[Paint Touches] Should Marquette Redshirt Somebody?

[NotAnAlum]

I do think the staff needs to be concerned about this.  12 players who think they are good enough to "play now" is simply too many mouths to feed.  Someone is going to be disappointed and its likely going to be a wing.  If you do nothing and expect things to work themselves out you are likely to end up losing a guy the following year who you have 1 or 2 years invested in to transfer.  In doing so you miss out on the final most productive years.
That said this decision does not need to be made until Nov 6th.  So I would assume that all of the Sophs are under consideration as red shirt candidates for the next 4 weeks.  The next 4 weeks of practice will tell a lot.  We'll see how good Bailey is, how well the Hausers are coming back from injury, what kind of an option Joey or Ike are as the 3rd center etc.
This is the reason Wojo gets paid the big bucks.  He needs to determine where the team is strongest and then convince the player he choses to accept the redshirt

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Certainly a good problem to have.

I don't think Cain would go for a red-shirt, and I don't blame him.

Only guy that makes sense to me is Greg.  I just don't see the minutes for him.  We are a little thin at guard, sure, but I think Markus and Chartouney are going to play most of the minutes at the 1 and 2, and guys like Sacar, Bailey, Cain and even Sam could fill in at the 2 while Markus is running point.  I just don't think Greg will play much, barring injury.  Problem is, the depth at guard doesn't get any better for Greg next season either with McEwen coming in.  I think Greg is the best redshirt option, because even though he seems to love MU, he looks to me like a guy that could see limited minutes in meaningful games and see the writing on the wall for next season as well. A red-shirt could avoid that scenario. That said, I don't see it happening, and I don't see Greg wanting it.

At the end of the day, I just think we're looking at something like this minutes-wise:

PG: Chartouney (25), Markus (10), Greg (5)
SG: Markus (20), Sacar (15), Cain (5)
SF: Sam (25), Cain (10), Bailey (5)
PF: Morrow (25), Sam (5), Joey (5), Bailey (5)
C: John (15), Heldt (15), Joey (10)

Eke: Garbage time only

Totals:
Markus: 30
Sam: 30
Morrow: 25
Chartouney: 25
Sacar: 15
Theo: 15
Heldt: 15
Joey: 15
Cain: 15
Bailey: 10
Greg: 5
Ike: Garbage time only

Going to be tough for all of Cain, Bailey and Greg to find minutes. And honestly, I think 30 minutes for both Markus and Sam is a low estimate.  Sure, we'll have the depth to let them rest more in cupcakes, and not super competitive games, but those guys are playing big minutes in the big contests. 

[DCHoopster]

After watching Bailey, I would think he gets 20 minutes or more.  Really will depend once a real game is played, it is one thing to be a good practice player, it is another
to be a good player when the lights are on.

[Galway Eagle]

Certainly a good problem to have.

I don't think Cain would go for a red-shirt, and I don't blame him.

Only guy that makes sense to me is Greg.  I just don't see the minutes for him.  We are a little thin at guard, sure, but I think Markus and Chartouney are going to play most of the minutes at the 1 and 2, and guys like Sacar, Bailey, Cain and even Sam could fill in at the 2 while Markus is running point.  I just don't think Greg will play much, barring injury.  Problem is, the depth at guard doesn't get any better for Greg next season either with McEwen coming in.  I think Greg is the best redshirt option, because even though he seems to love MU, he looks to me like a guy that could see limited minutes in meaningful games and see the writing on the wall for next season as well. A red-shirt could avoid that scenario. That said, I don't see it happening, and I don't see Greg wanting it.

At the end of the day, I just think we're looking at something like this minutes-wise:

PG: Chartouney (25), Markus (10), Greg (5)
SG: Markus (20), Sacar (15), Cain (5)
SF: Sam (25), Cain (10), Bailey (5)
PF: Morrow (25), Sam (5), Joey (5), Bailey (5)
C: John (15), Heldt (15), Joey (10)

Eke: Garbage time only

Totals:
Markus: 30
Sam: 30
Morrow: 25
Chartouney: 25
Sacar: 15
Theo: 15
Heldt: 15
Joey: 15
Cain: 15
Bailey: 10
Greg: 5
Ike: Garbage time only

Going to be tough for all of Cain, Bailey and Greg to find minutes. And honestly, I think 30 minutes for both Markus and Sam is a low estimate.  Sure, we'll have the depth to let them rest more in cupcakes, and not super competitive games, but those guys are playing big minutes in the big contests.

Sort of agree though I think Morrow May get a couple less. I think unless wojo plans on running at the pace of the Steve Nash Suns I think it's a bit jammed for Greg to get minutes

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Sort of agree though I think Morrow May get a couple less. I think unless wojo plans on running at the pace of the Steve Nash Suns I think it's a bit jammed for Greg to get minutes

Morrow is better than you think he is if he you believe he's playing less than 25 minutes. 

