential of $350 mil with incentives for machado. That was why they were surprised, their total potential outlay was more than the Padres. (Think this was from an ESPN reporter. But honestly dont remeber.)
2nd, the only have around $15 mil in guaranteed salary for 2020.
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San Diego, CA or Chicago, IL. Tough choice.
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San Diego, CA or Chicago, IL. Tough choice.
By that logic, every free agent should sign with the Padres.
No big deal, all they need now is every prospect to pan out, and since they are great at scouting, drafting and development that should be a piece of cake...
Wait...what's that? They suck at those things. Huh.
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By that logic, every free agent should sign with the Padres.
If they were offered $50M more in guaranteed money to live in SD? Yup, probably.
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I will enjoy watching Goldy on the Cards though. I will probably be watching a lot of Cards games...
ME TOO!
Watch out Cub fans, the Cardinals are coming.... and the white stuff on the Cubby Bear's back window, it's bird crap from a very angry redbird!
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Feel for the WS fans.
Feel for Hahn. $300m was likely always the number, you signed his guys and probably had a Jordan contact ready to go as well. Literally the cornerstone to the AL Central crown and Jerry pulled the reigns back?
Also, why the hell was Kenny out talking at all? There should've been one response from Rick and that's it. Kenny needs to get the unnatural carnal knowledge out faster than GarPax. Hahn is the savant in a class of dunces on the south side.
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By that logic, every free agent should sign with the Padres.
Yeah - Chicago might be behind San Diego, San Francisco, L.A, Seattle, Toronto and NYC but...
This is really bad news for Milwaukee, Kansas City, St Louis, Dallas, Houston, Cincinnati, Tampa, Miami, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, D.C., Minneapolis, Boston, Phoenix, Detroit, Atlanta, Baltimore, Denver and Oakland.
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Feel for the WS fans.
Feel for Hahn. $300m was likely always the number, you signed his guys and probably had a Jordan contact ready to go as well. Literally the cornerstone to the AL Central crown and Jerry pulled the reigns back?
Also, why the hell was Kenny out talking at all? There should've been one response from Rick and that's it. Kenny needs to get the unnatural carnal knowledge out faster than GarPax. Hahn is the savant in a class of dunces on the south side.
2005 was my fondest sport's memory after 1977. The one horrible side effect is that it meant a lifetime contract for KW. Many of the Scoopers who post on baseball would be better at his job than he is.
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Yeah - Chicago might be behind San Diego, San Francisco, L.A, Seattle, Toronto and NYC but...
This is really bad news for Milwaukee, Kansas City, St Louis, Dallas, Houston, Cincinnati, Tampa, Miami, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, D.C., Minneapolis, Boston, Phoenix, Detroit, Atlanta, Baltimore, Denver and Oakland.
Seattle and Toronto?
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2005 was my fondest sport's memory after 1977. The one horrible side effect is that it meant a lifetime contract for KW. Many of the Scoopers who post on baseball would be better at his job than he is.
Yeah, but no one on here can rock those transition lenses like KW
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Yeah, but no one on here can rock those transition lenses like KW
Fact.
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Seattle and Toronto?
Have you seen real estate prices in those cities? Somebody wants to live there. Not me, but somebody.
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San Diego, CA or Chicago, IL. Tough choice.
He's probably going to live in Miami during the offseason either way, so there goes San Diego's main advantage.
In terms exposure,, endorsement opportunities, not being in a baseball backwater, Chicago > San Diego
Don't get me wrong, San Diego is great, but there are plenty of better places to be a professional baseball player.
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If they were offered $50M more in guaranteed money to live in SD? Yup, probably.
OK, well that is different than saying "San Diego or Chicago... tough choice." isn't it?
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Feel for the WS fans.
Feel for Hahn. $300m was likely always the number, you signed his guys and probably had a Jordan contact ready to go as well. Literally the cornerstone to the AL Central crown and Jerry pulled the reigns back?
Also, why the hell was Kenny out talking at all? There should've been one response from Rick and that's it. Kenny needs to get the unnatural carnal knowledge out faster than GarPax. Hahn is the savant in a class of dunces on the south side.
Nah. He fits right in. He has made 2 good moves in like 10 years. The Q trade and the Eaton trade. Sale was so easy anyone could have gotten a good return.
His signings are basically all disasters. He gave away Tatis, who is more highly regarded than Eloy in most cases. He is every bit the disaster the other guys are. I wish I could have faith they would pivot this money to Harper and realize what it takes to get a top level player, but I don't.
Ugh. Really wish there were an MU game tonight.
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OK, well that is different than saying "San Diego or Chicago... tough choice." isn't it?
Well I mean even if everything is equal in terms of money it's not a hard choice at all either.
You responded with "Well then every free agent should sign in San Diego." Well, obviously that's pretty flawed given that there are 29 other baseball rosters that need to be filled, so...
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Well I mean even if everything is equal in terms of money it's not a hard choice at all either.
You responded with "Well then every free agent should sign in San Diego." Well, obviously that's pretty flawed given that there are 29 other baseball rosters that need to be filled, so...
Ok great point. You are right. Sorry I engaged with you.
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Nah. He fits right in. He has made 2 good moves in like 10 years. The Q trade and the Eaton trade. Sale was so easy anyone could have gotten a good return.
His signings are basically all disasters. He gave away Tatis, who is more highly regarded than Eloy in most cases. He is every bit the disaster the other guys are. I wish I could have faith they would pivot this money to Harper and realize what it takes to get a top level player, but I don't.
Ugh. Really wish there were an MU game tonight.
Given that Hahn has been GM for only five years, I'm not going to hold him responsible for 10 years of moves.
That said, you're being a bit harsh and forgetting some of the other good deals he's made:
- Hector Santiago and Brandon Jacobs for Adam Eaton
- Omar Narvaez in the Rule 5, then flipping him this year for Alex Colome
- Flipped Frazier and Robertson for Rutherford
- Picked up Palka off waivers
And this doesn't include some really astute drafting and international signings the past few years (Madrigal, Robert, Hansen, Gonzalez, Adolfo, Fry, Hamilton, Burger if he can stay healthy, etc.).
The Tatis deal obviously turned out badly, but in fairness, Tatis was a 17-year-old who'd never played in the States at the time. He was a throw-in in that deal. Erik Johnson was the main return San Diego wanted in that deal.
Hahn's definitely been a mixed bag, but I think the sting of the day's news is clouding your judgment here.
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Given that Hahn has been GM for only five years, I'm not going to hold him responsible for 10 years of moves.
That said, you're being a bit harsh and forgetting some of the other good deals he's made:
- Hector Santiago and Brandon Jacobs for Adam Eaton
- Omar Narvaez in the Rule 5, then flipping him this year for Alex Colome
- Flipped Frazier and Robertson for Rutherford
- Picked up Palka off waivers
And this doesn't include some really astute drafting and international signings the past few years (Madrigal, Robert, Hansen, Gonzalez, Adolfo, Fry, Hamilton, Burger if he can stay healthy, etc.).
The Tatis deal obviously turned out badly, but in fairness, Tatis was a 17-year-old who'd never played in the States at the time. He was a throw-in in that deal. Erik Johnson was the main return San Diego wanted in that deal.
Hahn's definitely been a mixed bag, but I think the sting of the day's news is clouding your judgment here.
Your number 1. definitely.
Number 2. Well, just happened, jury is still out there right?
Number 3. Jury still out right, he was good last year but a corner OF with limited power in A ball, is not quite a sure thing. 1 decent player, and a really solid reliever and a high risk/reward (Kahnle) reliever for 1 real prospect, isn't exactly a home run. I have high hopes for Rutherford, but can't count that as a win just yet.
I love Palka. I hate that he isn't going to DH because of Yonder Alonso. He is also likely a platoon DH. Who has had 1 year. A bit early to call it a rousing success.
The draft picks are hazy at best. Fulmer (teammates with some other 1st round pitcher, what is his name Buehler, Buehler) Collins (hmmm Whitley????), way to early to tell on the others, Madrigal looks like a nice player, and I have hopes for Burger, but he looks like a first round DH, so he'd better mash. And when we are touting guys like Hamilton and Fry (Hahn wasn't GM but anyways) it is hard to build your system on relievers. Most of their high end talent is because they had to sell high end MLB talent because they couldn't build a team. Robert and Madrigal are the exceptions.
Can't take credit for this, but here are all of Hahn's free agent signings:
2012-13
Dewayne Wise
Jeff Keppinger
Tony Pena
Matt Lindstrom
2013-14
Jose Abreu (skeptical if it counts)
Zack Putnam
Felipe Paulino
Ronald Belisario
Scott Downs
Dylan Axelrod
Brian Omogrosso
2014-15
Junior Guerra (let go for nothing later)
Zack Duke
Adam LaRoche
David Robertson
Melky Cabrera
Brad Penny
Emilio Bonifacio
Geovany Soto
Scott Carroll
Jesse Crain
Gordon Beckham
Nicky Delmonico
Matt Albers
2015-16
Matt Purke
Alex Avila
Dioner Navarro
Jacob Turner
Matt Albers
Mat Latos
Jimmy Rollins
Austin Jackson
Chris Volstad
2016-17
Derek Holland
Cody Asche
Everth Cabrera
Geovany Soto
Gregory Infante
Anthony Swarzak
Peter Bourjas
2017-18
Matt Skole
Welington Castillo
Miguel Gonzalez
Chris Volstad
Xavier Cedeno
Jeanmar Gomez
Bruce Rondon
Hector Santiago
2018-19
James McCann
Kelvin Herrerra
Jon Jay
That is some ugly stuff.
And even Adolfo, of whom I am a big fan, they scouted and decided to spe d big on him instead of Eloy and Gleybar. That looks like another scouting miss.
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Given that Hahn has been GM for only five years, I'm not going to hold him responsible for 10 years of moves.
That said, you're being a bit harsh and forgetting some of the other good deals he's made:
- Hector Santiago and Brandon Jacobs for Adam Eaton
- Omar Narvaez in the Rule 5, then flipping him this year for Alex Colome
- Flipped Frazier and Robertson for Rutherford
- Picked up Palka off waivers
And this doesn't include some really astute drafting and international signings the past few years (Madrigal, Robert, Hansen, Gonzalez, Adolfo, Fry, Hamilton, Burger if he can stay healthy, etc.).
The Tatis deal obviously turned out badly, but in fairness, Tatis was a 17-year-old who'd never played in the States at the time. He was a throw-in in that deal. Erik Johnson was the main return San Diego wanted in that deal.
Hahn's definitely been a mixed bag, but I think the sting of the day's news is clouding your judgment here.
I agree that Jerry and Kenny are the big problem, not Hahn. He's limited by what they allow him to do.
I further agree that he's made some good moves but (and it's a big but) even though Tatis was only 17 either San Diego was shrewd enough to ask for him or we were dumb enough to offer. He became a top prospect in a very short time, so there must have been something there at 17. Worst of all it was for James Shields, an over the hill puss arm with a big salary who wasn't worth a bag of baseballs.
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Kenny’s buddy, Dave Wilder, set the White Sox back two decades. Hahn has deftly tried to build back the minor leagues.
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Kenny’s buddy, Dave Wilder, set the White Sox back two decades. Hahn has deftly tried to build back the minor leagues.
If by deftly you mean teading All Stars, then yes.
Missing out on Manny isn't even what has me worked up. It is the crap show circus of the whole thing. It is Jay and Alonso. It is 2 years of "we've planned for this offseason" it is not competing with the financial might of the Padres. It is the "we tried so hard". It is the whole bloody circus.
It sure doesn't seem like an abundance of competence.
You are sure right about Wilder though.
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If by deftly you mean teading All Stars, then yes.
