Expectations

[brewcity77]

brewcity

I was a top tier PG I would love to play alongside Howard. Zero idea on how Howard makes it difficult to land a top level PG. Howard is NOT a PG.

He's definitely more a SG right now, but my guess is the basketball traditionalists look at our roster and figure "he's 5'10" so he must be their PG", not to mention Traci transferring because he felt Markus would end up as Marquette's all time leading scorer.

Other than Grimes and Hagans, most of the guards they've recruited to play alongside Howard seem to be combo guards, so they may still at him as a PG (I agree he isn't yet, though he has started improving that skillset).

The best indicator will be in a month when we dip into the grad transfer waters. I don't see how any top tier grad transfer PG wouldn't see this as a great situation, and further display to 2019 targets like Hagans and Carton that playing alongside Howard is a great opportunity, but we'll see.

The promise for next year is there, but the staff still has to turn that promise into proof.

[lawdog77]

First, good thread. I know you've had frustrations but have always been rational about the pros and cons. As someone that always looks for a silver lining, I like being able to discuss this with people who aren't constant doom and gloom.

Next year is absolutely rubber meets the road time. I think two recruiting wins hurt Wojo in team construction. The first was Henry Ellenson. You don't pass on a McDonald's All American and certain NBA first round pick when you're trying to rebuild, but that may well have cost us future depth in Gabe Levin and Steve Taylor and star power in Kyle Washington. Maybe those guys still go elsewhere, but Henry certainly impacted their decisions.

The second was Markus Howard. Again, how do you pass on a sharpshooting point guard that is one of the leaders on a gold medal U-18 Team USA squad and would've likely been an All American had he not graduated early? I think the staff had to take Markus, but they already had Rowsey on the roster. Does it become harder to land future guards like Jordan Poole, Terrance Lewis, Noah Locke, Torrence Watson, or Quentin Grimes when we've already seen one starting point guard in Traci Carter transfer while citing Howard as a reason for his transfer?

Are those excuses, self-made roadblocks, or simple mismanagement? I don't know. But on paper, next year should be the one where the defense improves and the team rises up the league. Until we see the results, the jury remains out.

I agree on the Ellenson example but disagree on the Howard example, for two reasons. It's up to the coaching staff to get the Rowsey Howard chemistry to work. Secondly, how about saying taking Rowsey was the issue...Two years versus 4. Having Howard from Day 1 at the point may have developed his PG skills quicker

[tower912]

Crean could never recruit a PG while Yogi was at IU.    If an elite PG thinks Markus is a PG, he isn't coming. 

[Marcus92]

Like it or not, the first 4 years of a coach's career are no way to measure his future success.

Building a winning program takes time. It took Jay Wright, John Calipari, Coach K, Roy Williams, Jim Boeheim, Dean Smith, Bobby Knight and Al McGuire a decade or more to win it all. Several of those coaches had losing records early in their tenures, and most didn't make the NCAA tournament until at least Year 4.

Wojo worked alongside Coach K, the winningest coach in the history of the sport, on national championship and gold medal Olympic teams. He appears to be an ideal fit for the university and administration. Program outsiders rave about him. He and his staff have upgraded the talent level and forged an elite offense — good enough to make the NCAAs in Year 3. Even this season, the team finished a single game out of 3rd place in the conference.

But progress has felt slow and steady at best for fans accustomed to deep postseason runs. The defensive shortcomings are shocking, bordering on inexplicable. Some even find Wojo lacking in personality, especially contrasted with Buzz's many eccentricities.

So does Wojo measure up to Al McGuire or Jay Wright? Certainly not, as of right now.

Will he eventually? Few coaches do. Again, however, no one can say for certain.

I get that fans are impatient. I know I am. Nonetheless, if your idea of success is previous coaches like Al or successful coaches at other programs, history suggests that patience is warranted. The next 12 months should answer a lot of questions about where the program stands under Wojo, and where it's headed.

[brewcity77]

I agree on the Ellenson example but disagree on the Howard example, for two reasons. It's up to the coaching staff to get the Rowsey Howard chemistry to work. Secondly, how about saying taking Rowsey was the issue...Two years versus 4. Having Howard from Day 1 at the point may have developed his PG skills quicker

Except Rowsey had been here for a year when Howard committed. Rowsey committed in May 2015. Stan Johnson joined Marquette a week later. Howard reclassified and committed in April 2016. What should they have done, ran Rowsey off after he sat out a year?

