Does MU have a long wait list?

[Trust The Process]

Does MU have a waitlist or is this WSJ article below from a couple of weeks ago only relevant for top tier schools? Given MU's very high acceptance rate I would tend to doubt it but was curious if anyone had any thoughts on this. The direction MU seems to be going in by letting in almost everyone who applies seems very puzzling to me, and I suspect that will damage the brand over time. I'm originally from the Philadelphia area and realize that college status and prestige is something that people out here tend to place greater emphasis on than folks in the midwest, but a decent number of students from Philly attended when I was a student not too long ago and I would like that to continue. If MU stays on the same path, I don't think it will because many students will be turned off by their approach. It would be nice for MU to become a school where students are eager to get off a long waitlist and be offerered a place in the class but they have a way to go obviously. Thoughts?

Did Your Kid Get Placed On a College Wait List? Don't Hold Your Breath

The chance of getting off the wait list has plummeted at many schools as the pool has expanded

Liam Tormey, a senior at Valley Stream South High School in New York, applied to 15 colleges. Four rejected him. Four accepted him.

The remaining seven put the 17-year-old on their wait lists—a rapidly growing admissions limbo from which few students escape.

"I thought for sure, after getting wait list after wait list, that something was wrong with my application," said Mr. Tormey, who thought he would get into more schools than he did.

As hundreds of thousands of high-school seniors face a May 1 deadline to put down deposits at their college of choice, many still face uncertainty over where they will end up. Their futures are clouded by the schools' use of wait lists to make sure they have the right number, and type, of students come fall.

The University of Virginia increased the number of applicants invited onto wait lists by 68% between 2015 and 2017. At Lehigh University, that figure rose by 54%. And at Ohio State University, it more than tripled.

At some schools, the chance of getting off the wait list has plummeted as the pool has expanded. For the fall 2012 entering class, the University of California, Berkeley admitted 66% of the 161 applicants that were wait listed. Last year, only 27% of the 7,459 applicants on the wait list were ultimately admitted.

With high-school students applying to more colleges these days, schools have a tougher time predicting how many admitted students will actually enroll. Too few students can lead to financial trouble. Too many means overcrowded dorms and classrooms.

Some schools are locking in more students through binding early-decision offers. They are also keeping a deeper bench of backups to whom they can turn if, come the deposit deadline, they are still short of enrollment targets or don't have quite the right mix of students. Wait-listed applicants usually accept admission offers, allowing schools to control enrollment numbers.

"It's an admission dean's dream. You see where you are on May 1, then you round out the class by going to the wait list," said Michael Steidel, dean of admission at Carnegie Mellon University.

That school, with a target of 1,550 freshmen, offered wait-list spots to just over 5,000 applicants this year.

"You can take stock and 'fix' or refine the class by gender, income, geography, major or other variables," said Jon Reider, director of college counseling at San Francisco University High School. "A large waiting list gives you greater flexibility in filling these gaps."

This year, applications to Carnegie Mellon rose 19%. With more students accepting its offers of admission, it couldn't risk over-enrolling. The school admitted 500 fewer students and expects to go to some of its wait lists to make sure each undergraduate program meets enrollment goals, and that there is a good mix of students, including enough aspiring English majors or kids from South Dakota. The school can also take into account the financial situations of wait-listed candidates.

Berkeley spokeswoman Janet Gilmore said rising out-of-state tuition and competition from other colleges courting California students have caused uncertainty over how many accepted students will enroll, so more conservative offers for regular admission and reliance on the wait list offers flexibility.

Between fall 2015 and fall 2016, the latest year available, the average number of students offered spots on wait lists increased by 11% and the number admitted from those lists jumped 31%, according to the National Association for College Admission Counseling.

But there is a backlash to the surging numbers of students offered spots on the lists.

"It is cruel and keeps FAR too many students hanging on with unrealistic hopes of being accepted," Cristiana Quinn, an admission consultant in Rhode Island, wrote last month in an open letter posted to an email list for the college-admission association.

Joseph Humphrey, an 18-year-old senior at Homewood-Flossmoor High School near Chicago, called his wait-listed status at the University of Michigan, Northwestern, Vanderbilt and Notre Dame "college admissions purgatory."

He signed up for all the lists but also put down a deposit to enroll at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, where he was offered a merit scholarship. He said he would definitely attend one of the four if admitted off the wait list but would have to think carefully about the others.

Officials at the University of Oregon determined last year that their wait list—on which spots were offered to roughly 1,000 applicants for a freshman class of nearly 4,000—had gotten out of hand.

"We had moved into this place where students saw it as just kind of a deferred denial," said Roger Thompson, vice president for student services and enrollment management, noting that sometimes only a few dozen students got off the list.