[Galway Eagle]

Morrow is better than you think he is if he you believe he's playing less than 25 minutes.

On the contrary, I may be higher than most on morrow. I'm just not sure where he fits. He was not the fastest kid at Nebraska, and has zero outside shot. If this was five or so years ago I could see him being a classic BE bruiser but in wojos system I don't see the fit.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

On the contrary, I may be higher than most on morrow. I'm just not sure where he fits. He was not the fastest kid at Nebraska, and has zero outside shot. If this was five or so years ago I could see him being a classic BE bruiser but in wojos system I don't see the fit.

He fits at the 4.  He's a back to the basket rebounding 4.  With Markus and Sam on the court, we don't really need a PF that plays on the perimeter.  We need a banger that can play defense, pull down rebound and finish in the paint. 

I could see Morrow playing some post with a more of a 4 out / 1 in type offense at times, but I do think we'll see a lot of Morrow + Heldt/Theo combos.  A little different than past Wojo teams, yes, but that doesn't mean he won't "fit". 

[GGGG]

I do think the staff needs to be concerned about this.  12 players who think they are good enough to "play now" is simply too many mouths to feed.  Someone is going to be disappointed and its likely going to be a wing.  If you do nothing and expect things to work themselves out you are likely to end up losing a guy the following year who you have 1 or 2 years invested in to transfer.  In doing so you miss out on the final most productive years.
That said this decision does not need to be made until Nov 6th.  So I would assume that all of the Sophs are under consideration as red shirt candidates for the next 4 weeks.  The next 4 weeks of practice will tell a lot.  We'll see how good Bailey is, how well the Hausers are coming back from injury, what kind of an option Joey or Ike are as the 3rd center etc.
This is the reason Wojo gets paid the big bucks.  He needs to determine where the team is strongest and then convince the player he choses to accept the redshirt

I am not suggesting that MU "do nothing."  I am suggesting that Wojo has honest discussions with players, their roles and how they can earn more playing time.  I also expect him to discuss a vision of how they fit within the program not only this year, but also in future years.

If a player is unhappy because of playing time this year and doesn't either believe in the future outlined for him, or is just not satisfied at all, they can transfer and I really won't care.  Life goes on.

But I don't think you redshirt productive players.  The only player who I think isn't going to be productive this year is Ike, and he's already redshirted.  A case can be made for all 11 of the others, and I can see situations where each can grow and find a role on this team as the season wears on.  Making a decision by November 6 is still too soon IMO.

[skianth16]

Totals:
Markus: 30
Sam: 30
Morrow: 25
Chartouney: 25
Sacar: 15
Theo: 15
Heldt: 15
Joey: 15
Cain: 15
Bailey: 10
Greg: 5
Ike: Garbage time only

I doubt we'll see Sacar drop from 25-30 minutes a game all the way down to 15. He's probably still the best on ball defender on the team, and he's one of our better options at creating his own shot. Plus, this will be his fourth year in the program, so he'll be more comfortable with the system than any of the newcomers.

I honestly don't know how I'd reallocate the minutes, but I think Sacar has to get at least 20, maybe closer to 25. I think we're all a little high on the potential of the new guys right now, but my best guess is that a couple of them will take some time to develop into solid contributors.

[brewcity77]

Anyone asking the "don't redshirt someone because what if X gets injured?" question, they just take the redshirt off and play them. Just like Bucky did with Reuvers last year. A redshirt isn't definitive until they get through the season. You can take it off at any time.

[GGGG]

Anyone asking the "don't redshirt someone because what if X gets injured?" question, they just take the redshirt off and play them. Just like Bucky did with Reuvers last year. A redshirt isn't definitive until they get through the season. You can take it off at any time.

Yeah but Reuvers dropped the redshirt in early December.  What if the injury occurs in late January?  I would rather have a player fully engaged then one that has to change up a routine and expected to be a contributor.

[barfolomew]

Anyone asking the "don't redshirt someone because what if X gets injured?" question, they just take the redshirt off and play them. Just like Bucky did with Reuvers last year. A redshirt isn't definitive until they get through the season. You can take it off at any time.

I would like to see a tradition started where we burn a redshirt every year.
Like right around mid-December or so.

[TheyWereCones]

Certainly a good problem to have.

I don't think Cain would go for a red-shirt, and I don't blame him.

