2018 US Open audience?

[mu_hilltopper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvy0d_65aKU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCm3BemDlj8

Serena had a melt-down .. I think the umpire made the right calls, mostly, her coach admitted to coaching signals, so there's no real defense there.  Maybe you could kibbitz that the ump could have given Serena a super duper warning (in essence, letting her have 4 instead of 3 infractions before a game penalty.)

Besides Williams' poor behavior, I think she was relatively gracious at the end.

But .. watching this and reading the articles .. it sure seems like the AUDIENCE was the most wrong.   I can't quite fathom their behavior.

I mean, I get it, a ref makes a bunch of bad calls at a MU game, and the audience is all over them.  I think I'm mostly confused at the audience being on "team Serena" so much so, they denigrate the victory of this seemingly wonderful 20 year old girl who completely demolished Williams, 6-2, 6-4.

Anyone follow the sport enough .. maybe this Osaka girl has some bad history that would explain why the audience would do this?

[GGGG]

I would say the problems are multi-fold. 

First, coaching from the stands with hand signals happens all the time.  Why this judge picked this moment in time to penalize her for it, while by the book is correct, is really the wrong thing to do.  It's like running a speed trap for those going 2 mph over the speed limit during rush hour.  Wrong place, wrong time to do things completely by the book when no one does things by the book.

Second, Serena melted down and pushed it too far.  She has a history of that.  A lot of national media is taking her side on this and I just don't see it.  Openly calling the judge a thief is flat out wrong.  She shodittould have let it go.

Third, the crowd's response was awful. 

So the only good party in this entire deal is Osaka.  She deserved better.

[forgetful]

I would say the problems are multi-fold. 

First, coaching from the stands with hand signals happens all the time.  Why this judge picked this moment in time to penalize her for it, while by the book is correct, is really the wrong thing to do.  It's like running a speed trap for those going 2 mph over the speed limit during rush hour.  Wrong place, wrong time to do things completely by the book when no one does things by the book.

My guess is there were multiple complaints about her coach specifically doing a lot of coaching, and they were asked to watch for it. It wasn't only hand signals either, he apparently was yelling instructions. 

Also, it was only a warning.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

We don't think of it this way because its not a team sport, but many tennis fans are just as loyal to individual players as we are to our basketball/football/hockey teams. The crowd's reaction was fandom, pure and simple.

Now that doesn't make it right but its not that surprising to me.

[cheebs09]

Yea, it’s kind of ridiculous to turn this into a gender issue. The coach admitted to coaching. The only reason it was a game and not a regular warning is she already got dinged for coaching and breaking her racket.

Serena was also the one to tell a line judge she was going to shove a ball down her throat at the US Open a number of years ago.

[MUBurrow]

Yea, it’s kind of ridiculous to turn this into a gender issue. The coach admitted to coaching. The only reason it was a game and not a regular warning is she already got dinged for coaching and breaking her racket.

Completely disagree. This judge turned the letter of the law vs spirit of the law against Serena in literally every instance here, injected himself into the outcome, and is far more to blame for the degree this takes away from Osaka than Serena. Anyone that cites to the coach's admission that he was coaching just isn't taking into account his whole interview, or the realities of tennis. That was remarkably tame in comparison to what other coaches do during matches, and its NEVER called. And unless a player physically assaults a chair umpire, you just don't give entire games away in the final of a grand slam. Giving the umpire/referee the ability to straight up award points takes away from the legitimacy of any sport, and the chair umpire shouldn't have been so eager to do so.

[MUBurrow]

nm

[Pakuni]

Completely disagree. This judge turned the letter of the law vs spirit of the law against Serena in literally every instance here, injected himself into the outcome, and is far more to blame for the degree this takes away from Osaka than Serena. Anyone that cites to the coach's admission that he was coaching just isn't taking into account his whole interview, or the realities of tennis. That was remarkably tame in comparison to what other coaches do during matches, and its NEVER called. And unless a player physically assaults a chair umpire, you just don't give entire games away in the final of a grand slam. Giving the umpire/referee the ability to straight up award points takes away from the legitimacy of any sport, and the chair umpire shouldn't have been so eager to do so.

Yep.
This goes way beyond the hand signals thing, which was at best a minor infraction with a minor penalty. Serena was punished more substantially for actions - smashing her racquet, yelling at the umpire - that other players (namely men) have gotten away with in the sport forever.
Carlos Ramos went Joe West and made everyone look bad in the process.

