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Author Topic: I place this all on the coaching staff.  (Read 39662 times)

GGGG

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #75 on: February 11, 2018, 03:16:37 PM »
Last year Chris Collins was national finalist for coach of the year.  This year they aren't doing great, but I'll bet MU fans last year were going crazy for him as a coach.
Brey has done a great job at Notre Dame
ASU's coach getting them back into the conversation

Agree with you that coaching under different systems is a good thing to learn different styles that work.

Marquette picked 7th by the coaches and media.  Looks like we will finish 7th so why are people surprised? We are young and lack size. That changes next year.  Size and experience are eligible next season.




Bobby Hurley never coached under Coach K.  He coached under his brother and that's it.

Floorslapper

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #76 on: February 11, 2018, 03:17:55 PM »
I honestly don't understand the Rowsey offensive hate here. His assist rate is 26.2% and his turnover rate is only 16.9%.  Compare this Junior's senior year with a 28.3% AR and a 25.8% turnover rate.  Is it because people do not like a shooting PG? Maybe it's his high usage? 

As it stands today, his leaving means MU has a big gaping hole to fill on offense. Come on...MU has had the 8th and 14th ranked offense (this year) since he has been active.  That says a lot especially with only three scorers on the roster this year.

Wojo has his work cut out trying to plug that hole.

Agree entirely.  Having 3 lethal shooters on the floor challenges a defense tremendously.  All of Sam, Markus, and Andrew make the game easier for the other offensively.  Andrew is a great talent, and makes us a much better team. 

Joey Hauser may be able to come in and shoot well, but he will not be able to break down defenses off the dribble, nor will he have an assist rate in the 20s. 

NickelDimer

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #77 on: February 11, 2018, 03:20:25 PM »


I know I shouldn't judge prior to 5 years on the job, but I've seen enough championship ball to form an opinion and I'm pretty sure we are now just spinning our wheels with this guy.
Totally agree. I get that he gets a 5th year in large part because of the incoming class, but I have no false hope that he can be a great head coach. If that were the case we’d have strong indications by now
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Knight Commission

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #78 on: February 11, 2018, 03:28:33 PM »
Totally agree. I get that he gets a 5th year in large part because of the incoming class, but I have no false hope that he can be a great head coach. If that were the case we’d have strong indications by now

I think 90 percent of us on here believe he has potential to level set this program (whether through recruiting, program investment, head coaching, assistant coaching, etc), given the investment.   Disappointed with this season (below market performance) but optimistic about the next.  He has one more year to finish in the top 32 - (bottom range of our market, given our investment).
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 03:32:28 PM by Knight Commission »

WarriorDad

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #79 on: February 11, 2018, 03:30:03 PM »
4ever

I have said numerous times there was a reason why he was an assistant for some many years. Guys that want to be HC, or talented enough to be found, simply don’t spent a decade and half as second or third fiddle. That was, and is, my biggest reservation about Wojo. I wish I know why he never got a HC prior to MU.
I remember talking with Marotta prior to Shaka turning us down. Marc stated that Doc liked Wojo, and we both were floored hearing that. I have nothing against Wojo, but beginning to believe the job is too big for him.

What did you expect this year that everyone else saw as a NIT team and a finish around 7th or 8th place?  The media and coaches knew it.  Maybe he was an assistant coach because he waited for the right opportunity.  He spent over a decade as an assistant, and this is a problem why?  So did these guys

Tom Izzo
Chris Collins
Buzz Williams
Tom Crean
Matt Painter
Chris Mack
Mike Brey
Ed Cooley
Gregg Marshall
Rick Barnes
Billy Kennedy
Mike White

This is normal.



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brewcity77

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #80 on: February 11, 2018, 03:31:34 PM »
Maybe they should start by beating the basement of the big east today.  That would encourage me that Wojo has Some coaching chops and these kids have what it takes to to be on top.

Certainly, and my hope is that Wojo has the goods, rallies us into the NCAA Tournament this year, and has us competing for a conference title next year and thinking of the Final Four as a realistic goal in 2020 as we look at a strong, deep, balanced roster that can sustain itself for years to come.

If that doesn't happen, an incoming coach in 2019 could do worse than a team that would likely have two top-10 all-time scorers at Marquette (Howard and Hauser), a former 5-star recruit (I imagine Joey would at least stay with Sam for his sophomore year), and while there might be some transfers, a fairly deep roster.

