Yep, I'm starting another generational thread

[dgies9156]

A couple of thoughts:

1) I'm a boomer. Everytime I get angry at some goofy thing a Millennial does, my Boomer and well-grounded wife looks at me and says, "do you remember when you were their age?" After I tell her I prefer not to, she reminds we did the same things they did!

2) In case of you don't believe me, just remember the boomer slogan, "Don't trust anyone over 30!" I don't think a Millennial ever said that.

3) As to opportunity, income gaps and opportunity, may I suggest that many Millennials were like us in that we all wanted instant gratification. If we weren't in executive leadership by age 30, our lives were a failure. If we did not have a 3,500 square foot home with granite, large yards, exquisite trims etc., we failed. None of these matter in the long run, for in the long-rum, we're all dead.

A few weeks ago, my wife and I celebrated our wedding anniversary (my wife and I have been married a long time). In looking at our faces the day we were married, we looked so young and so, well, naive. What I would tell young Dgies (relatively fresh out of Marquette) is the same thing I would tell my Millennial friends -- be patient and take life as it comes. You'll get there!

There are systematic problems in our country and in our economy. It isn't pretty and what's happened to many in manufacturing/industry has been sad. But each generation's knowledge grows almost geometrically and I have no doubt that what the 1980s-1990s tech boom was to we Boomers, something out there will do the same thing for our Millennial children and grandchildren.

Again, be patient.

[MU82]

A couple of thoughts:

1) I'm a boomer. Everytime I get angry at some goofy thing a Millennial does, my Boomer and well-grounded wife looks at me and says, "do you remember when you were their age?" After I tell her I prefer not to, she reminds we did the same things they did!

2) In case of you don't believe me, just remember the boomer slogan, "Don't trust anyone over 30!" I don't think a Millennial ever said that.

3) As to opportunity, income gaps and opportunity, may I suggest that many Millennials were like us in that we all wanted instant gratification. If we weren't in executive leadership by age 30, our lives were a failure. If we did not have a 3,500 square foot home with granite, large yards, exquisite trims etc., we failed. None of these matter in the long run, for in the long-rum, we're all dead.

A few weeks ago, my wife and I celebrated our wedding anniversary (my wife and I have been married a long time). In looking at our faces the day we were married, we looked so young and so, well, naive. What I would tell young Dgies (relatively fresh out of Marquette) is the same thing I would tell my Millennial friends -- be patient and take life as it comes. You'll get there!

There are systematic problems in our country and in our economy. It isn't pretty and what's happened to many in manufacturing/industry has been sad. But each generation's knowledge grows almost geometrically and I have no doubt that what the 1980s-1990s tech boom was to we Boomers, something out there will do the same thing for our Millennial children and grandchildren.

Again, be patient.

Superbly stated, my fellow Boomer!

[dgies9156]

mu03eng - My 2 cents to answer your question on the libertarian vitriol.

I'm in the Sultan camp on this.  But a few reasons:

• 3.

Economics - See Kansas.  They went full Libertarian and they are now the most f'd up state in the Union.  We have big issues in Connecticut, but at least we are not Kansas.
[/list]

(I know I'm missing a few points on this too.)

Kansas is a well-governed state compared to Illinois!

In fact, in a country that has Illinois for a state, Kansas and Connecticut don't even register as "watch list" problems.

When your public pension deficit reaches $200 billion, call us! You can then join the Illinois Club.

When you don't have a budget for three years, or when the speaker of your general assembly has been in place almost every year since 1979 because of a corrupt property tax appeals system in your largest county, you'll be nominated for the Illinois Club.

When 80,000 people a year with high-paying jobs flee your state because of confiscatory property taxes, corrupt spending and bureaucratic ignorance of basic economics, you too can join the Illinois Club.

[WarriorDad]

Kansas is a well-governed state compared to Illinois!

In fact, in a country that has Illinois for a state, Kansas and Connecticut don't even register as "watch list" problems.

When your public pension deficit reaches $200 billion, call us! You can then join the Illinois Club.

When you don't have a budget for three years, or when the speaker of your general assembly has been in place almost every year since 1979 because of a corrupt property tax appeals system in your largest county, you'll be nominated for the Illinois Club.

When 80,000 people a year with high-paying jobs flee your state because of confiscatory property taxes, corrupt spending and bureaucratic ignorance of basic economics, you too can join the Illinois Club.