[Herman Cain]

Serena is one of the all time greats in all of sports. I thought it was bs for the Umpire to inject himself into the match the way he did. Osaka had a great match and it was too bad her efforts got got caught up in a typical US Open side show that happens every so often.  Serena showed class by acknowledging her opponents win in the ceremony. 

[cheebs09]

Yep.
This goes way beyond the hand signals thing, which was at best a minor infraction with a minor penalty. Serena was punished more substantially for actions - smashing her racquet, yelling at the umpire - that other players (namely men) have gotten away with in the sport forever.
Carlos Ramos went Joe West and made everyone look bad in the process.

She got penalized a point for the racket because she already had a warning for coaching. Another code violation results in a point penalty. Breaking a racket is a code violation. He had no choice other than penalizing her a point.

Was it a quick trigger on the violation for verbal abuse? I’d say so. Do I think it’s because she’s a woman? Not at all.

[mu03eng]

She got penalized a point for the racket because she already had a warning for coaching. Another code violation results in a point penalty. Breaking a racket is a code violation. He had no choice other than penalizing her a point.

Was it a quick trigger on the violation for verbal abuse? I’d say so. Do I think it’s because she’s a woman? Not at all.

Then explain why there is seemingly much more tolerance for men getting vocal and nasty without consequence? Andy Roddick admitted to saying far worse to an official and it went unpunished

[WarriorFan]

Possibly one of the best and most competitive women's finals in years was destroyed by an official who forgot his place.  The coaching thing is pervasive and could (should) have been resolved with a polite discussion.  Enforcing such a silly and oft-violated rule in the open championship is like suddenly enforcing holding in the Super Bowl, or traveling when James Harden is playing in the NBA playoffs after not enforcing it for the whole season.  Had that not irritated Serena she probably wouldn't have broken her racket.  Had she not broken her racket she wouldn't have fought so hard verbally about the coaching thing.  Then the fans won't be robbed of a possible 3rd set - which is the real tragedy here.

The official should be removed from all top level competition.
Serena surely is humiliated enough.
Osaka unfortunately will never get to celebrate this championship the way it should be celebrated.  She played great.  She doesn't have a complete game yet, but she played to her own strengths so well that she beat Serena.  She handled it as well as anyone could.  Kudos to here.

[jesmu84]

Then explain why there is seemingly much more tolerance for men getting vocal and nasty without consequence? Andy Roddick admitted to saying far worse to an official and it went unpunished

Was it roddicks first incident that day? Have tennis umps been given new instructions on warnings/punishments since roddick played?

In Serena's case, I don't think what she said was bad, but it was her 3rd incident that day.

[cheebs09]

Then explain why there is seemingly much more tolerance for men getting vocal and nasty without consequence? Andy Roddick admitted to saying far worse to an official and it went unpunished

I don’t think it was the right call to give her the game penalty. I also don’t believe it was given because she was a woman.

 She argued a decent amount right away when the point penalty was assessed and then spent an entire changeover berating him. How many times have we seen a basketball coach get T’d up for not saying something bad, but just for not letting up?

I’ve seen videos in the past day of McEnroe and Roddick being penalized points and games. So the idea they always got off without penalty isn’t true. Just not in the final of a major.

Heck, I’m sure there’s plenty of women tennis players that have said worse and not gotten a warning. To make this into a gender issue is ridiculous in my opinion.

[cheebs09]

Also, replay has changed things a lot in regards to the player/chair arguments. They are far less common now than in the past. That may have played a role in a shorter leash than when Roddick was in his hey-day.

[Lennys Tap]

Also, replay has changed things a lot in regards to the player/chair arguments. They are far less common now than in the past. That may have played a role in a shorter leash than when Roddick was in his hey-day.

This. The rants I remember when I watched McEnroe and the rest were invariably over line calls. That has been eliminated by replay.

Question: If Serena's opponent hadn't been another minority would racism be in this mix with sexism?

[MU82]

Completely disagree. This judge turned the letter of the law vs spirit of the law against Serena in literally every instance here, injected himself into the outcome, and is far more to blame for the degree this takes away from Osaka than Serena. Anyone that cites to the coach's admission that he was coaching just isn't taking into account his whole interview, or the realities of tennis. That was remarkably tame in comparison to what other coaches do during matches, and its NEVER called. And unless a player physically assaults a chair umpire, you just don't give entire games away in the final of a grand slam. Giving the umpire/referee the ability to straight up award points takes away from the legitimacy of any sport, and the chair umpire shouldn't have been so eager to do so.