We'd be attractive financially, are in an urban market, and would have a strong team for a new coach to start with. I think the job would be looked at favorably.
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WarriorDad

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #81 on: February 11, 2018, 03:35:29 PM »
Totally agree. I get that he gets a 5th year in large part because of the incoming class, but I have no false hope that he can be a great head coach. If that were the case we’d have strong indications by now

Good thing we didn't hire Tony Bennett and they gave him that 5th year at Virginia

Year 1 no post season
Year 2 no post season
Year 3 NCAA, first round loss
Year 4 NIT

Year 5 NCAA

Currently has team in top 5 in country

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NickelDimer

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #82 on: February 11, 2018, 03:37:55 PM »
Good thing we didn't hire Tony Bennett and they gave him that 5th year at Virginia

Year 1 no post season
Year 2 no post season
Year 3 NCAA, first round loss
Year 4 NIT

Year 5 NCAA

Currently has team in top 5 in country
What does that have to do with Woj? I’m judging Wojos coaching based on Wojos teams at Marquette. Nothing and no one else is relevant to that judgment
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brewcity77

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #83 on: February 11, 2018, 03:37:59 PM »
Good thing we didn't hire Tony Bennett and they gave him that 5th year at Virginia

Year 1 no post season
Year 2 no post season
Year 3 NCAA, first round loss
Year 4 NIT

Year 5 NCAA

Currently has team in top 5 in country

Well...when we were going to hire Tony Bennett, he was at Washington State, not Virginia (2008), but the point that judging a coach prematurely often looks silly in hindsight is absolutely spot on, and why Wojo gets to coach next year no even if we don't win another game until November.
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WarriorDad

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #84 on: February 11, 2018, 03:42:36 PM »
What does that have to do with Woj? I’m judging Wojos coaching based on Wojos teams at Marquette. Nothing and no one else is relevant to that judgment

Bennett's first four years are going to yield the same results as Wojo's.   No NCAA, No NCAA, NCAA, NIT
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NickelDimer

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #85 on: February 11, 2018, 03:44:28 PM »
Bennett's first four years are going to yield the same results as Wojo's.   No NCAA, No NCAA, NCAA, NIT
Right I get the parallels, but it doesn’t change my feelings. My judgment of Wojo’s coaching abilities aren’t solely based on results.
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Goose

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #86 on: February 11, 2018, 03:46:50 PM »
WarriorDad

I am far too lazy to do homework on your list, but my gut says Izzo is the only guy to have been assistant as long as Wojo. Plus he likely was the one of only few guys that stayed at same place the whole time. Again, I said a decade and a half + as second/third fiddle. IMO, big difference staying at one joint for 15+ years, than being a guy chasing his dream and climbing the ladder.



brewcity77

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #87 on: February 11, 2018, 03:58:33 PM »
WarriorDad

I am far too lazy to do homework on your list, but my gut says Izzo is the only guy to have been assistant as long as Wojo. Plus he likely was the one of only few guys that stayed at same place the whole time. Again, I said a decade and a half + as second/third fiddle. IMO, big difference staying at one joint for 15+ years, than being a guy chasing his dream and climbing the ladder.

This is true, but let's not forget Wojo became an assistant at a very young age. He was only 37 when he took the Marquette job, which is by no means unprecedented for a guy to get his first job, but is probably right around average. Off the K tree, Tommy Amaker (32) and Quin Snyder (33) were younger than Wojo when they got their first jobs, Mike Brey (36) and Chris Collins (38) were about the same age, and Johnny Dawkins (44) was older. I think his situation is less common because there aren't many coaches that step into a blue blood assistant job at age 22.
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WarriorDad

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #88 on: February 11, 2018, 04:05:56 PM »
WarriorDad

I am far too lazy to do homework on your list, but my gut says Izzo is the only guy to have been assistant as long as Wojo. Plus he likely was the one of only few guys that stayed at same place the whole time. Again, I said a decade and a half + as second/third fiddle. IMO, big difference staying at one joint for 15+ years, than being a guy chasing his dream and climbing the ladder.

Chris Collins was an assistant at Duke from 2000 to 2013.
Tom Izzo an assistant at Michigan State from 1983 to 1995
I also don't have the time.  Spent more time on MUScoop today that I can possibly fathom.  Ha ha.

Wojo had chances to leave, he chose not to.  This from an article in 2013.

Wojciechowski has been on Duke’s sideline for more than 15 years. He’s had opportunities to become a head coach but has turned them down. One day, however, he won’t.

“I have had chances (to leave), and I want to be a head coach,” he said, “but I have to balance that. I have a special situation here. One, I was able to start coaching at a real young age (22). I started younger than most. I’ve had some amazing experiences at Duke. I think that’ll prepare me when the time comes when I am a head coach.

“I love Duke,” he continued. “I love working for Coach K. But I also want to have my own program. When the time’s right, I’ll know it. And it’ll be right for me. It’ll be right for my wife and my kids. And hopefully when that time comes, I’ll be ready to build my own program that’s similar to the one we have here in terms of having high-character kids – guys who, when they step between the lines, play as hard as they possibly can for each other.

