[Paint Touches] Should Marquette Redshirt Somebody?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

https://painttouches.com/2018/10/07/should-marquette-redshirt-somebody/

Said I would write this article months ago but finally got around to it. I think there could be a lot of good reasons in the pro column for using a redshirt this season.

[brewcity77]

The process of elimination makes this article a tough one to write. Going in I thought Cain, Bailey, and Elliott were the only possibilities. Cain is one of the guys that most excites me for this season. I love the Mikal Bridges comparison and agree completely that of the guys we've seen, he has the highest NBA ceiling.

This is a well-reasoned article that comes to a tough conclusion. I do see a benefit to someone taking a redshirt. I'll be interested to see what they do. If Bailey is ready for 15+ mpg, I think this makes sense. We certainly won't go 12 deep of guys playing double-digit minutes. Of course, if Cain did redshirt, we would likely run into a similar problem in 2019-20 as we currently project to having 12 full scholarships and between projected stars (Howard, Hauser) and used redshirts (Cain, Anim, Hauser, McEwen, Eke, Morrow) wouldn't leave many candidates for redshirts (Akanno, Bailey, John, Elliott).

All in all, well-written.

[nyg]

Good read, thanks.

I don't see anyone redshirting, but if Bailey and Joey are as good as the pre-season analysis, some player's on-court time is about to decrease.  If they don't like it, someone will leave, happens every year.

As far as all this NBA discussion.  Many posters have stated:

Markus will get NBA shot.
Sam will be in NBA.
Recently its been Bailey, McEwen and now Cain.
Next will be Joey talk, he is the highest rated recruit of all. That would be six NBA prospects, MU should be a top ten team.

Who knows, but it is extremely early and let see how all this potential shakes out after the Indiana, Kansas, Louisville/Tenn and Kansas St. games go. 

[Marcus92]

Interesting and well-written article. But I don't see it for Jamal. Sacar was nowhere near as big of a contributor during his freshman season. He needed the work on his game. Jamal, meanwhile, stepped in and made an immediate impact.

From a physical standpoint, I'm not sure how big a difference redshirting this year would make. Strength training is already part of the team's regular season regimen. Sitting out on game day won't affect that. To use the Mikal Bridges example, Jamal could be at a similar point by his senior year of eligibility without a redshirt (since Mikal redshirted and declared for the NBA following his junior year).

I think it's more likely that 1) Ike sees a lot of time on the bench this season, both because of his ongoing back issues, and being behind Ed, Theo and Matt on the depth chart; and/or 2) Greg doesn't get as many minutes, for similar reasons.

That would leave us with a 10-man rotation, with Ike and Greg hopefully being available as needed in the case of illness (seems like several players get hit with the flu every year), injury (an area we've been exceptionally fortunate), specific matchups and, of course, conserving main rotation players during blowout wins. IMO, that's preferable to a redshirt right now.

[Galway Eagle]

I vote BB, just to tie the Otule record of oldest MU player ever.

[tower912]

What an amazing world we live in.   Redshirt someone because of a team that is too deep.   But I think you picked the wrong guy.   

Theo John.   

Matt Heldt, Ike Eke, Ed Morrow, and a plethora of 6'8 guys can man the middle.      Front lines of Joey/Sam/Morrow, Morrow/Brendan/Cain,  Ike/Sam/Cain, Heldt/Bailey/Joey, Heldt/Sam/Sacar (oh, wait, that was manageable last year).    Take Theo's 20+ mpg and spread it around among Ike, Bailey, Joey, and Morrow.     

Theo gets another year stronger and smoother.   No controversy about shoving the senior aside.   If Matt, Ike, or Ed get hurt, pull the redshirt.    Easy peasy. 

[GGGG]

Interesting and well-written article. But I don't see it for Jamal. Sacar was nowhere near as big of a contributor during his freshman season. He needed the work on his game. Jamal, meanwhile, stepped in and made an immediate impact.

From a physical standpoint, I'm not sure how big a difference redshirting this year would make. Strength training is already part of the team's regular season regimen. Sitting out on game day won't affect that. To use the Mikal Bridges example, Jamal could be at a similar point by his senior year of eligibility without a redshirt (since Mikal redshirted and declared for the NBA following his junior year).

I think it's more likely that 1) Ike sees a lot of time on the bench this season, both because of his ongoing back issues, and being behind Ed, Theo and Matt on the depth chart; and/or 2) Greg doesn't get as many minutes, for similar reasons.

That would leave us with a 10-man rotation, with Ike and Greg hopefully being available as needed in the case of illness (seems like several players get hit with the flu every year), injury (an area we've been exceptionally fortunate), specific matchups and, of course, conserving main rotation players during blowout wins. IMO, that's preferable to a redshirt right now.

Sacar was ahead of Jamal in the line up last year and likely will be this year as well.

[fjm]

What an amazing world we live in.   Redshirt someone because of a team that is too deep.   But I think you picked the wrong guy.   

Theo John.   

Matt Heldt, Ike Eke, Ed Morrow, and a plethora of 6'8 guys can man the middle.      Front lines of Joey/Sam/Morrow, Morrow/Brendan/Cain,  Ike/Sam/Cain, Heldt/Bailey/Joey, Heldt/Sam/Sacar (oh, wait, that was manageable last year).    Take Theo's 20+ mpg and spread it around among Ike, Bailey, Joey, and Morrow.     