Only guy that makes sense to me is Greg.  I just don't see the minutes for him.  We are a little thin at guard, sure, but I think Markus and Chartouney are going to play most of the minutes at the 1 and 2, and guys like Sacar, Bailey, Cain and even Sam could fill in at the 2 while Markus is running point.  I just don't think Greg will play much, barring injury.  Problem is, the depth at guard doesn't get any better for Greg next season either with McEwen coming in.  I think Greg is the best redshirt option, because even though he seems to love MU, he looks to me like a guy that could see limited minutes in meaningful games and see the writing on the wall for next season as well. A red-shirt could avoid that scenario. That said, I don't see it happening, and I don't see Greg wanting it.

At the end of the day, I just think we're looking at something like this minutes-wise:

PG: Chartouney (25), Markus (10), Greg (5)
SG: Markus (20), Sacar (15), Cain (5)
SF: Sam (25), Cain (10), Bailey (5)
PF: Morrow (25), Sam (5), Joey (5), Bailey (5)
C: John (15), Heldt (15), Joey (10)

Eke: Garbage time only

Totals:
Markus: 30
Sam: 30
Morrow: 25
Chartouney: 25
Sacar: 15
Theo: 15
Heldt: 15
Joey: 15
Cain: 15
Bailey: 10
Greg: 5
Ike: Garbage time only

Going to be tough for all of Cain, Bailey and Greg to find minutes. And honestly, I think 30 minutes for both Markus and Sam is a low estimate.  Sure, we'll have the depth to let them rest more in cupcakes, and not super competitive games, but those guys are playing big minutes in the big contests.

My best guess would be to adjust it like this:

PG: Chartouney (20), Markus (20)
SG: Markus (10), Sacar (20), Greg (10)
SF: Sam (10), Cain (15), Bailey (15)
PF: Morrow (15), Sam (15), Joey (10)
C: John (15), Heldt (15), Morrow (10)

Eke - As they can fit him in.  He will get more time once Heldt graduates.

[nyg]

I doubt we'll see Sacar drop from 25-30 minutes a game all the way down to 15. He's probably still the best on ball defender on the team, and he's one of our better options at creating his own shot. Plus, this will be his fourth year in the program, so he'll be more comfortable with the system than any of the newcomers.

I honestly don't know how I'd reallocate the minutes, but I think Sacar has to get at least 20, maybe closer to 25. I think we're all a little high on the potential of the new guys right now, but my best guess is that a couple of them will take some time to develop into solid contributors.

Sacar got a lot of minutes last year because he was basically the only option.  When he went out, Cain took his spot, along with resting Sam, who was playing the #4. It was a three man rotation for two positions. This years team has added Joey, Morrow and Bailey to go along with them, leaving a five man rotation for two spots, so I think his minutes will subside somewhat. If Sacar has substantially approved his ball handling/dribbling skills, he would be a great option to back up Howard and JC. I hope so, he is very good defensively. 

[Marcus92]

I don't think Wojo wants anyone playing more than 30 minutes a game. Somewhere around 25 is probably ideal for the top of the rotation -- ensuring they can go all-out whenever they're on the court, while also giving them enough rest.

Right now, I'd assume that Sam, Markus and Joseph (in that order) will be at that 25 mpg level. Followed by Sacar, Jamal and Ed (three more proven players) playing about 20 mpg. Maybe it's 18 mpg, maybe it's 22 mpg. After that, it's anybody's guess.

As our top recruit, it's hard to imagine Joey getting any less than 15 mpg -- and even that feels low to me. I'm encouraged by what I saw from Brendan at the open practice, but don't know what that will translate into in terms of minutes. Ed, Theo and Matt may turn out to be basically interchangeable.

This is, of course, a good problem to have. Many of our past transfers have been players who weren't ready to compete at the highest level: Traci Carter, Sandy Cohen, Wally Ellenson, John Dawson. Now the cupboard is fully stocked with Big East talent. Competition during the next month of practice will decide who earns court time.

[Galway Eagle]

I don't think Wojo wants anyone playing more than 30 minutes a game. Somewhere around 25 is probably ideal for the top of the rotation -- ensuring they can go all-out whenever they're on the court, while also giving them enough rest.

Right now, I'd assume that Sam, Markus and Joseph (in that order) will be at that 25 mpg level. Followed by Sacar, Jamal and Ed (three more proven players) playing about 20 mpg. Maybe it's 18 mpg, maybe it's 22 mpg. After that, it's anybody's guess.

As our top recruit, it's hard to imagine Joey getting any less than 15 mpg -- and even that feels low to me. I'm encouraged by what I saw from Brendan at the open practice, but don't know what that will translate into in terms of minutes. Ed, Theo and Matt may turn out to be basically interchangeable.

This is, of course, a good problem to have. Many of our past transfers have been players who weren't ready to compete at the highest level: Traci Carter, Sandy Cohen, Wally Ellenson, John Dawson. Now the cupboard is fully stocked with Big East talent. Competition during the next month of practice will decide who earns court time.