All of this.  Our state is a wreck.  700K net exodus of citizens, debt as far as the eye can see and total dysfunction.  We have been the poster child for corruption for as long as I can remember.[/list]

[Babybluejeans]

The difference is this: In only a few years, Brownback is doing in Kansas what took Illinois politicians decades - leading the state into financial ruin. At least some tech bros would approve of his unintentional "fail fast" approach.

[naginiF]

Kansas is a well-governed state compared to Illinois!

That's a lot like saying "Himmler was a good citizen compared to Hitler!".  Kansas is bankrupt, maybe not the extent IL is but you can't argue their budget management/financial policies are anything but crap and that it happened in a hurry.  Add to that the non fiscal policy gems like overt voter suppression, anti LGBT sentiment, etc and it's not place anyone is calling a destination.  It's population is growing but barely and the projections are for very low growth - most of which is attributed to KC.[/list]

[dgies9156]

That's a lot like saying "Himmler was a good citizen compared to Hitler!".  Kansas is bankrupt, maybe not the extent IL is but you can't argue their budget management/financial policies are anything but crap and that it happened in a hurry.  Add to that the non fiscal policy gems like overt voter suppression, anti LGBT sentiment, etc and it's not place anyone is calling a destination.  It's population is growing but barely and the projections are for very low growth - most of which is attributed to KC.[/list]

Here's the difference. Kansas is important and the people who live there matter as people and, importantly, as Americans. I agree they deserve better and while I'm somewhat conservative, as you can tell, I believe the basic concept of government protecting its people. But as a national economic force and priority, Kansas is far less an issue than either Illinois or Connecticut.

Illinois is more than a local or even regional disaster. It is and will be at the center of commerce and industry. Chicago, sorry to say Milwaukeeans, drives the Midwest economy. The financial hub of our region; the creative and technological hub; the transportation center; and, the center of our natural resources in the Midwest is Chicago. To the extent that Chicago and Illinois fail, the fallout will be felt all over the region and likely all over the nation.

With Illinois' central location, natural resources, outstanding educational system and well-educated work force, the state should be driving the national economy. Chicago is an extremely desirable place to live and it is doing well with Millennials. But the state is broke and at some point, it has to be asked whether the banks and investment firms will continue to lend to a state that cannot repay its debts. It's not a partisan thing and those of us who have lived in Illinois for any length of time know that both the Republicans and the Democrats -- liberals and conservatives -- had a nasty hand in where the state is today.

At some point, the federal government has but two choices in Illinois. The first is to assume the debt/obligations and the responsibility for payment. Do that and you have six to 10 more states standing right behind Illinois waiting for the same treatment. There will be 40 to 44 more states that managed themselves fiscally soundly who will demand and probably get very confiscatory terms for the state bailout.

If you ignore the need to make whole on most of the state's obligations, guess what -- you will inevitably be paying it out in public assistance, food stamps or other social services aimed at Illinois public employees who now have no retirement (and no Social Security).

The second is to do something that has not been done since 1865. Essentially seize the state of Illinois and reconstruct it from the ground up. Readmit Illinois to the union after the state has enacted fiscally sound policies and procedures and after its constitution has safeguards to ensure the financial abuse of its citizenry never happens again.

[jesmu84]

Here's the difference. Kansas is important and the people who live there matter as people and, importantly, as Americans. I agree they deserve better and while I'm somewhat conservative, as you can tell, I believe the basic concept of government protecting its people. But as a national economic force and priority, Kansas is far less an issue than either Illinois or Connecticut.

Illinois is more than a local or even regional disaster. It is and will be at the center of commerce and industry. Chicago, sorry to say Milwaukeeans, drives the Midwest economy. The financial hub of our region; the creative and technological hub; the transportation center; and, the center of our natural resources in the Midwest is Chicago. To the extent that Chicago and Illinois fail, the fallout will be felt all over the region and likely all over the nation.

With Illinois' central location, natural resources, outstanding educational system and well-educated work force, the state should be driving the national economy. Chicago is an extremely desirable place to live and it is doing well with Millennials. But the state is broke and at some point, it has to be asked whether the banks and investment firms will continue to lend to a state that cannot repay its debts. It's not a partisan thing and those of us who have lived in Illinois for any length of time know that both the Republicans and the Democrats -- liberals and conservatives -- had a nasty hand in where the state is today.

At some point, the federal government has but two choices in Illinois. The first is to assume the debt/obligations and the responsibility for payment. Do that and you have six to 10 more states standing right behind Illinois waiting for the same treatment. There will be 40 to 44 more states that managed themselves fiscally soundly who will demand and probably get very confiscatory terms for the state bailout.