I agree with this 100%.

Chris Evert said she believes Serena should have been given a warning before the game penalty, and she also felt that men, in general, get longer leashes with things like "racquet abuse."

I think Chris Evert knows a thing or two about all of this stuff.

[Benny B]

Question: If Serena's opponent hadn't been another minority would racism be in this mix with sexism?

I’m not googling, but I’m sure someone’s whining somewhere about racism in this incident. 

Besides, is the chair umpire not a minority, himself?

[mu_hilltopper]

Help me out here .. so the first incident, the ump gives Williams a *warning* for coaching from the sidelines.  Yes?   Besides counting as a warning, is there any other effect?  Lost point or something?

Also .. besides not enforcing the rule, could the ump have done something less?

[GGGG]

I’m not googling, but I’m sure someone’s whining somewhere about racism in this incident. 

Besides, is the chair umpire not a minority, himself?

Because minorities can’t be racist???

Regardless I don’t think it was sexism. I think it was just a bad time to call things by the book.

[GGGG]

Help me out here .. so the first incident, the ump gives Williams a *warning* for coaching from the sidelines.  Yes?   Besides counting as a warning, is there any other effect?  Lost point or something?

Also .. besides not enforcing the rule, could the ump have done something less?

Yes.  The umpire could have told Williams to calm down otherwise he was going to punish her a game.

[forgetful]

Yes.  The umpire could have told Williams to calm down otherwise he was going to punish her a game.

It's not like she simply went up to him and was immediately punished a game. 

She berated him and he let it slide, possibly warned her to calm down. 

She then game back and during the entire break, continuously berated him again. 

The game punishment was well deserved.

[mu_hilltopper]

Yes.  The umpire could have told Williams to calm down otherwise he was going to punish her a game.

Maybe I wasn't clear .. I was talking about the first warning about coaching.   (The ump wouldn't have needed to tell her to calm down prior to that ..)

So, same q, could the ump have done anything else besides non-enforcement?  Something less than a warning.  Like, a non-warning warning.

[rocket surgeon]

Ok, it’s not racism, then it’s got to be sexism, but no.  Then if it’s not sexism, it’s got to be something ‘ism...my-my, where we have come with so much diversity.  Why can’t we just accept the decisions being made as , o.k. My bad.  We all do this to some degree, in the heat of the moment, but then, what has become fewer and further between, admitting our biases or short comings.  Not a good example for the youngsters

The $17,000 fine had to be the last straw though, eyn’a? 

[GGGG]

Ok, it’s not racism, then it’s got to be sexism, but no.  Then if it’s not sexism, it’s got to be something ‘ism...my-my, where we have come with so much diversity.  Why can’t we just accept the decisions being made as , o.k. My bad.  We all do this to some degree, in the heat of the moment, but then, what has become fewer and further between, admitting our biases or short comings.  Not a good example for the youngsters

I doubt many youngsters were watching.

At least she didn't shave her head.

[Lennys Tap]

I doubt many youngsters were watching.

At least she didn't shave her head.

Now that's funny.

[Pakuni]

Besides, is the chair umpire not a minority, himself?

He's Portuguese.

[MU82]

I doubt many youngsters were watching.

At least she didn't shave her head.

Made me laugh.

As for the youngsters ...

Even if they were watching, that's a good thing, the proverbial "teachable moment."

People used to rail at Brady or Tiger being caught cursing by TV mikes, saying, "What about our kids?" Well, what about them? Adults swear. Adults whine. Use these examples as opportunities to talk with your kids about what the adults might have done differently and why you hold your kids to higher standards.

And yes, the situation with Serena could have had elements of sexism in it ... even if people who often try to pretend that "isms" don't exist would rather say otherwise.

[forgetful]

I agree with this 100%.

Chris Evert said she believes Serena should have been given a warning before the game penalty, and she also felt that men, in general, get longer leashes with things like "racquet abuse."

I think Chris Evert knows a thing or two about all of this stuff.

Chris Evert also said that there was no sexism here, that Ramos is known for being a stickler for the rules and treats men the same as women in that regard. 

"But he has not been hesitant to penalize men. Ramos gave Murray a code violation during the 2016 Olympics after Murray accused him of “stupid umpiring.”