Thought the consensus was traci could've contributed but writing was on the wall when he saw Markus play

[Its DJOver]

Thought the consensus was traci could've contributed but writing was on the wall when he saw Markus play

If Markus' PG skills were enough to scare Traci, would he really have made much of an impact anyway?

[Galway Eagle]

If Markus' PG skills were enough to scare Traci, would he really have made much of an impact anyway?

Don't know. I personally think he could've. Im not about to find his numbers against every major conference opponent but I imagine they weren't terrible for a freshman and first semester sophomore that wasn't a ranked recruit.

[GGGG]

Don't know. I personally think he could've. Im not about to find his numbers against every major conference opponent but I imagine they weren't terrible for a freshman and first semester sophomore that wasn't a ranked recruit.

Poor shooter. Turned the ball over too much. Would have been a back up all year.

[Its DJOver]

Don't know. I personally think he could've. Im not about to find his numbers against every major conference opponent but I imagine they weren't terrible for a freshman and first semester sophomore that wasn't a ranked recruit.

I don't know what his numbers against high majors were either, but it's worth noting that when Traci transferred, Markus was not a pre season Beast player of the year candidate, having gone to a CPIII PG camp over the summer and had a game last year where he dropped 52. He was a 17 year old freshman that had what? a dozen collegiate games played. IMO that's too small of a sample size to know one way or the other so Traci must have been pretty sure that Markus was significantly better than him.

[Galway Eagle]

Poor shooter. Turned the ball over too much. Would have been a back up all year.

You mean an unranked freshman was turning the ball over? shocked. That's why I said decent for an unranked freshman. Clearly wasn't ready for prime time but I think that had he taken a red shirt or even without one he'd be pretty decent around this time.

[GGGG]

You mean an unranked freshman was turning the ball over? shocked. That's why I said decent for an unranked freshman. Clearly wasn't ready for prime time but I think that had he taken a red shirt or even without one he'd be pretty decent around this time.

I'd rather have Greg Elliott than a "pretty decent" mid-major point guard.

[Herman Cain]

Certainly a good problem to have.

I don't think Cain would go for a red-shirt, and I don't blame him.

Only guy that makes sense to me is Greg.  I just don't see the minutes for him.  We are a little thin at guard, sure, but I think Markus and Chartouney are going to play most of the minutes at the 1 and 2, and guys like Sacar, Bailey, Cain and even Sam could fill in at the 2 while Markus is running point.  I just don't think Greg will play much, barring injury.  Problem is, the depth at guard doesn't get any better for Greg next season either with McEwen coming in.  I think Greg is the best redshirt option, because even though he seems to love MU, he looks to me like a guy that could see limited minutes in meaningful games and see the writing on the wall for next season as well. A red-shirt could avoid that scenario. That said, I don't see it happening, and I don't see Greg wanting it.

At the end of the day, I just think we're looking at something like this minutes-wise:

PG: Chartouney (25), Markus (10), Greg (5)
SG: Markus (20), Sacar (15), Cain (5)
SF: Sam (25), Cain (10), Bailey (5)
PF: Morrow (25), Sam (5), Joey (5), Bailey (5)
C: John (15), Heldt (15), Joey (10)

Eke: Garbage time only

Totals:
Markus: 30
Sam: 30
Morrow: 25
Chartouney: 25
Sacar: 15
Theo: 15
Heldt: 15
Joey: 15
Cain: 15
Bailey: 10
Greg: 5
Ike: Garbage time only

Going to be tough for all of Cain, Bailey and Greg to find minutes. And honestly, I think 30 minutes for both Markus and Sam is a low estimate.  Sure, we'll have the depth to let them rest more in cupcakes, and not super competitive games, but those guys are playing big minutes in the big contests.

Greg played 18.3 minutes per game last year including heavy playing time in the Big East and did very well. His best game of the year may have been against Villanova , the national champion , where he put up 13 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist , 2 blocked shots , 1 steal and only one turnover in 25 minutes. I hardly think he is a candidate for red shirt, in fact , prior to the injury he recently suffered, my guess is that he was likely to start. Greg is the type of player the coaches want on the floor as much as possible.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Greg played 18.3 minutes per game last year including heavy playing time in the Big East and did very well. His best game of the year may have been against Villanova , the national champion , where he put up 13 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist , 2 blocked shots , 1 steal and only one turnover in 25 minutes. I hardly think he is a candidate for red shirt, in fact , prior to the injury he recently suffered, my guess is that he was likely to start. Greg is the type of player the coaches want on the floor as much as possible.

I'd love to see your minutes allocation if you think Greg is getting big minutes.

[Daniel]

I would redshirt no one and let things sort themselves out.