Missing out on Manny isn't even what has me worked up. It is the crap show circus of the whole thing. It is Jay and Alonso. It is 2 years of "we've planned for this offseason" it is not competing with the financial might of the Padres. It is the "we tried so hard". It is the whole bloody circus.
It sure doesn't seem like an abundance of competence.
You are sure right about Wilder though.
I said “deftly tried”.
I worked for an original investor with Jerry in the White Sox and Bulls. They ring in the money when they are down. Lose or break even when they are up, but they drive up valuation. Their formula is a financial cycle. The Sox have been down for too long but they are willing to spend. The problem is/was that Wilder raped them and left the minors with nothing. No name free agent was going to sign with them as there is no supporting cast.
For the first time in years, the Bulls aren’t selling out. The formula is broken. Michael needs to take over.
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The economic reality for 2019 is that even when attendance will be poor this season, the Sox will be drowning in cash. They have been and will continue to be vastly profitable.
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The economic reality for 2019 is that even when attendance will be poor this season, the Sox will be drowning in cash. They have been and will continue to be vastly profitable.
Jerry’s stadium real estate deal is still brilliant 30 years later.
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Breaking news!
They could also land neither.
Breaking news!
They did land one.
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buck,
I'm not going to do a blow-by-blow response because I don't think anyone here (including your or I) care that much.
But I'm even more convinced you're being unduly harsh and some of your criticisms here are, respectfully, kind of silly.
- The free agent list is dumb. Every team signs lots of AAAA guys every year to fill their Triple A roster and serve as call ups when necessary. And the Sox haven't been trying to win for three years, so obviously Hahn isn't going to be doing significant free agent deals. It is fair to say he's whiffed on some (Laroche, Rollins), but find me a GM who hasn't.
- Same with the draft. If your criticism is that Hahn hasn't hit on every pick, well, OK. Find me a GM who has. The fact remains that he's drafted really well. And yes, Fry (2104) and Hamilton (2016) were drafted by Hahn. And no one said they ought to "build their system" on relievers. But if you don't think teams win today by building a deep and (preferably) young and cheap bullpen, you haven't been watching baseball.
- You list Abreu's signing here, but not as one of Hahn 's "two good moves?" So, signing one of the league's top hitting 1Bs at an extraordinarily cheap rate given his production was not a good move in your book. Noted.
- You dismiss the Rutherford deal, but the fact is he turned assets that had no long-term value/future with the club into a top 10 prospect in a stacked system and a guy who could contribute at the major league level for years to come. I'm not as concerned about his power. He slugged .436 as a 21-year-old in High A, which is comparable or better than guys like AJ Pollock, Chris Taylor and Trey Mancini, among others, at that age and level. Obviously doesn't mean Rutherford ever will reach the level of those guys, but his power numbers aren't troublesome either.
- Pretty sure I didn't use the phrase "rousing success" in reference to Palka. But yeah, snaring a lefthanded bat capable of hitting 27 HRs and slugging .484 off waivers is a good move. We'll have to agree to disagree on that.
Look, as I said, Hahn's been a mixed bag. He's done some things really well (built a top level system) and some other things not so well (major league scouting/roster management). But to suggest he's made only two good moves is unduly harsh and not accurate.
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Word now that in addition to being for less guaranteed years and money, there was no "opt out" clause in the offer because the White Sox are philosophically opposed to them. Earth to the Sox:why bother with the likes of Machado or Harper? Opt outs were bound to be part of their deals.
Like Hahn or not, he had no chance with Machado or Harper due to $ restrictions and out of date "philosophical" restrictions.
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Word now that in addition to being for less guaranteed years and money, there was no "opt out" clause in the offer because the White Sox are philosophically opposed to them. Earth to the Sox:why bother with the likes of Machado or Harper? Opt outs were bound to be part of their deals.
Like Hahn or not, he had no chance with Machado or Harper due to $ restrictions and out of date "philosophical" restrictions.
Yeah, the no opt thing is a very bad look and is going to be detrimental to the Sox going forward if they don't change that dumb "philosophy."
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Maybe I'm just jaded because my team can't afford to give a single player $30M/year for an entire decade, but I would never want my team to give someone that kind of contract. I'd much rather my team take advantage of the talented players who aren't getting the long term deals they are hoping for, like Grandall and Moose. Obviously it wouldn't make sense for a team multiple years away from contending to give productive veterans one year deals, and I suppose it can be a turning point for a franchise to get the younger star player in there for the long term and then build around him, but how many times do these 10 year deals really work out?
I guess when you give an ARod contract and you win a title with him it "worked out," but the Yankees are made of money and if they didn't sign ARod to that deal they would've signed some other star for a similar contract. Otherwise of the 10 biggest contracts in the history of the MLB, not many end up being great for the team that gave out those contracts.
Giancarlo? Not great for Miami, who gave him the contract.
Macahdo? TBD
ARod Yankees - Paid off, but they can get away with it even if ARod doesn't perform to that level. Not sure that's the case with the White Sox, or about 25 other teams.
ARod Rangers - Not great for the Rangers
Miguel Cabrera - Not great so far for the Tigers
Pujols - Not great for the Angels
Cano - Not great for the Mariners
Votto - He's been awesome, but the Reds haven't
Price - Finally paid off in the Playoffs this year, but overall I'd say the Sox wouldn't do this deal again if they could go back in time knowing what they do now.
Kershaw - Obviously great, but no WS titles yet
And even Greinke, etc.
Just don't think $30M/year for a decade is a good idea no matter how young and good the player is.
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The Brewers could pay someone $30M a year for a decade. MLB revenues have exploded over the last decade. They could sign Harper and not only still make money but be under the luxury tax threshold.
Not that they should for many of the reasons you state, but they could most certainly afford to.
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buck,
I'm not going to do a blow-by-blow response because I don't think anyone here (including your or I) care that much.
But I'm even more convinced you're being unduly harsh and some of your criticisms here are, respectfully, kind of silly.
- The free agent list is dumb. Every team signs lots of AAAA guys every year to fill their Triple A roster and serve as call ups when necessary. And the Sox haven't been trying to win for three years, so obviously Hahn isn't going to be doing significant free agent deals. It is fair to say he's whiffed on some (Laroche, Rollins), but find me a GM who hasn't.
- Same with the draft. If your criticism is that Hahn hasn't hit on every pick, well, OK. Find me a GM who has. The fact remains that he's drafted really well. And yes, Fry (2104) and Hamilton (2016) were drafted by Hahn. And no one said they ought to "build their system" on relievers. But if you don't think teams win today by building a deep and (preferably) young and cheap bullpen, you haven't been watching baseball.
- You list Abreu's signing here, but not as one of Hahn 's "two good moves?" So, signing one of the league's top hitting 1Bs at an extraordinarily cheap rate given his production was not a good move in your book. Noted.
- You dismiss the Rutherford deal, but the fact is he turned assets that had no long-term value/future with the club into a top 10 prospect in a stacked system and a guy who could contribute at the major league level for years to come. I'm not as concerned about his power. He slugged .436 as a 21-year-old in High A, which is comparable or better than guys like AJ Pollock, Chris Taylor and Trey Mancini, among others, at that age and level. Obviously doesn't mean Rutherford ever will reach the level of those guys, but his power numbers aren't troublesome either.
- Pretty sure I didn't use the phrase "rousing success" in reference to Palka. But yeah, snaring a lefthanded bat capable of hitting 27 HRs and slugging .484 off waivers is a good move. We'll have to agree to disagree on that.
Look, as I said, Hahn's been a mixed bag. He's done some things really well (built a top level system) and some other things not so well (major league scouting/roster management). But to suggest he's made only two good moves is unduly harsh and not accurate.
Ok, I am on board with Rutherford and Palka. I don't dislike either of them as players and I really like Rutherford's ceiling. That he hit a ton of 2Bs last year is very encouraging. And obviously Abreu.
Hahn has done some things well. He has done things poorly, but mostly it has been the same crap show circus. The more that they talk about this the worse it gets. How do they not that a 300M guarantee is better than 250 with options that are easily manipulated? It just show ignorance, or incompetence. At the outset of the offseason, I bet most people would have predicted exactly 10/300 for Manny. The fact that the Sox could't go there shows they were full of it.
The only thing from preventing them from becoming the Bulls is that it is easier to trade for develop-able assets in the MLB. Sox fans just have to hope that every prospect hits. Because they can't play with the big boys, or in this case, even the other little brothers.
It mostly, to me, comes down to this, and I don't know why Hahn gets any benefit of the doubt. From the drafting, to the free agents, it is the same old song. The same old swing and misses as it has been for 10 years (or more on the drafting and development side).
(https://i.imgflip.com/1kqf5s.jpg)
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Maybe I'm just jaded because my team can't afford to give a single player $30M/year for an entire decade, but I would never want my team to give someone that kind of contract. I'd much rather my team take advantage of the talented players who aren't getting the long term deals they are hoping for, like Grandall and Moose. Obviously it wouldn't make sense for a team multiple years away from contending to give productive veterans one year deals, and I suppose it can be a turning point for a franchise to get the younger star player in there for the long term and then build around him, but how many times do these 10 year deals really work out?
I guess when you give an ARod contract and you win a title with him it "worked out," but the Yankees are made of money and if they didn't sign ARod to that deal they would've signed some other star for a similar contract. Otherwise of the 10 biggest contracts in the history of the MLB, not many end up being great for the team that gave out those contracts.
Giancarlo? Not great for Miami, who gave him the contract.
Macahdo? TBD
ARod Yankees - Paid off, but they can get away with it even if ARod doesn't perform to that level. Not sure that's the case with the White Sox, or about 25 other teams.
ARod Rangers - Not great for the Rangers
Miguel Cabrera - Not great so far for the Tigers
Pujols - Not great for the Angels
Cano - Not great for the Mariners
Votto - He's been awesome, but the Reds haven't
Price - Finally paid off in the Playoffs this year, but overall I'd say the Sox wouldn't do this deal again if they could go back in time knowing what they do now.
Kershaw - Obviously great, but no WS titles yet
And even Greinke, etc.
Just don't think $30M/year for a decade is a good idea no matter how young and good the player is.
I pretty much agree, and honestly if they were spending the money I would rather it go to Harper. As I said, it isn't even not getting Manny that has irritated me the most. It was the manner in which it happened. They look like clowns.
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Word now that in addition to being for less guaranteed years and money, there was no "opt out" clause in the offer because the White Sox are philosophically opposed to them. Earth to the Sox:why bother with the likes of Machado or Harper? Opt outs were bound to be part of their deals.
Like Hahn or not, he had no chance with Machado or Harper due to $ restrictions and out of date "philosophical" restrictions.
Another example of the clowniness of this whole process. Everyone who follows baseball knew there would be opt outs. If the Sox weren't serious, they shouldn't have pretended.
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Breaking news!
They did land one.
Great post! Your idea of something may or may not happen was truly prophetic!
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Another example of the clowniness of this whole process. Everyone who follows baseball knew there would be opt outs. If the Sox weren't serious, they shouldn't have pretended.
Hahn praised his people for their creativity in putting together a competitive offer for Machado. Translation: We weren't allowed (by ownership) to guarantee 10years and we weren't allowed (by ownership) to include an opt out (the two things Machado wanted most) so we offered "vesting options" for years 9 and 10 that COULD have put the contract north of 300 million. LOL. JR being too cute by half - Sox were only in it if they were the only bidder.
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Hahn praised his people for their creativity in putting together a competitive offer for Machado. Translation: We weren't allowed (by ownership) to guarantee 10years and we weren't allowed (by ownership) to include an opt out (the two things Machado wanted most) so we offered "vesting options" for years 9 and 10 that COULD have put the contract north of 300 million. LOL. JR being too cute by half - Sox were only in it if they were the only bidder.