Oregon offered wait-list spots to 134 applicants for the fall 2017 class, ultimately admitting 73. Applications jumped by 20% this year, and the school invited about 300 applicants to join its wait list.
Schools are doing little more than "emotionally stringing the student along" by dangling a wait-list offer, said Whitney Bruce, an admission consultant in Portland, Maine.

She urges clients to "start to fall in love with one of the schools where they were accepted."

Mr. Tormey of Valley Stream South High School didn't want to remain unsettled into the summer months and so decided against putting his name on the wait lists at Boston College and Villanova University, his original top-choice schools.

"I have four schools that I've been admitted to, who want me," he said. He plans to submit a deposit at Providence College in Rhode Island.

[warriorchick]

All I can tell you is that a friend of ours who  is a former National Alumni Award winner had a kid who is an Eagle Scout with good grades and tons of international community service  and  never made it off the waiting list this year. He (meaning the kid) was very disappointed because Marquette was his first choice.

[swoopem]

Bring back FFP. No waitlist needed

[theBabyDavid]

Several Scoopers went through the FFP Meat Grinder. The Goose is an excellent example of how the cleansing waters of FFP purged the stench of high school hijinks.

[swoopem]

I was FFP in the summer of 2006. One of the best summers of my life

[Dr. Blackheart]

Bring back FFP. No waitlist needed

+2018

[BrewCity83]

Bring back FFP. No waitlist needed

Fresh Frozen Plazma?

[#UnleashSean]

Why do so many people care about where they went to undergrad? Like it matters or something?

[GooooMarquette]

I think the waitlists are a function of kids to applying to more schools using the common app, making it harder for schools to predict the incoming class size. This (https://www.nacacnet.org/globalassets/documents/publications/research/soca17_ch1.pdf) indicates that the percentage of kids applying to 7 or more schools was 10% in 1995, 17% in 2005, and 36% in 2015. That's almost quadrupling in 20 years.

That puts schools in a tough bind. They don't want to accept everyone who meets their basic criteria for fear of getting too many students. And they don't want to reject too many for fear that more than expected go elsewhere. Solution - keep students hopeful but not committed by waitlisting them.

Back in 1980 I applied to three schools, and my friends thought that was a lot. I probably would only have applied to two, but I considered running track and I wasn't quite good enough for MU, so I applied to a small liberal arts college.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Seven still seems like a lot. I applied to 3, all early action.

Had some backups just incase but got into all three schools by early December so never even bothered.

[GooooMarquette]

Seven still seems like a lot. I applied to 3, all early action.

Had some backups just incase but got into all three schools by early December so never even bothered.

I think some of it also relates the types of schools they're applying to.

My first daughter shot very high (a couple of Ivies and comparably competitive schools), so she ended up applying to 10...and got waitlisted at 3 or 4. She ended up deciding pretty quickly because of a nice scholarship offer, so we never found out if any of the waitlists would have panned out.

Her friends who applied to really selective schools did the same thing, while those who went less selective didn't.

She even had a friend who applied to one school - U of Illinois. It was both parents' alma maters, she knew she'd get in, and even got a full ride. Turned out well for her, as she now has a pretty sweet gig with Google and no student loans.

[rocket surgeon]

I was FFP in the summer of 2006. One of the best summers of my life

my oldest son was in FFP-4 years post-grad, he was a district manager for a top 5 bank in our region earning well into the 6 figures.  now, 8 years post-grad he was enticed to join a competitor and they upped his salary by 40%. any more of this, i'm gonna be axking my kid for a loan
just saying, the application process numbers don't always tell the whole story.  just like in athletics, it's difficult to read what's in a kid's(young adult's) heart

[Goose]

thebabyDavid

I might not be the best FFP example, but I am major supporter of the program. My family had three generations of FFP's and my son was the final class. Very proud of being part of the program.

[Goose]

rocket

Great stuff on your son. My son, the FFP, will be completing hie second degree (finance) from UWM in a couple of weeks. He graduated MU with a marketing degree in four years and decided he wanted to get into finance after graduation. He has worked full time and attended UWM for evening and online classes. Very proud of what he has accomplished. Maybe your son can hire him:)

[Silkk the Shaka]

Several Scoopers went through the FFP Meat Grinder. The Goose is an excellent example of how the cleansing waters of FFP purged the stench of high school hijinks.

Keefe?

[theBabyDavid]

Keefe?

Puh-leeze.

theBabyDavid is but 10 months old and his momma is a young, beautiful, intelligent A-Lister. Why would she 'settle' for an old grounded dude who drools from one side of his mouth while rehashing 'there I was' tales from another century between sips of cheap scotch?

[Goose]

theBabyDavid appears to be too sharp to be Keefe.