[Goose]

brew

Traci left because he was not skilled enough to be a starting PG on BE program. He can spin it any way he wants, he was not a high level D1 PG. I respected his decision to leave the program and wished him well.

[Its DJOver]

Agree with Goose, there was not a lot of potential in Traci's game.  Made the best decision for himself, hope he continues to have success.

[skianth16]

Crean could never recruit a PG while Yogi was at IU.    If an elite PG thinks Markus is a PG, he isn't coming.

But don't you think guys tend to do a little research on the roster before they commit? Anyone who's seen any Marquette tape knows that Markus isn't a PG. There's no way a recruit just scans the roster, sees a short guy, and just assumes he's running point. Plus, I would imagine that in Wojo's pitch, he makes that pretty darn clear. I know Crean's experience at IU is brought up a lot, but I have a feeling that was more of a fluke than a common trend.

[MomofMUltiples]

brew

Traci left because he was not skilled enough to be a starting PG on BE program. He can spin it any way he wants, he was not a high level D1 PG. I respected his decision to leave the program and wished him well.

And I believe this has been part of the issue.  As Wojo's recruiting classes have improved,some of the less talented players in previous classes have chosen to seek playing time elsewhere.  Not one of them transferred to a high major program.  In addition, the need to fill in with grad transfers and with Henry staying only a year, we have had more new recruits (four this year) who have kept the team young.

I believe if we can find a top quality grad transfer point guard, kids in the 19 class will see how this team operates with Markus as the 2 guard and will be open to coming and building the program at Marquette.

[esotericmindguy]

brew

Traci left because he was not skilled enough to be a starting PG on BE program. He can spin it any way he wants, he was not a high level D1 PG. I respected his decision to leave the program and wished him well.

And there inlies the problem with MU and other programs similar in stature....they can’t get role players to stay. Kids want to go to a different school and start. Can’t blame them, I would want to play as well. Especially if you don’t think winning a championship or final four is doable. Hopefully Sacar and Cain stick around,they will both be accepting smaller roles next year.

For the record, I think Marcus will be a good PG. He’s told to score for this team, he’s good enough to adjust with a balanced roster. Elliot can barely dribble up court without temporarily losing the ball, and that’s with his strong hand! They do need a backup or someone to play alongside Marcus.

[Goose]

Mom

IMO the recent class is not high level recruiting. Not one of the three guys would transfer and play at high level program. They were given a ton of opportunity on an NIT team and showed some glimpses, but not dreams of potential numbers for the fans. At this point, the three freshmen are slightly more upside Traci Carter's.

Before any one bashes that, please take the time and re-read your praise of "The engine" his freshmen year. Many were excited about four years of "The Engine" running show at MU. I was not one of them.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Mom

IMO the recent class is not high level recruiting. Not one of the three guys would transfer and play at high level program. They were given a ton of opportunity on an NIT team and showed some glimpses, but not dreams of potential numbers for the fans. At this point, the three freshmen are slightly more upside Traci Carter's.

Before any one bashes that, please take the time and re-read your praise of "The engine" his freshmen year. Many were excited about four years of "The Engine" running show at MU. I was not one of them.

The current frosh class is a post-epiphany Jay Wright-style class. High upside guys that fit a need and play within the system. Need guys like that for depth and deep tourney runs. The additional surrounding high end talent comes in next year (Hauser & Morrow).

[bilsu]

Really comes down to defensive scheme. We are outside the top 150 in defense per Pomeroy which is pathetic.

Having to play two diminutive guards and a lack of a shot blocker down low... sure that is a large part of it.

However, if you look at some of the defensive teams above us some of them have a real lack of athletic talent and also a dearth of height.  Yet they are better defensively.

Expectations will continue to be met or disappoint until the defensive scheme improves.

We were bad defensively for two reasons. Starting two small guards and the fact that our bigmen have very
little ability to rotate defensively. Heldt is very good defensive player when being back down by an offensive player, but he is only average in defensive rotations. John is bad in defensive rotations and Froling is pathetic. Hauser is oaky, but Villanova players last night were just faking and driving by him. Playing defense has a lot to do with feet and we have bigmen with bad feet.

Our current bigmen are not going to have better foot speed next year, so better defense will have to come from the newcomers.

[Goose]

ellenson

The three freshmen were given a lot of opportunities to earn more playing time and build for the future. I remember the first Xavier game and saying to my wife, Cain making those three point shots was the worst thing that could happen to him. Highlight of his season was making several shots he should not have taken in the first place.