If you ignore the need to make whole on most of the state's obligations, guess what -- you will inevitably be paying it out in public assistance, food stamps or other social services aimed at Illinois public employees who now have no retirement (and no Social Security).

The second is to do something that has not been done since 1865. Essentially seize the state of Illinois and reconstruct it from the ground up. Readmit Illinois to the union after the state has enacted fiscally sound policies and procedures and after its constitution has safeguards to ensure the financial abuse of its citizenry never happens again.

IMO, illinois has proved that government corruption is bad. But, as well, kansas has proved that the "ideal" conservative/libertarian tax policy doesn't work either.

Taxpayers in both states suffer for what powerful/special interests want.[/list]

[Herman Cain]

That's a lot like saying "Himmler was a good citizen compared to Hitler!".  Kansas is bankrupt, maybe not the extent IL is but you can't argue their budget management/financial policies are anything but crap and that it happened in a hurry.  Add to that the non fiscal policy gems like overt voter suppression, anti LGBT sentiment, etc and it's not place anyone is calling a destination.  It's population is growing but barely and the projections are for very low growth - most of which is attributed to KC.[/list]

My company is a significant player in Kansas and prospering there. Do not believe what you read. The state is doing very well and has a bright future.

[jesmu84]

My company is a significant player in Kansas and prospering there. Do not believe what you read. The state is doing very well and has a bright future.

If you're judging on the state's latest tax plan, then you're head-in-the-sand wrong[/list]

[naginiF]

My company is a significant player in Kansas and prospering there. Do not believe what you read. The state is doing very well and has a bright future.

i literally live 2 blocks from the kansas state line...it is not what i read it is what I see and hear.  The people in Mission Hills KS (those not associated with Pay Day Loans) completely disagree with you.  Assuming you are really a 'significant' player you must know people in Mission Hills and you know that it is where 99% of the wealth in KS is outside of the Koch brothers.  As jesmu said, you're head-in-the-sand wrong

Next time you are in Kansas doing your "significant player' business, let me know and i'll buy you lunch.  [/list]

[mu03eng]

IMO, illinois has proved that government corruption is bad. But, as well, kansas has proved that the "ideal" conservative/libertarian tax policy doesn't work either.

Taxpayers in both states suffer for what powerful/special interests want.[/list]

My only objection is characterizing the Kansas "approach" as libertarian, it is out right cronyism with a healthy dose of right wing social engineering thrown in. It's what happens when the government tries to interfer from a right wing perspective

[TSmith34, Inc.]

My only objection is characterizing the Kansas "approach" as libertarian, it is out right cronyism with a healthy dose of right wing social engineering thrown in. It's what happens when the government tries to interfer from a right wing perspective

Yeah, I would agree Kansas' approach under Brownback wasn't libertarian at all, it was proudly and loudly trickle down taken to the extreme.   And it did exactly what it was intended to do.[/list]

[WarriorDad]

IMO, illinois has proved that government corruption is bad. But, as well, kansas has proved that the "ideal" conservative/libertarian tax policy doesn't work either.

Taxpayers in both states suffer for what powerful/special interests want.

There are examples from both sides that have gone far off the rails.  Nothing is truly ideal because there are macro and micro inputs that cannot be controlled.  Trickle down has failed in some places, worked in others.  Keynesian examples that have failed in some places, worked in others.  Both sides holding up the failed examples and ignore the successful ones of the other side.

[D'Lo Brown]

We all realize that "trickle down economics" is a joke... Right? I mean, I know a few of us on here play an extraordinarily wealthy person on an internet message board (go you). But reality is that trickle-down economics redistributes money, and therefore power, away from us commoners (the type of people that spend time on a 2000's-style internet forum, myself included) and towards the top 1%. And, predominantly the top 10% of that 1%, at least in the way that our country likes to do it.

I mean, in the most recent episode of Trickle-Down Economics, most people didn't even know it was occurring. Just so long as there is a good enough distractor at the same time/in the same bill, it will keep happening. To be clear, this is a "ratchet"-type policy, where it will be nearly impossible to return to even a halfway reasonable effective tax rate on the uber-wealthy because they have consolidated power even further and will not allow their position to worsen. The state of things is only going to continue to improve for the uber-wealthy; it is a positive feedback loop. I'm not a historian (many of you may have studied history at MU) but, it's fairly obvious what has occurred since "Trickle-Down Economics" was introduced as a rational theory. It dramatically altered the course of US history, and not for the better.