They're a joke. No one expects them to be where the Yankees or Dodgers, or even the Cubs are payroll wise. But they should be able to be middle of the pack. They should be able to out work the Padres, who already have bad contracts. They should be able to maintain a payroll equivalent to the Indians.
Keep in mind that between Nova, Alonso, Jay, Colome and Herrera (none of whom will help the next good Sox team) they spent about 40 million. Gosh, could there have been a more productive, future thinking, way to have spent that money?
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We weren't allowed (by ownership) to guarantee 10years
I guess they couldn't meet his... Guaranteed Rate.
(http://blogmedia.designpublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/david-caruso-sunglasses_400_260_c1_center_top_0_0.jpg)
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Reinsdorf.
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I think that from the Padres angle, this deal is a bit of a hedge against the next collective bargaining agreement. If the players "win" those negotiations, this deal looks fine. A "win" for the players would mean either eliminating the luxury tax or securing a greater proportion of revenues than they currently receive. In that context, based on current/projected revenues, a $30M contract won't kill you vis-a-vis the rest of the league. If ownership "wins" in the next round of negotiations, then this might turn into an albatross but if you're ownership you're willing to bite the bullet because it will mean you've firmed up a salary cap situation and probably some revenue sharing as well.
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I don't see how the players "win" the next round of negotiations. The owners receive enormous revenues and are wealthy outside of their MLB ownership - not BECAUSE of it. I think a player's "win" will come with large strings. Like an earlier path to free agency, but that it will be restricted and/or comes with a harder salary cap or even a cap on the length of contracts.
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I think I've told this story here before, but if not, here goes.
My first job out of MU was working in the Bulls front office selling season tickets. Management didn't allow us to have internet at our desks, and this was pre smart phones. All we had was a database and a phone book. A couple of weeks into the job, it was a Friday late afternoon, and I was going to go up to Milwaukee for the weekend to see MU friends. I called my friends from my office line. I probably talked for 20 minutes that afternoon.
2 weeks later, I got a bill from Reinsdorf's office for (I don't remember the exact amount) $10 that I owed in long distance phone call charges. I had to cut Reinsdorf a check for calling up to Milwaukee from Chicago. Was it perfectly in his right to do so? Sure, I get it. Did it ever sit well with me from an optics standpoint? No.
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I think I've told this story here before, but if not, here goes.
My first job out of MU was working in the Bulls front office selling season tickets. Management didn't allow us to have internet at our desks, and this was pre smart phones. All we had was a database and a phone book. A couple of weeks into the job, it was a Friday late afternoon, and I was going to go up to Milwaukee for the weekend to see MU friends. I called my friends from my office line. I probably talked for 20 minutes that afternoon.
2 weeks later, I got a bill from Reinsdorf's office for (I don't remember the exact amount) $10 that I owed in long distance phone call charges. I had to cut Reinsdorf a check for calling up to Milwaukee from Chicago. Was it perfectly in his right to do so? Sure, I get it. Did it ever sit well with me from an optics standpoint? No.
I had friends that worked for Art Spanos. They were doing suite sales. When they sold out the suites, which meant a job well done....they were laid off. It happens, unfortunately.
My experience working in pro sports was very good with Angels and Ducks, but there are definitely some tight wads out there.
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I think that from the Padres angle, this deal is a bit of a hedge against the next collective bargaining agreement. If the players "win" those negotiations, this deal looks fine. A "win" for the players would mean either eliminating the luxury tax or securing a greater proportion of revenues than they currently receive. In that context, based on current/projected revenues, a $30M contract won't kill you vis-a-vis the rest of the league. If ownership "wins" in the next round of negotiations, then this might turn into an albatross but if you're ownership you're willing to bite the bullet because it will mean you've firmed up a salary cap situation and probably some revenue sharing as well.
The Padres have the same problem the Marlins and Rays do. They're in markets that should be able to easily support an MLB team but the team has been mediocre to bad for so long that a huge indifference has settled in. Brining Manny in shook up that indifference and probably should sell tickets. Remains to be seen whether enhanced gate receipts will cover his salary.
Miami builds a brand new stadium off Little Havana (former site of the Orange Bowl) and promptly screws what should be one of the best baseball markets in the United States. The team was so bad last year that they did not even draw a million people. Baseball fans know a AAA team when they see it and Miami draws like a good AAA team.
Ditto for Tampa. May not be as good a market as Miami and it has stadium problems, but consistent excellence would make the Rays a good draw. As it stands, yuck. Kansas City, Minnesota and maybe even Seattle are headed down the same path if the team doesn't get better fast.
Winning isn't everything but wanting to win (and trying to win) is!!!
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Miami builds a brand new stadium off Little Havana (former site of the Orange Bowl) and promptly screws what should be one of the best baseball markets in the United States. The team was so bad last year that they did not even draw a million people. Baseball fans know a AAA team when they see it and Miami draws like a good AAA team.
It runs a lot deeper in Miami. It's a lousy professional sports town that has never cared about the Marlins.
In 2004, after winning the World Series with a talented young core of exciting players like Josh Beckett, Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis, they finished 26th in average attendance.
Same in 1998 when, a year after winning a World Series, they finished 22nd.
Perhaps we can forgive Tampa. I know I wouldn't want to regularly go to ball games in that dump of a stadium they have.
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From 2008-13, the Rays went to the postseason 4 times in 6 years. Nevertheless, they never even drew 1.9M in any season. They drew only 1.5M in the 92-win 2013 season; that was 15th of 15 AL teams. The ballpark is the pits, but there is little evidence that Tampa-St. Pete actually can support big-league baseball.
And Miami is definitely a horrible MLB town.
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It runs a lot deeper in Miami. It's a lousy professional sports town that has never cared about the Marlins.
In 2004, after winning the World Series with a talented young core of exciting players like Josh Beckett, Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis, they finished 26th in average attendance.
Same in 1998 when, a year after winning a World Series, they finished 22nd.
Perhaps we can forgive Tampa. I know I wouldn't want to regularly go to ball games in that dump of a stadium they have.
Didn't they fire sale their team the year after each WS win?
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Didn't they fire sale their team the year after each WS win?
No. The 2004 team brought back most of their key players (Beckett, Willis, Cabrera, Pierre, Pavano, Lowell, Gonzalez, etc.).
They did trade Derek Lee and lost Ivan Rodriguez in free agency.
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https://www.yahoo.com/sports/dodgers-ace-clayton-kershaw-shut-indefinitely-due-unknown-arm-issue-195623523.html
Kershaw shut down early in Spring Training. "Dead arm"
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https://www.yahoo.com/sports/dodgers-ace-clayton-kershaw-shut-indefinitely-due-unknown-arm-issue-195623523.html
Kershaw shut down early in Spring Training. "Dead arm"
He was just named opening day pitcher on Wednesday....I'm guessing that may be in jeopardy.
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https://www.yahoo.com/sports/dodgers-ace-clayton-kershaw-shut-indefinitely-due-unknown-arm-issue-195623523.html
Kershaw shut down early in Spring Training. "Dead arm"
PTSD from Woodruff teeing off on him
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https://www.yahoo.com/sports/dodgers-ace-clayton-kershaw-shut-indefinitely-due-unknown-arm-issue-195623523.html
Kershaw shut down early in Spring Training. "Dead arm"
Needs to get some of Phil Mickelson's spare HGH.
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Needs to get some of Phil Mickelson's spare HGH.
Arrieta's is way, way better.
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I really REALLY don't need to see Harper in Dodger Blue
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I really REALLY don't need to see Harper in Dodger Blue
I'd bet a fair amount of money you don't have to worry about it. Philadelphia is the only team offering a long term deal, and won't budge on negotiating against themselves. So Boras is trying to leverage Harper's preference for the Dodgers, and LAD's willingness to pay higher AAV over a shorter number of years, to get Philadelphia to pay a premium. This ends with Bryce in Philadelphia on a contract for double digit years, but the Phillies are going to have to pony up an extra couple mil per year for Philadelphia not being Los Angeles.
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I really REALLY don't need to see Harper in Dodger Blue
I think the idea of him taking a short term deal, whether the Giants or Dodgers are insane. Why would he pass on a huge payday and assume the risk of a major injury?
I can't imagine him signing for less than Machado, or even less than Stanton. Boras will do his thing. 10/330 at least.
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Jerry Reinsdorf's birthday today. Still holding out hope for that 300 million dollar birthday present...
I am pathetic... ugh.
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Bryant has been pretty vocal this spring. He obviously still has a lot of animosity toward the cubs for manipulating his service time as a rookie to keep him under team control for an extra year.
I’ll make a prediction now that he will not re-sign with the cubs when he becomes a free agent.
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Bryant has been pretty vocal this spring. He obviously still has a lot of animosity toward the cubs for manipulating his service time as a rookie to keep him under team control for an extra year.
I’ll make a prediction now that he will not re-sign with the cubs when he becomes a free agent.
Like Machado, Harper, and pretty much everyone else in the world, Bryant will sign with whomever gives him the most money.
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I think the idea of him taking a short term deal, whether the Giants or Dodgers are insane. Why would he pass on a huge payday and assume the risk of a major injury?
I can't imagine him signing for less than Machado, or even less than Stanton. Boras will do his thing. 10/330 at least.
Why would anyone give him 10/330? Averaged 2.5 WAR/year over the last three years. Take away his 10 WAR season in 2015, he has averaged 2.9 WAR/season in the other 6 years. That's a solid player, not the biggest contract in history kind of guy. One caveat, I think the offensive piece of WAR is well considered, but I think the defensive part is suspect at best and his defensive WAR is atrocious of late and a good reason why he's not more of a 4 WAR guy. At any rate, not sure he is the player people think he is. It will be interesting to see which direction his career goes from here, because he obviously has talent. Not sure I'd want to risk a big chunk of my payroll for 10 years on it, though.
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Why would anyone give him 10/330? Averaged 2.5 WAR/year over the last three years. Take away his 10 WAR season in 2015, he has averaged 2.9 WAR/season in the other 6 years. That's a solid player, not the biggest contract in history kind of guy. One caveat, I think the offensive piece of WAR is well considered, but I think the defensive part is suspect at best and his defensive WAR is atrocious of late and a good reason why he's not more of a 4 WAR guy. At any rate, not sure he is the player people think he is. It will be interesting to see which direction his career goes from here, because he obviously has talent. Not sure I'd want to risk a big chunk of my payroll for 10 years on it, though.
Well, there are 6 active players with a higher career OPS. Trout, Miggy, Votto, Pujols, Goldy, and Stanton.
Even in his down years, he is an offensive force. If you can have that impact offensively, defense doesn't matter. Look at Stanton. Not to mention that he is likely just entering his prime. He may not get the biggest deal ever, but I'd be shocked.
I'd be comfortable betting his deal will surpass Machado and Stanton.
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Arenado 8/$255 - $260.
Big winner - Bryce Harper.
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Collusion, again?
https://sports.yahoo.com/francisco-liriano-got-seven-minor-210512720.html
We have been loath to throw out the c-word — collusion — when discussing the current labor strife in Major League Baseball. It is a claim that’s very hard to prove, even though there are multiple examples of teams colluding against players throughout baseball history.
However, as players have spoken up about their experiences in the free agent market, several have made observations that seem more than coincidental. Earlier this month, Cubs reliever Brad Brach said, “We talked to certain teams and they told us that, ‘We have an algorithm and here’s where you fall.’ … It’s just kind of weird that all offers are the same, they come around the same time. Everybody tells you there’s an algorithm.” Brach ultimately inked a one-year, $4.35 million contract with the Cubs which includes a 2020 club option.