Theo gets another year stronger and smoother.   No controversy about shoving the senior aside.   If Matt, Ike, or Ed get hurt, pull the redshirt.    Easy peasy.

Love Theo. Dude is a STUD.

BUT 100% agree. If someone, redshirt Theo. He is going to be amazing, but he’ll be amazing after Ed leaves.

[Marcus92]

Sacar was ahead of Jamal in the line up last year and likely will be this year as well.

True. But Jamal played in every game as a freshman, earning more than 17 mpg (7th most on the team). He even played alongside Sacar in several lineups. He's already one of our best shooters. He should be even more valuable to the team this season with a full year of experience under his belt.

That's a totally different situation than Sacar's. He only appeared in 17 games as a freshman, averaging less than 5 mpg. He simply wasn't ready to be a regular contributor yet. The redshirt year made total sense.

As long as Jamal is playing a significant role -- and I see no reason why he wouldn't -- whether or not he starts shouldn't matter that much. We'll see how the rotation and minutes shake out.

[Marcus92]

You could argue that Brendan is going to take minutes from Jamal, or possibly leapfrog him on the depth chart. It's possible. Brendan looked good in the open practice. He's long, athletic and has a nice shot. But that describes Jamal, as well. If you go by the official roster, Jamal has 5 pounds on him. And Brendan has yet to play a single minute in a college game.

I think there's room for Sacar, Jamal and Brendan in the rotation. We'll have to see.

[Herman Cain]

https://painttouches.com/2018/10/07/should-marquette-redshirt-somebody/

Said I would write this article months ago but finally got around to it. I think there could be a lot of good reasons in the pro column for using a redshirt this season.

I applaud the fact that you took the time to write this article . I think some things need to be pointed out . First , a  student athlete has 5 years to complete 4 seasons of eligibility. A waiver to this can be granted for injuries, under certain circumstances. Which is why Chris Otule was able to hang around for six seasons. These waivers are granted at the end of the career. I am not fully sure how Joey is going to be treated but a very good case could be made that last season he was injured and not able to paly, hence he could apply for a waiver at some point down the road. I am sure the medical staff has this documented. Ike was clearly injured so he will likely be able to get a waiver down the road as well.

So , if there is anyone who should be sitting out and not using a season of eligibility it should be Ike. Ike did not gain the benefit intended last year, because he had the injury so soon after he elected to sit the year out. So my take is have him sit this year out and really get up to speed. 

Cain had a very solid year last year and has made great strides to go to the next level. He is ready to contribute now .  I think it would be wise to ease Sam back in from the injury and allow Jamal to soak a lot of those extra minutes up. Jamal will benefit  more from game experience at this point as his tools are all there. As you point out he needs to be able to relax and have confidence and a player can only get that  confidence from actually  playing.

My general take is the rotation will be similar to the 2016-17 team. The guys who play the best in practice will start. Then there will be a 9-10 man rotation with guys coming in at the TV break and players who have a hot hand staying in for longer stretches. Ultimately leading to the best 5 for any one particular game in at the end. There are always nagging injuries so I think everyone can be happy under that scenario and if Ike sat out it would all work out.

[GGGG]

I'm pretty certain that Ike wouldn't be eligible for a sixth year if he takes his "regular redshirt" after a season in which he medically cannot play.  I think those situations have to be reversed.  Now, if he is still struggling with his back, then yeah - he should sit this year and will likely get a sixth.

[WarriorFan]

Interesting discussion.

I immediately thought Theo is the best candidate because of the quantity of good Bigs and because he could really develop into a beast in 5 years.
Jamal in my view is too ready now... needs and deserves minutes
Ike - if his back doesn't improve - could end up being a wasted scholarship or a guy who's happy to hang on for some PT in his 5th year.
Sam - if he's not going to be 100% by the Badger game, should consider it.

My question, however, is that for cases like Theo or Sam, (assuming no early departure for NBA) wouldn't this make it possible or even likely they could grad-transfer?

[SaveOD238]

These things find a way of working themselves out.  Maybe someone will get hurt (I hope not).  If someone is disappointed with their playing time, they'll leave. 

[DCHoopster]

Interesting discussion.

I immediately thought Theo is the best candidate because of the quantity of good Bigs and because he could really develop into a beast in 5 years.
Jamal in my view is too ready now... needs and deserves minutes
Ike - if his back doesn't improve - could end up being a wasted scholarship or a guy who's happy to hang on for some PT in his 5th year.
Sam - if he's not going to be 100% by the Badger game, should consider it.

My question, however, is that for cases like Theo or Sam, (assuming no early departure for NBA) wouldn't this make it possible or even likely they could grad-transfer?

Theo looked much improve in the scrimmage.  Looks like he spent a year in the weight room scalping his body.  Looked much more coordinated from last year and
confident.  He is the last guy I would red-shirt.  You play with 11, and see what happens.  I would say more that Sacar transfers as a grad senior next year,  that
is possible.  Or you win big and everybody is happy. 

Chartouny and Howard might leave at end of year,   Morrow, Sam, Joey, Theo, Cain, Bailey are fighting for time upfront, McEven, Elliott, Akeeno backcourt.  Eke again
will not see the court, If for some reason Anim and Howard leave MU is short handed next year with 10 players.  So try and keep them all happy.