“No sexist issue there,” said Chris Evert, the former world No. 1, on Sunday. “His history with men players shows that.” "

From

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/09/sports/tennis/serena-williams-umpire-carlos-ramos-us-open.html

[MU82]

Chris Evert also said that there was no sexism here, that Ramos is known for being a stickler for the rules and treats men the same as women in that regard. 

"But he has not been hesitant to penalize men. Ramos gave Murray a code violation during the 2016 Olympics after Murray accused him of “stupid umpiring.”

“No sexist issue there,” said Chris Evert, the former world No. 1, on Sunday. “His history with men players shows that.” "

From

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/09/sports/tennis/serena-williams-umpire-carlos-ramos-us-open.html

Thanks, forgetful. I thought I had heard otherwise during her commentary afterward on ESPN, but I fully allow that I could be wrong. I was not trying to deceive.

She did definitely say that the umpire should have found a way to give Serena a warning before assessing the game penalty. That I remember.

Also in that NYT piece you linked:

Katrina Adams, the president of the United States Tennis Association, defended Williams in an interview with ESPN on Sunday.

“I would say last night is unfortunate,” she said. “We have to have consistency, because when you look at what the women, in this case Serena, is feeling, we watch the guys do this all the time. They are badgering the chair umpires on the changeover. Nothing happens.”

[Its DJOver]

Katrina Adams, the president of the United States Tennis Association, defended Williams in an interview with ESPN on Sunday.

“I would say last night is unfortunate,” she said. “We have to have consistency, because when you look at what the women, in this case Serena, is feeling, we watch the guys do this all the time. They are badgering the chair umpires on the changeover. Nothing happens.”

I'm not sure I would read too much into that.  The President of the USTA kinda has to back Serena.  She's been the face of US tennis for a while now.  If one of the "Big 4" of men's tennis was an American, and the identity of US tennis was male, it might be different, but as long as Serena is American tennis, she'll get backed by the USTA every time.

[forgetful]

Thanks, forgetful. I thought I had heard otherwise during her commentary afterward on ESPN, but I fully allow that I could be wrong. I was not trying to deceive.

She did definitely say that the umpire should have found a way to give Serena a warning before assessing the game penalty. That I remember.

Also in that NYT piece you linked:

Katrina Adams, the president of the United States Tennis Association, defended Williams in an interview with ESPN on Sunday.

“I would say last night is unfortunate,” she said. “We have to have consistency, because when you look at what the women, in this case Serena, is feeling, we watch the guys do this all the time. They are badgering the chair umpires on the changeover. Nothing happens.”

Didn't intend on suggesting you were trying to deceive.  Just adding more to the commentary.  I have no doubt that she said something along the lines you describe. 

The question then is was it sexism.  I think it clearly was not, and Evert apparently agrees. 

Now whether men are allowed to do this by other umpires, no idea, but those other umpires are not involved in this instance. 

A bigger question to me is: What are we trying to say, that women should be able to verbally assault line judges more, because men have?  Maybe this umpire has it right...hold them all accountable, which we should be celebrating not attacking him as sexist.

[dsfire]

Help me out here .. so the first incident, the ump gives Williams a *warning* for coaching from the sidelines.  Yes?   Besides counting as a warning, is there any other effect?  Lost point or something?

Also .. besides not enforcing the rule, could the ump have done something less?

The coaching, racket abuse and verbal abuse called against Serena are all in a category called Code of Conduct violations, basically unsportsmanlike conduct.  Once the chair umpire has called the violation, he has no discretion on the penalty - there's a schedule that assesses a warning for the first, a point penalty for the second and a game penalty for any thereafter (plus the referee, the chair's supervisor, can disqualify the player once it gets to that point).  It's incredibly common to see warnings, point penalties are uncommon but I've seen them assessed before, and I don't think I've ever seen a game penalty called before... but that's because players know they're on thin ice at that point.

I'm not sure why Ramos called the coaching violation - it's a weird call, especially on that stage.  However, Serena's not the first player to have a weird violation called against her and the unraveling from there is mostly on her.  Ramos probably could've also warned her that she was close to getting a verbal abuse violation and game penalty, but he wasn't out of line to call it when he did.

[Its DJOver]

A good hypothetical to think about.  If the roles had been reversed.  Osaka got penalized and Serena won.  Would the headlines be about possible sexism or racism, or would they be about how a 20 year old, in her first Grand Slam Final didn't have the mental toughness to overcome some difficult calls?

Between this and the excuses made for her after her Wimbledon loss, I think the media is just instinctively getting behind Serena, trying to spin some story that really isn't there. 