Two days later, Rockies infielder Mark Reynolds said he went without a contract offer for weeks. One day, while he was out playing golf, he got a call from his agent who said he had four teams offering minor league deals on the same day. Reynolds ended up picking the Rockies.
Add Pirates pitcher Francisco Liriano as a data point. Via Rob Biertempfel of The Athletic, Liriano said about his contract offers, “They all came the same week, seven on them on the same day, and they were all were minor league deals, pretty much the same money.” He settled on a deal with the Pirates, which will pay him $1.8 million if he makes the major league roster.
The MLBPA filed three grievances against the owners between 1985-87. Similar to recent years, the free agent market stagnated in that three-year window. Free agents were, by and large, unable to find contracts with new teams. The owners also had an “information bank,” sharing information about their contract offers to players with each other. An arbitrator ruled in favor of the players on all three grievances. The owners ultimately had to pay $280 million in damages to the players. Marvin Miller, who was the executive director of the MLBPA, wrote that the owners’ behavior was “tantamount to fixing, not just games, but entire pennant races, including all postseason series.”
Since then, the MLBPA has alleged collusion — both unofficially and officially — on three other occasions. In 2006, the owners agreed to pay the players $12 million from the luxury tax revenue sharing funds after being accused of colluding in 2002-03. However, ownership made no admission of guilt. In 2007, the MLBPA suggested owners colluded by sharing information about free agents and conspired in order to keep free agent Alex Rodriguez’s contract down. In 2008, the MLBPA ultimately decided against filing a grievance against the owners for working with each other in order for Barry Bonds to remain unsigned. In 2007, his final season, Bonds hit .276/.480/.565 (1.045 OPS) with 28 home runs and 66 RBI in 477 plate appearances as a 42-year-old.
That multiple players this month alone have independently said their contract offers have come in bunches and all with similar figures suggests more than a mere coincidence. There is precedent for ownership to work together. Something is fishy.
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Arenado 8/$255 - $260.
Big winner - Bryce Harper.
Arenado signs for basically what the White Sox offered Machado. He's a couple of years older, true - was this a bit of a home town discount?
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Arenado signs for basically what the White Sox offered Machado. He's a couple of years older, true - was this a bit of a home town discount?
Nolan wasn't a free agent, so I think this new deal is basically the Rockies' answer to an extension request.
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Nolan wasn't a free agent, so I think this new deal is basically the Rockies' answer to an extension request.
I'm aware of that, but he was due for free agency after the 2019 season.
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Arenado signs for basically what the White Sox offered Machado. He's a couple of years older, true - was this a bit of a home town discount?
Higher AAV and an opt out. To go along with the fact that he is two years older. This looks like a significantly better deal than what the Sox offered Macahdo in my opinion.
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Arenado signs for basically what the White Sox offered Machado. He's a couple of years older, true - was this a bit of a home town discount?
It was every bit an "Oh sh!t the owners will make me sweat it out til March 2020" signing.
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Higher AAV and an opt out. To go along with the fact that he is two years older. This looks like a significantly better deal than what the Sox offered Macahdo in my opinion.
No vesting option on the back end, though. I would agree it's a little better but wouldn't say significantly.
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No vesting option on the back end, though. I would agree it's a little better but wouldn't say significantly.
And full no trade.
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It was every bit an "Oh sh!t the owners will make me sweat it out til March 2020" signing.
I don't know. This has been the Rockies procedure. They seem to lock up their guys before free agency.
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Marquette High alum Jeff Bridich locking down Arenado, hey?
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Great post! Your idea of something may or may not happen was truly prophetic!
Not many had the Padres as one of those possible happenings
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Not many had the Padres as one of those possible happenings
Lol. Them and the Phillies have been listed with just about every big name on the market this offseason, including Machado and Harper.
But congrats Chicos, only you thought Machado might, or might not, end up in SD!
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Not many had the Padres as one of those possible happenings
Uhhh, it was being widely, widely reported that they had been meeting with Machado by that time.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/02/padres-met-recently-with-manny-machado.html
Date from that story was Feb. 14.
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I may be interpreting this incorrectly, but I believe I just saw that Arenado has the ability to opt out after each of the years after year 5.
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I may be interpreting this incorrectly, but I believe I just saw that Arenado has the ability to opt out after each of the years after year 5.
My understanding was that he has an opt out after 3 years. I thought it was just a one time thing, but I haven’t got all the details yet.
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My understanding was that he has an opt out after 3 years. I thought it was just a one time thing, but I haven’t got all the details yet.
3 years gives him an opt out after the current CBA expires. Don't think that's a coincidence.
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My understanding was that he has an opt out after 3 years. I thought it was just a one time thing, but I haven’t got all the details yet.
Ah. Ok this is correct. I was misunderstanding a Jon Heyman tweet.
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Harper to Philly, terms forthcoming.
Edit: Sounds like 13/330.
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Harper to Philly, terms forthcoming.
Edit: Sounds like 13/330.
Probably smart to look at length and total value than AAV. It's been tough sledding for players to get any sort of contract in their age 36/37 years, so lock in that value now. There's risk that he will have left some money on the table, but Machado would have to get 3 years, 30 million in his old age to make up for it. I'd take Harpers deal. I would also take Manny Pina's deal if anyone is offering.
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Probably smart to look at length and total value than AAV. It's been tough sledding for players to get any sort of contract in their age 36/37 years, so lock in that value now. There's risk that he will have left some money on the table, but Machado would have to get 3 years, 30 million in his old age to make up for it. I'd take Harpers deal. I would also take Manny Pina's deal if anyone is offering.
I thought Philly had one of the best offseasons before signing Harper. This just locks it up. They had work to do, they were just terrible in the 2nd half last year, but with their improvements, they should be really good. They signed McCutchen (they don't need mvp McCutch, he still delivered basically an .800 OPS last year), they got Segura to play SS, Realmuto to catch, Robertson to close, and of course Harper.
Segura
Hernanderz
Hoskins
Harper
Realmuto
McCutchen
Herrera
Franco
Hmmm, not sure how I'd work the lineup, there is my first thought, but there is a lot of power there. Herrera and Franco could each hit 20, and they may be the worst hitters in the lineup.
Their bullpen should be good, Dominguez and Robertson don't match what the Mets have, but it is passable certainly.
The only question is their rotation. Nola and Arrieta are solid as 1-2, but they are shaky after that. I wonder if they still have any of that "stupid money" to spend on Keuchel.
The NL East will be a bear this year. Four really strong teams. The Mets got better, the Nats improved (even with losing Harper I think they'll be fine) and the Braves won the division last year and are still loaded with young talent that could get even better. The Marlins are probably looking at the first overall pick next time around.
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The NL East will be a bear this year. Four really strong teams. The Mets got better, the Nats improved (even with losing Harper I think they'll be fine) and the Braves won the division last year and are still loaded with young talent that could get even better. The Marlins are probably looking at the first overall pick next time around.
This is spot on. Last year, the NL East was arguably the most pitcher friendly division in baseball. It collectively had the worst OPS of any division (though only .001 worse than the AL Central). This year, I wouldn't be surprised if it were neck and neck with the Central for best in the NL and both of those should beat the AL Central too.
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If I remember twitter correctly from this afternoon, Mets will still be paying Bonilla for 4 years AFTER Bryce's contract is complete.
Holy crap.
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If I remember twitter correctly from this afternoon, Mets will still be paying Bonilla for 4 years AFTER Bryce's contract is complete.
Holy crap.
Bartoli colon will be 58 and probably playing with Harper on the Phils.
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Probably smart to look at length and total value than AAV. It's been tough sledding for players to get any sort of contract in their age 36/37 years, so lock in that value now. There's risk that he will have left some money on the table, but Machado would have to get 3 years, 30 million in his old age to make up for it. I'd take Harpers deal. I would also take Manny Pina's deal if anyone is offering.
Manny has an opt out, Harper supposedly doesn't. I think Manny got the better deal.
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Manny has an opt out, Harper supposedly doesn't. I think Manny got the better deal.
Manny won the off-season.
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Harper could have gotten more per season from the deal the Nats originally offered: 10 years, $300M.
This one essentially gives him $10M for each of Year 11, Year 12 and Year 13. So if he is still productive as an old man (such as Bonds, Ortiz, etc), he will be the bargain of bargains then. If he is the more typical guy who fades and/or gets hurt, he will pocket an extra $30M for just sittin' on his old arse.
Hard to say either one is a bad deal!
I mean, $10M a year for sitting on your arse ... that's almost double what I get!
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Harper could have gotten more per season from the deal the Nats originally offered: 10 years, $300M.
This one essentially gives him $10M for each of Year 11, Year 12 and Year 13. So if he is still productive as an old man (such as Bonds, Ortiz, etc), he will be the bargain of bargains then. If he is the more typical guy who fades and/or gets hurt, he will pocket an extra $30M for just sittin' on his old arse.
Hard to say either one is a bad deal!
I mean, $10M a year for sitting on your arse ... that's almost double what I get!
It was also reported that there was 100 million in that Nats deal deferred and he would have been paid until age 60... Bonilla would have been impressed with that, but it would certainly negatively impact the NPV of that offer.
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It was also reported that there was 100 million in that Nats deal deferred and he would have been paid until age 60... Bonilla would have been impressed with that, but it would certainly negatively impact the NPV of that offer.
The old 300 million dollar deal - $1 a year for 300 million years!
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It was also reported that there was 100 million in that Nats deal deferred and he would have been paid until age 60... Bonilla would have been impressed with that, but it would certainly negatively impact the NPV of that offer.
Thanks buck. I didn't see that.
I did just hear that the Dodgers offered him $180M for 4 years -- which would have been the richest average contract in the history of North American pro sports.
One would think a 26-year-old athlete who is supremely confident in himself would bet on himself still being great at age 30, when he would have been able to become a free agent again and break the bank again.
If that report is true, interesting the Harper would have not chosen it.
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Thanks buck. I didn't see that.
I did just hear that the Dodgers offered him $180M for 4 years -- which would have been the richest average contract in the history of North American pro sports.
One would think a 26-year-old athlete who is supremely confident in himself would bet on himself still being great at age 30, when he would have been able to become a free agent again and break the bank again.
If that report is true, interesting the Harper would have not chosen it.
Trout deal will be insane. I have been so lucky to watch him when he was still a pup in Spring Training and each year home games since with the big club. Dodgers are going to pay him ridiculous amount, Phillies, Yankees, etc.
I will enjoy the last year and a half before we trade him to get something. As much as I would like to keep him, I don’t believe it is sustainable to do these types of deals and preparing to move on. Baseball has to many variables to put that much money into one player.
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I'm guessing Harper will not do the same ...
@darrenrovell Mar 1
My favorite Ricky Henderson story used to be the one where the A's had to come to him to ask him where the $1 million bonus they gave to him was.
He told them he framed it.
(The A's then proceeded to tell him how cashing a check works.)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0ly0LxW0AE9uv4.jpg)
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Same paper, same author, 469 days apart
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0qlJqYXQAIhdxM.jpg:large)
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Trout deal will be insane. I have been so lucky to watch him when he was still a pup in Spring Training and each year home games since with the big club. Dodgers are going to pay him ridiculous amount, Phillies, Yankees, etc.
I will enjoy the last year and a half before we trade him to get something. As much as I would like to keep him, I don’t believe it is sustainable to do these types of deals and preparing to move on. Baseball has to many variables to put that much money into one player.