[GGGG]

I have zero idea why, in a season with such promise, that we would talk about redshirting ANY possible contributor.  People are just going to deal with less playing time. 

And I doubt Sacar would grad transfer.  But if he does, it likely means some people REALLY stepped up.

[MU82]

TAMU, I enjoyed reading the article and I totally understand your thought process.

That said, I wouldn't redshirt Cain, whom I believe can be a valuable contributor to a second-weekend NCAA tourney team. As some of our fellow Scoopers have opined, maybe Theo makes the most sense, but I wouldn't redshirt him, either. Indeed, I wouldn't redshirt any of our Warriors.

Let the best 8-10 players play. Let the 2-4 others support them in games and practices. If one or two of the others choose to leave, they choose to leave. That's life in the big city.

That said, if I'm Wojo, and if Cain or Theo or Elliott came to me and offered to redshirt, I would seriously consider redshirting them. I'm pretty doubtful that would happen, though.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

No.

Too many players recovering from injuries.  We don't know how many minutes Sam and Joey can handle early in the season so I think we need Cain.

Elliott is needed for guard depth from a numbers perspective.  What if Chartouney tweaks an ankle and is out 2 weeks? 

I think we need John, too.  Eke is raw and who knows how his back holds up.  Joey Hauser can play some 5 depending on matchups but will that work in BE or leave our interior defense lacking?  Heldt is limited athletically.  John gives valuable depth, especially in case of injuries or foul trouble.

I say let the season play out.  Between injuries,  foul trouble,  and the competition for minutes,  things will work themselves out.  I anticipate there will be one or two tranfers before next season because there always are.  But let's go all in this season and worry about next year when the time comes.

[MU82]

I say let the season play out.  Between injuries,  foul trouble,  and the competition for minutes,  things will work themselves out.  I anticipate there will be one or two tranfers before next season because there always are.  But let's go all in this season and worry about next year when the time comes.

This.

I liked the rest of your take too, LH, but especially this.

I do realize that worrying about stuff we can't control is pretty much a Scooper's "job," though!

[muwarrior69]

If any of our players redshirt does that mean they are transferring to UW?

[tower912]

For the record, I do not want think any MU players should redshirt this year.   Pressure full court and shuttle them in and out.    I arrived at Theo not because I think he won't contribute this year.   Honestly, I think there is a good chance he starts at the 5 this year.  But picture Theo a year from now if he took a year off an did nothing but work on his ball handling and his offense out to 18 feet.   As big and strong and athletic as he is, the market in the NBA for 6'9 players with little to no perimeter skills is limited.     A year working on his ballhandling and jumpshot gives him a better chance to play for money after he leaves MU. 

[Loose Cannon]

All things considered, this is a great situation to have and I hope it continues.

[skianth16]

I think Jamal as a redshirt option makes a lot of sense. We have 4 other options at the wing - Sam, Sacar, Brendan, and Joey - and these guys are all able to cover another position as well, although Brendan is a bit of a question mark. Jamal finished the year strong, helping to fill minutes that Cheatham was expected to fill, but he still has plenty of room to develop. Plus, I'm guessing he'll have a hard time getting to the rim this year without Rowsey on the perimeter to force defenses into spreading out.

I also think there's a case for Greg and Theo to be in the reshirt conversation. We have plenty of depth at the 4/5, and even though Theo improved by leaps and bounds last year, he could benefit from taking a year to improve his fundamentals and basketball IQ. Greg might be needed to provide depth at G, but we could also rely on Sam or Sacar to help fill that void if there are injuries to JC or Markus.

Given the minutes that all three of these guys played last year, I worry there might be another midseason transfer if no one redshirts. There are a few guys who may see there mpg fall by 5-10minutes, and that can create problems at times.

[MU82]

I worry there might be another midseason transfer if no one redshirts.

I don't worry about this at all. If it happens, it happens.

[Seashells]

Regarding the comment about Eke manning the middle to facilitate redshirting Theo, I'm not so sure Eke will be a banger.  His thighs have the diameter of my thumb...

[NotAnAlum]

I do think the staff needs to be concerned about this.  12 players who think they are good enough to "play now" is simply too many mouths to feed.  Someone is going to be disappointed and its likely going to be a wing.  If you do nothing and expect things to work themselves out you are likely to end up losing a guy the following year who you have 1 or 2 years invested in to transfer.  In doing so you miss out on the final most productive years.
That said this decision does not need to be made until Nov 6th.  So I would assume that all of the Sophs are under consideration as red shirt candidates for the next 4 weeks.  The next 4 weeks of practice will tell a lot.  We'll see how good Bailey is, how well the Hausers are coming back from injury, what kind of an option Joey or Ike are as the 3rd center etc.
This is the reason Wojo gets paid the big bucks.  He needs to determine where the team is strongest and then convince the player he choses to accept the redshirt

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Certainly a good problem to have.

I don't think Cain would go for a red-shirt, and I don't blame him.