[jesmu84]

There are examples from both sides that have gone far off the rails.  Nothing is truly ideal because there are macro and micro inputs that cannot be controlled.  Trickle down has failed in some places, worked in others.  Keynesian examples that have failed in some places, worked in others.  Both sides holding up the failed examples and ignore the successful ones of the other side.

Where has trickle down worked?

[Benny B]

We all realize that "trickle down economics" is a joke... Right? I mean, I know a few of us on here play an extraordinarily wealthy person on an internet message board (go you). But reality is that trickle-down economics redistributes money, and therefore power, away from us commoners (the type of people that spend time on a 2000's-style internet forum, myself included) and towards the top 1%. And, predominantly the top 10% of that 1%, at least in the way that our country likes to do it.

I mean, in the most recent episode of Trickle-Down Economics, most people didn't even know it was occurring. Just so long as there is a good enough distractor at the same time/in the same bill, it will keep happening. To be clear, this is a "ratchet"-type policy, where it will be nearly impossible to return to even a halfway reasonable effective tax rate on the uber-wealthy because they have consolidated power even further and will not allow their position to worsen. The state of things is only going to continue to improve for the uber-wealthy; it is a positive feedback loop. I'm not a historian (many of you may have studied history at MU) but, it's fairly obvious what has occurred since "Trickle-Down Economics" was introduced as a rational theory. It dramatically altered the course of US history, and not for the better.

Trickle-Down is illogical in an age where Walmart has unequivocally proven that everything trickles up.

[D'Lo Brown]

Trickle-Down is illogical in an age where Walmart has unequivocally proven that everything trickles up.

And apparently trickle-up economics is also a thing - but apparently is seen in a positive light. It has more to do with the fact that a more productive/prosperous middle class will lead to benefits for the wealthy. Which, should always be true, I think. It appears that the policies related to trickle-up economics simply focus on improving the lot of the middle class and assume those changes will make the wealthy even more prosperous.

You never hear stories about the oppression of the uber-wealthy, their lack of opportunities, etc. Yet somehow, policy always seems to have them in mind, regardless of any facade on said policy.

[Billy Hoyle]

My company is a significant player in Kansas and prospering there. Do not believe what you read. The state is doing very well and has a bright future.

I'm really beginning to love this shtick. I used to roll my eyes but throughout this thread and the McAdams thread, it's obvious it's like The Onion. [/list]

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I'm really beginning to love this shtick. I used to roll my eyes but throughout this thread and the McAdams thread, it's obvious it's like The Onion. [/list]

What, you think the guy that claims to do everything, know everyone, and be everywhere is perhaps a complete fraud? 

[Benny B]

What, you think the guy that claims to do everything, know everyone, and be everywhere is perhaps a complete fraud?

Yeah... that’s pretty much every regular Scooper.  Could you be a little more specific?

[Jay Bee]

That’ll learn ‘em!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.amp.html

[Benny B]

That’ll learn ‘em!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.amp.html

I truly hate how the word "assimilation" has come to invoke feelings of something sinister.  Assimilation is supposed to be about creating, growing and improving society, not loss of freedom, dignity, civil liberty or self-worth.  Unfortunately, I believe it was the third reich who coined using the former to justify the latter, and so today the popular reaction is a knee-jerk to oppose assimilation at all costs, something that seems like a good idea until the established society (read: not people) starts to push back, thereby forcing a perpetuation of the aforementioned connotation.

And in a day and age where everything is highly politicized, you're either pro-assimilation or anti-assimilation, both of which carry dire consequences.  And if you believe that the answer lies somewhere in the middle, the pervasive "with us or against us" mentality means you're hated by all.

Dichotomy kills democracy.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I truly hate how the word "assimilation" has come to invoke feelings of something sinister.  Assimilation is supposed to be about creating, growing and improving society, not loss of freedom, dignity, civil liberty or self-worth.  Unfortunately, I believe it was the third reich who coined using the former to justify the latter, and so today the popular reaction is a knee-jerk to oppose assimilation at all costs, something that seems like a good idea until the established society (read: not people) starts to push back, thereby forcing a perpetuation of the aforementioned connotation.

And in a day and age where everything is highly politicized, you're either pro-assimilation or anti-assimilation, both of which carry dire consequences.  And if you believe that the answer lies somewhere in the middle, the pervasive "with us or against us" mentality means you're hated by all.

Dichotomy kills democracy.

I have transitioned to "social osmosis" myself.

[Herman Cain]

What, you think the guy that claims to do everything, know everyone, and be everywhere is perhaps a complete fraud?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz46mb839fs[/list]