I'm inclined to agree - though someone will pay him and I can't begrudge them that either. Reports today that the Angels are likely to offer a 350/10 extension - https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/03/angels-have-considered-offering-10-years-350mm-to-mike-trout.html (https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/03/angels-have-considered-offering-10-years-350mm-to-mike-trout.html). I don't think that even starts as enough and would like to see LAA approach Trout the same way the Nats approached Harper. Don't even get into negotiations, just go to him and say "400/10 is all we can do - we know you're a generational talent and would love to keep you, but that's just where we're at."
Trout seems like a pretty bread and butter guy, so maybe he just wants to stay and will work toward making that happen. If his free agency process follows the typical model, though, I don't see any way he re-ups with LAA. Those Pujols and Upton deals are just killers. Assuming they'd have to give Trout $40M per year, and only have a middling farm system, there isn't an avenue for that team to get any better - and winning seems to be really important to Trout at this point in his career. If they resign Trout, they'd look a lot like the Lions paying Stafford $27M/year.
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Ok, you are now the MLB Commissioner. What do you do with this case?
Let's be honest, husbands and wives bicker with each other. Sometimes that bickering gets a little out of control and one or both sides truly regrets it. It's life, it happens. Thankfully when that happens, we don't have it splashed all over TMZ.
They were pissed at each other. She took his phone. She would not give it back. He forcibly took it. Seems like both were wrong but he was "more wrong" by getting physical. The video is only five seconds so we have no context on what transpired right before he decided to physically take his phone.
Charges will not be filed as she is not pressing charges. So the question is, should his baseball career end over this? If nothing, how do explain to Addison Russell his 50 game suspension? Both were physical with a woman.
(video if the incident in this link)
Video shows Giants CEO Larry Baer pulling wife to ground in San Francisco plaza
https://www.sfchronicle.com/giants/article/Video-shows-Giants-CEO-Larry-Baer-dragging-wife-13656221.php
Giants CEO Larry Baer pulled his wife out of a chair and caused her to fall to the ground in a San Francisco plaza on Friday morning, an incident captured on video by a witness and under investigation by city police.
The video shows Baer stepping over his wife, Pam, as she sits in a chair in the plaza in Hayes Valley before noon. She screams, “Oh, my God, no, help!” as Baer appears to try to grab a phone out of her right hand.
She hangs on to the phone, her chair tips, and she falls to her back. Larry Baer and his wife were having coffee when they engaged in an extended argument, and both were wearing suits.
The 5-second video was provided by a worker in the area who said he witnessed the incident, but spoke on the condition of anonymity. The footage — along with a second video lasting 10 seconds — does not make clear what led to the incident. The witness sold publishing rights to the video to TMZ.
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Re Baer - a mandatory 6 month break away from all team business without pay, followed by mandatory counseling. Tougher to punish because he's part of the ownership group and executive team and you can't really measure a punishment in a number of games. I don't think you force him to divest, but his punishment has to be equal to or greater than players that are first time domestic abuse offenders.
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Same paper, same author, 469 days apart
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0qlJqYXQAIhdxM.jpg:large)
My go to newspaper, but hasn't been a good last 72 hours for them.
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My go to newspaper, but hasn't been a good last 72 hours for them.
That lawsuit doe
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Same paper, same author, 469 days apart
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0qlJqYXQAIhdxM.jpg:large)
So bad and not at all surprising.
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If you read the article, it makes some sense at least the way he calculates. First, Harper had a poor year by his standards last year. So his future projection has decreased - and actually calls his 10 WAR season more of an outlier. Second, the growth in cost per marginal win has actually slowed down in recently years, probably due to teams getting more value from less expensive players. That's why the phrase "in this market" is used.
And of course one could say his calculations are phony and that reality could be different than projections, but he is consistent.
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I'm inclined to agree - though someone will pay him and I can't begrudge them that either. Reports today that the Angels are likely to offer a 350/10 extension - https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/03/angels-have-considered-offering-10-years-350mm-to-mike-trout.html (https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/03/angels-have-considered-offering-10-years-350mm-to-mike-trout.html). I don't think that even starts as enough and would like to see LAA approach Trout the same way the Nats approached Harper. Don't even get into negotiations, just go to him and say "400/10 is all we can do - we know you're a generational talent and would love to keep you, but that's just where we're at."
Trout seems like a pretty bread and butter guy, so maybe he just wants to stay and will work toward making that happen. If his free agency process follows the typical model, though, I don't see any way he re-ups with LAA. Those Pujols and Upton deals are just killers. Assuming they'd have to give Trout $40M per year, and only have a middling farm system, there isn't an avenue for that team to get any better - and winning seems to be really important to Trout at this point in his career. If they resign Trout, they'd look a lot like the Lions paying Stafford $27M/year.
Pujols comes off in 2021. Trout is a quiet guy, drives the MLB nuts that he isn't flamboyant and Mr. Marketing. He does like So. Cal and the weather, and Orange County is certainly a nice place to play. The one thing people don't talk about is the potential new ballpark for the Angels down on the water in Long Beach. The current deal at Angels stadium only goes through 2020. Moreno is going to want an anchor for the new stadium, so this gets interesting. The Halos signed a $3Billion TV deal and they average 3 million fans, so the revenue part isn't currently a situation except that Moreno doesn't want to go into the luxury tax. Obviously they have decisions to make in the next 12 months. Either way, it's been blast watching him grow up in the org and being able to see him play as much as we do.
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That lawsuit doe
The reaction to it, dumping on a Friday afternoon with an editor's note essentially admitting their reporting was shoddy. From a credibility position, they should have done better and not bury it on a Friday afternoon. News media does not care for corporations and politicians doing that, they should not be doing it either.
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Re Baer - a mandatory 6 month break away from all team business without pay, followed by mandatory counseling. Tougher to punish because he's part of the ownership group and executive team and you can't really measure a punishment in a number of games. I don't think you force him to divest, but his punishment has to be equal to or greater than players that are first time domestic abuse offenders.
Will he be gone six months?
Giants CEO Larry Baer takes leave after altercation with wife
https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/giants-ceo-larry-baer-takes-leave-altercation-wife/
San Francisco Giants President and CEO Larry Baer was granted a leave of absence from the team on Monday following the release of a video showing him in a physical altercation with his wife.
The Giants board of directors released a statement that said Baer had made a request that was accepted to take personal time away from the team in response to the video released by TMZ last week showing the altercation in a San Francisco park between Baer and his wife, Pam.
"Mr. Baer has acknowledged that his behaviour was unacceptable, apologized to the organization and is committed to taking steps to make sure that this never happens again," the statement said.
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Nm
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Just received this in my inbox:
The Seaver family announced today that Hall of Fame pitcher Tom Seaver has recently been diagnosed with dementia. Tom will continue to work in his beloved vineyard at his California home, but has chosen to completely retire from public life. The family is deeply appreciative of those who have supported Tom throughout his career, on and off the field, and who do so now by honoring his request for privacy. We join Tom in sending warmest regards to everyone.
I was not a Mets fan growing up, but I thought Tom Seaver was the best pitcher in baseball. Sad news.
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One of the reasons Harper May have balked at Dodgers and Trout may go elsewhere...the economics of the tax hit. Article today in LA Times, worth about one year’s salary in lost income to sign with a California team.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-skelton-income-tax-20190307-story.html
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One of the reasons Harper May have balked at Dodgers and Trout may go elsewhere...the economics of the tax hit. Article today in LA Times, worth about one year’s salary in lost income to sign with a California team.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-skelton-income-tax-20190307-story.html
How will they survive on only $315M?
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One of the reasons Harper May have balked at Dodgers and Trout may go elsewhere...the economics of the tax hit. Article today in LA Times, worth about one year’s salary in lost income to sign with a California team.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-skelton-income-tax-20190307-story.html
Explains why California teams never get any talented players.
I mean, who wants to play for the Golden State Warriors or Lakers or Rams or Dodgers?
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Just received this in my inbox:
The Seaver family announced today that Hall of Fame pitcher Tom Seaver has recently been diagnosed with dementia. Tom will continue to work in his beloved vineyard at his California home, but has chosen to completely retire from public life. The family is deeply appreciative of those who have supported Tom throughout his career, on and off the field, and who do so now by honoring his request for privacy. We join Tom in sending warmest regards to everyone.
I was not a Mets fan growing up, but I thought Tom Seaver was the best pitcher in baseball. Sad news.
Sad, indeed. Not just for Mr. Seaver, but his family. The families endure this type of disease as much, if not more, than the person plagued by it. Especially at the end. Very difficult and can only hope his journey and that of his family is as comforting as possible.
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How will they survive on only $315M?
Not the point at all. The point was that teams in California and some other states may find it more difficult to sign players because money isn't the same everywhere. Conversely, some other states may have an advantage. I thought the article was factual and pointed that out fairly clearly. Ultimately it will be up to each person to decide what is enough. It also isn't about surviving, but what you plan on doing with the money. When you get into the numbers these guys are talking about, it becomes legacy driving, how are they going to use their money to drive their legacy. If they can get an additional $30M simply by doing nothing different than signing in another state, that is a lot of good that can be done with that kind of dough.
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Not the point at all. The point was that teams in California and some other states may find it more difficult to sign players because money isn't the same everywhere. Conversely, some other states may have an advantage. I thought the article was factual and pointed that out fairly clearly. Ultimately it will be up to each person to decide what is enough. It also isn't about surviving, but what you plan on doing with the money. When you get into the numbers these guys are talking about, it becomes legacy driving, how are they going to use their money to drive their legacy. If they can get an additional $30M simply by doing nothing different than signing in another state, that is a lot of good that can be done with that kind of dough.
Somebody needs to tell Anthony Davis to stop pining for the Lakers. And KD and Steph to stop re-signing with the Warriors. And Machado to un-sign with the juggernaut that is the Padres.
Seriously, I do know what you are saying. But when you're talkin' about Monopoly money, these guys mostly want to go where they think they'll be happy. They love the weather, the aura of Cali and, in at least some of the cases, a chance (they think) to win big.
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Explains why California teams never get any talented players.
I mean, who wants to play for the Golden State Warriors or Lakers or Rams or Dodgers?
Some of those teams are through the draft where they have no choice. The Lakers are horrific, but LBJ is here to start his movie business.
No one is saying they can't do well or sign players, but it may deter SOME from signing in free agency. Personal choice, it is just one of many factors....no more no less, but the article was fair in how it articulated it. No need to take out of context.
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Some of those teams are through the draft where they have no choice. The Lakers are horrific, but LBJ is here to start his movie business.
No one is saying they can't do well or sign players, but it may deter SOME from signing in free agency. Personal choice, it is just one of many factors....no more no less, but the article was fair in how it articulated it. No need to take out of context.
Didn't take it out of context at all, and yes it might deter some players. Few probably, but some possibly.
Can't understand why you just don't use your personal choice and boogie the heck out of there. Life's too short to live someplace you hate with every burning ember of your being. Your family would adjust.
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Didn't take it out of context at all, and yes it might deter some players. Few probably, but some possibly.
Can't understand why you just don't use your personal choice and boogie the heck out of there. Life's too short to live someplace you hate with every burning ember of your being. Your family would adjust.
I made it quite clear, my daughter is a junior in high school. One more year for us. Easy for you to say "adjust", but I don't believe in yanking kids out of high school, they have enough challenges at that time of their lives. But I cannot unnatural carnal knowledgeing wait to get out of what this state has become. Highest poverty rate in the country now, highest tax state, education plummeted to 44th, traffic as far as the eye can see.......ooooh, but it would be the 7th best GDP if it were its own country. Yup, except we've been top 10 GDP in the world for 50 years but without the crap stats we now have become. Cannot unnatural carnal knowledgeing wait and will join the masses that leave every single year to continue the net migration out.