Only guy that makes sense to me is Greg.  I just don't see the minutes for him.  We are a little thin at guard, sure, but I think Markus and Chartouney are going to play most of the minutes at the 1 and 2, and guys like Sacar, Bailey, Cain and even Sam could fill in at the 2 while Markus is running point.  I just don't think Greg will play much, barring injury.  Problem is, the depth at guard doesn't get any better for Greg next season either with McEwen coming in.  I think Greg is the best redshirt option, because even though he seems to love MU, he looks to me like a guy that could see limited minutes in meaningful games and see the writing on the wall for next season as well. A red-shirt could avoid that scenario. That said, I don't see it happening, and I don't see Greg wanting it.

At the end of the day, I just think we're looking at something like this minutes-wise:

PG: Chartouney (25), Markus (10), Greg (5)
SG: Markus (20), Sacar (15), Cain (5)
SF: Sam (25), Cain (10), Bailey (5)
PF: Morrow (25), Sam (5), Joey (5), Bailey (5)
C: John (15), Heldt (15), Joey (10)

Eke: Garbage time only

Totals:
Markus: 30
Sam: 30
Morrow: 25
Chartouney: 25
Sacar: 15
Theo: 15
Heldt: 15
Joey: 15
Cain: 15
Bailey: 10
Greg: 5
Ike: Garbage time only

Going to be tough for all of Cain, Bailey and Greg to find minutes. And honestly, I think 30 minutes for both Markus and Sam is a low estimate.  Sure, we'll have the depth to let them rest more in cupcakes, and not super competitive games, but those guys are playing big minutes in the big contests. 

[DCHoopster]

After watching Bailey, I would think he gets 20 minutes or more.  Really will depend once a real game is played, it is one thing to be a good practice player, it is another
to be a good player when the lights are on.

[Galway Eagle]

Certainly a good problem to have.

I don't think Cain would go for a red-shirt, and I don't blame him.

Only guy that makes sense to me is Greg.  I just don't see the minutes for him.  We are a little thin at guard, sure, but I think Markus and Chartouney are going to play most of the minutes at the 1 and 2, and guys like Sacar, Bailey, Cain and even Sam could fill in at the 2 while Markus is running point.  I just don't think Greg will play much, barring injury.  Problem is, the depth at guard doesn't get any better for Greg next season either with McEwen coming in.  I think Greg is the best redshirt option, because even though he seems to love MU, he looks to me like a guy that could see limited minutes in meaningful games and see the writing on the wall for next season as well. A red-shirt could avoid that scenario. That said, I don't see it happening, and I don't see Greg wanting it.

At the end of the day, I just think we're looking at something like this minutes-wise:

PG: Chartouney (25), Markus (10), Greg (5)
SG: Markus (20), Sacar (15), Cain (5)
SF: Sam (25), Cain (10), Bailey (5)
PF: Morrow (25), Sam (5), Joey (5), Bailey (5)
C: John (15), Heldt (15), Joey (10)

Eke: Garbage time only

Totals:
Markus: 30
Sam: 30
Morrow: 25
Chartouney: 25
Sacar: 15
Theo: 15
Heldt: 15
Joey: 15
Cain: 15
Bailey: 10
Greg: 5
Ike: Garbage time only

Going to be tough for all of Cain, Bailey and Greg to find minutes. And honestly, I think 30 minutes for both Markus and Sam is a low estimate.  Sure, we'll have the depth to let them rest more in cupcakes, and not super competitive games, but those guys are playing big minutes in the big contests.

Sort of agree though I think Morrow May get a couple less. I think unless wojo plans on running at the pace of the Steve Nash Suns I think it's a bit jammed for Greg to get minutes

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Sort of agree though I think Morrow May get a couple less. I think unless wojo plans on running at the pace of the Steve Nash Suns I think it's a bit jammed for Greg to get minutes

Morrow is better than you think he is if he you believe he's playing less than 25 minutes. 

[Galway Eagle]

Morrow is better than you think he is if he you believe he's playing less than 25 minutes.

On the contrary, I may be higher than most on morrow. I'm just not sure where he fits. He was not the fastest kid at Nebraska, and has zero outside shot. If this was five or so years ago I could see him being a classic BE bruiser but in wojos system I don't see the fit.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

On the contrary, I may be higher than most on morrow. I'm just not sure where he fits. He was not the fastest kid at Nebraska, and has zero outside shot. If this was five or so years ago I could see him being a classic BE bruiser but in wojos system I don't see the fit.

He fits at the 4.  He's a back to the basket rebounding 4.  With Markus and Sam on the court, we don't really need a PF that plays on the perimeter.  We need a banger that can play defense, pull down rebound and finish in the paint. 

I could see Morrow playing some post with a more of a 4 out / 1 in type offense at times, but I do think we'll see a lot of Morrow + Heldt/Theo combos.  A little different than past Wojo teams, yes, but that doesn't mean he won't "fit". 

[GGGG]

I do think the staff needs to be concerned about this.  12 players who think they are good enough to "play now" is simply too many mouths to feed.  Someone is going to be disappointed and its likely going to be a wing.  If you do nothing and expect things to work themselves out you are likely to end up losing a guy the following year who you have 1 or 2 years invested in to transfer.  In doing so you miss out on the final most productive years.
That said this decision does not need to be made until Nov 6th.  So I would assume that all of the Sophs are under consideration as red shirt candidates for the next 4 weeks.  The next 4 weeks of practice will tell a lot.  We'll see how good Bailey is, how well the Hausers are coming back from injury, what kind of an option Joey or Ike are as the 3rd center etc.
This is the reason Wojo gets paid the big bucks.  He needs to determine where the team is strongest and then convince the player he choses to accept the redshirt

I am not suggesting that MU "do nothing."  I am suggesting that Wojo has honest discussions with players, their roles and how they can earn more playing time.  I also expect him to discuss a vision of how they fit within the program not only this year, but also in future years.