“There’s a few times I’ve been (close to leaving). I think that time is approaching.”
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Goose

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #89 on: February 11, 2018, 04:11:33 PM »
WarriorDad

I have plenty of time today, I stated I was too lazy. Thanks for your recent post, but really explains nothing. In addition, have seen that quote several times. My gut says, no real program had an interest in him.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #90 on: February 11, 2018, 04:46:46 PM »
WarriorDad

I have plenty of time today, I stated I was too lazy. Thanks for your recent post, but really explains nothing. In addition, have seen that quote several times. My gut says, no real program had an interest in him.

I can say with 100% certainty that he was offered the Dayton job in 2011 and he turned it down. They got Archie Miller instead. Whether that counts as a "real program" having interest in him is up to interpretation. He's referenced getting other offers but I have no idea to who and if it was a true offer or if he was just in the process. But I would guess that we were the best program to ever offer him a job....which shouldn't be surprising for a 37 year old career assistant. So the narrative that he was waiting for the right offer does seem to hold up. Whether that is the whole story or not...I have no idea.
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WarriorDad

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #91 on: February 11, 2018, 05:16:08 PM »
WarriorDad

I have plenty of time today, I stated I was too lazy. Thanks for your recent post, but really explains nothing. In addition, have seen that quote several times. My gut says, no real program had an interest in him.

The Duke standard for most of their assistants has been to go to a major program.

Amaker left for a Big Ten job
Dawkins left for a Pac 12 job
Chris Collins left Duke for a Big Ten job
Wojo left for a Big East job
Quinn Snyder left for a Big 12 job


Brey went to a smaller program in Delaware. Capel went to ODU. I'm sure Wojo's peers were telling him to hold out for a major conference job, but it would be surprising if other programs didn't want him.  Besides, what does it matter.  Winthrop took Gregg Marshall.  Does Winthrop count as a real program? Would you like to have Gregg Marshall as our coach?  Does Belmont Abbey count as a real program? We hired Al from their. Coach K was at Army.  Coach Wright at Hofstra. 

Wojo had discussions with Dayton, how serious things got are unknown.  http://aboverim.blogspot.com/2011/04/wojciechowski-removes-name-from-dayton.html
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Floorslapper

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #92 on: February 11, 2018, 05:52:07 PM »
Good thing we didn't hire Tony Bennett and they gave him that 5th year at Virginia

Year 1 no post season
Year 2 no post season
Year 3 NCAA, first round loss
Year 4 NIT

Year 5 NCAA

Currently has team in top 5 in country

Fair point.  But, there is also context to consider.  Tony Bennett came to Virginia with some pedigree/skins on the NCAA tourney wall.  3 Victories in NCAA tournament during his 3 seasons at Washington State University...including a Sweet 16 appearance.

Wojo had no NCAA track record coming to Marquette, so perhaps the patience of our fanbase is a little shorter given that we have no knowledge/proof of Wojo being able to be an NCAA tournament caliber coach.  Granted, he got us there last year, but you could say not fully on his own merit as Luke, JJJ and Duane all were solid contributors to that team.

GGGG

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #93 on: February 11, 2018, 06:03:15 PM »
To be fair Floor, I expected to be further along as well.

It all comes down to next year for me.  If there isn't significant progress next year, I will be on the bandwagon to get a new coach.  He will have an experienced team, deep with the talent he recruited. 

denverMU

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #94 on: February 11, 2018, 06:15:42 PM »
Ok, time to get back on track and finish the discussion using facts from the St. John's game.  Facts....total defensive stands for MU in the 1st half-35--30 man to man and 5 zone. STJ scored on 14 M2M and 1 zone.  So STJ scored 47% of the time MU played M2M and 20% when MU played zone.  Second half, MU had 32 defensive stands, we played M2M 27 times and zone 5 times.  STJ scored on 16 M2M or 59% and they scored 2 out of 5 against the zone or 40%.  Total game STJ scored on 30 out of 57 M2M or 57% and was 3 out of 10 or 30% against MU zone.  Conclusion, why did we play M2M?  MU zone had STJ confused and worked well when used.  Instead, we decided to play M2M with 2 undersized guards.  To Wojo's credit he did put Sacar on Ponds but then we switched and he killed them or that left Rowsey on a much taller guard who killed him.  It seems to me Wojo is not aware of the tried and true definition of INSANITY.  He keeps doing the same thing and expecting a different result.  What is worse is when he does try something different and it works, zone defense, he changes our defense.  Sorry, but I agree this loss was on the coaches.

Mr. Sand-Knit

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #95 on: February 11, 2018, 06:17:54 PM »
When he wasn't on the bench with three fouls in the first half.

The problem I see with this team is that we're a bunch of street-ballers. We toss the ball around looking for the first open guy to fire up from three-land. There is little systematic presence to our offense beyond "find an open 3."