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I made it quite clear, my daughter is a junior in high school. One more year for us. Easy for you to say "adjust", but I don't believe in yanking kids out of high school, they have enough challenges at that time of their lives. But I cannot unnatural carnal knowledgeing wait to get out of what this state has become. Highest poverty rate in the country now, highest tax state, education plummeted to 44th, traffic as far as the eye can see.......ooooh, but it would be the 7th best GDP if it were its own country. Yup, except we've been top 10 GDP in the world for 50 years but without the crap stats we now have become. Cannot unnatural carnal knowledgeing wait and will join the masses that leave every single year to continue the net migration out.
Honestly, I didn't remember reading that about your daughter, and that makes sense.
Nobody should live in a place they hate. It's a big country.
Where you gonna move?
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Honestly, I didn't remember reading that about your daughter, and that makes sense.
Nobody should live in a place they hate. It's a big country.
Where you gonna move?
I hear he loves the Charlotte area :-\
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I hear he loves the Charlotte area :-\
That would be fun. We could hang out at political rallies, atheist events and such!
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That would be fun. We could hang out at political rallies, atheist events and such!
Careful what you wish for, cheeks is a big fan of Christmas decorations. Hes the clark griswold of orange county currently. :o
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Just received this in my inbox:
The Seaver family announced today that Hall of Fame pitcher Tom Seaver has recently been diagnosed with dementia. Tom will continue to work in his beloved vineyard at his California home, but has chosen to completely retire from public life. The family is deeply appreciative of those who have supported Tom throughout his career, on and off the field, and who do so now by honoring his request for privacy. We join Tom in sending warmest regards to everyone.
I was not a Mets fan growing up, but I thought Tom Seaver was the best pitcher in baseball. Sad news.
Sad indeed.
Mr. Seaver was the anchor of probably the most amazing World Championship ever — the 1969 New York Mets. The Mets were awful for most of the 1960s but because of a draft screw-up by the Atlanta Braves, Seaver became a Met.
Incredible pitching staff that included HOFer Nolan Ryan, Jerry Koosman, Gary Gentry and Tug McGraw out of the bullpen.
Was a great guy and one of th faces of baseball in the 1970s.
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Wow. Lots of new rules. Quick glance: I think I like them all.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/2019/03/14/mlb-new-rule-changes-roster-3-batter-minimum/3157226002/
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I don't like the 3 batter min. It alters the game too much.
I also don't like the Position Player non-pitching rule unless there are extra innings. What does it matter who pitches?
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Only thing missing is universal DH.
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I don't like the 3 batter min. It alters the game too much.
I also don't like the Position Player non-pitching rule unless there are extra innings. What does it matter who pitches?
I absolutely hate seeing a new pitcher for every batter late in games, but I would have preferred a 2 batter minimum.
Like the rest of the changes, though.
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I don't like the 3 batter min. It alters the game too much.
I also don't like the Position Player non-pitching rule unless there are extra innings. What does it matter who pitches?
Both are squarely aimed at limiting the # of pitchers that get used. Forces us back to more like the days when starters went 7+. Maybe pitching staffs will go back toward 10 or 11 and away from current 13.
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I absolutely hate seeing a new pitcher for every batter late in games, but I would have preferred a 2 batter minimum.
Like the rest of the changes, though.
That would be a pretty good compromise. Look, the way we were going, pretty soon they would bring a guy in for one key pitch to get a strikeout.
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Yost is probably happy. Seems in line with how he manages a bullpen.
I don’t like the change. I’d sacrifice some time so that strategy isn’t mandated like this. Saw a stat that the Brewers only had a pitcher face less than 2 batters 77 times. Cubs had it happen about twice that much. I think the impact on the Brewers will be a little overblown just based on the perception of our bullpen management.
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Get rid of the dh or force the nl to adopt it.
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Both are squarely aimed at limiting the # of pitchers that get used. Forces us back to more like the days when starters went 7+. Maybe pitching staffs will go back toward 10 or 11 and away from current 13.
My problem with it is that its a rules change that artificially lowers the overall quality of play, with the goal of mandating a specific style. The move from the old way of pitching to the new way occurred because it raised the total quality of pitching. This won't dramatically impact the time of games, which is the alleged reason for it. But it will significantly tilt the balance back toward hitters. I actually think baseball folks are more excited about this creating offense than they are with it speeding up games - but they can't admit that because it seems like blasphemy to purists.
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Don't like it at all, especially given that it takes effect next season which really screws up the roster make-ups short term. Would have much rathered some sort of minimum batters faced per pitcher in a season or something like that.
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Play ball!
Bumped into at least six MU fans wearing Marquette shirts today at Sloan Park for Cubs game. Average age north of 70. Weather could be better, only 60 degrees.
Not feeling overly optimistic about the game later today against the Redmen.
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That would be fun. We could hang out at political rallies, atheist events and such!
Better watch out for those panther ornaments
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Better watch out for those panther ornaments
Very relevant.
Do you like it when the neighbor's dog takes a dump in your front yard?
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So left handed journeymen relievers are going to be in trouble.....union is not going to like that I can guarantee you.
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So left handed journeymen relievers are going to be in trouble.....union is not going to like that I can guarantee you.
Union sacrificed them for some of the other concessions. 26th man on MLB rosters, no pitch clock and a commitment to negotiate.
I still don't see a path forward that avoids a lockout, though.
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Union sacrificed them for some of the other concessions. 26th man on MLB rosters, no pitch clock and a commitment to negotiate.
I still don't see a path forward that avoids a lockout, though.
Likely a strike because I think the owners are happy with the current CBA.
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Likely a strike because I think the owners are happy with the current CBA.
Yeah players are going to have to strike I think, I'm all for it and hope they win.
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Remind me about the timing of the CBA. My recollection is 2020 for a possible strike. Be good to know up front so I can not pay any attention that year.
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After the 2021 season.
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Union sacrificed them for some of the other concessions. 26th man on MLB rosters, no pitch clock and a commitment to negotiate.
I still don't see a path forward that avoids a lockout, though.
A friend of mine, her husband plays for the Rockies, they have been told in no uncertain terms to start saving money now....it is going to happen. He's young and doesn't make a ton compared to many of the others, so they are taking it seriously.
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Yeah players are going to have to strike I think, I'm all for it and hope they win.
For a sport that is already struggling to get a hold in certain age groups, I think it is a risky idea. They also are not factoring in the economic realities of where video is going and the cost side there. That is one of the reasons, in my opinion, why clubs were hesitant because they see the video revenues up in the air.
A major digital player is about to make a big splash here shortly, it will reinvigorate the sports rights temporarily and folks will say everything is great, but when they realize how much they have overspent through the contract and the dollars they will ultimately lose it could (can't predict the future) be the last big TV / video pay day for many of these leagues. Could. Many things in a state of flux on the revenue side which makes this all go round and round. Clubs don't want to dole out huge contracts at lengthy terms for players when they don't know where the dollars are coming from.
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I was thinking about MLB and all their attempts to speed up the game. Yet they seem to have missed the most obvious - wireless technology.
Why not have earpieces provided for all players? So, instead of the catcher spending time looking at the bench for what pitch to call and then spending more time relaying the sign to pitchers, why couldn't the manager relay the sign verbally to the P and C at the same time?
Also, why waste 5-10 minutes or more a game for the manager to slowly shuffle out to the mound for a conversation just to change pitchers? Or instead of shuffling slowly out, the pitching coach could have the pitcher step back off the mound to speak to him via wireless in half the time?
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I was thinking about MLB and all their attempts to speed up the game. Yet they seem to have missed the most obvious - wireless technology.
Why not have earpieces provided for all players? So, instead of the catcher spending time looking at the bench for what pitch to call and then spending more time relaying the sign to pitchers, why couldn't the manager relay the sign verbally to the P and C at the same time?
Also, why waste 5-10 minutes or more a game for the manager to slowly shuffle out to the mound for a conversation just to change pitchers? Or instead of shuffling slowly out, the pitching coach could have the pitcher step back off the mound to speak to him via wireless in half the time?
Practically, those slow shuffles are to give a pitcher extra time to warm up. People will fight that idea based on that strategic maneuver alone.
Then, you have to figure the old baseball mantras of mound conferences to break up play, confuse opposition, and calm down pitchers.
It’s clever solution but I don’t see many people buying into it
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I read that MLB is experimenting with a wireless watch for catchers to give signals to pitchers, who’d also have a wireless watch.
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I read that MLB is experimenting with a wireless watch for catchers to give signals to pitchers, who’d also have a wireless watch.
Cool. At least it’s a start.
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I read that MLB is experimenting with a wireless watch for catchers to give signals to pitchers, who’d also have a wireless watch.
*shakes head, taps watch*
*Catcher sends new signal*
Must see TV folks
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Trout stays a Halo....$430M for 12 years.
Greatest player I have seen in person play, spoiled here for sure. Going to suck when we move and won’t be able to watch him in person.
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Trout - 12 years, $430M. Two takeaways for me. First, that's still a "spit out my coffee when i saw it" amount of money. Second is that Trout really is every bit the low-key guy he seems to sign this now. I struggle to imagine, barring catastrophic injury, that he wouldn't have beat this in a free agency free for all. There are only 10 years of new money on this deal, as two of them cancel out the below market extension he signed in 2013. So really its a 10 year, $406M extension if my math is right. I think 10 years, $400M was the absolute minimum to be mentioned as a possible destination in 2020.
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Trout - 12 years, $430M. Two takeaways for me. First, that's still a "spit out my coffee when i saw it" amount of money. Second is that Trout really is every bit the low-key guy he seems to sign this now. I struggle to imagine, barring catastrophic injury, that he wouldn't have beat this in a free agency free for all. There are only 10 years of new money on this deal, as two of them cancel out the below market extension he signed in 2013. So really its a 10 year, $406M extension if my math is right. I think 10 years, $400M was the absolute minimum to be mentioned as a possible destination in 2020.
Takeaway #3 - THIS IS WHY YOU DO NOT MANIPULATE SERVICE TIME. If Trout was pissed at the Angels, there's no way he allows them to overwrite the remaining years on his below market deal as part of an extension. Instead, structuring the deal this way allowed the Angels to leverage their two years of control into stretching their AAV across 12 years while also reducing the new money.
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Trout - 12 years, $430M. Two takeaways for me. First, that's still a "spit out my coffee when i saw it" amount of money. Second is that Trout really is every bit the low-key guy he seems to sign this now. I struggle to imagine, barring catastrophic injury, that he wouldn't have beat this in a free agency free for all. There are only 10 years of new money on this deal, as two of them cancel out the below market extension he signed in 2013. So really its a 10 year, $406M extension if my math is right. I think 10 years, $400M was the absolute minimum to be mentioned as a possible destination in 2020.
He is not a guy seeking the limelight, that is for sure. We just did a small deal with for MLB Extra Innings using his photo image only, he is extremely reserved. He may open up more later in his career, but mostly a private person, definitely loves Orange County and with the money he makes he can be in the best part of the OC and what it offers which is pretty incredible for those with the means...which few have. A bubble, for sure.
Hopefully they can put some other players around him, certainly him staying will lead to others potentially saying they want to come, too.
And yes, I think he would have made more, and certainly cleared more because of the tax structure here.
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Takeaway #3 - THIS IS WHY YOU DO NOT MANIPULATE SERVICE TIME. If Trout was pissed at the Angels, there's no way he allows them to overwrite the remaining years on his below market deal as part of an extension. Instead, structuring the deal this way allowed the Angels to leverage their two years of control into stretching their AAV across 12 years while also reducing the new money.
Yes, to a degree. Definitely why the Halos did it at first a few years ago when they didn’t have to. They were trying to gain good will and in that instance made sense as he is a sure fire hall of famer.