If a player is unhappy because of playing time this year and doesn't either believe in the future outlined for him, or is just not satisfied at all, they can transfer and I really won't care.  Life goes on.

But I don't think you redshirt productive players.  The only player who I think isn't going to be productive this year is Ike, and he's already redshirted.  A case can be made for all 11 of the others, and I can see situations where each can grow and find a role on this team as the season wears on.  Making a decision by November 6 is still too soon IMO.

[skianth16]

Totals:
Markus: 30
Sam: 30
Morrow: 25
Chartouney: 25
Sacar: 15
Theo: 15
Heldt: 15
Joey: 15
Cain: 15
Bailey: 10
Greg: 5
Ike: Garbage time only

I doubt we'll see Sacar drop from 25-30 minutes a game all the way down to 15. He's probably still the best on ball defender on the team, and he's one of our better options at creating his own shot. Plus, this will be his fourth year in the program, so he'll be more comfortable with the system than any of the newcomers.

I honestly don't know how I'd reallocate the minutes, but I think Sacar has to get at least 20, maybe closer to 25. I think we're all a little high on the potential of the new guys right now, but my best guess is that a couple of them will take some time to develop into solid contributors.

[brewcity77]

Anyone asking the "don't redshirt someone because what if X gets injured?" question, they just take the redshirt off and play them. Just like Bucky did with Reuvers last year. A redshirt isn't definitive until they get through the season. You can take it off at any time.

[GGGG]

Anyone asking the "don't redshirt someone because what if X gets injured?" question, they just take the redshirt off and play them. Just like Bucky did with Reuvers last year. A redshirt isn't definitive until they get through the season. You can take it off at any time.

Yeah but Reuvers dropped the redshirt in early December.  What if the injury occurs in late January?  I would rather have a player fully engaged then one that has to change up a routine and expected to be a contributor.

[barfolomew]

Anyone asking the "don't redshirt someone because what if X gets injured?" question, they just take the redshirt off and play them. Just like Bucky did with Reuvers last year. A redshirt isn't definitive until they get through the season. You can take it off at any time.

I would like to see a tradition started where we burn a redshirt every year.
Like right around mid-December or so.

[TheyWereCones]

Certainly a good problem to have.

I don't think Cain would go for a red-shirt, and I don't blame him.

Only guy that makes sense to me is Greg.  I just don't see the minutes for him.  We are a little thin at guard, sure, but I think Markus and Chartouney are going to play most of the minutes at the 1 and 2, and guys like Sacar, Bailey, Cain and even Sam could fill in at the 2 while Markus is running point.  I just don't think Greg will play much, barring injury.  Problem is, the depth at guard doesn't get any better for Greg next season either with McEwen coming in.  I think Greg is the best redshirt option, because even though he seems to love MU, he looks to me like a guy that could see limited minutes in meaningful games and see the writing on the wall for next season as well. A red-shirt could avoid that scenario. That said, I don't see it happening, and I don't see Greg wanting it.

At the end of the day, I just think we're looking at something like this minutes-wise:

PG: Chartouney (25), Markus (10), Greg (5)
SG: Markus (20), Sacar (15), Cain (5)
SF: Sam (25), Cain (10), Bailey (5)
PF: Morrow (25), Sam (5), Joey (5), Bailey (5)
C: John (15), Heldt (15), Joey (10)

Eke: Garbage time only

Totals:
Markus: 30
Sam: 30
Morrow: 25
Chartouney: 25
Sacar: 15
Theo: 15
Heldt: 15
Joey: 15
Cain: 15
Bailey: 10
Greg: 5
Ike: Garbage time only

Going to be tough for all of Cain, Bailey and Greg to find minutes. And honestly, I think 30 minutes for both Markus and Sam is a low estimate.  Sure, we'll have the depth to let them rest more in cupcakes, and not super competitive games, but those guys are playing big minutes in the big contests.

My best guess would be to adjust it like this:

PG: Chartouney (20), Markus (20)
SG: Markus (10), Sacar (20), Greg (10)
SF: Sam (10), Cain (15), Bailey (15)
PF: Morrow (15), Sam (15), Joey (10)
C: John (15), Heldt (15), Morrow (10)

Eke - As they can fit him in.  He will get more time once Heldt graduates.

[nyg]

I doubt we'll see Sacar drop from 25-30 minutes a game all the way down to 15. He's probably still the best on ball defender on the team, and he's one of our better options at creating his own shot. Plus, this will be his fourth year in the program, so he'll be more comfortable with the system than any of the newcomers.

I honestly don't know how I'd reallocate the minutes, but I think Sacar has to get at least 20, maybe closer to 25. I think we're all a little high on the potential of the new guys right now, but my best guess is that a couple of them will take some time to develop into solid contributors.

