2018 US Open audience?

[Lennys Tap]

I doubt many youngsters were watching.

At least she didn't shave her head.

Now that's funny.

[Pakuni]

Besides, is the chair umpire not a minority, himself?

He's Portuguese.

[MU82]

I doubt many youngsters were watching.

At least she didn't shave her head.

Made me laugh.

As for the youngsters ...

Even if they were watching, that's a good thing, the proverbial "teachable moment."

People used to rail at Brady or Tiger being caught cursing by TV mikes, saying, "What about our kids?" Well, what about them? Adults swear. Adults whine. Use these examples as opportunities to talk with your kids about what the adults might have done differently and why you hold your kids to higher standards.

And yes, the situation with Serena could have had elements of sexism in it ... even if people who often try to pretend that "isms" don't exist would rather say otherwise.

[forgetful]

I agree with this 100%.

Chris Evert said she believes Serena should have been given a warning before the game penalty, and she also felt that men, in general, get longer leashes with things like "racquet abuse."

I think Chris Evert knows a thing or two about all of this stuff.

Chris Evert also said that there was no sexism here, that Ramos is known for being a stickler for the rules and treats men the same as women in that regard. 

"But he has not been hesitant to penalize men. Ramos gave Murray a code violation during the 2016 Olympics after Murray accused him of “stupid umpiring.”

“No sexist issue there,” said Chris Evert, the former world No. 1, on Sunday. “His history with men players shows that.” "

From

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/09/sports/tennis/serena-williams-umpire-carlos-ramos-us-open.html

[MU82]

Chris Evert also said that there was no sexism here, that Ramos is known for being a stickler for the rules and treats men the same as women in that regard. 

"But he has not been hesitant to penalize men. Ramos gave Murray a code violation during the 2016 Olympics after Murray accused him of “stupid umpiring.”

“No sexist issue there,” said Chris Evert, the former world No. 1, on Sunday. “His history with men players shows that.” "

From

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/09/sports/tennis/serena-williams-umpire-carlos-ramos-us-open.html

Thanks, forgetful. I thought I had heard otherwise during her commentary afterward on ESPN, but I fully allow that I could be wrong. I was not trying to deceive.

She did definitely say that the umpire should have found a way to give Serena a warning before assessing the game penalty. That I remember.

Also in that NYT piece you linked:

Katrina Adams, the president of the United States Tennis Association, defended Williams in an interview with ESPN on Sunday.

“I would say last night is unfortunate,” she said. “We have to have consistency, because when you look at what the women, in this case Serena, is feeling, we watch the guys do this all the time. They are badgering the chair umpires on the changeover. Nothing happens.”

[Its DJOver]

Katrina Adams, the president of the United States Tennis Association, defended Williams in an interview with ESPN on Sunday.

“I would say last night is unfortunate,” she said. “We have to have consistency, because when you look at what the women, in this case Serena, is feeling, we watch the guys do this all the time. They are badgering the chair umpires on the changeover. Nothing happens.”

I'm not sure I would read too much into that.  The President of the USTA kinda has to back Serena.  She's been the face of US tennis for a while now.  If one of the "Big 4" of men's tennis was an American, and the identity of US tennis was male, it might be different, but as long as Serena is American tennis, she'll get backed by the USTA every time.

[forgetful]

Thanks, forgetful. I thought I had heard otherwise during her commentary afterward on ESPN, but I fully allow that I could be wrong. I was not trying to deceive.

She did definitely say that the umpire should have found a way to give Serena a warning before assessing the game penalty. That I remember.

Also in that NYT piece you linked:

Katrina Adams, the president of the United States Tennis Association, defended Williams in an interview with ESPN on Sunday.

“I would say last night is unfortunate,” she said. “We have to have consistency, because when you look at what the women, in this case Serena, is feeling, we watch the guys do this all the time. They are badgering the chair umpires on the changeover. Nothing happens.”

Didn't intend on suggesting you were trying to deceive.  Just adding more to the commentary.  I have no doubt that she said something along the lines you describe. 

The question then is was it sexism.  I think it clearly was not, and Evert apparently agrees. 

Now whether men are allowed to do this by other umpires, no idea, but those other umpires are not involved in this instance. 

A bigger question to me is: What are we trying to say, that women should be able to verbally assault line judges more, because men have?  Maybe this umpire has it right...hold them all accountable, which we should be celebrating not attacking him as sexist.

[dsfire]

Help me out here .. so the first incident, the ump gives Williams a *warning* for coaching from the sidelines.  Yes?   Besides counting as a warning, is there any other effect?  Lost point or something?

Also .. besides not enforcing the rule, could the ump have done something less?

The coaching, racket abuse and verbal abuse called against Serena are all in a category called Code of Conduct violations, basically unsportsmanlike conduct.  Once the chair umpire has called the violation, he has no discretion on the penalty - there's a schedule that assesses a warning for the first, a point penalty for the second and a game penalty for any thereafter (plus the referee, the chair's supervisor, can disqualify the player once it gets to that point).  It's incredibly common to see warnings, point penalties are uncommon but I've seen them assessed before, and I don't think I've ever seen a game penalty called before... but that's because players know they're on thin ice at that point.