But I also understand clubs using the rules. Some of the guys that are currently playing under their initial contracts with club control are really good, but still could go sideways with their play. We have this tendancy to say when players are “screwed” they should get theirs, but when it goes the other way and a player stinks we rarely are saying players should give money back. Ends up being a one way street.
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Angels CF Mike Trout is "finalizing the largest contract in professional sports history," a 12-year deal worth more than $430M that will "smash previous records," according to sources cited by Jeff Passan of ESPN.com. Trout will receive an average of nearly $36M a year, topping D-backs P Zack Greinke's previous record average of $34.4M. The Angels' "bustling farm system" and the ability for Owner Arte Moreno to parlay a $3B local TV deal into "higher payrolls gave Trout enough security to lock himself into a deal through his age-38 season" (ESPN.com, 3/19). In L.A., Torres & Digiovanna note Trout's deal, which has "no opt-outs," would keep him in Anaheim through '30. It would net Trout more money than Phillies RF Bryce Harper, who earlier in March signed a 13-year, $330M contract -- a deal that was then the "most lucrative in baseball history" (LATIMES.com, 3/19). The contract "does include a full no-trade clause" (DAILYNEWS.com, 3/19). Keeping Trout will cost Moreno "more than twice as much as the $184 million he paid for the entire franchise in 2003" (WASHINGTONPOST.com, 3/19).
WORTH THIS KIND OF MONEY? ESPN's Max Kellerman believes Trout deserves the record contract, saying, “We may be watching the greatest player in the history of baseball.” ESPN's Stephen A. Smith: "I challenge you to find anyone that says he's not worth it. He's that great" ("First Take," ESPN, 3/19).NBCSPORTS.com's Craig Calcaterra writes it is "hard to argue" that Trout is "not worth it." Calcaterra: "If Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays was around today, what would they make? That’s who Mike Trout is" (NBCSPORTS.com, 3/19). USA TODAY's Ted Berg writes the Angels actually are getting a "massive bargain," as it keep Trout with the team "for the remainder of a career that might well wind up among the greatest of all time" (USATODAY.com, 3/19). MLB Network's Dan Plesac: "If there’s an athlete that’s deserves this kind of compensation .... THIS IS THE GUY" (TWITTER.com, 3/19). However, ESPN’s Jon Weiner said, "That’s a lot of money to spend for a guy who's never won a playoff series and a guy that you wouldn't know if he was sitting on your lap in the studio right now." The Miami Herald’s Greg Cote said Trout "could win the Triple Crown and be overpaid." Cote: "The contract is so ridiculous. There's literally nothing he can do to live up to that contract" (“The Dan Le Batard Show,” ESPN Radio, 3/19).
TWITTER REAX: MLB.com's Mike Petriello wrote, "The thing about Mike Trout is that he's incredible and that he's getting NEARLY HALF A BILLION DOLLARS is actually very deserved and cool." NBC SPORTS' Paul Pabst: "This is so Mike Trout. No build up. No drama. No tour. Sign a lifetime deal at 10am on a Tuesday." ESPN's Buster Olney: "The Angels are Millville West for Mike Trout. He knows the folks there, he knows they appreciate and care about him, and he's never been one to look for a better, bigger deal elsewhere." ESPN's Alden Gonzalez: "Trout truly likes playing for the Angels. He had no interest in all the hoopla that would have come with playing close to home on the Phillies." Philadelphia-based WIP-FM's Eliot Shorr-Parks: "This Mike Trout contract really highlights what a steal Bryce Harper’s contract was for Phillies." NBC Sports Washington's Grant Paulsen: "Trout's a better player with a better resume than Bryce Harper, so he deserves more money. But if he does sign for 12/430 ... it will make Bryce Harper's contract and offseason look way worse."
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So much for the California tax thing having influence
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So much for the California tax thing having influence
So much for reading comprehension....it will effect some, not all.
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Michael Fulmer likely needs Tommy John surgery.
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Now he'll have plenty of money to get his son or daughter onto the USC water polo team!
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So much for reading comprehension....it will effect some, not all.
Oh, I comprehended. I just like making inane comments about one-off situations
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NBC Sports Washington's Grant Paulsen: "Trout's a better player with a better resume than Bryce Harper, so he deserves more money. But if he does sign for 12/430 ... it will make Bryce Harper's contract and offseason look way worse."
I don't think it does. I don't think Harper is particularly close to Trout as a player.
Trout - 27 yrs old, 8 seasons, 4673 PA, 64.3 WAR
Harper - 26 yrs old, 7 seasons, 3957 PA, 27.4 WAR
Plus Harper, despite being a year younger, is seeing his defense fade faster. I think if one of those contracts is fair, the other one is too.
As a Red Sox fan, I think this means Betts (26 yrs old, 5 seasons, 2923 PA, 35.2 WAR) definitely goes free agent, because the Red Sox will now have to offer more than Harper got to sign him ahead of free agency.
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Trout's contract is roughly 10 times what Carl Pohlad paid to buy the Twinkies in 1984!
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I don't think it does. I don't think Harper is particularly close to Trout as a player.
Trout - 27 yrs old, 8 seasons, 4673 PA, 64.3 WAR
Harper - 26 yrs old, 7 seasons, 3957 PA, 27.4 WAR
Plus Harper, despite being a year younger, is seeing his defense fade faster. I think if one of those contracts is fair, the other one is too.
As a Red Sox fan, I think this means Betts (26 yrs old, 5 seasons, 2923 PA, 35.2 WAR) definitely goes free agent, because the Red Sox will now have to offer more than Harper got to sign him ahead of free agency.
Trout - 7 full seasons 63.8 WAR
Mantle - 7 full seasons 60.1 WAR - Would probably be ahead of Trout without the knee injury.
First time I saw Trout play, one name came to mind. Easy to see why. Trout will be in the running for GOAT. Right now, it is Ruth and everyone else. Without tearing up his knee as a 19 year old, (remember, surgical procedures were nowhere near where they are now) it would be Ruth/Mantle and everyone else. That's the kind of company Trout is in.
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Trout - 7 full seasons 63.8 WAR
Mantle - 7 full seasons 60.1 WAR - Would probably be ahead of Trout without the knee injury.
First time I saw Trout play, one name came to mind. Easy to see why. Trout will be in the running for GOAT. Right now, it is Ruth and everyone else. Without tearing up his knee as a 19 year old, (remember, surgical procedures were nowhere near where they are now) it would be Ruth/Mantle and everyone else. That's the kind of company Trout is in.
Good point on Mantle injury. I would also say guys just take care of themselves better today due to the knowledge and money at stake. Mantle was a drinker, Trout from all reports doesn't touch the stuff.
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Trout stays a Halo....$430M for 12 years.
Greatest player I have seen in person play, spoiled here for sure. Going to suck when we move and won’t be able to watch him in person.
Artie Moreno strikes again.
This is the idiot who gave Albert Pujols the keys to the kingdom. All Pujols did was his best imitation of a .265 hitter.
Way to go Artie!
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Artie Moreno strikes again.
This is the idiot who gave Albert Pujols the keys to the kingdom. All Pujols did was his best imitation of a .265 hitter.
Way to go Artie!
Maybe, as a Halos fan we look at this one differently. Albert was on the downslide when signed. Trout hasn't shown anything of that kind....yet. They knew when they got Pujols he had 3 or 4 decent years ahead, they were able to get the best record in baseball with him for one year, but ran into the Royals insane run. Moreno probably felt he would have been burned at the stake if he lost Trout.
That's what I am telling myself anyway.
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Trout’s main residence is New Jersey, if it was Calif he would have received less than half of his salary.
So apparently it does matter as these guys still choose to legally be elsewhere for primary residence. If I recall, you have to live more than 185 days in one state. Jock tax also comes into play, but this is why so many golfers live in Florida as primary residence.
http://fortune.com/2019/03/19/mike-trout-extension-contract-angels/
No idea if true, trusting journalists here
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He could have received $650M some are saying. Congratulations on keeping your guy. You need to improve your spring training stadium. Showing its age compared to all the new parks.
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Good point on Mantle injury. I would also say guys just take care of themselves better today due to the knowledge and money at stake. Mantle was a drinker, Trout from all reports doesn't touch the stuff.
The Babe was known to enjoy the occasional hot dog and beer too.
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Just saw on TV: average of $67,000 an at-bat. Ridiculous.
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No idea if true, trusting journalists here
Typical chicos pot-shot at "journalists." Here's what article says:
If Trout was a California resident, noted CPA Robert Raiola on Twitter, he would pocket less than half of the contract’s amount, netting $214 million once he had paid his state and federal income taxes.
In other words, the journalist (as is usually the case) is only the messenger. In this instance, Fortune was just reporting what a CPA said.
So, in fact, you should have said, "No idea if true, trusting a CPA here." But you wouldn't have been chicos if you said that.
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He could have received $650M some are saying. Congratulations on keeping your guy. You need to improve your spring training stadium. Showing its age compared to all the new parks.
Maybe sign a pitcher, too. Tyler Skaggs is the Angels' Opening Day starter.
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Maybe sign a pitcher, too. Tyler Skaggs is the Angels' Opening Day starter.
It's Trevor Cahill. But point stands.
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Maybe sign a pitcher, too. Tyler Skaggs is the Angels' Opening Day starter.
I see a Breakdown Dead Ahead.
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Typical chicos pot-shot at "journalists." Here's what article says:
If Trout was a California resident, noted CPA Robert Raiola on Twitter, he would pocket less than half of the contract’s amount, netting $214 million once he had paid his state and federal income taxes.
In other words, the journalist (as is usually the case) is only the messenger. In this instance, Fortune was just reporting what a CPA said.
So, in fact, you should have said, "No idea if true, trusting a CPA here." But you wouldn't have been chicos if you said that.
The journalist chose to use the CPA’s information and push it further to the readers. Nowhere in the article was their any skepticism of whether the cpa is right or wrong, it is assumed it is right because the journalist has put it out there as fact.
I’m old enough to remember when journalists would validate first before publishing, or they would give an alternative option if there was a question on the merits. That’s not the case here, so me being the kind and caring person I am, I am doing the warning for the readers that the journalist who wrote the article and decided to effectively endorse the the CPA’s position may not be right....I don’t know....will leave it to the experts to decide.
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Just saw on TV: average of $67,000 an at-bat. Ridiculous.
At bats that I actually pay attention to as do many. Think about all the guys making $20k per at bat that no one gives a damn about because they aren’t that compelling.
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Maybe sign a pitcher, too. Tyler Skaggs is the Angels' Opening Day starter.
We have lost more guys to Tommy John surgery than any other team the last 10 years. It has been brutal. Our opening day starter shut down two weeks ago for rehab. A lot of arm troubles for our guys.
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The journalist chose to use the CPA’s information and push it further to the readers. Nowhere in the article was their any skepticism of whether the cpa is right or wrong, it is assumed it is right because the journalist has put it out there as fact.
I’m old enough to remember when journalists would validate first before publishing, or they would give an alternative option if there was a question on the merits. That’s not the case here, so me being the kind and caring person I am, I am doing the warning for the readers that the journalist who wrote the article and decided to effectively endorse the the CPA’s position may not be right....I don’t know....will leave it to the experts to decide.
Attaboy. Don't admit that you were wrong to go after the messenger (aka "the enemy of the people") rather than the source.
chicos! chicos! chicos!
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We have lost more guys to Tommy John surgery than any other team the last 10 years. It has been brutal. Our opening day starter shut down two weeks ago for rehab. A lot of arm troubles for our guys.
The Halos using the same mound dirt as Santa Anita?
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Attaboy. Don't admit that you were wrong to go after the messenger (aka "the enemy of the people") rather than the source.
chicos! chicos! chicos!