Sacar got a lot of minutes last year because he was basically the only option.  When he went out, Cain took his spot, along with resting Sam, who was playing the #4. It was a three man rotation for two positions. This years team has added Joey, Morrow and Bailey to go along with them, leaving a five man rotation for two spots, so I think his minutes will subside somewhat. If Sacar has substantially approved his ball handling/dribbling skills, he would be a great option to back up Howard and JC. I hope so, he is very good defensively. 

[Marcus92]

I don't think Wojo wants anyone playing more than 30 minutes a game. Somewhere around 25 is probably ideal for the top of the rotation -- ensuring they can go all-out whenever they're on the court, while also giving them enough rest.

Right now, I'd assume that Sam, Markus and Joseph (in that order) will be at that 25 mpg level. Followed by Sacar, Jamal and Ed (three more proven players) playing about 20 mpg. Maybe it's 18 mpg, maybe it's 22 mpg. After that, it's anybody's guess.

As our top recruit, it's hard to imagine Joey getting any less than 15 mpg -- and even that feels low to me. I'm encouraged by what I saw from Brendan at the open practice, but don't know what that will translate into in terms of minutes. Ed, Theo and Matt may turn out to be basically interchangeable.

This is, of course, a good problem to have. Many of our past transfers have been players who weren't ready to compete at the highest level: Traci Carter, Sandy Cohen, Wally Ellenson, John Dawson. Now the cupboard is fully stocked with Big East talent. Competition during the next month of practice will decide who earns court time.

[Galway Eagle]

I don't think Wojo wants anyone playing more than 30 minutes a game. Somewhere around 25 is probably ideal for the top of the rotation -- ensuring they can go all-out whenever they're on the court, while also giving them enough rest.

Right now, I'd assume that Sam, Markus and Joseph (in that order) will be at that 25 mpg level. Followed by Sacar, Jamal and Ed (three more proven players) playing about 20 mpg. Maybe it's 18 mpg, maybe it's 22 mpg. After that, it's anybody's guess.

As our top recruit, it's hard to imagine Joey getting any less than 15 mpg -- and even that feels low to me. I'm encouraged by what I saw from Brendan at the open practice, but don't know what that will translate into in terms of minutes. Ed, Theo and Matt may turn out to be basically interchangeable.

This is, of course, a good problem to have. Many of our past transfers have been players who weren't ready to compete at the highest level: Traci Carter, Sandy Cohen, Wally Ellenson, John Dawson. Now the cupboard is fully stocked with Big East talent. Competition during the next month of practice will decide who earns court time.

Thought the consensus was traci could've contributed but writing was on the wall when he saw Markus play

[Its DJOver]

Thought the consensus was traci could've contributed but writing was on the wall when he saw Markus play

If Markus' PG skills were enough to scare Traci, would he really have made much of an impact anyway?

[Galway Eagle]

If Markus' PG skills were enough to scare Traci, would he really have made much of an impact anyway?

Don't know. I personally think he could've. Im not about to find his numbers against every major conference opponent but I imagine they weren't terrible for a freshman and first semester sophomore that wasn't a ranked recruit.

[GGGG]

Don't know. I personally think he could've. Im not about to find his numbers against every major conference opponent but I imagine they weren't terrible for a freshman and first semester sophomore that wasn't a ranked recruit.

Poor shooter. Turned the ball over too much. Would have been a back up all year.

[Its DJOver]

Don't know. I personally think he could've. Im not about to find his numbers against every major conference opponent but I imagine they weren't terrible for a freshman and first semester sophomore that wasn't a ranked recruit.

I don't know what his numbers against high majors were either, but it's worth noting that when Traci transferred, Markus was not a pre season Beast player of the year candidate, having gone to a CPIII PG camp over the summer and had a game last year where he dropped 52. He was a 17 year old freshman that had what? a dozen collegiate games played. IMO that's too small of a sample size to know one way or the other so Traci must have been pretty sure that Markus was significantly better than him.

[Galway Eagle]

Poor shooter. Turned the ball over too much. Would have been a back up all year.

You mean an unranked freshman was turning the ball over? shocked. That's why I said decent for an unranked freshman. Clearly wasn't ready for prime time but I think that had he taken a red shirt or even without one he'd be pretty decent around this time.

[GGGG]

You mean an unranked freshman was turning the ball over? shocked. That's why I said decent for an unranked freshman. Clearly wasn't ready for prime time but I think that had he taken a red shirt or even without one he'd be pretty decent around this time.

I’d rather have Greg Elliott than a “pretty decent” mid-major point guard.

[Herman Cain]

Certainly a good problem to have.

I don't think Cain would go for a red-shirt, and I don't blame him.

Only guy that makes sense to me is Greg.  I just don't see the minutes for him.  We are a little thin at guard, sure, but I think Markus and Chartouney are going to play most of the minutes at the 1 and 2, and guys like Sacar, Bailey, Cain and even Sam could fill in at the 2 while Markus is running point.  I just don't think Greg will play much, barring injury.  Problem is, the depth at guard doesn't get any better for Greg next season either with McEwen coming in.  I think Greg is the best redshirt option, because even though he seems to love MU, he looks to me like a guy that could see limited minutes in meaningful games and see the writing on the wall for next season as well. A red-shirt could avoid that scenario. That said, I don't see it happening, and I don't see Greg wanting it.