[MU82]

A good hypothetical to think about.  If the roles had been reversed.  Osaka got penalized and Serena won.  Would the headlines be about possible sexism or racism, or would they be about how a 20 year old, in her first Grand Slam Final didn't have the mental toughness to overcome some difficult calls?

Between this and the excuses made for her after her Wimbledon loss, I think the media is just instinctively getting behind Serena, trying to spin some story that really isn't there.

Interesting take.

I was extremely impressed with Osaka.

[StillAWarrior]

Since I know that you've all been waiting patiently for my take...

For some reason, this ump inserted himself into the match with an early warning on coaching that was apparently fairly unusual.  I will admit that I don't watch a ton of tennis, so I'm merely going by what various talking heads were saying about the warning.  I have no idea if he had said anything earlier before giving the initial warning (a "pre-warning" if you will).  At least one in this thread said, "my guess is" that there had been multiple complaints and the ump was watching for it.  I'll assume that this is, as stated, a guess.  In any event, this started the entire affair.

Then, when Serena smashed her racked, he really had little choice but to call the violation and penalize her.  As I understand it, he had to penalize her a point because of the earlier warning.

And obviously, this set Serena off.  While I completely understand why she was pissed, she should have controlled herself and saved it for the post-match presser.  Ultimately, that's on her.  Who knows, if she'd kept her cool, it might have been following a victory (although I seriously doubt it -- Osaka played a great match and almost certainly would have won anyway).

But, in my opinion, the ump shares some of the blame.  In that setting, I think he should have had a slower trigger finger with the first warning.  Then, having issued the warning, I think he should have had a slower trigger finger on the "verbal abuse" penalty.  Honestly, I view it much like I view how NBA officials handle technical fouls.  Often after giving an early T, they'll let players get away with a little more after that to avoid the second technical and ejection.

All that said, Serena was in a position to avoid this.  Just like the player with the first technical, get your crap together and don't give the ref/ump an opportunity to penalize you further.  You can blame the umps/refs all you want, but once you realize how they're calling the match, you gotta make adjustments.

And it was an absolute shame that Osaka's great moment was tainted by this mess.  I felt really bad for her.  She played a great match and should have been basking in the glory of her accomplishment.

[Benny B]

He's Portuguese.

[MU82]

Since I know that you've all been waiting patiently for my take...

For some reason, this ump inserted himself into the match with an early warning on coaching that was apparently fairly unusual.  I will admit that I don't watch a ton of tennis, so I'm merely going by what various talking heads were saying about the warning.  I have no idea if he had said anything earlier before giving the initial warning (a "pre-warning" if you will).  At least one in this thread said, "my guess is" that there had been multiple complaints and the ump was watching for it.  I'll assume that this is, as stated, a guess.  In any event, this started the entire affair.

Then, when Serena smashed her racked, he really had little choice but to call the violation and penalize her.  As I understand it, he had to penalize her a point because of the earlier warning.

And obviously, this set Serena off.  While I completely understand why she was pissed, she should have controlled herself and saved it for the post-match presser.  Ultimately, that's on her.  Who knows, if she'd kept her cool, it might have been following a victory (although I seriously doubt it -- Osaka played a great match and almost certainly would have won anyway).

But, in my opinion, the ump shares some of the blame.  In that setting, I think he should have had a slower trigger finger with the first warning.  Then, having issued the warning, I think he should have had a slower trigger finger on the "verbal abuse" penalty.  Honestly, I view it much like I view how NBA officials handle technical fouls.  Often after giving an early T, they'll let players get away with a little more after that to avoid the second technical and ejection.

All that said, Serena was in a position to avoid this.  Just like the player with the first technical, get your crap together and don't give the ref/ump an opportunity to penalize you further.  You can blame the umps/refs all you want, but once you realize how they're calling the match, you gotta make adjustments.

And it was an absolute shame that Osaka's great moment was tainted by this mess.  I felt really bad for her.  She played a great match and should have been basking in the glory of her accomplishment.

Had I known you would offer such a reasonable take, I would have been waiting patiently just for it!

[mu_hilltopper]

Are Women Penalized More Than Men in Tennis? Data Says No

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/14/sports/tennis-fines-men-women.html

TL;DR .. more men do more bad things, called plenty often.

[MU82]

Are Women Penalized More Than Men in Tennis? Data Says No

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/14/sports/tennis-fines-men-women.html

TL;DR .. more men do more bad things, called plenty often.

Interesting. Thanks for posting.