The irony coming from you, especially.
Not the enemy of the people, at least not the ones that stick to facts, are objective and don’t have an agenda. I enjoyed reading the last week about stories purposely spiked by journalists because they thought it would hurt the person they were writing about....their horse in the race...ahh, nothing like objective and bringing truth to the peeps. “We will decide what you get to learn about and if there is something that we know to be truthful but damaging and against what we stand for and may hurt the image of our annoited ones, well you don’t get to learn about it”. Ah yes, the gatekeepers we should trust, aye.
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The Halos using the same mound dirt as Santa Anita?
No kidding, bad year over there for the ponies. We have a race track 5 miles from us, and nothing close to the damage going on at Santa Anita. Tragic
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The irony coming from you, especially.
Not the enemy of the people, at least not the ones that stick to facts, are objective and don’t have an agenda. I enjoyed reading the last week about stories purposely spiked by journalists because they thought it would hurt the person they were writing about....their horse in the race...ahh, nothing like objective and bringing truth to the peeps. “We will decide what you get to learn about and if there is something that we know to be truthful but damaging and against what we stand for and may hurt the image of our annoited ones, well you don’t get to learn about it”. Ah yes, the gatekeepers we should trust, aye.
Attaboy.
The only gatekeeper anybody should trust is chicos.
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Interesting on the Sox/Jimenez deal, roll of the dice obviously on a player who's never played in MLB. Jimenez loses a year of free agency and there's not going to be any arbitration to go through. If he's a superstar, which I certainly hope he will be, the last few years of the deal will be incredibly club friendly. Since their payroll is next to nothing the next two years, it really doesn't hurt them.
If nothing else, no other team in MLB is better at locking up their young players on team friendly deals than the Sox, it's actually pretty incredible the deals they've negotiated over the last few years with their (albeit small) good players.
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Interesting on the Sox/Jimenez deal, roll of the dice obviously on a player who's never played in MLB. Jimenez loses a year of free agency and there's not going to be any arbitration to go through. If he's a superstar, which I certainly hope he will be, the last few years of the deal will be incredibly club friendly. Since their payroll is next to nothing the next two years, it really doesn't hurt them.
If nothing else, no other team in MLB is better at locking up their young players on team friendly deals than the Sox, it's actually pretty incredible the deals they've negotiated over the last few years with their (albeit small) good players.
Love the idea they can bring Eloy up immediately without the BS of having to hold him down for the beginning of the year.
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Maybe, as a Halos fan we look at this one differently. Albert was on the downslide when signed. Trout hasn't shown anything of that kind....yet. They knew when they got Pujols he had 3 or 4 decent years ahead, they were able to get the best record in baseball with him for one year, but ran into the Royals insane run. Moreno probably felt he would have been burned at the stake if he lost Trout.
That's what I am telling myself anyway.
If that was the case for Pujols, why did they sign him for deal that makes Bobby Bonilla's Mets deal look like a short-termer.
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If that was the case for Pujols, why did they sign him for deal that makes Bobby Bonilla's Mets deal look like a short-termer.
??? Not sure I am following.
Pujols has three more years. Bonilla is being paid for many more years, ends in 2035.
Yes, aware that Pujols has a 10 year personal services deal after he retires, but that doesn’t count toward luxury tax and he has plenty of good Will out here with his charity, etc....having future hall of gamers on the payroll that are quality human beings isn’t the worst thing in the world.
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He could have received $650M some are saying. Congratulations on keeping your guy. You need to improve your spring training stadium. Showing its age compared to all the new parks.
Talk amongst yourself.
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Ichiro retires after becoming oldest al player to start on opening day
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Talk amongst yourself.
Can we bring Billy and all the other incorrectly labeled posters in, too?
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I take my Rotisserie league very, very seriously, and I'm happy about my draft but worried about my OF. I also have below-average RP, but spend April/May being a vulture until bullpens settle down.
C: Sanchez
1B: Goldschmidt
2B: Albies
3B: Rendon
SS: Bregman
OF: Puig
OF: Castellanos
OF: Pollock
UTL: Segura
UTL: Encarnacion
SP: Scherzer
SP: Snell
SP: Mikolas
SP: Castillo
SP: Quintana
RP: Hicks
RP: Strop
RP: Barnes
Bench: Brantley (OF), Peraza (SS), Moustakas (3B), Moncada (2B)
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Still amazed that Keuchel isn't signed. It's not like there's a superabundence of SPs floating around the show.
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Still amazed that Keuchel isn't signed. It's not like there's a superabundence of SPs floating around the show.
He’s waiting for 100 mil. Brewers offered him about 40, unfortunately he didn’t bite.
1st year was about 5 mil
2nd was 7mil
3 was 27 mil
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Play ball!
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I take my Rotisserie league very, very seriously, and I'm happy about my draft but worried about my OF. I also have below-average RP, but spend April/May being a vulture until bullpens settle down.
C: Sanchez
1B: Goldschmidt
2B: Albies
3B: Rendon
SS: Bregman
OF: Puig
OF: Castellanos
OF: Pollock
UTL: Segura
UTL: Encarnacion
SP: Scherzer
SP: Snell
SP: Mikolas
SP: Castillo
SP: Quintana
RP: Hicks
RP: Strop
RP: Barnes
Bench: Brantley (OF), Peraza (SS), Moustakas (3B), Moncada (2B)
You are a little light on speed. Especially with Peraza and Moncada on the bench.
You right about the pen. Most unsettled year I have seen in a long time for closers. Stay alert and you’ll be able to grab a couple guys to help you out.
If you're in a 10 team league, you may be a little light on power: could be OK there if it’s 12 teams.
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You are a little light on speed. Especially with Persia and Moncada on the bench.
You right about the pen. Most unsettled year I have seen in a long time for closers. Stay alert and you’ll be able to grab a couple guys to help you out.
If your in a 10 team league, you may be a little light on power: could be OK there if it’s 12 teams.
Yeah, not sure how deep your league is and whether you use OBP or AVG, but the areas you're light should hopefully also be the easiest to find, relatively speaking. Runs and steals via guys that hit early in the order in fine enough lineups and bust up their platoons can pop up out of nowhere the first couple of weeks - Leonys Martin, Jesse Winker, Brandon Nimmo (all OFs). I think Segura is going to be a stat monster at the top of that lineup. If your closers end up actually closing they'll be awesome because they all play for teams that could win 95 games. If they don't you can just cut bait and balance closers on bad teams/injury replacements and a high K/low WHIP innings middle reliever to balance out Castillo and Quintana, who will light your ratios on fire from time to time.
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You are a little light on speed. Especially with Peraza and Moncada on the bench.
If your in a 10 team league, you may be a little light on power: could be OK there if it’s 12 teams.
It's only 10 teams. And you're correct.
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Yeah, not sure how deep your league is and whether you use OBP or AVG, but the areas you're light should hopefully also be the easiest to find, relatively speaking. Runs and steals via guys that hit early in the order in fine enough lineups and bust up their platoons can pop up out of nowhere the first couple of weeks - Leonys Martin, Jesse Winker, Brandon Nimmo (all OFs). I think Segura is going to be a stat monster at the top of that lineup. If your closers end up actually closing they'll be awesome because they all play for teams that could win 95 games. If they don't you can just cut bait and balance closers on bad teams/injury replacements and a high K/low WHIP innings middle reliever to balance out Castillo and Quintana, who will light your ratios on fire from time to time.
I though about mentioning that, but Scherzer, Snell, and Mikolas are such WHIP monsters, I think he will be OK.
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I though about mentioning that, but Scherzer, Snell, and Mikolas are such WHIP monsters, I think he will be OK.
That's true. And everyone but Mikolas strikes out a ton of dudes, so there's good balance without sacrificing Ks. Its a well balanced staff.
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Who signs Keuchel ?
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Who signs Keuchel ?
I think it's SD or ATL.
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Who signs Keuchel ?
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think he either (i) signs a weird, long term deal around the trade deadline as teams realize all he'll cost is money or (ii) sits the whole year. With his injury history, his diminishing K/9 and the fact that he doesn't throw very hard, I think the gap is just too wide between what he wants and what teams are looking for when they pay for pitching. He's got the look of a guy who would finish even a 4 year deal as a back end innings eater - but he can't stay healthy. Plus, now he's looking at simulated games to ramp up before you can actually deploy him, and the whole thing just gets too complicated for anyone to invest real money in.
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WHIP monsters
Interestingly, that's the name of the dominatrix group Benny used to employ.
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He’s waiting for 100 mil. Brewers offered him about 40, unfortunately he didn’t bite.
1st year was about 5 mil
2nd was 7mil
3 was 27 mil
IF this is true, it says a lot about the Brewers current payroll situation. The big Grandal contract (and Moustakas to a lesser extent) is hamstringing them, but only for one year. Moustakas will be replaced by a much cheaper Hiura next year.
Brewers need this guy too. I love Woodruff, Peralta, and Burnes, but moving all of them to the rotation leaves the middle part of the bullpen wide open. Would rather see one of them shift back to the bridge guy to get to Hader (and Jeffress/Knebel, if when they return).
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IF this is true, it says a lot about the Brewers current payroll situation. The big Grandal contract (and Moustakas to a lesser extent) is hamstringing them, but only for one year. Moustakas will be replaced by a much cheaper Hiura next year.
Brewers need this guy too. I love Woodruff, Peralta, and Burnes, but moving all of them to the rotation leaves the middle part of the bullpen wide open. Would rather see one of them shift back to the bridge guy to get to Hader (and Jeffress/Knebel, if when they return).
They're not hamstrung saveO. Stearns wants some ammo available at the trading deadline. He's a master at getting max production for the dollar. He's not going to over commit to anything. And perhaps just as importantly, he's willing to walk away from a bad decision (Schoop).
On the pitching front, let's consider the possibility that Anderson and Nelson form the backbone of the middle relief corp for '19. Both can be multiple innings guys effectively pitching at least once through the batting order. I'm a proponent of asking Woody, Peralta and Burnes to step up in this next phase in their development. We want their best years to be low priced and for the Crew.
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He’s waiting for 100 mil. Brewers offered him about 40, unfortunately he didn’t bite.
1st year was about 5 mil
2nd was 7mil
3 was 27 mil
If this is true, I think its a blessing in disguise he turned it down. I like Kimbrel a lot, but I don't want to commit the payroll flexibility of Braun's first year off the books for Kimbrel this far in advance. Especially if Knebel's TJ is a big reason for the move.
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Damn. Tommy John surgery confirmed. Probably the right decision.
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Damn. Tommy John surgery confirmed. Probably the right decision.
That's another $100 royalty for Tommy John. No wonder he's rich!
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Juiced ball this year?
Or should I say re-juiced?
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Nice immaculate inning save.
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Nice immaculate inning save.
Throwing only fastballs. Only one was even touched. Dude is amazing. I hope Couns uses his best weapon (maybe except Yeli) carefully.
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Alex Wilson looked good last night too. I think he’s got a decent track record. Maybe a nice reliable guy to take over for Knebel. I’m still going to hold out hope for Kimbrel until he signs elsewhere.
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C’mon. Again?
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Is the MVP race over?
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;D This Yelich kid might end up being okay.
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Is the MVP race over?
Yellich or Hader? :)
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Back up the Brinks truck please
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You guys are still using the offseason thread.
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You guys are still using the offseason thread.
Couldn’t find the pissing match so thought it had been merged. My bad if I missed it.
Also saw a stat that Hader has thrown 30 pitches this year, all fastballs. Batters have swung at 22 of them, 18 swing and miss, 2 foul, and 2 in play. Insane.
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;D This Yelich kid might end up being okay.
Yeah if he keeps working on it, the trade may payoff yet