At the end of the day, I just think we're looking at something like this minutes-wise:

PG: Chartouney (25), Markus (10), Greg (5)
SG: Markus (20), Sacar (15), Cain (5)
SF: Sam (25), Cain (10), Bailey (5)
PF: Morrow (25), Sam (5), Joey (5), Bailey (5)
C: John (15), Heldt (15), Joey (10)

Eke: Garbage time only

Totals:
Markus: 30
Sam: 30
Morrow: 25
Chartouney: 25
Sacar: 15
Theo: 15
Heldt: 15
Joey: 15
Cain: 15
Bailey: 10
Greg: 5
Ike: Garbage time only

Going to be tough for all of Cain, Bailey and Greg to find minutes. And honestly, I think 30 minutes for both Markus and Sam is a low estimate.  Sure, we'll have the depth to let them rest more in cupcakes, and not super competitive games, but those guys are playing big minutes in the big contests.

Greg played 18.3 minutes per game last year including heavy playing time in the Big East and did very well. His best game of the year may have been against Villanova , the national champion , where he put up 13 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist , 2 blocked shots , 1 steal and only one turnover in 25 minutes. I hardly think he is a candidate for red shirt, in fact , prior to the injury he recently suffered, my guess is that he was likely to start. Greg is the type of player the coaches want on the floor as much as possible.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Greg played 18.3 minutes per game last year including heavy playing time in the Big East and did very well. His best game of the year may have been against Villanova , the national champion , where he put up 13 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist , 2 blocked shots , 1 steal and only one turnover in 25 minutes. I hardly think he is a candidate for red shirt, in fact , prior to the injury he recently suffered, my guess is that he was likely to start. Greg is the type of player the coaches want on the floor as much as possible.

I’d love to see your minutes allocation if you think Greg is getting big minutes.

[Daniel]

I would redshirt no one and let things sort themselves out. 

[Floorslapper]

You mean an unranked freshman was turning the ball over? shocked. That's why I said decent for an unranked freshman. Clearly wasn't ready for prime time but I think that had he taken a red shirt or even without one he'd be pretty decent around this time.

I can only imagine Markus Howard’s turnover rate if he was the sole/primary PG his freshman year at MU, as was Traci.

Traci could play at Big East level, but with Rowsey AND Howard, hard to stick around. In my ideal scenario, Traci would have been redshirted last year, while Rowsey finished out his career, and then Traci would have stepped into role Chartouney is filling. I’d personally rather have had Traci (in his 3rd year in program) than 1 year of Chartouney.

Think Traci will be dominant in the A-10. 

[Marcus92]

I liked Traci. At the time, I thought he could have developed into a good point guard. But there isn't a guard on the current roster that I'd trade for him today. Think we've upgraded our talent and depth at the position with Joseph, Greg and Kobe.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Anyone asking the "don't redshirt someone because what if X gets injured?" question, they just take the redshirt off and play them. Just like Bucky did with Reuvers last year. A redshirt isn't definitive until they get through the season. You can take it off at any time.

I am well aware of how a redshirt works.  I stick by my earlier comment about being concerned with injuries and preferring not to redshirt anyone this year other than the transfer,  McEwen.

Say Elliott plans to redshirt and Chartouney blows his knee Jan 15.  Ok, you burn the redshirt.  But you also handicapped MU for about half the year by not being at full strength.

[TheyWereCones]

I would not redshirt anyone, especially Jamal.  He could easily end up being a top 5 contributor this year who plays 20+ minutes.  You don't redshirt that.  If that's at the cost of someone else losing minutes, so be it.  Who else in the last 20 years have we ever redshirted that had the potential to contribute at that level?

The only person to me who could possibly make sense is Greg, and to me that only makes sense if he's dealing with lingering thumb issues and therefore will have a harder time competing if not at 100%.  But I love Greg.  He's like Rod Tidwell..."I'm all heart baby!"  I hope he is 100% and does not redshirt.  He reminds me most on this roster of the gritty Buzz teams that you just hated to play because you knew it was going to be a fight.  Theo has some of that too.  We need more of that.  We've been way too soft the past few years.  No intimidation at all.

I also hate when we speculate on transfers or even talk about it at all.  Constantly reminding everyone that in most seasons someone transfers is just as fun as reminding everyone that someone you know will likely get cancer in the next 5 years.  I love this team, the chemistry they seem to have, and I hope no one transfers and everyone understands that the guy who plays 5 minutes a game is still a valuable piece to an exciting puzzle.  We should be very good this year and could be unbelievable next year.  If everyone plays for the name on the front of the jersey, I don't see any transfers, and the way these guys seem to get along, I'm optimistic.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Redshirts become graduate transfers elsewhere. We got three guys hurt by the first scrimmage.  No

[Galway Eagle]

I’d rather have Greg Elliott than a “pretty decent” mid-major point guard.

That's fair you're free to disagree with me, essentially what I am saying is that I believe he'll be where Chartouny was when he plays in the A10 this year. We can disagree.

[GGGG]

That's fair you're free to disagree with me, essentially what I am saying is that I believe he'll be where Chartouny was when he plays in the A10 this year. We can disagree.