[Disco Hippie]

Thanks for Posting Process!  I read this article on my commute the day it was published.  I think your gut about this being mostly an issue for Top Tier schools is correct.   MU is somewhat different than a lot of schools in that all of their colleges are direct entry instead of applying to the University as whole first and then applying to an individual college after Freshman or Sophomore year like most schools.  I don't know for sure but my hunch is that MU's more competitive programs like Nursing and PT and maybe engineering probably do have wait lists, but generally speaking MU just isn't the type of institution where students are going to be desperate to get off of a wait list to the same extent as their Northeastern brethren like a Gtown or BC for example.   MU is more akin to let's say Providence where one of the students profiled in the article ended up enrolling.

Like you, I'm both originally from and currently reside in the Northeast (NYC area) so I'm very familiar with what high school seniors and their parents are like around April 15th when the exclusive schools announce their decisions, how it's the talk of the various towns, etc, but MU isn't in the northeast and for the most part doesn't cater to that constituency.  They have have rolling admissions and generally let students know within 2 or 3 weeks  after they apply which is not something most schools in the Northeast do.  They let everyone wait until April to maintain this air of exclusivity and mystery which I personally think is not really fair so I actually like MU's rolling admissions approach.

That said, I definitely share you concerns about MU's extremely high acceptance rate and there's no doubt in my mind that will be a turn off to many students in this region.  Thankfully you and I are not the only ones with that POV, and I can assure you the MU administration has received substantial negative feedback on their high acceptance rate not only from alums, but from current and prospective students as well so they're not radically changing their approach but definitely pivoting on that.  You can't have an 89% acceptance rate as they did last year, and 84% the year prior and not have the brand take a hit. 

If you look at the attached PDF from MU's OIRA website, Figures 1 and 2 on page 3 are really telling.  All of these other schools have almost double the number of applicants, a much lower acceptance rate, and still have a yield that's several percentage points higher than ours.   To say that we don't stack up well to the peer institutions MU administrators hand picked to be compared with is a massive understatement, so hopefully they'll make some adjustments to rectify this. 

[GGGG]

That said, I definitely share you concerns about MU's extremely high acceptance rate and there's no doubt in my mind that will be a turn off to many students in this region.  Thankfully you and I are not the only ones with that POV, and I can assure you the MU administration has received substantial negative feedback on their high acceptance rate not only from alums, but from current and prospective students as well so they're not radically changing their approach but definitely pivoting on that.  You can't have an 89% acceptance rate as they did last year, and 84% the year prior and not have the brand take a hit. 

Those people are idiots.  Students and alumni alike.

[Billy Hoyle]

what's the difference between "wait list' and "deferred decision?" My sister was a "deferred decision" to her top choice college, which meant having to submit her first semester HS grades, which got her in.  I was a "deferred decision" to my top choice grad school, which meant "we'll see who else applies first, then decide on your fate."

[warriorchick]

Those people are idiots.  Students and alumni alike.

+2,000

It is my understanding that Marquette met its enrollment targets this year and then some, and without lowering actual qualitative measures like grades and test scores.

It would not surprise me if Marquette did not admit a single person off of their wait list.

Folks that turned their nose up at Marquette because of the acceptance rate can go eff themselves.  Have fun at your more "exclusive" school.  I am sure you will fit in better there, anyway.

[theBabyDavid]

+2,000

It is my understanding that Marquette met its enrollment targets this year and then some, and without lowering actual qualitative measures like grades and test scores.

It would not surprise me if Marquette did not admit a single person off of their wait list.

Folks that turned their nose up at Marquette because of the acceptance rate can go eff themselves.  Have fun at your more "exclusive" school.  I am sure you will fit in better there, anyway.

A club that let's everyone in isn't much of a club. If everyone knows the secret handshake it isn't a secret. Standards are important. Thresholds matter.

[Silkk the Shaka]

A club that let's everyone in isn't much of a club. If everyone knows the secret handshake it isn't a secret. Standards are important. Thresholds matter.

Sounds like a Harvard/Michigan mentality...

[Billy Hoyle]

A club that let's everyone in isn't much of a club. If everyone knows the secret handshake it isn't a secret. Standards are important. Thresholds matter.

agree 100%.  MU's acceptance rate is too high. US News has MU's Fall 2016 acceptance rate at 74%. That's way too high. Of our peer institutions, SLU is at 65%, Loyola at 73%, Creighton at 71% and Xavier at 64%. I understand that unlike state and "elite" schools that most people who apply to MU are in the core of the admission profile but still, to move up on the rankings we need to be more selective. They should aim to be below around 50%.  This isn't like the 90's when MU was struggling to attract and retain students, closed East Hall and had to lower standards.  After the Final Four MU capped the entering class at 1800, why the increase?

Higher admission standards equals a higher quality of education too.

[GGGG]

A club that let's everyone in isn't much of a club. If everyone knows the secret handshake it isn't a secret. Standards are important. Thresholds matter.

Thresholds most definitely matter. But thresholds based on quality academic criteria is what actually matters. Thresholds based on how many people ask to join your club don't matter one bit.

Not to mention that Disco Hippie keeps advocating for a type of admissions process that is a wasteful use of time and money.