I'm not sure why Ramos called the coaching violation - it's a weird call, especially on that stage.  However, Serena's not the first player to have a weird violation called against her and the unraveling from there is mostly on her.  Ramos probably could've also warned her that she was close to getting a verbal abuse violation and game penalty, but he wasn't out of line to call it when he did.

[Its DJOver]

A good hypothetical to think about.  If the roles had been reversed.  Osaka got penalized and Serena won.  Would the headlines be about possible sexism or racism, or would they be about how a 20 year old, in her first Grand Slam Final didn't have the mental toughness to overcome some difficult calls?

Between this and the excuses made for her after her Wimbledon loss, I think the media is just instinctively getting behind Serena, trying to spin some story that really isn't there. 

[MU82]

A good hypothetical to think about.  If the roles had been reversed.  Osaka got penalized and Serena won.  Would the headlines be about possible sexism or racism, or would they be about how a 20 year old, in her first Grand Slam Final didn't have the mental toughness to overcome some difficult calls?

Between this and the excuses made for her after her Wimbledon loss, I think the media is just instinctively getting behind Serena, trying to spin some story that really isn't there.

Interesting take.

I was extremely impressed with Osaka.

[StillAWarrior]

Since I know that you've all been waiting patiently for my take...

For some reason, this ump inserted himself into the match with an early warning on coaching that was apparently fairly unusual.  I will admit that I don't watch a ton of tennis, so I'm merely going by what various talking heads were saying about the warning.  I have no idea if he had said anything earlier before giving the initial warning (a "pre-warning" if you will).  At least one in this thread said, "my guess is" that there had been multiple complaints and the ump was watching for it.  I'll assume that this is, as stated, a guess.  In any event, this started the entire affair.

Then, when Serena smashed her racked, he really had little choice but to call the violation and penalize her.  As I understand it, he had to penalize her a point because of the earlier warning.

And obviously, this set Serena off.  While I completely understand why she was pissed, she should have controlled herself and saved it for the post-match presser.  Ultimately, that's on her.  Who knows, if she'd kept her cool, it might have been following a victory (although I seriously doubt it -- Osaka played a great match and almost certainly would have won anyway).

But, in my opinion, the ump shares some of the blame.  In that setting, I think he should have had a slower trigger finger with the first warning.  Then, having issued the warning, I think he should have had a slower trigger finger on the "verbal abuse" penalty.  Honestly, I view it much like I view how NBA officials handle technical fouls.  Often after giving an early T, they'll let players get away with a little more after that to avoid the second technical and ejection.

All that said, Serena was in a position to avoid this.  Just like the player with the first technical, get your crap together and don't give the ref/ump an opportunity to penalize you further.  You can blame the umps/refs all you want, but once you realize how they're calling the match, you gotta make adjustments.

And it was an absolute shame that Osaka's great moment was tainted by this mess.  I felt really bad for her.  She played a great match and should have been basking in the glory of her accomplishment.

[Benny B]

He's Portuguese.

[MU82]

Since I know that you've all been waiting patiently for my take...

For some reason, this ump inserted himself into the match with an early warning on coaching that was apparently fairly unusual.  I will admit that I don't watch a ton of tennis, so I'm merely going by what various talking heads were saying about the warning.  I have no idea if he had said anything earlier before giving the initial warning (a "pre-warning" if you will).  At least one in this thread said, "my guess is" that there had been multiple complaints and the ump was watching for it.  I'll assume that this is, as stated, a guess.  In any event, this started the entire affair.

Then, when Serena smashed her racked, he really had little choice but to call the violation and penalize her.  As I understand it, he had to penalize her a point because of the earlier warning.

And obviously, this set Serena off.  While I completely understand why she was pissed, she should have controlled herself and saved it for the post-match presser.  Ultimately, that's on her.  Who knows, if she'd kept her cool, it might have been following a victory (although I seriously doubt it -- Osaka played a great match and almost certainly would have won anyway).

But, in my opinion, the ump shares some of the blame.  In that setting, I think he should have had a slower trigger finger with the first warning.  Then, having issued the warning, I think he should have had a slower trigger finger on the "verbal abuse" penalty.  Honestly, I view it much like I view how NBA officials handle technical fouls.  Often after giving an early T, they'll let players get away with a little more after that to avoid the second technical and ejection.

All that said, Serena was in a position to avoid this.  Just like the player with the first technical, get your crap together and don't give the ref/ump an opportunity to penalize you further.  You can blame the umps/refs all you want, but once you realize how they're calling the match, you gotta make adjustments.

And it was an absolute shame that Osaka's great moment was tainted by this mess.  I felt really bad for her.  She played a great match and should have been basking in the glory of her accomplishment.

Had I known you would offer such a reasonable take, I would have been waiting patiently just for it!

[mu_hilltopper]

Are Women Penalized More Than Men in Tennis? Data Says No

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/14/sports/tennis-fines-men-women.html

TL;DR .. more men do more bad things, called plenty often.

[MU82]

Are Women Penalized More Than Men in Tennis? Data Says No

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/14/sports/tennis-fines-men-women.html

TL;DR .. more men do more bad things, called plenty often.

Interesting. Thanks for posting.