We will see.  I doubt he will be as good of a shooter as JC is.  Also the combination of usage and turnover% was pretty poor with TC.

[Galway Eagle]

We will see.  I doubt he will be as good of a shooter as JC is.  Also the combination of usage and turnover% was pretty poor with TC.

In general or from distance? Because good shooter isn't an adjective I'd use for someone who shot 28% as a Jr from deep.

[GGGG]

In general or from distance? Because good shooter isn't an adjective I'd use for someone who shot 28% as a Jr from deep.

EFG rules.

[94Warrior]

Eke is the only one I'd consider.  If his back is still an issue apply for a Hardship Waiver, and make the case.  If not, he loses a year of eligibility to develop.  So be it, last year was needed as a development year, and unfortunately he lost it to injury.  I am assuming he still needs a year of development until he is ready to contribute. 
There are no minutes for him with Matt, Theo, Ed and Joey. 
Backs are tricky, he sat out the Open Scrimmage.  A case could be made he is not 100%.

[brewcity77]

Eke is the only one I'd consider.  If his back is still an issue apply for a Hardship Waiver, and make the case.

There's really no case. If Eke redshirts, he loses a year. Period. They won't grant an extra year to a guy that willingly burned a year when he'd already spent his year in residence.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

There's really no case. If Eke redshirts, he loses a year. Period. They won't grant an extra year to a guy that willingly burned a year when he'd already spent his year in residence.

Even if he has lingering issues related to a somewhat significant back operation? You're probably right, but seems like there should be some form of a case there.   

[Silkk the Shaka]

That's fair you're free to disagree with me, essentially what I am saying is that I believe he'll be where Chartouny was when he plays in the A10 this year. We can disagree.

We all disagree
I think we should disagree
Yeah

-Julian Casablancas

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Redshirts become graduate transfers elsewhere if they are unhappy with their role on their current team. We got three guys hurt by the first scrimmage.  No

FIFY

Since 2011, Marquette has had 7 scholarship players who theoretically could have qualified for a grad transfer. Only 1 of them took advantage of it (Duane). This doesn't include any players who could have graduated in three years (not sure if we've had any). It's a misconception that all or even most players who are grad transfer eligible take advantage of it. I also think we are heading towards no redshirts for transfer sooner rather than later so it may be a non-issue.

As for the injury concern, there is so much depth on this team that I think it would take two season ending injuries to require burning the redshirt. I am also not afraid of burning the redshirt if necessary. Kansas State burned Mike McGuirl's redshirt in January and helped them to an Elite Eight appearance. Creighton burned Jacob Epperson's redshirt after Krampelj went down at the end of January and he became an effective member in their rotation.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

There's really no case. If Eke redshirts, he loses a year. Period. They won't grant an extra year to a guy that willingly burned a year when he'd already spent his year in residence.

Eke's surgery from last season could get him a medical hardship waiver. If the docs say that his back still needs more time to heal they would have a strong case for a sixth year. If his back needs more time, than I think they should pursue that route.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Someone said somewhere that Cain is a top 8 player in our rotation this season. If that is the case, he absolutely should play. I'm just not so sure that it is true. Here's my math:

Cain was the 7th player in our rotation last season
Unless he takes a massive leap (or someone ahead of him is hurt) I don't see him passing anyone
Rowdy left so that moves Cain up to 6th
We added Joe and Ed, both whom are more known quantities than the two freshman. I could be wrong, but based on previous performances, I expect both to be ahead, moving Cain down to 8th
Now if he's top 8, I think he should play. But 9 or lower? I probably think about redshirting him. So all it would take is one of Joey or BB to be ahead of him to put him in the benchwarmer range
Theo I think gets a pass because of depth at his postition

Of course, all of this changes if Greg (or someone else) is significantly hurt.

For me, this is all about the long term. I would rather trade a year of Cain being the 9th or 10th man in the rotation now, for a year of him being one of the top 3 players later. I think we have the depth to handle it.

This is all dependent on the player though. Redshirts can bring out the best in a player (Sacar) or it can break their confidence/trust and set them back. Wojo and Co know what buttons to press with which player.

[Herman Cain]

Eke's surgery from last season could get him a medical hardship waiver. If the docs say that his back still needs more time to heal they would have a strong case for a sixth year. If his back needs more time, than I think they should pursue that route.

I agree with this analysis.

[brewcity77]

Eke's surgery from last season could get him a medical hardship waiver. If the docs say that his back still needs more time to heal they would have a strong case for a sixth year. If his back needs more time, than I think they should pursue that route.

Call me crazy, but I think his odds to get a second year for the same injury were hurt when he broke the school record for vertical.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Call me crazy, but I think his odds to get a second year for the same injury were hurt when he broke the school record for vertical.

Eh. My wife just had back surgery in April. She can jump just as high as she did pre-sugery. She definitely couldn't play basketball. There's also the possibility of a reinjury. If the docs say he shouldn't play this season, I'm confident Eke could get a sixth year. I have no idea what the status of Ike's back is.

[tower912]

Probably not now.

[brewcity77]

Probably not now.

Unless it's Elliott. If we get to January and we are getting enough PG minutes out of Howard and Chartouny, along with Howard, Anim, and maybe Bailey and/or Cain playing the 2, it's entirely possible we could just let Elliott ride.