On that note, if I were Wojo, the next time Hauser, Cain or someone else sat in the Jordan pose after taking a three I would bench them for the game. I really like Hauser, but he has not followed a shot this season. Cain should be benched for taking the shot and benched for two games for the Jordan pose.

[MomofMUltiples]

Goose,

You might have noted that I said the talent level of Wojo's classes has improved, not that they were high-major recruits.  There are two ways to get high-major players, you recruit them or you develop them.  Wisconsin has taken the development route and had some success - because Bo Ryan could develop players.  Duke and Kentucky just reload every year from the top 10 high school basketball player factory.  I doubt that we will ever get to visit that factory on a regular basis.  I believe Wojo has identified some talent and now we see how the development goes.  I think it's looked promising with Sacar (that dunk, tho!), and we will see if Elliot and Cain can put on 15-20 pounds of muscle this year and build on their quickness and length.  The progress is much slower than visiting the factory every year and picking out your new models.  I'd like to give Wojo a chance to get there.  The alternative - replacing him with a mid-major coach or another experienced assistent - means starting again at square one.

[GGGG]

ellenson

The three freshmen were given a lot of opportunities to earn more playing time and build for the future. I remember the first Xavier game and saying to my wife, Cain making those three point shots was the worst thing that could happen to him. Highlight of his season was making several shots he should not have taken in the first place.

On that note, if I were Wojo, the next time Hauser, Cain or someone else sat in the Jordan pose after taking a three I would bench them for the game. I really like Hauser, but he has not followed a shot this season. Cain should be benched for taking the shot and benched for two games for the Jordan pose.

Does Wojo want guys to follow their shot?  A lot of coaches don't emphasize it because an offensive rebound is a less likely outcome than getting caught short-handed the other way.

[Goose]

sultan

As slow as Hauser is, I would be fine if he ran to halfcourt after the shot. The pose needs to go, IMO. Want to hold a pose for game winner at the buzzer...knock your socks off, otherwise, look for something positive to do post shot.

[GGGG]

I guess I have never seen it as a problem. 

[CTWarrior]

Does Wojo want guys to follow their shot?  A lot of coaches don't emphasize it because an offensive rebound is a less likely outcome than getting caught short-handed the other way.

Good point, I noticed the exaggerated follow-through and pose after a miss against Creighton where the rebound went right to where he would have been had he followed up, but you may be right that that one rebound may come at the cost of a few breakouts for the other team.

[BM1090]

I do find it interesting that some people think the recruiting has been great and the coaching mediocre. While others think the recruit level we're bringing in isn't high enough, which must mean the coaching is very good based on the results.

[Goose]

CTWarrior

Unless Sam gets a halfcourt lead, he is not stopping a breakout. The shot you referenced stood out to me as well. I am not buying Sultan's argument, but he might be right. That said, take your arm down and get in position to make a basketball play.

[Its DJOver]

I think the follow your shot thing has been more obvious with Sam the last two days, because he doesn't seem to be getting the same lift that he usually does.  His shots have been right on line, just a little short (possibly because of his hip).  Overall I think everybody needs to follow their shot more, as good as we are offensively we would be much better with a couple extra offensive boards a game, and offensive boards often lead to great looks from 3.

[Goose]

Cain has made six 3 pointers in his life and poses like he is Jordan. Flat out, he would get his ass chewed out and bench time if I were Wojo.

[GGGG]

Cain has made six 3 pointers in his life and poses like he is Jordan. Flat out, he would get his ass chewed out and bench time if I were Wojo.

Well good thing you aren't because you are overreacting a tad.

[mug644]

ellenson

The three freshmen were given a lot of opportunities to earn more playing time and build for the future. I remember the first Xavier game and saying to my wife, Cain making those three point shots was the worst thing that could happen to him. Highlight of his season was making several shots he should not have taken in the first place.

On that note, if I were Wojo, the next time Hauser, Cain or someone else sat in the Jordan pose after taking a three I would bench them for the game. I really like Hauser, but he has not followed a shot this season. Cain should be benched for taking the shot and benched for two games for the Jordan pose.

I don't recall my thoughts at the time of those makes (except for, maybe, "Yes!!), but another take on that was that they built his confidence and helped him realize that he can indeed play at this level. I don't see that he's become a chucker as a result of those makes, but he became engaged and a valuable part of the team. His threes really seem to be in the flow of the game, and I'm not uncomfortable with them. The pose I don't like, but there can be a fine line between a good follow through and a Jordan pose.