Rowsey -- Not impressed by. Period. Good shot but as a senior, he should be a reasonably complete player. Not even close. May be a thing with me but I think he's an incredibly self-centered ballplayer. Don't see a team aspect of his play.

Howard -- May be the heart and soul of this team, but without a real point guard, he's flailing in the wind too often. He's a good "2" guard and not the point we need to run a championship caliber college offense.

Hauser -- May be the best player on this team, but he's got to do a better job of getting separation. I like where he will be next year. He's as close as we have to the complete package.

Heldt -- For you old-timers, Heldt is a Craig Butrym or Jerry Homan in a Jim Chones/Jerome Whitehead world. He's a 10 minutes a game guy at most. I like his effort but he's a back-up that is designed to rest your starter.

Froeling -- Is a huge disappointment. I guess I expected, mistakenly, a lot more from him that we got. Not sure whether it's he's just not THAT good or it's because we're playing too much hero ball in the back court and we're not finding him.

Sacar -- Going to old timers, Sacar is a Bill Neary type. I like him. I like his heart and his effort. But Neary was good in part because we had BT off the bench. Sacar is a sixth or seventh guy on the team but not, in my mind, a starter on a championship caliber team.

Given this mess we have this year, I'm seeing us build a future around Marcus, Greg Eliott, Sam Hauser, maybe Greg and Theo and, eventually, one of our incomings. I'm optimistic about Ed Morrow but after the Harry Froeling debacle, I want to see it to believe it. Like most folks, I'm optimistic about Joey and I think Bailey will be a gem. But I don't expect immediate change from these guys.

All this said, I give myself a "D" as a fan this year for possibly expecting too much from this team.

I hope Wojo learns to coach defense or finds an addition to his staff who can do it for him (Bo Ellis, are you out there?). If he doesn't find that person or becomes enlightened about college defense, I'm not optimistic about next year -- or the near future for that matter.

Agree in general, however, Ed Morrow has proven himself in a major conference.
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Billy Hoyle

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #96 on: February 11, 2018, 06:23:53 PM »
The Duke standard for most of their assistants has been to go to a major program.

Amaker left for a Big Ten job
Dawkins left for a Pac 12 job
Chris Collins left Duke for a Big Ten job
Wojo left for a Big East job
Quinn Snyder left for a Big 12 job


Brey went to a smaller program in Delaware. Capel went to ODU. I'm sure Wojo's peers were telling him to hold out for a major conference job, but it would be surprising if other programs didn't want him.  Besides, what does it matter.  Winthrop took Gregg Marshall.  Does Winthrop count as a real program? Would you like to have Gregg Marshall as our coach?  Does Belmont Abbey count as a real program? We hired Al from their. Coach K was at Army.  Coach Wright at Hofstra. 

Wojo had discussions with Dayton, how serious things got are unknown.  http://aboverim.blogspot.com/2011/04/wojciechowski-removes-name-from-dayton.html

Amaker left Duke for Seton Hall. Then was fired at Michigan
Dawkins was fired from Stanford
Collins is at a program with zero expectations
Snyder was fired from Missouri (Coach K covered up Snyder’s drug abuse to help him get the job in the first place).

Not great comparisons there.
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Stretchdeltsig

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #97 on: February 11, 2018, 06:26:43 PM »
1SE

My point is that talent can overcome weak caching to some degree. I have my doubts on his ability to coach at this point, but lack of talent does not help the situation.
Disagree.  I think Wojo is a good recruiter.  He has put together the talent that he wants on this team.  The flaw is that he encourages transfers by recruiting better talent and thus loses players like Haniff, Duane, Sandy, Steve, Traci and Jamal making the team perpetually young, without mature leadership.
Obviously, he is not a good coach, evident from the team being unprepared and the defense is terrible. 


Goose

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #98 on: February 11, 2018, 06:44:47 PM »
Stretch

We have a different opinion on what is considered top 20 talent. As a rule, Wojo has brought in guys that would be very good role players on a good team. Talent is nowhere near the level needed to compete at high level.

bilsu

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Re: I place this all on the coaching staff.
« Reply #99 on: February 11, 2018, 07:46:49 PM »
Legit question:

What was Wojo doing sitting next to Coach K from 1999-2014? You would expect some coaching smarts to have permeated his body, at least by osmosis, even if Steve spent half the time sleeping on the job. Maybe some guys are "lifer" assistant coaches and just don't have all the pieces necessary to be a successful head coach on this level. Completely mind boggling that Wojo, as a player, was defensive player of the year.
I think Wojo is still adjusting to coaching non McDonald's all Americans. At Duke you do not need to develop talent. You need to mold them into a team. At MU you need to develop talent, which is totally different.

 

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